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View Full Version : [3.5] Suffocating trolls



Thurbane
2008-09-17, 05:04 PM
Is it possible to suffocate a troll? If you beat it down to negatives, but don't have any fire or acid, can you suffocate it to death?

Kyeudo
2008-09-17, 05:25 PM
As far as I understand, yes. Suffocation and Drowning don't do damage, they just set your hit points to something, so regeneration wouldn't come into play.

Occasional Sage
2008-09-17, 05:27 PM
3x or 4? That would have lots of effect on the answers you get...

AslanCross
2008-09-17, 05:27 PM
Regeneration also
does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

So yes, a troll can starve, get dehydrated, suffocated, or drowned unto death.

Xenogears
2008-09-17, 05:32 PM
So yes, a troll can starve, get dehydrated, suffocated, or drowned unto death.

I still think whoever designed that rule was drunk. A troll can have its lungs ripped out (since they even regenerate from being cut into tiny pieces) and be fine but if he can't breathe (and still has lungs) he suffocates. By that reasoning any troll that is suffocating or drowning should rip out its own lungs in order to be immune to that. The starving and dehydration parts make sense atleast. I mean no fuel no regen is logical.

Starbuck_II
2008-09-17, 05:33 PM
As far as I understand, yes. Suffocation and Drowning don't do damage, they just set your hit points to something, so regeneration wouldn't come into play.

Correct, they set hps to 0.

and they have based on con so many rounds before they die.

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 05:37 PM
I still think whoever designed that rule was drunk. A troll can have its lungs ripped out (since they even regenerate from being cut into tiny pieces) and be fine but if he can't breathe (and still has lungs) he suffocates.

Where it's exactly stated?

It's logical for Troll to just DIE with lungs ripped out.

I'm pretty sure that getting your lungs ripped out counts as death from massive damage. And regenerating creature can die from massive damage (as far as I know), so everything is right.

Kyeudo
2008-09-17, 05:50 PM
I still think whoever designed that rule was drunk. A troll can have its lungs ripped out (since they even regenerate from being cut into tiny pieces) and be fine but if he can't breathe (and still has lungs) he suffocates. By that reasoning any troll that is suffocating or drowning should rip out its own lungs in order to be immune to that. The starving and dehydration parts make sense atleast. I mean no fuel no regen is logical.

While the troll's lungs are still growing back, it won't be able to breathe. If it doesn't grow a new set before it suffocates, it dies and stays that way.

D&D damage is abstract though, so nothing vital goes until you hit -10 hp and then everything goes at once. Ergo, you can't have your lungs cut out in anything but the most specific circumstances.

kjones
2008-09-17, 06:15 PM
D&D damage is abstract though, so nothing vital goes until you hit -10 hp and then everything goes at once. Ergo, you can't have your lungs cut out in anything but the most specific circumstances.

... such as cutting the lungs out of an unconscious troll? Certainly a viable option for a party that's already defeated one, but lacks fire or acid.

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 06:19 PM
... such as cutting the lungs out of an unconscious troll? Certainly a viable option for a party that's already defeated one, but lacks fire or acid.

And it would be made by "coup de grace". Although it's busy and time consuming, compared to just bashing it's skull in.

Not sure if cutting the lungs out would fit under full round action. :smallwink:

Frosty
2008-09-17, 06:19 PM
... such as cutting the lungs out of an unconscious troll? Certainly a viable option for a party that's already defeated one, but lacks fire or acid.

That counts as a Coup-de-Grace.

AslanCross
2008-09-17, 06:20 PM
I still think whoever designed that rule was drunk. A troll can have its lungs ripped out (since they even regenerate from being cut into tiny pieces) and be fine but if he can't breathe (and still has lungs) he suffocates. By that reasoning any troll that is suffocating or drowning should rip out its own lungs in order to be immune to that. The starving and dehydration parts make sense atleast. I mean no fuel no regen is logical.

Well, the fluff of dismembered troll hands regenerating back an entire troll predated the 3.5 rule and if I'm not mistaken appeared in The Crystal Shard. Not sure if it's appeared in other material. Under RAW, however, a troll will still die if it is prevented from breathing in any way.

