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View Full Version : Did Kubota become the story's biggest magnificent bastard?



paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 07:31 PM
He seems to have a back up plan for a back up plan, as well as the uncanny ability to exploit combat rules against REAL ADVENTURERS even though he's supposedly "just" an NPC......Seriously what is there that DOESN'T make him look like a magnificent bastard?

d'Bwobsling
2008-09-18, 07:33 PM
He can't beat Miko:smalltongue:

Neon Knight
2008-09-18, 07:35 PM
Definitely. He's my favorite Oots villain right now.

JonathanC
2008-09-18, 07:36 PM
He seems to have a back up plan for a back up plan, as well as the uncanny ability to exploit combat rules against REAL ADVENTURERS even though he's supposedly "just" an NPC......Seriously what is there that DOESN'T make him look like a magnificent bastard?

Let's have some perspective here, people. Kubota killed a helpful NPC with a poisoned ring. Xyklon killed the main protagonist with a meteor shower and falling damage, to say nothing of the sheer amount of bastard-ness he managed in Start of Darkness.

The lich is the king, period.

tyckspoon
2008-09-18, 07:37 PM
Yes, he did, but mainly because the other possible claimants for the title aren't all that good at it. Nale's plans are excessively complicated and usually no more effective than a simpler plan would be. Redcloak's intelligent enough, but generally works in a pretty straight-forward way. Xykon has possibilities (crf. Start of Darkness), but his normal demeanor and choice of villainies lacks the subtlety, imagination, and style that normally marks the Magnificent Bastard. Kubota tops the list by default, right now.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 07:37 PM
Let's have some perspective here, people. Kubota killed a helpful NPC with a poisoned ring. Xyklon killed the main protagonist with a meteor shower and falling damage, to say nothing of the sheer amount of bastard-ness he managed in Start of Darkness.

The lich is the king, period.



Yeah but Xykon relies too much on brute force rather than actual cunning, therefore by definition Kobuta is a bigger magnificent bastard than the lich

d'Bwobsling
2008-09-18, 07:38 PM
Let's have some perspective here, people. Kubota killed a helpful NPC with a poisoned ring. Xyklon killed the main protagonist with a meteor shower and falling damage, to say nothing of the sheer amount of bastard-ness he managed in Start of Darkness.

The lich is the king, period.

Yeah, but Miko managed to be incredible anoying also

JonathanC
2008-09-18, 07:39 PM
Yeah but Xykon relies too much on brute force rather than actual cunning, therefore by definition Kobuta is a bigger magnificent bastard than the lich

*shrug* Justify it however you want, but at the end of the day if you're a villain, then the ends justify the means. Xykon has more style, and has done way more damage to way more people. Let's not forget who sacked Azure City in the first place.

Kubota is a decent mid-boss, but he has yet to do anything close to what Xykon has done.

Dracons
2008-09-18, 07:39 PM
Kubota is the Oots Batman.

If only he gained like, thirty lbs of muscles.

Enlong
2008-09-18, 07:42 PM
*shrug* Justify it however you want, but at the end of the day if you're a villain, then the ends justify the means. Xykon has more style, and has done way more damage to way more people. Let's not forget who sacked Azure City in the first place.

Kubota is a decent mid-boss, but he has yet to do anything close to what Xykon has done.
I think when people here say "Magnificent Bastard", they refer to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).
Basically, it boils down to "evil, manipulative chessmaster", and Kubota is more like that then Xykon, even though Xykon's on a whole 'nother echelon of pure villainy.

d'Bwobsling
2008-09-18, 07:44 PM
I think when people here say "Magnificent Bastard", they refer to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).
Basically, it boils down to "evil, manipulative chessmaster", and Kubota is more like that then Xykon, even though Xykon's on a whole 'nother echelon of pure villainy.

I think Nale would fall under that catogory more

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 07:48 PM
*shrug* Justify it however you want, but at the end of the day if you're a villain, then the ends justify the means. Xykon has more style, and has done way more damage to way more people. Let's not forget who sacked Azure City in the first place.

Kubota is a decent mid-boss, but he has yet to do anything close to what Xykon has done.



Yeah but the only reason that Xykon does more damage is that Kubota doesn't have the demigodly abilities that Xykon has. Kubota has to rely on his resources more than his own combat abilities. Aside from that Redcloak played a more important role in "sacking Azure City" than Xykon (who would have ended up destroying his entire army with his whole "destroy the gates and rush in" plan).

A magnificent bastard doesn't depend soley on magical powers or items to be who they are, (granted they may/porbably will use them if they had access to them) but rather their own cunning and strategic capabilities.

JonathanC
2008-09-18, 07:48 PM
I think when people here say "Magnificent Bastard", they refer to this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard).
Basically, it boils down to "evil, manipulative chessmaster", and Kubota is more like that then Xykon, even though Xykon's on a whole 'nother echelon of pure villainy.

Evil, manipulative, able to anticipate his target's moves...if you think Xykon doesn't count, then clearly you haven't read Start of Darkness.

His complete and utter pwn of Redcloak simply outdoes Kubota's poisoned ring trick on Therkla. That didn't even take that much planning, to be honest.

Pronounceable
2008-09-18, 07:49 PM
Sure looks like it atm. Nale is too incompetant and Xykon doesn't NEED cunning. Miko wasn't even a proper enemy.

I'll bet that title actually belongs to Redcloak. He has some huge game going on with the gates, whereas Kubota is just a vagrant nobleman mucking about in the mud. Just wait till the main plot advances to Girard's gate...

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 07:52 PM
Sure looks like it atm. Nale is too incompetant and Xykon doesn't NEED cunning. Miko wasn't even a proper enemy.

I'll bet that title actually belongs to Redcloak. He has some huge game going on with the gates, whereas Kubota is just a vagrant nobleman mucking about in the mud. Just wait till the main plot advances to Girard's gate...



That's probably Kubota doesn't even know of the gates..... if he knew that there was a rift containing an entity powerful enough to blackmail the gods right behind the seat of the senile old man who was at his mercy for decades or so, would he have not taken advantage of it?

Querzis
2008-09-18, 08:25 PM
He definitly top the list right now and I gotta say, even if I would want him to die for what he did to Therkla, hes my favorite villain until now. That guy is good at being evil, like REALLY good. Xykon is mainly brute force, definitly not MB materials. Even though Xykon proved lots of time that hes a lot smarter then he seems he rarely use that intelligence. Whats fun about Nale, and the reason I like him so much, is that he think that he is a MB when hes, in fact, just a total bastard. Redcloak is intelligent...but I woudnt say cunning. If we look carefully he was tricked lots of times (mainly by Xykon) and his tricks, like the three Xykon, were all seen through. His strategy worked very well though...but being a chessmaster is more about devious schemes then the strategy redcloak is so good at.

But Kubota really seems to have about a hundred backup plan. As I said in the main thread, people have been saying for something like 50 strips now «well that was a dumb move from Kubota, he wont be able to get out of this one» but he proved them wrong every single freaking time! And I have no doubt he will again! You cant fight that guy like a paladin. Using the law will never work. The only way Kubota could ever be beaten is if Elan, really pissed off about Therkla death, decide to go kill him in his sleep.

I gotta say, I would be really interested to see what would happen if Kubota learn about the gate. Screw ruling Azure city, lets rule the world!

By the way d'Bwobsling, I really dont see how Miko was supposed to be magnificient or a bastard at all. She was a well intentioned extremist.

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 09:39 PM
Yeah but the only reason that Xykon does more damage is that Kubota doesn't have the demigodly abilities that Xykon has. Kubota has to rely on his resources more than his own combat abilities. Aside from that Redcloak played a more important role in "sacking Azure City" than Xykon (who would have ended up destroying his entire army with his whole "destroy the gates and rush in" plan).

A magnificent bastard doesn't depend soley on magical powers or items to be who they are, (granted they may/porbably will use them if they had access to them) but rather their own cunning and strategic capabilities.



Your comment would make sense, except for the fact that Kubota completely relies on items to be who he is. Else, he'd just be an epic fail.

And Xykon and Kubota both rely on their own resources. Xykon's resources include his magical powers, which he has spent a century or so developing, while Kubota spent his time expanding his network and making money. Both count as resources that each party can bring to bear. So to say that Kubota relies on his own resources and imply that Xykon doesn't is rather silly.


I mean honestly, if you people think Kubota is a magnificent bastard because his strategy was:

"Hyuck...I'm going to stab this person in the back with a poison needle to make the good guys try to save her while I escape and I'll wear so much armor boosting equipment that I'll be invulnerable....hyuck!"

then you really need to read more...or watch better quality television (no more dragonball Z) :P That's hardly chess master-like behaviour, and that is unfortunately for you, one of the key components to being a magnificent bastard.



One of the other qualifications that you guys seem to have overlooked is the fact that a Magnificent Bastard is supposed to win regularly. Kubota though, is primarily made of fail after fail after fail. From trying to kill Shojo, to trying to kill Hinjo, to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again) etc.

Borris
2008-09-18, 09:56 PM
Kubota is a bastard, alright, after what he did to Elan and Therkla just because he could. He just hasn't shown much magnificience. Killing one of your own double-crossing minions with high-price poison while losing seven ninjas and two mid-level samurai while not getting the initially planned job done isn't much of a success to brag about.

Ryuuk
2008-09-18, 09:56 PM
Your comment would make sense, except for the fact that Kubota completely relies on items to be who he is. Else, he'd just be an epic fail.

And Xykon and Kubota both rely on their own resources. Xykon's resources include his magical powers, which he has spent a century or so developing, while Kubota spent his time expanding his network and making money. Both count as resources that each party can bring to bear. So to say that Kubota relies on his own resources and imply that Xykon doesn't is rather silly.


I mean honestly, if you people think Kubota is a magnificent bastard because his strategy was:

"Hyuck...I'm going to stab this person in the back with a poison needle to make the good guys try to save her while I escape and I'll wear so much armor boosting equipment that I'll be invulnerable....hyuck!"

then you really need to read more...or watch better quality television (no more dragonball Z) :P That's hardly chess master-like behaviour, and that is unfortunately for you, one of the key components to being a magnificent bastard.



One of the other qualifications that you guys seem to have overlooked is the fact that a Magnificent Bastard is supposed to win regularly. Kubota though, is primarily made of fail after fail after fail. From trying to kill Shojo, to trying to kill Hinjo, to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again) etc.

It wasn't so much his plans as the fact that he's been able to attempt them without the god guys being able to lay a finger on him, even though they know full well what he's doing. All while acting smug and dispicable and handing out the verbal beatdowns.

krossbow
2008-09-18, 10:00 PM
One of the other qualifications that you guys seem to have overlooked is the fact that a Magnificent Bastard is supposed to win regularly. Kubota though, is primarily made of fail after fail after fail. From trying to kill Shojo, to trying to kill Hinjo, to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again) etc.




Magnificient bastards don't win by Just trying ONE uber plan.


They win by trying a billion. What makes a magnificient bastard is the ability to walk away from every scheme, every plan, every battle with little to no damage.
They aren't impatient, they take their time, and they realize that its not about winning in a single stroke. Kubota knows this; it may take one scheme, or it may take a hundred. As long as he has the money and time, and isn't convicted, what does he care? He'll still rule when everything is said and done.



I mean, do you know how LONG it took light to kill L? It took an incredibly long number of parries and manipulations to finally win.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 10:12 PM
Your comment would make sense, except for the fact that Kubota completely relies on items to be who he is. Else, he'd just be an epic fail.

And Xykon and Kubota both rely on their own resources. Xykon's resources include his magical powers, which he has spent a century or so developing, while Kubota spent his time expanding his network and making money. Both count as resources that each party can bring to bear. So to say that Kubota relies on his own resources and imply that Xykon doesn't is rather silly.






Ahh but Xykon doesn't control his own resources directly, he needs to act via Redcloak, and as we seen, Redcloak probably doesn't hold Xykon's best interests at heart....http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html





I mean honestly, if you people think Kubota is a magnificent bastard because his strategy was:

"Hyuck...I'm going to stab this person in the back with a poison needle to make the good guys try to save her while I escape and I'll wear so much armor boosting equipment that I'll be invulnerable....hyuck!"

then you really need to read more...or watch better quality television (no more dragonball Z) :P That's hardly chess master-like behaviour, and that is unfortunately for you, one of the key components to being a magnificent bastard.



One of the other qualifications that you guys seem to have overlooked is the fact that a Magnificent Bastard is supposed to win regularly. Kubota though, is primarily made of fail after fail after fail. From trying to kill Shojo, to trying to kill Hinjo, to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again), to trying to kill Hinjo (again) etc.


The whole "poison ring" does sound very crude IF you don't account it from the beggining. "First ambushing the enemy while they least expect it. Check. try to make it look like you're actually trying to help the victims to throw off suspicions. Check. If the do-gooders arrive, and there is a very high chance they might, take the weaker one hostage and try to revert the one who WAS loyal to you back to your side. Check. If the mooks die off, use that poison ring you've been saving to kill off the highest level character that used to be on your payroll, this should work if you discouraged them from keeping "greater endurance" as a feat A LONG TIME AGO, then walk out cassually while the character is dying off, leaving the other enemies with the choice of apprehending you OR saving the poisoned traitor and clean your image before the authorities show up. Check. The fact that he had a back up plan for a back up plan FOR a back up plan is magnificent. Also a magnificent bastard's plan rarely works at first strike, the most important thing about them is that they always rebound fast and always have a plan to fallback on.

