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I iz dapimp
2008-09-17, 06:51 PM
Allright, so i'm running one of my classic campaigns (the name of which can be left out of this), and every time, the campaign gets ruined by big powerful characters, played by the dumbest people i've ever met, or by the people who spend their days memorizing the rulebooks.


I need help to get by the rules without seeming like a total jakass, while being yes, a total jakass


II
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monty
2008-09-17, 06:54 PM
Don't play with dumb people? The point of a game is to have fun, so if idiots are ruining the fun, get rid of them. Taking it out on their characters will only make them angry.

Alternately, Rule 0 them.
"You can't do that."
"Why?"
"Because I said so."

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 06:56 PM
Don't play with dumb people? The point of a game is to have fun, so if idiots are ruining the fun, get rid of them. Taking it out on their characters will only make them angry.

Alternately, Rule 0 them.
"You can't do that."
"Why?"
"Because I said so."


What he said.


If they're really play only to ruin your sessions by stupid loopholes/actual rules, why bother playing with them?

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 06:58 PM
Allright, so i'm running one of my classic campaigns (the name of which can be left out of this), and every time, the campaign gets ruined by big powerful characters, played by the dumbest people i've ever met, or by the people who spend their days memorizing the rulebooks.


I need help to get by the rules without seeming like a total jakass, while being yes, a total jakass


II
(_)

Have you tried civil discourse? That generally works with rational people. If they aren't rational, find rational people to play with, rather than your current group.

Also, as DM, you have final say over materials allowed in your game. Figure out what the lynchpin of their character is, and ban it citing game balance. Its well within your right as DM, most of us do it all the time. I for one don't allow Frenzied Berzerkers or Leap Attack because they are poorly balanced. I also ban some spells on occasion, and Shivering Touch on every occasion. Its your game, take control.

Gralamin
2008-09-17, 06:58 PM
Actually talk to the players and attempt to come to a comprise. Failing that, stop playing with them.

Ent
2008-09-17, 07:07 PM
"Subtle ways to kill overpowered players"

He isn't looking for ways to get rid of characters...

Sinfire Titan
2008-09-17, 07:09 PM
Allright, so i'm running one of my classic campaigns (the name of which can be left out of this), and every time, the campaign gets ruined by big powerful characters, played by the dumbest people i've ever met, or by the people who spend their days memorizing the rulebooks.


I need help to get by the rules without seeming like a total jakass, while being yes, a total jakass


II
(_)

If the character is legal, then the only things you can do are ban the idea or step it up a notch yourself. If you suspect that they are cheating, check everything on their sheet, and ask as many questions as needed to answer everything. If even one of their answers fails to hold up to the Crunch (not the Fluff), then they have cheated.

In order to step up to the plate, you need to read the books more than they do and look for combos.

Hawriel
2008-09-17, 07:12 PM
An assassin working as a bar maid.

Spiryt
2008-09-17, 07:16 PM
"Subtle ways to kill overpowered players"



Ah....

So, see I iz dapimp, that's a bit tricky. When you are killing someone, you are leaving much more tropes that you would think. So that would require dolid consideration, to avoid the punishment.

Poison can be always interesting choice, I think.

Ascension
2008-09-17, 07:16 PM
Give them plenty of warning that the old mine tunnel is unstable.

That way when the rocks fall and everyone dies, you can say it was fully justified.

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 07:18 PM
"Subtle ways to kill overpowered players"

He isn't looking for ways to get rid of characters...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......


Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap!

Jayngfet
2008-09-17, 07:18 PM
Voidshard in the mead. No saving throws, no ressurections, no afterlife.

Riffington
2008-09-17, 07:19 PM
Subtle doesn't work. If you kill them, they'll just make an even more twinked out character since it seems like their character wasn't "tough enough" to survive your campaign.

You have to explain the problem to the players.

Moff Chumley
2008-09-17, 07:29 PM
But PKing is FUN.

Flickerdart
2008-09-17, 07:33 PM
Ikea Tarrasque. I think the lowest it works out is CR 8? Here's the beastie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160). A Lernean Two-Headed Half-Clay Golem template set applied to an Ash Rat swarm makes a creature that cannot be damaged with anything. Ever. All by RAW, all legal. If you want to make it killable, using a Fire Giant for base creature means Disintegrate deals 1d12 damage per casting. Otherwise, it's still unstoppable.

Hawriel
2008-09-17, 08:13 PM
Give them plenty of warning that the old mine tunnel is unstable.

That way when the rocks fall and everyone dies, you can say it was fully justified.

Old D&D adventure actualy had the mine rigged to collapse by the duager that took over and ran the mine. It was written that if the duager felt that the players where a big enough threat they would trigger the collapse.