Also, lungs also provide the body with fuel. Without oxygen, all of our bodily functions shut down quickly (the brain especially) and we die. Since trolls also have to breathe, they can't survive without their lungs (by RAW).

Thurbane
2008-09-17, 06:24 PM
3x or 4? That would have lots of effect on the answers you get...
Sorry, I keep forgetting about 4E :smallbiggrin:

3.5, please...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-17, 06:39 PM
Death from Massive Damage doesn't apply to nonleathal damage, which is the only thing you can deal to a troll unless you use fire or acid. Furthermore, "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage."

I doubt a troll would die by suffocation if you ripped out its lungs, but if you put the disembodied lungs underwater I'd rule that it drowns just to reward creativity.

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 06:47 PM
Death from Massive Damage doesn't apply to nonleathal damage, which is the only thing you can deal to a troll unless you use fire or acid. Furthermore, "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage."

Hmmm, so an assassin (yea, the class, not the archtype) who does a death attack on a troll with a +1 flaming dagger wouldn't be able to kill it, since the dagger is the vehicle of the death attack and does non-lethal damage and the flame is only an incidental d6. An assassin who does a death attack with a Flame Blade (Dru2, PHB, via UMD wand) WOULD be able to insta-gib a troll, provided it failed its save vs death, since all of the damge is considered fire damage which does deal lethal damage. Interesting...

I guess the real question would be, how in the 9 Hells are you gonna sneak up on a troll with a 3 foot pillar of fire extending from your palm? Especially since you have to stalk it for 3 rounds...

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 06:53 PM
That rule seems pointless, as it indeed means that you can't just kill troll with one strike, even if it halves him... Or generally does anything that coup the grace do...

I would rule that Troll (or other Regeneration creatures, probably) can die from massive damage/great attack.

With Trolls Fortitude save, it would happen rather rarely anyway, but would make more sense.

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 07:05 PM
That rule seems pointless, as it indeed means that you can't just kill troll with one strike, even if it halves him... Or generally does anything that coup the grace do...

I would rule that Troll (or other Regeneration creatures, probably) can die from massive damage/great attack.

With Trolls Fortitude save, it would happen rather rarely anyway, but would make more sense.

You are within your right as a DM to rule any way you want. That doesn't make it RAW though. RAW says that trolls regenerate and aren't subject to massive damage or death attacks, so they aren't.

Although the whole suffocate vs regenerate from a finger contradiction is kind of an interesting one...

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 07:14 PM
You are within your right as a DM to rule any way you want. That doesn't make it RAW though. RAW says that trolls regenerate and aren't subject to massive damage or death attacks, so they aren't.


Indeed. Your post with assasin, however was also in the tone of "that is stupid", so I presented my view.



Although the whole suffocate vs regenerate from a finger contradiction is kind of an interesting one...

Where exactly it's stated that they wou'd regenerate from a finger? You can kill them with normal coup de grace, so you probably just cut their spine/mash their head, beacuse I don't think you blend them into huge pulp, suddenly.

So it would seem that they not only don't regerate from, finger, but doing damage that instatnly kill them... instantly kill them.

ericgrau
2008-09-17, 07:21 PM
Per 3.5 fast healing rules, fast healing works like natural healing (but faster) unless specifically mentioned otherwised. Regeneration requires several minutes (I forget how many), or 1 round if the severed limb is held against the stump. Regeneration also causes certain damage to be nonlethal (anything except fire/acid, for trolls). Trolls have fast healing and regeneration. Since nothing else is specifcally mentioned (IIRC), that is all they have.



Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.


Yes, trolls can suffocate. And die of thirst or starvation. Yes, your DM can rule whatever he wants, regardless of what the rules say. But I hate it when people say that in a thread whose purpose is to ask what the rule is.

EDIT (for below):

Well actually...a troll can't starve very easily because he can just eat himself and regen the damage >.>.

Since fast healing is like natural healing, he can't survive by eating himself. It takes more energy and material to grow a limb than what is contained in the limb, as evidenced by waste energy given off as body heat and material given off as poop. Though I suppose you could argue that regeneration creates additional material, the rules don't say one way or the other on that. And the starvation rule within the regeneration rules suggests otherwise, or this "loophole" would have been discovered by every regenerating creature and his grandma long ago.

olelia
2008-09-17, 07:21 PM
So yes, a troll can starve, get dehydrated, suffocated, or drowned unto death.


Well actually...a troll can't starve very easily because he can just eat himself and regen the damage >.>.

tyckspoon
2008-09-17, 07:31 PM
Where exactly it's stated that they wou'd regenerate from a finger? You can kill them with normal coup de grace, so you probably just cut their spine/mash their head, beacuse I don't think you blend them into huge pulp, suddenly.



Regeneration:

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. ...

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

So no, you cannot actually kill a troll with a 'normal' coup de grace, as that is an attack that can cause instant death being delivered by a weapon that does nonlethal damage. All you will achieve is a normal nonlethal critical hit. You can arguably do it with a Flaming or Acidic weapon (and if those qualify, you can also do it with a torch), but the rules provide no way to kill a troll just by chopping at it with a normal sword.

mangosta71
2008-09-17, 07:33 PM
I guess the real question would be, how in the 9 Hells are you gonna sneak up on a troll with a 3 foot pillar of fire extending from your palm? Especially since you have to stalk it for 3 rounds...

By being sneaky. You can hide the flame as long as you aren't subjected to a cavity search. :smalltongue:

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 07:33 PM
So no, you cannot actually kill a troll with a 'normal' coup de grace, as that is an attack that can cause instant death being delivered by a weapon that does nonlethal damage. All you will achieve is a normal nonlethal critical hit. You can arguably do it with a Flaming or Acidic weapon (and if those qualify, you can also do it with a torch), but the rules provide no way to kill a troll just by chopping at it with a normal sword.

Eh...

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)


Since fast healing is like natural healing, he can't survive by eating himself. It takes more energy and material to grow a limb than what is contained in the limb, as evidenced by waste energy given off as body heat and material given off as poop. Though I suppose you could argue that regeneration creates additional material, the rules don't say one way or the other on that. And the starvation rule within the regeneration rules suggests otherwise, or this "loophole" would have been discovered by every regenerating creature and his grandma long ago.

Trolls have fast healing? Their entry isn't saying so.

And regeneration entry states that they can regrow lost portions of their body, not mentioning if it's good from the point of their energetic balance.

So from RAW, they indeed can avoid starvation by eating themselves.

Of course it makes no sense, but rules are stated that way.

tyckspoon
2008-09-17, 07:35 PM
Dude. The sentence right after that. I included it in my quote?

ericgrau
2008-09-17, 07:41 PM
^ What he said.

Ah, the regeneration rules already include healing and trolls do not have "fast healing". That's what happens when I go from memory.

Like I said, while possibly true, saying that regeneration grows additional material would be completely made up, as the rules say nothing on this. The fact that trolls hunt for food strongly suggests otherwise.

olelia
2008-09-17, 07:42 PM
Regeneration:

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. ...

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.


Bolded for convenience

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 07:43 PM
Dude. The sentence right after that. I included it in my quote?

Damn. It would indeed looks so. Why they point out that you can kill Troll with coup the grace, if it actually can be still kill only by flame or acid (no matter if by CdG or not), I don't know.

I'am visibly deluded by Temple of Elemental Evil, where you can kill troll with normal coupe de grace.

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 07:46 PM
Where exactly it's stated that they wou'd regenerate from a finger? You can kill them with normal coup de grace, so you probably just cut their spine/mash their head, beacuse I don't think you blend them into huge pulp, suddenly.

So it would seem that they not only don't regerate from, finger, but doing damage that instatnly kill them... instantly kill them.

Maybe I'm just an old gamer, but many are the stories in books and published modules of trolls growing back from an arm or head or other limb, as long as its the largest surviving body part. I've come up through 4.5 edition worth of trolls and countless fantasy novels, so I might be remembering trolls from a day long past. I'm away from RAW atm, but regardless, you can't CDG a troll and force a fort save vs death unless you use a weapon that'll deal lethal damage, which would have to be a weapon composed completely of flame or acid. That means that a troll will eventually regen through the nonlethal damage from the crit and get up again and try to eat you.