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 10:13 PM
Part of what makes people a magnificent bastard is that a lot of their plans actually SUCCEED. Kubota has failed and failed and failed and failed and failed and failed. That and none of his plans are particularly devious or cunning, which is another requisite.

Zolem
2008-09-18, 10:15 PM
No, no, I refuse to call him a MB, he's a Smug Snake, because the audiance doesn't love to hate him, they just hate him.

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 10:19 PM
Ahh but Xykon doesn't control his own resources directly, he needs to act via Redcloak, and as we seen, Redcloak probably doesn't hold Xykon's best interests at heart....http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html


Erm, I honestly am totally missing your point. Kubota doesn't around doing everything himself. He has subordinates, like Therkla, ninja squads, his head servant etc. He delegates authority. Nobody with any sense tries to micromanage everything. Xykon has subordinates too (e.g. Redcloak and Redcloak's subordinates (various hobgoblin leaders). Xykon delegates authority as well.

The problem with having subordinates is that occasionally one of them is working against your interests (e.g. Redcloak, Therkla, Belkar).

Both prepared contingency plans in case this should happen. Xykon has MiTD. Kubota has his little poison plot.

So all in all, I'm not sure what your point is.

chiasaur11
2008-09-18, 10:20 PM
Ahh but Xykon doesn't control his own resources directly, he needs to act via Redcloak, and as we seen, Redcloak probably doesn't hold Xykon's best interests at heart....http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html

And making someone who hates you unable to do anything but help you without ruining his whole life?

Pretty magnificent.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 10:26 PM
Erm, I honestly am totally missing your point. Kubota doesn't around doing everything himself. He has subordinates, like Therkla, ninja squads, his head servant etc. He delegates authority. Nobody with any sense tries to micromanage everything. Xykon has subordinates too (e.g. Redcloak and Redcloak's subordinates (various hobgoblin leaders). Xykon delegates authority as well.

The problem with having subordinates is that occasionally one of them is working against your interests (e.g. Redcloak, Therkla, Belkar).

Both prepared contingency plans in case this should happen. Xykon has MiTD. Kubota has his little poison plot.

So all in all, I'm not sure what your point is.

My point is that if you take away Redcloak from Xykon, he would have no means of leading an entire nation of hobgoblins and probably end up destroying them indirectly. Whereas Kubota doesn't give any of his minions that much authority, seeing as he doesn't (understandably) trust them as much or doesn't have the ego to believe he is so infallable that he can give them command of a whole army and they won't betray him.(like Xykon)

There's also the fact that Redcloak is fully aware of Xykon's plan and has somehow bypassed it as seen at his conversasion with Jerix. While Therkla may have betrayed Kobuta, she wasn't a potential Starscream, she didn't work against Kobuta, she tried to allow him to get away with all the crimes that he got away with, wheras Redcloak only sees Xykon as a means to an end, Therkla actually cared about Kobuta.....

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 10:30 PM
And making someone who hates you unable to do anything but help you without ruining his whole life?

Pretty magnificent.


Yes or you can create a reliable traitor.......Redcloak DOES fit this trope rather well if you ask me http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReliableTraitor

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 10:45 PM
Part of what makes people a magnificent bastard is that a lot of their plans actually SUCCEED. Kubota has failed and failed and failed and failed and failed and failed. That and none of his plans are particularly devious or cunning, which is another requisite.

As stated before it is rare for a magnificent bastard to be able to complete their goals in just ONE plan. There is always a possibility of mistake even with the BEST possible plan, therefore a magnificent bastard will make a back up plan aswell as an escape plan to give him a chance of 0% failure because they know that it is much more desirable to cut your losses and escape without any reprecussions without having to depend on ONE plan to succeed. Infact, a magnificent bastard can build truly magnificent bastardliness from all his "failed plans".

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 10:54 PM
My point is that if you take away Redcloak from Xykon, he would have no means of leading an entire nation of hobgoblins and probably end up destroying them indirectly. Whereas Kubota doesn't give any of his minions that much authority, seeing as he doesn't (understandably) trust them as much or doesn't have the ego to believe he is so infallable that he can give them command of a whole army and they won't betray him.(like Xykon)

There's also the fact that Redcloak is fully aware of Xykon's plan and has somehow bypassed it as seen at his conversasion with Jerix. While Therkla may have betrayed Kobuta, she wasn't a potential Starscream, she didn't work against Kobuta, she tried to allow him to get away with all the crimes that he got away with, wheras Redcloak only sees Xykon as a means to an end, Therkla actually cared about Kobuta.....



If you take away Redcloak, Xykon appoints someone else to lead the hobgoblin army...like Jerix.

Kubota doesn't give any of his minions that much authority, because Kubota doesn't have that much authority to give. He's small beans. He still delegates though. He doesn't run all his businesses, or collect all his tributes etc.

Furthermore Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak. That's why MiTD will devour Redcloak at the first sign of treachery. What Xykon does do is hold the trump card. Redcloak needs him, and so long as Redcloak needs him, he will follow Xykon's orders. Xykon is well aware of that. So he delegates authority to Redcloak. Because even though he doesn't trust Redcloak, he knows that for the most part, he controls him and that Redcloak will not try anything until they reach their objective.

Assuming they do, all hell will probably break lose and I can't wait to see. :smallbiggrin:

Friv
2008-09-18, 10:54 PM
I would rule in favour of Smug Snake. Kubota's more or less totally mucked it up this time. He's left witnesses alive, killed someone who was still basically loyal to him, and is assuming the success of a plan that has already failed.

AceOfFools
2008-09-18, 10:54 PM
From the magnificent bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) entry:

"Instead of trying to control every variable, the Magnificent Bastard is a gambler who plays the odds and wins regularly. In the grand game, he always puts himself into play - he is his own most effective piece. It means being exposed to danger at times, but the benefits are considerable. When an unexpected opportunity appears, he's there to spot it and seize it. He can play other people's emotions like a piano. And when his plans go awry, he's ready to turn a setback into an advantage."

This seems to describe what Kubota did here fairly well, if not many of his other schemes.

The part where Kubota falls short of being a Magnificent Bastard is the part at the end where the audience likes him because of his style, charm and wicked sense of humor.

Many people1 admire his intelligence, but don't like him. While he may be well written, he's still a very shallow character. And he only has one shtick, "Lawful evil, here's my card (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardCarryingVillain)."

Sure he makes a great side villain, but it would have been a mistake to use someone like him as the main villain.

Rich development only goes to those who rule chapter after chapter.

