It wuz a really high save! Bwu ha ha!

[Moechi_Vill]

How high do you think it was?
Calculations are welcome, but not necessary.

[Ganurath]

Given Kubota's taste for the expensive, he would have gone with either

A. Black Lotus Extract. More expensive, fitting his taste, more fitting the asiatic theme of Azure City, deals 3d6 Con initial and secondary, and has a DC 20 save. Downsides? A bit dangerous to apply a contact poison to a ring going on your person. If he has poison use, though, I don't see him not springing for this, especially since it means he qualifies for the feats in Complete Scoundrel that give +1 to the DC, and +1 to the ability damage per die, which would mean DC 21 to avoid an average of 13 Con damage on the initial save, let alone the second save where the damage is applied.

B. Wyvern Poison. His elven glass shows he has a taste for valuables from abroad. 2d6 Con initial and secondary with a DC of 17. The poison of choice for this scenario if he didn't have any feats pertaining to poison use.

[Human Paragon 3]

Given Kubota's taste for the expensive, he would have gone with either

A. Black Lotus Extract. More expensive, fitting his taste, more fitting the asiatic theme of Azure City, deals 3d6 Con initial and secondary, and has a DC 20 save. Downsides? A bit dangerous to apply a contact poison to a ring going on your person. If he has poison use, though, I don't see him not springing for this, especially since it means he qualifies for the feats in Complete Scoundrel that give +1 to the DC, and +1 to the ability damage per die, which would mean DC 21 to avoid an average of 13 Con damage on the initial save, let alone the second save where the damage is applied.



He already appiled the anti-toxin so he was safe from poisoning himself, even with just plain aristocrat levels.

[Enlong]

Can't be a contact poison, otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of scratching her with the ring. It's gotta be an injury poison, one that must get into a wound to work.

[Ganurath]

Can't be a contact poison, otherwise he wouldn't have gone to the trouble of scratching her with the ring. It's gotta be an injury poison, one that must get into a wound to work.Actually, he said he delivered it with a touch attack, which implies that he didn't need to inflict an actual injury, just make contact. So yeah, I'm betting on Black Lotus.

[Enlong]

Actually, he said he delivered it with a touch attack, which implies that he didn't need to inflict an actual injury, just make contact. So yeah, I'm betting on Black Lotus.

But... it's a needle, it makes a scratching sound effect, and it left a wound.

[Ganurath]

But... it's a needle, it makes a scratching sound effect, and it left a wound.It was actually just a prong, enough to jut out so that it can make contact on its own without the wearer needing to make an actual unarmed strike to land a blow.

[Enlong]

It was actually just a prong, enough to jut out so that it can make contact on its own without the wearer needing to make an actual unarmed strike to land a blow.

And as for the scratch and the pinprick wound?

[Ganurath]

And as for the scratch and the pinprick wound?Where does it say touch attacks can't be pointy?
If you shrink a weapon enough, it becomes too small to deal damage. The rules don't say anything against the weapon being able to hurt, though.

[SPoD]

And as for the scratch and the pinprick wound?

A visual clue for us, the readers. Not necessarily indicative of actual hit point loss.

In other words, just because something draws blood does not mean its an "Injury" in D&D terms. A paper cut wouldn't warrant a 1 hp loss for even a 1st level commoner, but it still might bleed.

[Theodoriph]

It was actually just a prong, enough to jut out so that it can make contact on its own without the wearer needing to make an actual unarmed strike to land a blow.

The fact that it needed a wound for it to work was emphasized. If it was simply a contact poison, there would be no point in showing a pinprick wound and a drop of blood, especially since a pinprick wound would be impossible to see from our scale.


This is of course not withstanding the fact that if Kubota took the anti-toxin and was using Black Lotus Extract, he didn't even have to bother with the ring. He could have coated his hands in the poison and just touched her.

[SPoD]

The fact that it needed a wound for it to work was emphasized. If it was simply a contact poison, there would be no point in showing a pinprick wound and a drop of blood, especially since a pinprick wound would be impossible to see from our scale.