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 07:54 PM
Damn you, Temple of Elemental Evil!

I was under impression that in 3.5, they ended with the "kill it with fire rule", and that killing a Troll in more classic way.
And played 3.5 like that (not that I regret it, but I thought it was OK with SRD) :smallbiggrin:

That means that most of my points were made under assumption not correct from the point of RAW.

Complete nevermind, then.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-17, 07:55 PM
So no, you cannot actually kill a troll with a 'normal' coup de grace, as that is an attack that can cause instant death being delivered by a weapon that does nonlethal damage. All you will achieve is a normal nonlethal critical hit. You can arguably do it with a Flaming or Acidic weapon (and if those qualify, you can also do it with a torch), but the rules provide no way to kill a troll just by chopping at it with a normal sword.
That's not entirely true.

If you deal enough nonlethal damage to it by chopping at it with a normal sword, it'll never get back up on it's own.

See, while it's regenerating a (very, very large) amount of nonlethal damage, it's still unconscious, and so can't go get food or water:

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.If you assume the troll rolls nothing but 20's on it's Con checks, and always rolls 1 on it's damage checks, the stock MM troll will be making checks after 47 hours, and will fail checks after the DC hits 27 (at hour 18 of rolling, total time: 65 hours) taking 1 point of nonlethal damage that isn't helped by Regeneration every hour. 63 hours later (total time: 128 hours) nonlethal damage that isn't subject to Regeneration exceeds the troll's hit points - so it's unconscious until something intervenes (although it'll normally take considerably less time than that, as the d6/hour averages 3.5/hour, and he'll fail some Con checks before the DC 27). All you have to do is deal 5(regeneration rate of a troll)*10 (rounds per minute)*60 (minutes per hour)*128 (hours he needs to be kept down)+64(troll's base hit points, plus 1, to get him unconscious initially)=384,064 points of nonlethal damage. If you can deal that much damage to him, the stock MM troll isn't getting back up without help - assuming a dry dungeon, and a troll-slayer with nothing but a sword to whack at the troll.

tyckspoon
2008-09-17, 08:02 PM
Damn. It would indeed looks so. Why they point out that you can kill Troll with coup the grace, if it actually can be still kill only by flame or acid (no matter if by CdG or not), I don't know.


The rules text is..less than useful in determining this, but this is how I interpret the intent: Once you have managed to beat the creature unconscious- that is, you've already won the fight- you can automatically kill the creature permanently by couping it with an appropriate weapon. This bypasses the normal Fort check, and I do allow any source of fire and/or acid damage to work as an 'appropriate weapon'. So you can finish off a troll with a torch and not have to worry about the fact that you're only doing 4-8 or so damage; essentially, once you have managed to overcome the monster you complete the job by jabbing a flaming stick in its heart/lungs/brain/other vital part.

If you require your attack to do only fire or acid damage, you have a much larger problem, and getting rid of a troll or other regenerater for good needs much bigger resources. Since they're only CR 5, I'm inclined to think the intent was that they could be finished with things a CR 5 party would have readily available.. like a lit torch or two.

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 08:09 PM
If you require your attack to do only fire or acid damage, you have a much larger problem, and getting rid of a troll or other regenerater for good needs much bigger resources. Since they're only CR 5, I'm inclined to think the intent was that they could be finished with things a CR 5 party would have readily available.. like a lit torch or two.

Or reaping it apart so completely, that it would rot before it could gain some strenght again, like Jack_Simth pointed out.

No sane GM would want to count it during the session, though :smallwink:

384,000 would be about 20 hours of mindless hacking the troll, considering average Coup the Grace damage of 30.

8-/

Inhuman Bot
2008-09-17, 08:15 PM
Sorry, I keep forgetting about 4E :smallbiggrin:

3.5, please...