1. Meaning the Ace of Fools

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 10:57 PM
From the magnificent bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) entry:

"Instead of trying to control every variable, the Magnificent Bastard is a gambler who plays the odds and wins regularly."




Sure it kind of describes him...well, I mean...except for one of the most important parts: "wins regularly". Kubota's escape plan is the first plan that has worked (assuming V doesn't kill him soon) in all the years he's been trying to gain power.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 11:05 PM
If you take away Redcloak, Xykon appoints someone else to lead the hobgoblin army...like Jerix.

Kubota doesn't give any of his minions that much authority, because Kubota doesn't have that much authority to give. He's small beans. He still delegates though. He doesn't run all his businesses, or collect all his tributes etc.

Furthermore Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak. That's why MiTD will devour Redcloak at the first sign of treachery. What Xykon does do is hold the trump card. Redcloak needs him, and so long as Redcloak needs him, he will follow Xykon's orders. Xykon is well aware of that. So he delegates authority to Redcloak. Because even though he doesn't trust Redcloak, he knows that for the most part, he controls him and that Redcloak will not try anything until they reach their objective.

Assuming they do, all hell will probably break lose and I can't wait to see. :smallbiggrin:




Ahh yes, but without Redcloak how will the "use the gates to conquer the world" plot go into effect? Seeing as Redcloak is the only one who knows anything about it on Team Evil. Xykon gets too distracted with his own amusements rather than trying to see his plans being forwarded. Without Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't even become a lich, he would have died of old age (or some big damn hero) and went down as a small time mass murderer rather than lich overlord. Kubota on the otherhand was in control of his own position and resourses from the start. Therkla was his student and had never thought of usurping her master, rather trying to make sure that he and Elan could get away safely without anyone getting hurt, unlike a certain green second-in-command I can name:smallwink:

Corwin Weber
2008-09-18, 11:06 PM
The thing is, Kubota does really try to control as many variables as he possibly can.

I'd put him as more of the 'criminal mastermind' role instead of being an MB. He occasionally takes chances..... but not when he can avoid it, and when he does, he usually has some way to save his own skin as a backup.

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 11:08 PM
Ahh yes, but without Redcloak how will the "use the gates to conquer the world" plot go into effect? Seeing as Redcloak is the only one who knows anything about it on Team Evil. Xykon gets too distracted with his own amusements rather than trying to see his plans being forwarded. Without Redcloak, Xykon wouldn't even become a lich, he would have died of old age (or some big damn hero) and went down as a small time mass murderer rather than lich overlord. Kubota on the otherhand was in control of his own position and resourses from the start. Therkla was his student and had never thought of usurping her master, rather trying to make sure that he and Elan could get away safely without anyone getting hurt, unlike a certain green second-in-command I can name:smallwink:


And without Kubota's parent ever having been born, he never would have been born either and all his schemes would never have existed. What exactly is your point?

Recloak is an important resource. Kubota's money is an important resource. Kubota's nobility is an important resource. Strip important resources away, and schemes are harder to accomplish. Again...what's your point?

You seemed to have completely lost focus and gone away from the original point...which I don't quite remember in the first place anyway. :smalltongue:

I believe you claimed Xykon didn't use resources. I condradicted you. After that...you seemed to go on a segue and I have no clue what happened.


P.S. Personally, I think you got confused when your started equating a resource like Redcloak with a resource like Therkla and comparing the two. Redcloak as a resource is well...much more valuable than Kubota himself. :smalltongue: You can't really equate him with anything on Kubota's side. Kubota is not in the same league as Xykon.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 11:17 PM
And without Kubota's parent ever having been born, he never would have been born either and all his schemes would never have existed. What exactly is your point?

You seemed to have completely lost focus and gone away from the original point...which I don't quite remember in the first place anyway. :smalltongue:

We were talking about resources I believe. After that...I have no clue what happened.



My point is that Xykon needs Redcloak far more than Redcloak needs him. Xykon wouldn't even be at his own position of power without Redcloak. Wheras Redcloak has been seen manipulating Xykon to stay longer in Azure City for his own reasons that Xykon probably wouldn't care for.However, Kubota was always a corrupt nobleman with his own army, and got rid of any loose ends that would prove devestating to him rather than humoring said loose ends. He doesn't need to depend on Therkla as much as Xykon needs to depend on Redcloak, and if Xykon replaced Redcloak with Jerix (who has NO information whatsoever about the gates), that would only lead to having to find another 17th level cleric for the ritual to destroy/open the gates. A magnificent bastard has caution and a process of "thinking things through".

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 11:19 PM
My point is that Xykon needs Redcloak far more than Redcloak needs him. Xykon wouldn't even be at his own position of power without Redcloak. Wheras Redcloak has been seen manipulating Xykon to stay longer in Azure City for his own reasons that Xykon probably wouldn't care for.However, Kubota was always a corrupt nobleman with his own army, and got rid of any loose ends that would prove devestating to him rather than humoring said loose ends. He doesn't need to depend on Therkla as much as Xykon needs to depend on Redcloak, and if Xykon replaced Redcloak with Jerix (who has NO information whatsoever about the gates), that would only lead to having to find another 17th level cleric for the ritual to destroy/open the gates. A magnificent bastard has caution and a process of "thinking things through".



Just repasting something I edited into my previous post.


P.S. Personally, I think you got confused when your started equating a resource like Redcloak with a resource like Therkla and comparing the two. Redcloak as a resource is well...much more valuable than Kubota himself. :smalltongue: You can't really equate him with anything on Kubota's side. Kubota is not in the same league as Xykon.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 11:23 PM
Just repasting something I edited into my previous post.


P.S. Personally, I think you got confused when your started equating a resource like Redcloak with a resource like Therkla and comparing the two. Redcloak as a resource is well...much more valuable than Kubota himself. :smalltongue: You can't really equate him with anything on Kubota's side. Kubota is not in the same league as Xykon.



I never said Kubota was in the same league as Xykon, but Kubota is a magnificent bastard, wheras Xykon is just a bastard. Xykon doesn't use a strategy other than shock and awe, he believes that there is a level of force in which no strategy can defeat, and therefore he tries to get to that level of force. Kubota however couldn't be a villian if it weren't for being a magnificent bastard, since he is physically incapable of fighting without using dirty, apprehended tricks to give him the edge, he can never be a villian of Xykon's calibur becuase he uses deciept and deception ( MB's weapons of choice) rather than magical nukes and flamethrowers........

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 11:24 PM
I never said Kubota was in the same league as Xykon, but Kubota is a magnificent bastard, wheras Xykon is just a bastard. Xykon doesn't use a strategy other than shock and awe, he believes that there is a level of force in which no strategy can defeat, and therefore he tries to get to that level of force. Kubota however couldn't be a villian if it weren't for being a magnificent bastard, since he is physically incapable of fighting without using dirty, apprehended tricks to give him the edge, he can never be a villian of Xykon's calibur becuase he uses deciept and deception ( MB's weapons of choice) rather than magical nukes and flamethrowers........