Douglas
2008-09-17, 08:37 PM
Ikea Tarrasque. I think the lowest it works out is CR 8? Here's the beastie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20160). A Lernean Two-Headed Half-Clay Golem template set applied to an Ash Rat swarm makes a creature that cannot be damaged with anything. Ever. All by RAW, all legal. If you want to make it killable, using a Fire Giant for base creature means Disintegrate deals 1d12 damage per casting. Otherwise, it's still unstoppable.
No, I'm pretty sure Move Earth and Earthquake still work for dealing damage, and an area energy damage spell that doesn't allow SR (I can think of at least one off the top of my head) + Energy Substitution (Fire) + Searing Spell should do the trick for sealing the stumps.

It is possible to kill, it just requires jumping through several hoops, some of which involve specific character build choices. Oh, and a character (preferably more than one) quite a few levels higher than its official CR.

Flickerdart
2008-09-17, 08:38 PM
Except you can't use single-target spells on a swarm, so that tactic fails. At least that's what I keep being told.

Durendal
2008-09-17, 08:55 PM
Most twinked out characters are max-min'ed. Meaning that the player has sacrificed one stat or another in order to make another stat extraordinary. For casters this means that one of the mental stats will be highest, while Str, Con, or Dex is sacrificed. For melee gods this usually means a mental stat has been dumped, usually Charisma. All you need to do is target that characters weakest stat with ability draining/damaging spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged).

Douglas
2008-09-17, 08:58 PM
Except you can't use single-target spells on a swarm, so that tactic fails. At least that's what I keep being told.
That stops Disintegrate, but not Move Earth or Earthquake.

Flickerdart
2008-09-17, 09:54 PM
That stops Disintegrate, but not Move Earth or Earthquake.
You can only kill a Lernean creature by decapitating all its heads and then cauterizing the stumps. Else it grows two heads per stump back in, I think, 1d4 rounds. So you can damage it, but that doesn't really do anything.

Back on topic, I believe someone somewhere pointed out a discrepancy in CR scaling. Giving "unassociated" levels to a monster is only 1/2 CR per level, so you can have a CR 20 dragon wizard 20. Facing down, in the best case, a puny regular Wizard. And +4 CR for a challenging encounter means 8 more caster levels. Fun stuff.

Keld Denar
2008-09-17, 09:58 PM
Except you can't use single-target spells on a swarm, so that tactic fails. At least that's what I keep being told.

Fireburst and Greater Fireburst with Searing applied would do the job. Both are SR:NO and AoE. You could take Arcane Thesis for Fireburst and stack on enough metamagic that you could probably take one out in a few rounds, but it wouldn't be pretty...

Tormsskull
2008-09-17, 10:01 PM
I need help to get by the rules without seeming like a total jakass, while being yes, a total jakass


Wow. I'm about as Pro-DM as they come, but you sir, are a horrible DM. And, while I sure hope this was an attempt at humor, how about just not being a jackass at all?

If you're having legitimate problems with characters who are too powerful, you could try a lot of things.

1.) Read their character sheets and figure out where they are getting this power from.
2.) Design some of the encounters to attack their weakness'
3.) Attack them when they are unprepared.
4.) Convert to 4e. Its supposed to get rid of a lot of the twinkery.

RTGoodman
2008-09-17, 10:01 PM
Back on topic, I believe someone somewhere pointed out a discrepancy in CR scaling. Giving "unassociated" levels to a monster is only 1/2 CR per level, so you can have a CR 20 dragon wizard 20. Facing down, in the best case, a puny regular Wizard. And +4 CR for a challenging encounter means 8 more caster levels. Fun stuff.

Don't unassociated class levels stop being "unassociated" at a certain level, though (like when they equal 1/2 of the creature's HD or something)? I don't know enough about dragons to know if you took that into effect, but I think I remember someone talking about unassociated class levels and they were refuted with a rule like I mentioned.

EDIT: Nevermind, the class levels become associated after they EQUAL the creature's HD, so with dragon's that could end up being a lot.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-17, 10:01 PM
4e also removes the fun. Just use Tucker's Kobolds. Or ToH.

And Dragons have massive HD, it's not hard to reach 20 Wiz levels.

Knaight
2008-09-17, 11:03 PM
Maybe I'm just cruel, but these players are asking to have the game shifted to a rules light classless system. Bonus points if its narrative. Dogs in the vineyard would work, as would the non narrative Fudge, a few more rules opens up Ars Magica. Savage Worlds would also work pretty well.

chiasaur11
2008-09-17, 11:07 PM
Well, you always could hire friends of the player to bump them off. Most players won't expect their own mother to shoot them to death.

Those who do... well, their paranoia should be rewarded. Wait a week for the next murder attempt.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-17, 11:13 PM
Well, you always could hire friends of the player to bump them off. Most players won't expect their own mother to shoot them to death.