4e? What is this "4e?" :smalltongue:

I agree with the idea of a troll being able to suffocate.

I can't figure out if it makes sense or not, but it seems right.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-17, 08:15 PM
Or reaping it apart so completely, that it would rot before it could gain some strenght again, like Jack_Simth pointed out.

No sane GM would want to count it during the session, though :smallwink:

384,000 would be about 20 hours of mindless hacking the troll, considering average Coup the Grace damage of 30.

8-/

It goes a bit faster if you have everyone in the party chipping in - but yes, it's quite absurd.

What's really fun, though, is that the same principles apply to the big T (it just takes around ten times as much damage).

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 08:31 PM
It goes a bit faster if you have everyone in the party chipping in - but yes, it's quite absurd.

What's really fun, though, is that the same principles apply to the big T (it just takes around ten times as much damage).

Well, if it really can regenerate from the finger, it's not so absurd, as hacking something into parts smaller than fingers with a sword would be really Sisyphean.

It all leaves problems of logical, nature - if it can regenerate from tiny bits, why can it just regenerate it's burned/acided heart? It should be somehow easier than rebuilding oneself from nothing...

Speaking about threads title - by RAW it then seems that putting the troll a bag around the head, and choking it with a string would be good way to kill it.
While removing it's lungs would not.

Now I must give it back to Xenogears - whoever was making those rules could be quite possibly drunk (or assumed that Players would sort it out with logic. But it doesn't justify such untidy rules IMO)

Ascension
2008-09-17, 08:54 PM
I'm away from RAW atm, but regardless, you can't CDG a troll and force a fort save vs death unless you use a weapon that'll deal lethal damage, which would have to be a weapon composed completely of flame or acid. That means that a troll will eventually regen through the nonlethal damage from the crit and get up again and try to eat you.

I think Trollbane would work as well.

From Dungeonscape.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-17, 09:20 PM
Now I must give it back to Xenogears - whoever was making those rules could be quite possibly drunk (or assumed that Players would sort it out with logic. But it doesn't justify such untidy rules IMO)
Yeah, there's a lot of untidy things - like, for instance, that troll you hacked into little itty bitty pieces and left to die of thirst on the dungeon floor?It isn't dead. Thirst and starvation are always nonlethal damage, no matter how long it goes on. It'll die of old age before it'll die of starvation or thirst, by RAW.

Mind you - of necessity, the rules can't be both complete, sensible, and allow things like burying the troll to suffocate it while it regenerates (not that death matters, as the "dead" condition does not carry any drawbacks).

The books are too complex to be complete. Sure, you could complete any one aspect, but by the time you're getting everything, you've got more paper than anyone would reasonably want to read... and there's that pesky theorm that states a set of rules can't be all three of complete, consistent, and non-trivial.

Don't worry too much about not being able to kill a troll with hacking it up with a sword per RAW - it doesn't matter. That's part of what the DM is there for.

Thurbane
2008-09-17, 09:26 PM
The reason this came up is a running joke in my group, that we should carry a pastic bag (or is medieval/fantasy equivalent) around with us to suffocate trolls after beating them unconcious. :smallbiggrin:

Glimbur
2008-09-17, 10:38 PM
(not that death matters, as the "dead" condition does not carry any drawbacks)

Dead does matter. It sets your hp to -10, and even if your nonlethal damage is at 0 that means you have more nonlethal damage than hp, so you're unconscious... unless you're Diehard or have some other similar ability. Not sure what happens then.

Tehnar
2008-09-18, 08:49 AM
Reminds me of one adventure we had a few years ago. The DM threw at us vile (from BoVD) trolls (I think it was a war, some mountain and regular trolls), with some goblin druids for backup. Now the vile template makes you immune to acid, and they had mass resist energy fire on them. And mass burrow. Well mayhem broke loose, but eventually we managed to kill most of them. Unfortunately we were stuck with around 10 trolls that were regenerating, with no way to kill them. My cleric got a bright idea, dragged their bodies on a still active blade barrier spell, dug out a shovel and started digging. After a few hours the graves were dug, the trolls buried, a eulogy was given and the party was on its merry was.