Yes, there is a point to showing the pinprick: If it were contact poison, it would need to touch her body, not her shirt. The pinprick proves that the ring went THROUGH the shirt and touched her skin, enough to draw a drop of blood.

[Theodoriph]

Yes, there is a point to showing the pinprick: If it were contact poison, it would need to touch her body, not her shirt. The pinprick proves that the ring went THROUGH the shirt and touched her skin, enough to draw a drop of blood.

Actually, getting the poison on her shirt would have been enough to poison her. She's not wearing latex. :smalltongue:


And believe it or not, in D&D the distinction between whether the part of you that touches the poison is bare or not isn't generally made. Although, if someone were wearing iron/steel gauntlets, I might give them the benefit of the doubt...but even then there are ways for a contact poison to seep through. With fabrics of course...well, they're quite porous.


And finally, the "OWWW!" would have been enough to indicate contact, the drop of blood where we should see no blood is overkill for a contact poison, but well-suited for an injury poison.

[AKA_Bait]

Actually, getting the poison on her shirt would have been enough to poison her. She's not wearing latex. :smalltongue:


And believe it or not, in D&D the distinction between whether the part of you that touches the poison is bare or not isn't generally made. Although, if someone were wearing iron/steel gauntlets, I might give them the benefit of the doubt...but even then there are ways for a contact poison to seep through. With fabrics of course...well, they're quite porous.

Well, given the possible poisons that could have reliably killed her in two saves I'd say it's probably one of the two already mentioned. Yes, they are contact poisons but here are two things to keep in mind:

1. OotS audience is not entirely rules savy D&D geeks like ourselves. A regular old application of a contact poison, without showing any wound at all, could have caused a "WTF how did she get poisoned?" among other readers.

2. As said, just because it's a contact poison doesn't mean that it can't be applied to the target in a way that also deals damage. It just means that it doesn't have to deal damage to work. I can smear my broadsword with black lotus extract if I want to. You have to touch someone with an object to stab them with it.

[SPoD]

Actually, getting the poison on her shirt would have been enough to poison her. She's not wearing latex. :smalltongue:


And believe it or not, in D&D the distinction between whether the part of you that touches the poison is bare or not isn't generally made. Although, if someone were wearing iron/steel gauntlets, I might give them the benefit of the doubt...but even then there are ways for a contact poison to seep through. With fabrics of course...well, they're quite porous.


And finally, the "OWWW!" would have been enough to indicate contact, the drop of blood where we should see no blood is overkill for a contact poison, but well-suited for an injury poison.

You overestimate the rules knowledge of the average OOTS reader. If he hadn't drawn that pinprick, we'd have a 15-page thread called "How Did Threkla [sic] Get Poisoned THROUGH HER SHIRT?!?!1?"

[Theodoriph]

Well, given the possible poisons that could have reliably killed her in two saves I'd say it's probably one of the two already mentioned. Yes, they are contact poisons but here are two things to keep in mind:


Out of the two mentioned, one is a contact, one is an injury. Both are strong enough to kill her. And both have saves high enough that she could conceivably fail twice (assuming she actually rolled for the second save and didn't purposefully fail). That's why there's a debate :smalltongue:

[AKA_Bait]

Out of the two mentioned, one is a contact, one is an injury. Both are strong enough to kill her. And both have saves high enough that she could conceivably fail twice. That's why there's a debate :smalltongue:

Yikes. Right you are. Kubota doesn't strike me as the type to leave offing her much to chance. I'd expect the more pricey poison with more damage and the higher save then. So, I'm still siding with it being the contact poison.

[Chronos]

In other words, just because something draws blood does not mean its an "Injury" in D&D terms. A paper cut wouldn't warrant a 1 hp loss for even a 1st level commoner, but it still might bleed.On the other hand,

Injury

This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it.So in order for an injury poison to work, the attack must deal at least one point of regular damage.