Those who do... well, their paranoia should be rewarded. Wait a week for the next murder attempt.Take one of the players who doesn't go overpowered, but is smart enough to do so if he wants. Then give them access to a lot of RAW-questionable stuff. And have them make a character to betray the party. And kill everyone whose characters you hate, before escaping and becoming the next Dragon. Give their replacement character extra gold as thanks.

chiasaur11
2008-09-17, 11:33 PM
Take one of the players who doesn't go overpowered, but is smart enough to do so if he wants. Then give them access to a lot of RAW-questionable stuff. And have them make a character to betray the party. And kill everyone whose characters you hate, before escaping and becoming the next Dragon. Give their replacement character extra gold as thanks.

Oh.
Characters.
Right.

That's what I was suggesting. I have committed no actions which led to a manhunt across Canada.

An Enemy Spy
2008-09-17, 11:35 PM
When you kill the players, make it look like died somewhere else so the cops don't arrest you

BobVosh
2008-09-18, 01:21 AM
There is always the "kidnapped princess" route. After a session or two of sitting out they will leave. Passive aggressive for the win!

Honestly doing this isn't fair to the guy. Ask him to leave if you don't want him there. Gear up the other players to even the field. Disjunction him to cripple him.

JaxGaret
2008-09-18, 01:22 AM
Tell your players that they can't play full casters.

Khanderas
2008-09-18, 01:38 AM
I was gonna suggest to talk it over with them, explain how you are certain that you will enjoy the game alot more and they quite possibly also will, by switching over from a Dragonball fightinggame without graphics (where the one with the most sayan levels win) to something more immersive.
Suggest at least trying to go that route, to break the monotony, give yourself and the players a challenge that has less to do with stats and perhaps everyone would find that style to be more satisfying.

But they are idiots and you want them dead. So remove all sharp and blunt objects in the room, and let them know the beggar they met on the street is actually Bruce Banner, who swiftly turn into the Hulk and beat the everliving scat out of them. Oh and this version has regeneration (as the comic) but also immune to all magic and spellike abilities and (unlike the comic) will bash them all into death. The hulk also bashes any magical items they carry into dust, rust monsters feed on the dust, vultures eat the corpses and a previously unknown monster "the bone eater" eats the bones, leaving nothing left to cast ressurrection on. Oh and their souls are captured by a lich, who then leaves for other dimensions, never to be seen again or contactable by any means.

Oh you want subtle ? Not from me you won't.:smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2008-09-18, 07:38 AM
Deep pit trap filled with whipped cream. Feather fall = who cares, water breathing=meh, it's not water, not fluid enough to swim in, too thick to throw a rope through and opaque anyway, so you can't target spells through it.

Probably not subtle, but totally plausible if some pixies got loose near a cooking school :P

Jack Zander
2008-09-18, 09:08 AM
Well if you chop the body up and put in a pig's troth in with some gruel, the hogs will eat the entire thing, bones included. I'll be a lot harder to get caught without a body.

I'm not really sure what to do for the actual murder though. Poison would be bad. You don't want the pig's getting sick and leaving clues like that. I guess murdering them outside would be best, since the blood clues will disappear unlike blood stains in your house which can be blacklit with that chemical stuff.

Blackfang108
2008-09-18, 09:17 AM
4e also removes the fun.

No it doesn't .

that's up to the players and DM, not the edition.

SoD
2008-09-18, 09:38 AM
No it doesn't .

that's up to the players and DM, not the edition.

However, he's come across a problem with munchkin players. This should not be fixed by changing the game! Presumably, apart from this problem, he, and his players, have enjoyed playing 3.5e. If they haven't enjoyed it, then yes, by all means, try 4e. If they enjoy it, but want to see what the fuss is about, try it. But don't change to 4e to fix the problem.

Simplest way to do it? Talk it over with the problem players. Ask if next time, they can play something less overpowering, suggest they try a typically sub-par class. If it gets bad enough, tell everyone to hand their character concepts, sheets, and desired builds before the campaign starts. If anything looks too overpowering, tell them to take it down a few notches.

Another way? Put in more encounters that aren't solveed by combat. Maybe to get somewhere, they need to talk their way past a guard. Sure, they could stab the guy and go in, but that'd get a bunch more guards tracking them down, in fact, a whole heap of them tracking them down, potentially hiring others to assist (divination magic? Law enforcers from other towns? Mercaneries? Bloodhunters? Even hired assassins if need be!). The more they kill, the more will come after them! At the end, let them know, if they'd just bribed the guard (if he was bribable) or attempted to sneak past, or talk their way past, they wouldn't be in jail/killed in capture/up for execution. DnD is a roleplaying game.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-09-18, 09:55 AM
Allright, so i'm running one of my classic campaigns (the name of which can be left out of this), and every time, the campaign gets ruined by big powerful characters, played by the dumbest people i've ever met, or by the people who spend their days memorizing the rulebooks.


I need help to get by the rules without seeming like a total jakass, while being yes, a total jakass


II
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Make the BBEG a wizard :smallbiggrin: