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Person_Man
2008-09-17, 04:36 PM
So I was wondering if it was possible to put together a build who focused on Smite, and still had enough leftover class abilities and feats to be otherwise useful. I'm not sure its possible (or reasonable). You'd need 10+ Smite uses per day so that you could use it reliably each round of combat (or at least the first few rounds of every combat). Smite only applies to one attack, not all attacks during a given round. And Smite often has alignment restrictions, which means you can't use it against many common enemies. And any reasonably optimized melee build should be able to kill any one non-boss opponent that he hits with 1 round of melee attacks, so I'm very dubious about adding extra effects (like Daze, Bull Rush, whatever) to what should really be a killing blow.

But who doesn't love a challenge?

Here's what I have so far:

Awesome Smite feat: Whenever you Smite and use Power Attack, you can ignore a certain amount of DR, or knock your enemy Prone, or ignore any miss chance your target might have - although as a tactical feat, you can only do one of these each time you Smite. Not limited to Smite Evil. Comp Champion.

Devoted Inquisitor feat: If you use Smite Evil and Sneak Attack on the same enemy, the enemy must Save or be Dazed (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dazed) for one round. Comp Adventurer. And if you're taking this, you definitely also need to take the Craven feat, which adds +1 damage per character level whenever you deal Sneak Attack damage.

Extra Smiting feat: You gain 2 extra Smite attempts per day. Not limited to Smite Evil. Comp Warrior.

Killoren race: Once per hour (up to your Cha bonus times per day) you can Smite any aberration, construct, humanoid, ooze, outsider, or undead. You also have the Fey type, which opens up some Alter Self shenanigans. Races of the Wild.

Killoren Destroyer feat: When manifesting your Killoren Smite, any foe struck by your attack must Save or be Dazed for 1 round.

Mighty Smiting: +1 magical melee weapon enhancement that gives you a +2 bonus to hit and damage when you Smite, and one extra use of Smite per day.

Charging Smite Paladin variant: When you charge and Smite Evil, you deal an extra 2 damage per Paladin level, and your Smite Evil use isn't used unless you hit. Unfortunately it replaces your Special Mount though, which can easily be a Paladin 20's most powerful class feature. PHB II.

Smiting Power: When you use a Smite during a Bull Rush or Overrun, you gain the To-Hit bonus as a bonus to the Str check, and if you win the opposed check you deal damage to the target equal to the bonus the Smite would grant on a damage roll. Champions of Valor. If you drop Killoren and go with Goliath, Half-Giant, or any other Large race, you can pick up the Knockback feat, which gives you a free Bull Rush attempt whenever you successfully make a melee attack. This would essentially double your Smite damage, which would be considerable if you take the Charging Smite Paladin variant.

Anything that multiplies damage: Lance, Spirited Charge, Rhino Rush, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, high crit weapons, whatever. Smite and Craven damage are both non-dice bonuses, so they are multiplied.

Grey Guard PrC: This 10 level PrC gives up 5 levels of caster progression, and all of your Special Mount progression, but it has 2 interesting powers. First, it allows you to use your Lay on Hands pool (potentially quite big) to deal damage with a touch attack, and Evil creatures get no Save. Second, the Grey Guard gets the ability to use its Smite Evil on any creature, regardless of its alignment. And of course Grey Guard levels stack with Paladin levels to determine your Lay Hands pool and Smite uses and damage. Complete Scoundrel.

Fist of Raziel PrC: Gives 5 Smite Evil attempts over 9 levels. Smites gain somewhat more power as well - notably it allows you to auto-confirm any crit, making Keen falchions or lances more useful. And although this PrC doesn't progress your Special Mount, it does fully progress your Smite damage and casting ability.