You're moving away from the point. I'm trying to understand why you are equating Therkla and Redcloak in terms of value. I'm still confused.

Let's face it, if Kubota had a resource like Redcloak, he wouldn't toss it aside, even if it inconvenienced him every so often, which is why I'm confused that you look well upon Kubota for tossing her aside but poorly upon Xykon for exerting control over Redcloak, but not tossing him aside.

paladinofshojo
2008-09-18, 11:27 PM
You're moving away from the point. I'm trying to understand why you are equating Therkla and Redcloak in terms of value. I'm still confused.

Becuase minions are apparently resources remember.....asides my main point is that Kubota is a magnificent bastard, everything else is simply commentary supporting my point



Let's face it, if Kubota had a resource like Redcloak, he wouldn't toss it aside, even if it inconvenienced him every so often, which is why I'm confused that you look well upon Kubota for tossing her aside but poorly upon Xykon for exerting control over Redcloak, but not tossing him aside.

If he had a resource like Redcloak, he probably would have become lord of Azure City right now, therefore, it would be in the plot's best interest to give him a minion he could control more easier.

Theodoriph
2008-09-18, 11:33 PM
Yes minions are resources. But resources have different value. 1 copper piece is a resource. 1 platinum piece is a resource. Would you trade 1 copper piece for 1 platinum piece?


Of course not.


Likewise Therkla is a resource.

Redcloak is a resource.

Would you trade Redcloak for Therkla.

Again, of course not (if you were sensible).

Therkla is nowhere near as valuable as Redcloak.

And yet you're looking at the two situations as if they are the same.

If Xykon killed Redcloak, that would not be equivalent to Kubota killing Therkla.

Kubota did the smart thing. He killed someone who had little value left to him.

Xykon would be doing the stupid thing, killing someone who still has a great deal of value.

Resources are all about value.

You suggested that Xykon used brute strength and Kubota used resources. You were incorrect. Xykon uses many resources from his own powers, to Redcloak, to his hobgoblin army etc.

That was my point way back when. After that you segued, and I still have no clue what the point of your segue was.




Of course my original point was that Kubota is not a magnificent bastard. And he still isn't. A magnificent bastard is a combination of many things, one of those being a chessmaster. Kubota is not a chessmaster. Years upon years of futility does not = a chessmaster. It does not equal a magnificent bastard.

Kubota's escape plan...is probably like the first thing that's gone right for him in probably...oh...15 years or so (or however long he's been trying to seize power...probably at least a few years). And what's worse...it had to happen after his original plan to kill the Katos was foiled...so even then, it was really a failure.

Awe inspiring villains don't fail and fail and fail and fail and fail and fail.


I'd have to agree with one of the previous poster's assessment. He does fit quite more snugly into the Smug Snake trope.




For reference: Smug Snake

They're well dressed, impeccably groomed, always sarcastic and condescending, and they love smirking smugly from their Slouch Of Villainy as the puppets dance around them. Everything needed to be a Magnificent Bastard, right? Wrong!

It takes more than looks and disdain to make a Magnificent Bastard, and the Smug Snake is missing that certain je ne sais quoi, leaving them more as a Jerkass or The Libby with delusions of grandeur than a truly awe inspiring villain.

The best way to describe the Smug Snake is as a wannabe Magnificent Bastard. Something about them just doesn't "click" as Magnificent. Maybe they don't actually succeed at their manipulations (rare) (*cough Kubota *cough*), or their actor fails to live up to the role. More often than not, the writer is trying too hard to foist this character as a Magnificent Bastard, and rather than creating a character the audience just loves to hate, they just hate him with a passion to rival The Scrappy and The Wesley.

Occasionally he is made expressly to get the above reaction. With a combination of PR and Kick The Dog moments they'll get their way and nothing will get them to stop smirking and taunting the rest of the cast. This is someone the author wants us to hate, and we do. In other words, they're what a Designated Antagonist wants to be when they grow up.

When a Smug Snake attempts the Hannibal Lecture, it just feels off. Why in the world is the hero or heroine listening to this guy question their values and morality when it's obvious he doesn't care other than to screw with them? A Magnificent Bastard pulls this off with charisma. He either believes or is dang good in pretending he believes what he's saying. A Smug Snake is just taking advantage of the fact that the heroes are incredibly insecure.

They're usually protected from the heroes either by having the law on their side, a position of authority, or the heroes' own moral code (*cough* Hinjo *cough*). A good amount of Blackmail and scheming can go into it too. Expect them to lose said protection down the line, usually due to their own incompetence and greed. Despite their plot induced immunity, they're the likeliest to have something truly poetically awful happen to them.

NephandiMan
2008-09-19, 12:19 AM
He's beyond that. He's now a serial dog rapist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoralEventHorizon).

Theodoriph
2008-09-19, 01:01 AM
And as an aside, this cunning genius that everyone keeps going on about. I don't see it.

Daimyo Kubota's grand plan originally was to abandon a fortified defensive position, assassinate Hinjo during the battle, and then try to take a fortified defensive position (Azure City) out of the hands of an epic level lich, a couple other high level characters and 20k or so remaining hobgoblins with a few thousand men (at most) beholden to him and his allies.

Yeah.....that would have turned out great. A mastermind he is. :smalltongue:

Xykon could have wiped them out all by himself.



P.S. Kubota only has one ship (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html)...so I doubt he'd even have more than a couple hundred soldiers.

Corwin Weber
2008-09-19, 01:10 AM
And as an aside, this cunning genius that everyone keeps going on about. I don't see it.

Daimyo Kubota's grand plan originally was to abandon a fortified defensive position, assassinate Hinjo during the battle, and then try to take a fortified defensive position (Azure City) out of the hands of an epic level lich, a couple other high level characters and a horde of hobgoblins with the armies of him and a couple of other nobles.

Yeah.....that would have turned out great. A mastermind he is. :smalltongue:

I think what people are reacting to is the level of preparation he has when everything hits the fan..... how good he is at covering himself. He's every bit as paranoid as Shojo was, but with regard to protecting his power and influence rather than protecting himself from assassination. (Although there's a fair bit of that as well.)

Theodoriph
2008-09-19, 01:21 AM
I think what people are reacting to is the level of preparation he has when everything hits the fan..... how good he is at covering himself. He's every bit as paranoid as Shojo was, but with regard to protecting his power and influence rather than protecting himself from assassination. (Although there's a fair bit of that as well.)


That doesn't qualify him to be an MB though. Also, I'm not really convinced as to his level of preparation. He knew Therkla was going to betray him. So he prepared the poison ring. It's not like she betrayed him out of the blue and he just so happened to carry the ring around and drink antitoxin every hour in case of such an event. Also maxing your AC is a sensible thing to do before heading into battle.

Really...the only prepatory thing that would be mildly impressive was if he told Therkla not to take Great Fortitude in case he wanted to poison her later in case she betrayed him. However, Great Fortitude is a bad feat to take and so he should have recommended she not take it anyway. Since we're relying on her interpretation, this one's up in the air.



As an aside, he's not very good at covering himself. The only reason he isn't in jail is because Hinjo is LG. If Hinjo were virtually any other alignment (LN excepted), he'd likely have been taken care of [this slots in very well with smug snake].


Shojo wasn't paranoid. When they're actually trying to kill you, it's not paranoia :smallwink:

Axl_Rose
2008-09-19, 01:50 AM
I can't help but feel that Quar will be the one to rise on top, ultimately backstabbing Kubota in 600 in a "oh wow" moment.

Kai Maera
2008-09-19, 02:24 AM
Kubota is hardly a magnificent bastard. He's a doomed man, and there's no doubt that he's screwed. I just hope Elan gets to impale him on the sword via natural 20.

David Argall
2008-09-19, 02:44 AM
I think Nale would fall under that catogory more

Nale is the mere Smug Snake, the MB wantabe. His evil plans fall apart disastrously for him. Our MB can have failures, but like Kubota here, he has ways to recover or escape from them. Nale just ends up in jail, again.

Damaris
2008-09-19, 05:07 AM
No, no, I refuse to call him a MB, he's a Smug Snake, because the audiance doesn't love to hate him, they just hate him.

Hey, speak for yourself! ^^

Knaight
2008-09-19, 08:09 AM
He falls short of magnificent bastardom because of who actually has that title. Namely redcloak, who is far more impressive than Kubota, and frankly Shojo was so much more impressive that he just can't have the title due to competition. He would look pretty impressive if we hadn't seen redcloak and Shojo, but we did, so he doesn't.

Emo Samurai
2008-09-19, 08:31 AM
What really defines magnificent bastards for me is their habitual use of Xanatos Gambits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit). These aren't just endless failsafes; these are plans that benefit from failures in their own steps. Kubota does NOT benefit from his own failures. He just fails.

Zolem
2008-09-19, 08:36 AM
Of course my original point was that Kubota is not a magnificent bastard. And he still isn't. A magnificent bastard is a combination of many things, one of those being a chessmaster. Kubota is not a chessmaster. Years upon years of futility does not = a chessmaster. It does not equal a magnificent bastard.

Kubota's escape plan...is probably like the first thing that's gone right for him in probably...oh...15 years or so (or however long he's been trying to seize power...probably at least a few years). And what's worse...it had to happen after his original plan to kill the Katos was foiled...so even then, it was really a failure.

Awe inspiring villains don't fail and fail and fail and fail and fail and fail.

I'd have to agree with one of the previous poster's assessment. He does fit quite more snugly into the Smug Snake trope.

For reference: Smug Snake

They're well dressed, impeccably groomed, always sarcastic and condescending, and they love smirking smugly from their Slouch Of Villainy as the puppets dance around them. Everything needed to be a Magnificent Bastard, right? Wrong!

It takes more than looks and disdain to make a Magnificent Bastard, and the Smug Snake is missing that certain je ne sais quoi, leaving them more as a Jerkass or The Libby with delusions of grandeur than a truly awe inspiring villain.

The best way to describe the Smug Snake is as a wannabe Magnificent Bastard. Something about them just doesn't "click" as Magnificent. Maybe they don't actually succeed at their manipulations (rare) (*cough Kubota *cough*), or their actor fails to live up to the role. More often than not, the writer is trying too hard to foist this character as a Magnificent Bastard, and rather than creating a character the audience just loves to hate, they just hate him with a passion to rival The Scrappy and The Wesley.

Occasionally he is made expressly to get the above reaction. With a combination of PR and Kick The Dog moments they'll get their way and nothing will get them to stop smirking and taunting the rest of the cast. This is someone the author wants us to hate, and we do. In other words, they're what a Designated Antagonist wants to be when they grow up.

When a Smug Snake attempts the Hannibal Lecture, it just feels off. Why in the world is the hero or heroine listening to this guy question their values and morality when it's obvious he doesn't care other than to screw with them? A Magnificent Bastard pulls this off with charisma. He either believes or is dang good in pretending he believes what he's saying. A Smug Snake is just taking advantage of the fact that the heroes are incredibly insecure.

They're usually protected from the heroes either by having the law on their side, a position of authority, or the heroes' own moral code (*cough* Hinjo *cough*). A good amount of Blackmail and scheming can go into it too. Expect them to lose said protection down the line, usually due to their own incompetence and greed. Despite their plot induced immunity, they're the likeliest to have something truly poetically awful happen to them.

Thank you for posting the details. Realy, I think most people don't know about this trope, so they just file him under Magnificent Bastard. I can't wait untill the poetic justice hits after he makes himself loose his protection.

Querzis
2008-09-19, 09:01 AM
What really defines magnificent bastards for me is their habitual use of Xanatos Gambits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit). These aren't just endless failsafes; these are plans that benefit from failures in their own steps. Kubota does NOT benefit from his own failures. He just fails.

What make you think that? Just wait until the next few comics, we'll see if he fall short or if he turn this to his advantage.

By the way theodoric, you do realize that the difference between a Magnificient bastard and a smug snake is just that people find one cool while the Smug Snake is not? And you do realize that, since every character can be found cool or uncool by different people, its pretty much just opinions. Most of the Magnificient bastard are also on the Smug Snake page. So basically, if you agree that Kubota fit as a smug snake, anyone who like him would obviously place him on the magnificient bastard page. Magnificient bastard and Smug snake are essentially the same thing, it just depends on who you ask.

T.Titan
2008-09-19, 09:06 AM
Meh, IMO Kubota gets away with it because of plot armour more then anything else... he's the "vagrant boats Azure City arc" villain, his defeat signaling the end of that arc... nothing magnificent about that.

Theodoriph
2008-09-19, 11:07 AM
What make you think that? Just wait until the next few comics, we'll see if he fall short or if he turn this to his advantage.

By the way theodoric, you do realize that the difference between a Magnificient bastard and a smug snake is just that people find one cool while the Smug Snake is not? And you do realize that, since every character can be found cool or uncool by different people, its pretty much just opinions. Most of the Magnificient bastard are also on the Smug Snake page. So basically, if you agree that Kubota fit as a smug snake, anyone who like him would obviously place him on the magnificient bastard page. Magnificient bastard and Smug snake are essentially the same thing, it just depends on who you ask.


No there is a much greater difference than whether someone finds them cool or not. There's the whole question of effectiveness. A magnificent bastard will always regularly succeed. A smug snake can be a complete failure (like Kubota) or can be someone who succeeds (not like Kubota) but who has the wrong attitude/coolness factor/je ne sais quoi.

Magnificent Bastard:

the Magnificent Bastard is a gambler who plays the odds and wins regularly.

Smug Snake:

The best way to describe the Smug Snake is as a wannabe Magnificent Bastard. Something about them just doesn't "click" as Magnificent. Maybe they don't actually succeed at their manipulations (rare), or their actor fails to live up to the role.



Kubota does not succeed regularly. He fails and fails and fails and fails and has been failing and failing for years and years and years.

LordVader
2008-09-19, 11:15 AM
I would rule in favour of Smug Snake. Kubota's more or less totally mucked it up this time. He's left witnesses alive, killed someone who was still basically loyal to him, and is assuming the success of a plan that has already failed.

No, he isn't.
Remember, Kubota's probably popular with quite a number of the people. If Hinjo moves against one of their top Lords with no more evidence than that of an adventurer who had even been tried as a criminal in an Azure City court, and his two companions, Kubota could quite easily claim that Hinjo's just trying to pick off the nobility so he can rule unquestioned and unchallenged.

Hinjo can't just remove Kubota, period.

I'd say that while Kubota may not overall be a MB, this is the biggest moment of Magnificent Bastardry in the comic to date, I think, just given the horrible, horrible nature of the choice Elan is presented with and what happens even when he tries to save the person. Even Xykon massacring the entire Sapphire Guard and throwing O-chul into a shark tank every day doesn't even come close.

So, while Kubota may not be a MB, this is certainly the biggest moment of Magnificent Bastardy we've seen so far.

metroid_dragon
2008-09-19, 11:18 AM
Ignoring the debate on the definition of the proper terms for a minute to post something relevant to the original intention of the topic:

Yes, Kubota has become the first villian in OotS that I actually hate. I want him to die. Every other villian is still awesome. Xykon is hilarious, Red Cloak is awesome and actually has justification for what he does, The Linear Guild are all awesome (and the lame ones usually die pretty quick).

Kubota has surpassed them all in goals of actually being hated.

Friv
2008-09-19, 11:27 AM
No, he isn't.
Remember, Kubota's probably popular with quite a number of the people. If Hinjo moves against one of their top Lords with no more evidence than that of an adventurer who had even been tried as a criminal in an Azure City court, and his two companions, Kubota could quite easily claim that Hinjo's just trying to pick off the nobility so he can rule unquestioned and unchallenged.

Hinjo can't just remove Kubota, period.

I'm going to have to disagree, there. Hinjo has the word of a demon (admittedly pretty poor evidence), along with that of Elan (mediocre evidence) and two Azure City nobles who Kubota tried to kill (great evidence). Not only that, but they're nobles who became nobles for their constant heroic defense of the city, which is the sort of thing that gets real crowd support (enough that Kubota recognized them as the next major threat to his rule if Hinjo was gone). Also, there are two dead samurai corpses that belong to Kubota in the room, assuming the ninja are untraceable.

In most places, having several witnesses and material evidence is enough to get you doomed.


I'd say that while Kubota may not overall be a MB, this is the biggest moment of Magnificent Bastardry in the comic to date, I think, just given the horrible, horrible nature of the choice Elan is presented with and what happens even when he tries to save the person. Even Xykon massacring the entire Sapphire Guard and throwing O-chul into a shark tank every day doesn't even come close.

So, while Kubota may not be a MB, this is certainly the biggest moment of Magnificent Bastardy we've seen so far.

Ehn. I don't think we were supposed to applaud Kubota's guile, though. We're just suppose to hate his smug assurance that everything's going great. I should specify that I think he's a Smug Snake deliberately on the part of the author, as opposed to an accidental one.

Evil DM Mark3
2008-09-19, 11:29 AM
As far as I am concerned whilst his Bastarditude is well above critical mass, his Magnificence is sadly lacking. Remember that the status of MB is one of the highest a Villain may reach. Maybe someday, but for now he is, in my eyes, just (well, just as in not a MB) a Chessmaster. (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster?from=Main.Chessmaster)

krossbow
2008-09-19, 11:31 AM
I'm sorry, but i actually LIKE kubota. He's a villian I can really get behind.



After tons of idiots who power through situations purely with brute force, its nice to see someone try something different.




Killing therkla and jerking Elan around just makes me like him more as a villian.

Theodoriph
2008-09-19, 11:39 AM
Ignoring the debate on the definition of the proper terms for a minute to post something relevant to the original intention of the topic:

Yes, Kubota has become the first villian in OotS that I actually hate. I want him to die. Every other villian is still awesome. Xykon is hilarious, Red Cloak is awesome and actually has justification for what he does, The Linear Guild are all awesome (and the lame ones usually die pretty quick).

Kubota has surpassed them all in goals of actually being hated.



Really? The first villain I hated was Pizza. He killed Milk Duds. :smalleek:

Mr. Bean
2008-09-19, 11:46 AM
The best thing about him is that he seems to walk away out of every situation unharmed with a smirk on his face as if he just conquered the world. It does not matter to me if he actually lost his entire ship, because all I think is that what he does is totally badass. It's not about the ninjas and samurai he lost, it's not about the loss of a former ally, it's not about the failure of a plan, it's all about making the heroes think he did something extremely bad to them. You might not fully understand me, because it is quite difficult to explain.

Another thing that might be hard to explain is that Kubota is a villain relatively as evil and annoying as Xykon, simply because of the situation both he is and the Order are in. Versus Xykon, OotS had their adventuring party complete, an easy-to-defend position and an entire army at their disposal (they lost, but that's not the point). Against Kubota, they barely have half of their party left to face him, relatively as hard to beat as Xykon.

In the Order of the Stick, you don't always have to look at facts. If the story makes you entirely feel Kubota wins (even if he lost and lost and lost and lost and fails and fails and fails and fails for years and years and years and years), then he already is awesome to me.

Sebastian
2008-09-19, 11:47 AM
Magnificient bastards don't win by Just trying ONE uber plan.


A true magnificent bastard never really lose, even when they lose they someway win. kubota plans are thought so that even if he win he would have lost. Examples: let the really bad guy conquer the city just to put hinjio out of the way, let kill two member of a rival noble house in a way that make obvious it was my doing so that the other noble houses will never ever trust me again and assassinate me at the first chance and in a way that make everyone despise and hate me (and not in a good way), let deal with devils/demons to conquer the power so they will be the real power after I "win".