Also keep in mind that antitoxin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#antitoxin) doesn't make you immune to a poison; it just gives you a bonus to your saving throw. Trying to deliver Black Lotus by hand with no other protection beyond a poor-progression Fort save with a +5 bonus is insanely stupid (not the sort of thing that Kubota would even consider).

[Theodoriph]

On the other hand,
So in order for an injury poison to work, the attack must deal at least one point of regular damage.

Also keep in mind that antitoxin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#antitoxin) doesn't make you immune to a poison; it just gives you a bonus to your saving throw. Trying to deliver Black Lotus by hand with no other protection beyond a poor-progression Fort save with a +5 bonus is insanely stupid (not the sort of thing that Kubota would even consider).


You're confusing the use of the word antitoxin. Elan and Kubota aren't talking about antitoxin. They are talking about "the antitoxin" to the poison. I know it can be confusing since antitoxin is an item in D&D, but the context of their conversation indicates the latter. Kubota likely has "the antitoxin" to whichever poison he used and was smart enough to take it prior to the encounter.

And I know it has to do damage. From the "Owwwwww!", I deduced that at least 1 hp in damage was done.

[AKA_Bait]

And I know it has to do damage. From the "Owwwwww!", I deduced that at least 1 hp in damage was done.

Here's a question: how many weapons do damage with just a touch attack in that case? It can't something that would count as an unarmed attack as that would have provoked an AOO from Therkla.

[SoC175]

Nicking someone with a ring needle isn't a touch attack, it requires a normal melee attack. Looks like annother small rules misstake the Giant made (as opposed to deliberately ignoring some rules as he also often does)

(assuming she actually rolled for the second save and didn't purposefully fail). That's why there's a debate :smalltongue:
Being a rogue-like class neither her Fort-save progression nor her Con score progression can be expected to be good.

So after failing the first save it shouldn't really matter whether she even wanted to succeed at the second save, a bad Fort to begin with coupled with the Con-damage she had already taken from the first failed save means that her changes to make the second save could easily be reduced to "nat 20 or die"

With 12 Con and the base Fort save of a 14th level rogue she only has +5 on her Fort save. After taking 10 Con damage from a frist failed save her new bonus for the second save would be +0

[Evil DM Mark3]

Can I take this moment to point out that the DMG says that contact poisons still work if you use and injury delivery method, as do contact and injury if you use an ingested method.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Can I just take a moment to remind everyone that the Giant doesn't actually research the rules to D&D every time he writes a comic? Even if he had a particular poison in mind, he probably went for the delivery method that looked coolest rather than the one that was the least amount of effort. Heck, the same philosophy could apply to Kubota in-character.

Anyway, if he had a D&D poison in mind, my money's on Black Lotus.

[Guchalez]

The poisons form the DMG are not the only poisons in DnD, there are lots of poisons from different books and that's not counting that you can brew a customize poison and make it even more powerful than normal poisons.
I'm thinking of contact poison, the ring may a method to make the contact poison enter the body and maybe increase the save DC. I don't remember the rules for poison rings, they're in the song and silence I think.

[David Argall]

Plot poison. Really deadly stuff, unless you are the hero. NPCs die fairly often from it.

[Enlong]

The poisons form the DMG are not the only poisons in DnD, there are lots of poisons from different books and that's not counting that you can brew a customize poison and make it even more powerful than normal poisons.
I'm thinking of contact poison, the ring may a method to make the contact poison enter the body and maybe increase the save DC. I don't remember the rules for poison rings, they're in the song and silence I think.

The fact that it's on a ring with a spike would suggest that it's wound poison, not contact. If Kubota had a deadly contact poison, he'd put it on a far more inconpicuous ring (for example, just a regular ring, not one with a pointy-scratchy spike on it)

[RosesOnConcrete]

Plot poison. Really deadly stuff, unless you are the hero. NPCs die fairly often from it.

Precisely.

[Demented]

Kubota doesn't strike me as the type to leave offing her much to chance.

In that case, why not both? :smallamused:

[AKA_Bait]

In that case, why not both? :smallamused:

It's against trope. Villians just poison someone with one substance at a time. Poising then with several at once (something bad guys in my own D&D games do) destroys the dramatic tension.

[Morty]

It's against trope. Villians just poison someone with one substance at a time. Poising then with several at once (something bad guys in my own D&D games do) destroys the dramatic tension.

Kubota doesn't look like someone who'd care about dramatic tension. Which is a part of why I like him.

[Orran]

Kubota may not care about dramatic tension, but Therkla needed to survive the initial damage for his plan to work.

[Enlong]

OK. Fine. In the presence of Word of God, I submit that you were right. It was Lotus Extract.

[Adrian]

The fact that it needed a wound for it to work was emphasized. If it was simply a contact poison, there would be no point in showing a pinprick wound and a drop of blood, especially since a pinprick wound would be impossible to see from our scale.
A needle would be sensible even for contact poison, since you want to get through the clothes.

[LuisDantas]

I can smear my broadsword with black lotus extract if I want to.

Going a bit off-topic, while that would be effective in combat, would it be practical? It would be quite a nightmare to handle it safely. And the Blacksmiths Guild would likely strongly object.

[Heroic]

The new comic says its Blak Lotus extract... so that's the answer to all of this I guess

[Enlong]

I said that an hour ago. It's like I'm invisible today...

[Heroic]

Ooops sorry. Really sleepy, I may have skipped your comment. :smallfrown:

[LuisDantas]

In that case, why not both? :smallamused:

From a practical perspective, it's unadvisable. Double the trouble, a significant chance of taking the wrong countertoxin when need be, and not much benefit at all.

[Spiky]

And as for the scratch and the pinprick wound?

Nobody seems to have answered this, not sure why not. Kubota is not a nice guy. I mean, why wouldn't he try to injure her? Who cares about plot, poison choice, etc.

[chiasaur11]

I said that an hour ago. It's like I'm invisible today...

You've just ninja'd too many people.

You leveled up, and no-one can make the spot check.

[Chronos]

Going a bit off-topic, while that would be effective in combat, would it be practical? It would be quite a nightmare to handle it safely. And the Blacksmiths Guild would likely strongly object.Certain classes such as the Assassin have a class feature that automatically lets them handle poisoned weapons safely (well, safely to themselves, at least). The biggest problem is that the really good poisons are insanely expensive per dose, so it's not something you can afford to do all the time.

[FujinAkari]

Ummm... why are you all arguing about this? Kubota told us precisely what it was in the latest strip :P

[Lissou]

Is it me, or has that whole thread absolutely nothing to do with the op's post? The question was "how high do you think Kubota's save is?" and then everybody talked about poisons for some reason >.>

[LuisDantas]

The thought crossed my mind. I guess the OP could have been clearer.

[Zolem]

And for thsoe of you calling it "No HP DAMAGE ect." a posoned ring deals a 1hp touch attack based on dex. It has a compartment that you load with poison. On the sucessfull touch attack, the needle springs out and injects the poison. The poison can be contact or wound type.

[LuisDantas]

Can I take this moment to point out that the DMG says that contact poisons still work if you use an injury delivery method, as do contact and injury if you use an ingested method.

Just a quick comment on real-world (TM) happenings: contact poisons work just as well, if not better, when injected in the bloodstream. But ingesting a substance may actually make it less dangerous than if it is applied to the skin or into the bloodstream. The digestive process is fairly involved and may well dilute or even decompose many chemicals.

Of course, that would only be a significant factor with injury poisons, if at all.

[Heroic]

Is it me, or has that whole thread absolutely nothing to do with the op's post? The question was "how high do you think Kubota's save is?" and then everybody talked about poisons for some reason >.>

Not Kubota's save, the save for the poisoned ring that attacked Therkla. That's why we started talking about posions, because to know the save you have to know which poison is being used.

[LuisDantas]

Was that what Moechi wanted to talk about, though?