Tattooed Monk PrC: The Lion Tattoo gives you a Smite that works on anyone, that you can use # of tattoos per day (5 if you take 9 levels of the PrC). The Bellflower tattoo let's you add you Cha bonus as an enhancement bonus to any ability score (including Cha!) for 1 round per PrC level, # of tattoo times per day. The Chameleon Tattoo let's you use Alter Self # of tattoo times per day, and it lasts 1 hour per class level. The Phoenix Tattoo gives you SR 15+class level (so 24 or 25 at ECL 15ish). Put these together with a couple of Smite feats, and you get a pretty solid build. Maybe Monk 2/Paladin 3/Tattooed Monk 9?

The point of this thread is not to max out damage on a single hit. I already know many ways of doing that, and Smite isn't very optimal at it. The point is that if I wanted to play a Paladin (or Blackguard, or whatever) who has a really excellent Smite that he can reliably depend on, while still maintaining other useful abilities, how would I do it?

I'm open to all suggestions. I'm also sure there are probably plenty of other Smite feats, substitution levels, PrC, spells, or whatever that I'm probably missing. If you know of any, please post them. Thanks.

Chronos
2008-09-17, 05:02 PM
I'm reasonably sure that Extra Smiting and the like apply to all of your smite abilities at once, so a paladin/cleric(destruction) (for instance) would gain an extra two uses of each of his smiting abilities. If so, it might be worthwhile to gain several different sorts of smite attacks, to maximise the benefits of the feat. Gleemax's List of Stuff (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=662842) lists nearly 30 classes that get a smite ability.

For other feats, you might also consider Sapphire Smite (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sapphire_Smite,all) (which increases your number of smites and the damage they do, depending on the amount of essentia invested), and Improved Smiting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Smiting,all) (which makes your weapon count as aligned while smiting and adds 1d6 damage). I found these by searching on dandello's feat index for the word "smite". In addition, Devoted Performer (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Devoted_Performer,all) and Devoted Tracker (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Devoted_Tracker,all) might be useful for multiclassing, to keep your smite bonus up.

RTGoodman
2008-09-17, 05:31 PM
The Crusader has Smite that isn't based on alignment, so you might be able to do something with that. I do believe it gets fewer uses per day than a Paladin, though I'm AFB and can't check it right now. If all (or at least a lot of) the options you listed in the OP work with it though, that might be a good way to go.

Lyndworm
2008-09-17, 06:13 PM
Crusader gets one Smite at 6th level and another at 18th.

Paladin gets one Smite at 1st level and another at 5th and every five levels after that.

Zack

Chronos
2008-09-17, 08:11 PM
Let's see here...

Paladins, Soulborns, Clerics with the destruction domain, and Tattooed Monks each gain a smite ability at level 1. Ordained Champions and Shadowbane Inquisitors each get a smite ability at level 2, and Samurai get a smite ability at level 3. If we put all of those onto the same character, we can pick up seven different smiting abilities by level 11 (though a dip in Unarmed Swordsage will make it easier to qualify for Shadowbane Inquisitor and Tattooed Monk, so call it level 12), all of them clearly distinct, and all of them versatile enough to be useful against most or all enemies. I'm sure there are more smite abilities to pick up, but the only other I can find that's versatile and distinct is Crusader 6, so let's say that you can eventually get eight different smite abilities (or nine, if you take Killoren as your race).

Then, we pick up the Improved Smiting and Sapphire Smite feats, plus enough other incarnum feats to get 4 essentia (all of which you put into your Sapphire Smite). This gives you a total of at least five uses per day of each of your smite abilities, and an extra +4 damage to all of them.

Now, the real trick: There's nothing preventing you from using multiple smites on a single attack. For most opponents, it's probably good enough to use four or five different smites, but where it really counts, you can use all nine of them at once. If I'm counting correctly, if all of the smites are valid, you can get an extra 39+cha mod damage at level 20 from the smites themselves, plus another +36 damage from Sapphire Smite and +9d6 from Improved Smiting, all at an attack rating bonus of +8 +7*Cha mod, which makes it much easier to Power Attack, as well. Power attacking for full, and with a modest Cha mod of +5 or so, that would mean an average of 148 points of extra damage and an extra +25 to the attack.

SoD
2008-09-17, 08:18 PM
There's an alternate class feature from Exemplars of Evil: replacing the smite evil/smite good, instead, you may choose to forgo a smite and instead smite any creature.

Hawriel
2008-09-17, 09:17 PM
If the cruisader class has a non aligned smite it might be a good match up with piose templar. The templare does not have an alignment restriction eather. Add extra smite feats your good.

Project_Mayhem
2008-09-18, 06:40 AM
Aww, I thought this was going to be a hombrewed Power gamer hoser

Lapak
2008-09-18, 10:51 AM
I have to day, Chronos, that would be an interesting build.

"So, what are you again?"

"I'm a divine avenger. I smite those that are considered unholy. :smallannoyed:"

"Sure, but which god do you go avenging for? Tyr? St. Cuthbert? Zeus, maybe?"

"All of them. :smallannoyed:"

jcsw
2008-09-18, 11:08 AM
Let's see here...

Paladins, Soulborns, Clerics with the destruction domain, and Tattooed Monks each gain a smite ability at level 1. Ordained Champions and Shadowbane Inquisitors each get a smite ability at level 2, and Samurai get a smite ability at level 3. If we put all of those onto the same character, we can pick up seven different smiting abilities by level 11 (though a dip in Unarmed Swordsage will make it easier to qualify for Shadowbane Inquisitor and Tattooed Monk, so call it level 12), all of them clearly distinct, and all of them versatile enough to be useful against most or all enemies. I'm sure there are more smite abilities to pick up, but the only other I can find that's versatile and distinct is Crusader 6, so let's say that you can eventually get eight different smite abilities (or nine, if you take Killoren as your race).

Then, we pick up the Improved Smiting and Sapphire Smite feats, plus enough other incarnum feats to get 4 essentia (all of which you put into your Sapphire Smite). This gives you a total of at least five uses per day of each of your smite abilities, and an extra +4 damage to all of them.

Now, the real trick: There's nothing preventing you from using multiple smites on a single attack. For most opponents, it's probably good enough to use four or five different smites, but where it really counts, you can use all nine of them at once. If I'm counting correctly, if all of the smites are valid, you can get an extra 39+cha mod damage at level 20 from the smites themselves, plus another +36 damage from Sapphire Smite and +9d6 from Improved Smiting, all at an attack rating bonus of +8 +7*Cha mod, which makes it much easier to Power Attack, as well. Power attacking for full, and with a modest Cha mod of +5 or so, that would mean an average of 148 points of extra damage and an extra +25 to the attack.

Celestial and Axiomatic templates would give smite evil and smite chaos, respectively, for +1 LA each, they also give some other stuff. I mean, since we're already dipping like mad.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-18, 11:39 AM
I actually just worked out a build that combines Smite and Sneak Attack along with various divine and sneaky feats. Human Fighter 1/ Rogue 1/ Paladin 5/Black Gaurd 6/Human Paragon 3/Black Gaurd 4.

Feats are:
Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Devoted Inquisitor, Razing Strike, Staggering Strike, Combat Brute, Divine Might, Divine Vigor, and Extra Turning.

In the end, you get smite good 6/day (so maybe gray gaurd would be better, unless you're in a strongly evil campaign), but you get reliable use of your sneak attack at 6d6, (even better vs. undead thanks to razing strike), and reliable staggering and dazing effects due to feats. Divine Might gives you a little extra boost when you run out of smiting, and actually DOES last for a full attack. Sundering is useful in a pinch. This build also has the side effect of making you an excellent skill monkey giving you a great outlet for that high CHA. You'll be able to get a good bluff, diplomacy, hide, UMD etc. especially with human paragon. The ability boost guarantees a high CHA. You can sub out Extra Turn for Extra Smite, but I personally thought I'd get more use out of the divine feats because they don't care about alignment and smiting does.

If you really want +20 BAB, you can substitue the rogue level for Sneak Attack Fighter (Unearthed Arcana) but your skills will suffer. In that case, I would replace the Human Paragon levels with more Fighter and Sneak Attack Fighter levels, or more paladin levels. The downside would be delaying black gaurd.

Person_Man
2008-09-18, 11:54 AM
OK, so I just read Ordained Champion. Entry requires:

Alignment: Any lawful, neutral good, or neutral evil.
Skill: Knowledge (religion) 7 ranks (ie, you can enter after level 4)
Feat: Weapon Focus with deity's favored weapon.
Spellcasting: Able to cast magic weapon as a divine spell.
Special: Must worship Hextor or Heironeous.

Here's the second level ability:

Smite (Su): At 2nd level, you can spend one daily use of your turn/rebuke undead ability as a swift action to turn your next melee attack into a smite. You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on attack rolls, and you deal extra damage equal to your total effective turning or rebuking level. Your smite attack is not limited by alignment or race; you can attempt to smite any foe. Except as noted here, this ability functions like the paladin's smite evil ability (PH 44).

So, it now seems quite easy to get 3+ Cha mod Turn/Smite attempts by ECL 6. You can take Extra Turning to add more. I'm pretty sure you can boost your turning level to add damage. You can add Awesome Smite for special effects. If you're Killoren you can add a second Smite on top of it once an hour for more damage.

Now, from there you could head into Fist of Raziel, which just happens to be a knightly order dedicated to smiting evil - so the fluff fits perfectly for a cleric of Heironeous. This gives you 5 Smite Evil attempts, extra powers on your Smite Evil (auto-confirm crits!), full BAB, and 9/10 caster progression. Buy a Wand of Hunter's Mercy (Ranger 1, Spell Comp), and invest in UMD cross class if you need to (your Cha is high enough). Though its a standard action to cast, it makes your next successful attack with a bow automatically threaten a critical. Take the Ranged Smite feat. With Cha*3 as a bonus to hit, you pretty much have a 5% chance of missing (natural 1). Now that we know we can auto-crit with a triple Smite attack, I wonder if there's any other shenanigans we can work in to ensure a kill of even the worst Evil enemy?

Or you could head into a some other PrC that progresses casting and turn undead. It sucks that you could lose 1 or 2 caster levels, but its not that huge of a deal for someone with 18 or 19 BAB.

playswithfire
2008-09-18, 12:27 PM
Take the Ranged Smite feat. With Cha*3 as a bonus to hit, you pretty much have a 5% chance of missing (natural 1). Now that we know we can auto-crit with a triple Smite attack, I wonder if there's any other shenanigans we can work in to ensure a kill of even the worst Evil enemy?


Well, because you can never have enough CHA bonus to hit, if you're a killoren, you probably want to take Charming the Arrow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a), though that may be unnecessary

Chronos
2008-09-18, 01:48 PM
Celestial and Axiomatic templates would give smite evil and smite chaos, respectively, for +1 LA each, they also give some other stuff. I mean, since we're already dipping like mad.I was avoiding Celestial because I thought that the smite ability was the same as the paladin's (and would therefore not kick in Sapphire Smiting again), but looking at it, it's subtly different, in that it doesn't give an attack bonus. And Axiomatic would certainly work, since I don't have any other Smite Chaos in there, though chaotic enemies aren't quite as common as evil ones. Both are also based on total HD, not any particular class, which makes them a lot more useful in a dip-heavy build like this.

On the other hand, Celestial's a +2 LA, not +1, and you might want to double-check Axiomatic. So I only have room to fit one of them into the build, without LA buyoff.

Telonius
2008-09-18, 02:27 PM
Aasimar Paragon (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Aasimar_Paragon_(DnD_Racial_Paragon_Class))gets smite evil 1/day at first level.

Of course that requires you to be an Aasimar (LA+1) and give up a level of caster progression. 3 levels of it and you get CHA +2 (for an additional Turning attempt that you might be able to turn into a Smite, as noted above).

Person_Man
2008-09-18, 02:51 PM
Reading through the Incarnum book, I just noticed something:

Psycarnum Infusion: When you expend your psionic focus, until the start of your next turn one of your soulmelds, incarnum feats, or other incarnum recepticles is treated as if you had essentia invested in it equal to your maximum essentia capacity.

Saphire Smite: At the beginning of each day, you can invest essentia into this feat. You gain an additional smite attempt and +1 damage for each point of essentia invested. You also gain one point of essentia.

So, with Wild Talent and Saphire Smite, a Killoren can easily get 1 free Smite every combat, more if they take the time to re-focus themselves. Any psychic class with psicrystal containment could easily do it twice per combat. And they naturally get up to one per hour, Cha bonus times per day. Not the world's most uber combo, but useful nonetheless. If you Smite and potentially Daze and/or knock Prone the meanest enemy each combat for 2-3 rounds in a row, it'd be pretty huge.

Am I reading that right? Or is it canceled out by the "beginning of each day" thing. I barely understand the Incarnum rules.

Darrin
2008-09-18, 03:20 PM
Am I reading that right? Or is it canceled out by the "beginning of each day" thing. I barely understand the Incarnum rules.

Incarnum feats are a little different from soulmelds in that you can only invest essentia in them every 24 hours. So at the beginning of the day, after you shape your soulmelds, you can invest essentia into your incarnum feats. That essentia stays invested for the rest of the day, unlike most other essentia, which can be redistributed to different soulmelds with a swift action.

If you had both feats, then Psycarnum Infusion would allow you to fill up one of your incarnum feats (such as Sapphire Smite) with temporary essentia for a round if you had decided at the beginning of the day not to invest any points in it. At least, I think that's what it does. If you had already filled Sapphire Smite with the maximum essentia at the beginning of the day, then Psycarnum Infusion wouldn't be all that helpful. It might be handy if you lost some invested essentia after getting attacked with a spell or ability that drains essentia... but I can't imagine that it happens all that often.

I would recommend going through the soulmelds, however... as I recall, there are a bunch of them that grant smite (all alignment-based, I think).

Chronos
2008-09-18, 06:28 PM
I would recommend going through the soulmelds, however... as I recall, there are a bunch of them that grant smite (all alignment-based, I think).I already checked... None of them are particularly useful for smiting. At best, a few of them would be useful for defense. You might be thinking of the Soulborn's Smite Opposition feature, which I'm already using (can affect either of the alignments opposing your own, i.e., Evil or Chaos for a LG soulborn).

Psycarnum Infusion is a good catch, though... Provided that you only need to smite once per encounter, it'd free up a feat. Instead of needing to take Sapphire Smite and three other incarnum feats (or Shape Soulmeld, Bonus Essentia, and one other incarnum feat) to fill it up, you could take Sapphire Smite, Wild Talent, and Psicarnum Infusion.

Thrawn183
2008-09-18, 08:02 PM
So now I'm curious about those threads I seem to remember a while back about sending your turning level through the roof. Lets see if we can find some gear for this fist smiting raziel... thing!

Aquillion
2008-09-18, 09:21 PM
Dammit, I read the title of this thread as "Smite Organization."

Feat: Smite Organization.
Prerequisites: Smite Law class feature (which would normally imply being a Paladin of Chaos, using the appropriate variant rules.)

Your total opposition to any form of order has given you the ability to target your Smite Law ability against entire organizations and hierarchies, not just individuals. Whenever you use your Smite Law ability on anyone who is part of a formal, structured organization, their immediate superior(s) and anyone directly under their command takes the full damage from that attack as well, as long as they are within one mile. When you spend a smite attempt, you may spend as many additional smite attempts as you wish to increase the number of levels in the hierarchy your smite travels through (but this grants no additional damage.)

monty
2008-09-18, 09:27 PM
Heh, I'd make a character based on that.

Person_Man
2008-09-19, 09:51 AM
Dammit, I read the title of this thread as "Smite Organization."

Feat: Smite Organization.

Hmmm. Nifty idea. But it seems a but weird and broken. Assuming that most town guards and soldiers are 1st level, you could easily kill every defender in a large army with one hit.

Maybe this:

Smite Organization:

Pre-req: Ability to Smite, Chaotic Alignment.