Kubota is not a magnificent bastard, he is a smug snake the only thing to his favor is his genre-savyness and his money.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-19, 12:09 PM
He seems to have a back up plan for a back up plan, as well as the uncanny ability to exploit combat rules against REAL ADVENTURERS even though he's supposedly "just" an NPC......Seriously what is there that DOESN'T make him look like a magnificent bastard?

Seriously, people, are we going to declare every villain a Magnificent Bastard whenever they do something even remotely cool? Yes, Kubota is a bastard, and nasty, and so forth. But he's several Xanatos gambits away from commencing to aspire to magnificence.

Light Yagami. Petyr Baelish. Keyser Soze. Havelock Vetinari. Dogbert.

Kubota can't hold a candle to any of them.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-19, 12:55 PM
And as an aside, this cunning genius that everyone keeps going on about. I don't see it.

Indeed. What's worse, he's been seen in his act, and there are three witnesses, two of which nobles.

Kubota's plans so far:
(1) Act all snooty against Hinjo. Yup, he's got that down.
(2) Run away when Azure City is under attack. Okay, it worked, but that's not very magnificent.
(3) Kill Hinjo through Grand Larceny Dude. FAIL.
(4) Kill Hinjo through two ninjas during battle. FAIL.
(5) Prevent upstart soldiers from becoming nobles. FAIL.
(6) Kill Hinjo with sea trolls and/or Therkla. FAIL.
(7) Get Hinjo killed by orcs on that island. FAIL.
(8) When Hinjo is distracted through happenstance (which he didn't plan), kill the Kato family. FAIL.
(9) Be seen on the crime scene as the hero who defeated the Kato's killers. FAIL.
(10) Kill his own minion for deserting him. Okay, he did that. That isn't magnificent either.

So thus far, Kubota is mostly a magnificent failure. His plans are obvious, he can't xanatos his way out of a paper bag, and his success rate is abysmal.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-19, 01:09 PM
So thus far, Kubota is mostly a magnificent failure. His plans are obvious, he can't xanatos his way out of a paper bag, and his success rate is abysmal.

Indeed. Magnificent Bastards are only magnificent because they, you know, win. Or at least set up a really bad situation for them such that they break even. Kubota has yet to manage any of those things. Right now, he's just a bastard who thinks well of him self and managed to get away.

Now, depending on where Qar went, and what his actual motives are in working with Kutoba, he might have the potential to become one soon.

Sebastian
2008-09-19, 01:18 PM
Technically he didn't qualify because he was not a villain, but IMHO the only real Magnificent Bastard in Oots was Shojo. :)

chiasaur11
2008-09-19, 01:23 PM
Seriously, people, are we going to declare every villain a Magnificent Bastard whenever they do something even remotely cool? Yes, Kubota is a bastard, and nasty, and so forth. But he's several Xanatos gambits away from commencing to aspire to magnificence.

Light Yagami. Petyr Baelish. Keyser Soze. Havelock Vetinari. Dogbert.

Kubota can't hold a candle to any of them.

Man, I'd love to see Kubota against Vetinari.

Just because Vetinari utterly crushing somebody is always fun to watch.

David Argall
2008-09-19, 02:42 PM
Kubota does not succeed regularly. He fails and fails and fails and fails and has been failing and failing for years and years and years.

We do not know that, and we have reason to assume the contrary. Kubota was first seen less than a year ago. We do know that at that time he was the leading noble in the city. He simply could not have been failing for year after year and still be holding that position. By contrast, he could have easily have achieved the position only recently, after a series of successes. The position of leading noble quite often has quite a bit of turn-over in any case.
So we have the possible scenario that Kubota was just one of many nobles until he was contacted by Qarr. With fiendish help, he rose to become top noble just about the time of the battle. Unproved? definitely, but it fits the facts a lot better than the idea Kubota has a long history of failure.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-19, 04:21 PM
We do not know that, and we have reason to assume the contrary.

Occam wants a word with you.

krossbow
2008-09-19, 04:22 PM
Occam wants a word with you.



I try to avoid that guy; i heard he carries a razor.

Zolem
2008-09-19, 06:29 PM
A true magnificent bastard never really lose, even when they lose they someway win. kubota plans are thought so that even if he win he would have lost. Examples: let the really bad guy conquer the city just to put hinjio out of the way, let kill two member of a rival noble house in a way that make obvious it was my doing so that the other noble houses will never ever trust me again and assassinate me at the first chance and in a way that make everyone despise and hate me (and not in a good way), let deal with devils/demons to conquer the power so they will be the real power after I "win".

Kubota is not a magnificent bastard, he is a smug snake the only thing to his favor is his genre-savyness and his money.

All excelent points. A MB is self made and has a setup of "IF Plan A fails, have it fail so goal G is obtained."

AceOfFools
2008-09-19, 07:27 PM
All excelent points. A MB is self made and has a setup of "IF Plan A fails, have it fail so goal G is obtained."

While I don't feel that Kubota qualifies as a MB, note that his failure on Orc Island could also be seen as a test of Therkla's loyalty, and thus not dismissed as a total failure.

He also goes on to use her failure to motivate her to set up the scene that unleashed big red on Hinjo. Orc Island isn't as big a failure as what came before.

Granted, this line or reasoning assumes that he's misrepresenting his true feelings in 562 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html), which given how easily pinky goes from falsehood to falsehood in the recent couple doesn't seem impossible.

What I really like about Kubota is that when things go terribly for him, he smiles and puts the next step of his plan into action.

He's still lacks the style, success rate, and popularity to be a Magnificent Bastard, but he wants the title even more than most other villians.

Zolem
2008-09-20, 10:59 AM
Which is a Smug Snake, a villain that is very close to MB but not quite there.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-21, 03:25 AM
Hah. Today's comic provides further proof of Kubota's complete and utter lack of magnificence.
:smallsmile:

Jubal_Barca
2008-09-21, 06:27 AM
Vetinari isn't a villain. He's ubercool and my favourite character in discworld, but villain he most certainly is not.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-21, 06:44 AM
Vetinari isn't a villain.

The rest of the city thinks differently. In fact, it would seem that everybody hates him except for Carrot.

hamishspence
2008-09-21, 11:51 AM
We never see him as a real antagonist, which means, in the D&D sense, he is not a villain.

The Hero is never specifically out to thwart Vetinari's plans, or vice-versa. Closest was the Silver Horde in The Last Hero, and that is more a case of heroes turned villains, who think better of it in the last seconds.

Lowkey
2008-09-21, 11:59 AM
We are 3, almost 4 books into a 9+ book series. With that much time left I easily bet that someone will come along and top Kabuto. So no, I won't say he is the biggest magnificent bastard.

hamishspence
2008-09-21, 12:03 PM
Kubota needs to show more magnificence, as it stands he's closer to Smug Snake.