Benefits: Once per round when you successfully hit and deal damage with a Smite attack, enemies within 60 feet of your target (including the target itself) must make a Will Save (DC = 10 + total bonus damage from your Smite ability), or become Shaken for 2d6 rounds. If you kill your target with your Smite attack, they instead must Save or become Panicked for 2d6 rounds. This ability only effects enemies with a Lawful alignment, as well as enemies who belong to the same organization as your target. For example, it effects all members of a town guard, military, thieves guild, etc. This is a supernatural mind-effecting fear effect. This ability does not stack with itself, however it does stack with other fear effects when applicable.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-19, 10:07 AM
Hmmm. Nifty idea. But it seems a but weird and broken. Assuming that most town guards and soldiers are 1st level, you could easily kill every defender in a large army with one hit.

Maybe this:

Smite Organization:

Pre-req: Ability to Smite, Chaotic Alignment.

Benefits: Once per round when you successfully hit and deal damage with a Smite attack, enemies within 60 feet of your target (including the target itself) must make a Will Save (DC = 10 + total bonus damage from your Smite ability), or become Shaken for 2d6 rounds. If you kill your target with your Smite attack, they instead must Save or become Panicked for 2d6 rounds. This ability only effects enemies with a Lawful alignment, as well as enemies who belong to the same organization as your target. For example, it effects all members of a town guard, military, thieves guild, etc. This is a supernatural mind-effecting fear effect. This ability does not stack with itself, however it does stack with other fear effects when applicable.

I think it would be something like this:

Smite Organization
Through your interactions with a specific opposing organization, your righteous fury has become focussed on striking members of that organization down.
Prerequisites: Ability to Smite
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose an organization such as the Samsondale Thieves Guild or the Wizards of the Purple Rose. You get a +1 Sacred Bonus to attacks and damage on smite attacks made against members of the chosen organization. Furthermore, you may make smite attacks on members of the chosen organization regardless of their alignment or any other restrictions.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, choose a different organization. Its effects to not stack.

Aquillion
2008-09-19, 03:39 PM
Yeah, yeah. Those are more balanced.

But they're not as cool as "I hit you so hard, your entire organization dies."

Chronos
2008-09-19, 03:51 PM
Benefit: When you take this feat, choose an organization such as the Samsondale Thieves Guild or the Wizards of the Purple Rose. You get a +1 Sacred Bonus to attacks and damage on smite attacks made against members of the chosen organization. Furthermore, you may make smite attacks on members of the chosen organization regardless of their alignment or any other restrictions.Yeah, but that's just smiting individual members of the organization. Much better if you can smite the organization itself.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-19, 04:07 PM
Yeah, but that's just smiting individual members of the organization. Much better if you can smite the organization itself.

Better, yet completely preposterous. When you smite evil you don't smite ALL OF EVIL.

monty
2008-09-19, 04:39 PM
Better, yet completely preposterous. When you smite evil you don't smite ALL OF EVIL.

Who said "all"? When you smite a fiend, you're technically smiting evil, since it has the Evil subtype.

martyboy74
2008-09-19, 06:27 PM
Smite All Evil
When you smite evil, you smite Evil.
Prerequisites: Smite Evil class feature, Charisma 12
Benefit: When you use your Smite Evil class feature, all evil creatures within the same cosmology as you take damage equal to your charisma modifier.

monty
2008-09-19, 06:39 PM
Smite All Evil
When you smite evil, you smite Evil.
Prerequisites: Smite Evil class feature, Charisma 12
Benefit: When you use your Smite Evil class feature, all evil creatures within the same cosmology as you take damage equal to your charisma modifier.

Figure out how to put that on the gestalt character I entered a while ago who can get to about 76 Cha, and you just did 33 damage to every evil thing in the universe. Go you!

Chronos
2008-09-19, 07:11 PM
Except wasn't that character herself, um, evil? Being very undead, and all.

monty
2008-09-19, 08:14 PM
That's (relatively) easily fixed. Sanctify the Wicked from BoED.