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Vandin
2008-09-19, 08:59 AM
I'm about to end up actually playing a game for the first time, as I've been stuck on the other side of the screen, and I'm hoping for some advice :smallsmile:

The game is still a bit off, but here's what I know:
3.5e, it's an upgraded 2e module, which is "basically just a giant dungeon crawl"
Starting at ECL 3, few notable houserules: SP Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm), max hp for first 3 levels, double skillpoints. A few high-cheese-potential spells banned, Celerity, Shivering touch, etc
High powerlevel. 44pb to start, and anything WoTC published is fair game, homebrew/etc is open to discussion
Game will likely end in the upper teens/low epic range
It's a fairly deadly module, but longterm survivors end up getting large power increases that are not given to new arrivals/Nth characters
"It's better to fail some savings throws than to make them"
And it's apparently based in a splinter of the Plane of Chaos or somesuch.

Also, my DM-to-be was minorly bragging that he's never seen a decent bard, or even had one survive past 3 sessions (in any game) without dying. So, I've got two ideas.

Idea #1: Bard, meeting his unintentional challenge head on by playing as a daredevil-type, Han Solo meets Horatio Caine. Perform (Witty Oneliner) with masterwork Sunglasses mandatory.

I'm honestly really unfamiliar with bards, haven't actually used one in my campaign yet, so I'm hoping there's a function I can fill beyond "Hey, guys, don't forget the bonus from my bardsong!", while still fufiling the "do not die, ever" bit. The extent of my actions being "I continue singing" and possibly randomly attack does not excite me, so if that's the best that can be done..

Idea #2: The ultimate in party preservation. If the module is designed to be killer, and rewards those that stay alive, the best possible option might just be to prevent anyone from dying. Ever. Bonuses to saves through aura (Marshall?) or buffs seem mandatory, except for the DM's comment about not wanting to make all of the saves.

Beyond that, healing and raise dead seem fairly important, which points to cleric. Delay Death (iirc? prevents death from hp loss at -10) and Revify (I think, SpC maybe, only works on first round after death) seem extremely handy, but they're both higher level spells.. Possibly focusing on DMM: Persist with useful group buffs?

One other note about the houserules/clerics/SP Variant, Domain spells still function as normal. One domain slot per level, one use of the slot per day.

So, them's my ideas. The floodgates of broken-ness are pretty much open, though I'm 100% sure he'd hit me with a book if I tried Pun Pun or Planar Shepard, or anything else that mainly reduces the game to "me".

Turning it over to the more experienced gurus, or perhaps just anyone with a wild suggestion, what would you do? :smallcool:

Baron Corm
2008-09-19, 09:09 AM
Bards get a pretty useful spell list. For staying alive, they get the cure spells, and for being useful, they have things like grease and buffing spells. The only problem is that they get very few of them, at a reduced rate. I'm sure you could create a worthy character if you went over the spell list, and went on the wizards boards and found that "Inspire Courage Optimization" link.

There's also that druid/bard PrC, which lets you be a bard, but also lets you be a druid, which makes you instantly more powerful, and I think the class features are pretty good too, but I don't remember what they are. Fochulyan Lyricist or something.

Edit: And you can intentionally fail any saving throw you want, so don't worry about getting your saves "too high". I've also heard good things about the Sublime Chord PrC. I don't remember much about it though... I think it improves your bardic spellcasting.

Edit2: Fochlucan Lyrist. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) And from what I gather, sublime chord gets the bard 9th level spells, but doesn't advance music.

Vandin
2008-09-19, 09:13 AM
Yeah, I know you can fail saves, but I'm imagining this module as some sort of crazy laboratory...

"Okay, you have to drink this potion or the door won't open. Roll a save."

Inspire Courage was my main idea for bard, possibly with that one feat/feature/something which converted it into d6 elemental damage.

Baron Corm
2008-09-19, 09:27 AM
Here ya go. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=816095) I believe the feat you mentioned was Dragonfire Inspiration, it's in there.

Ascension
2008-09-19, 09:34 AM
Okay, the first concept sounds more fun, so let's talk about bard optimization...

What do you want? They've already given you advice for an inspirational Bard, but you can also build a pretty good melee Bard (Snowflake Wardance!), especially if you dip Crusader. If you were to get high enough level you could even make a nice caster Bard via the aforementioned Sublime Chord, but that won't help you here. Fochlucan Lyrist is a trap. Stay away. It's a good concept, but the execution is... not good.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-19, 09:47 AM
Check out Crusader from Tome of Battle if you have access to it. That's basically as unbreakable as they get, and you'll be able to buff, pump up, rescue, and otherwise awesomify your fellow party members with your white raven manuevers. You can reflavor it all to witty one liners if you want and even spring for the perform if it's really important to you. You could also multiclass bard for a 1 level dip if you want to keep some actual spellcasting (clw) and bard song.

You could say your witty one liner to buff the party for 3 rounds, then procede to kick ass for those rounds.

playswithfire
2008-09-19, 09:55 AM
You may want to consider the Bardic Badass build (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=795369); it pretty much includes most of what's been said here and also gives gear recommendations (for higher levels, admittedly)

Hal
2008-09-19, 11:04 AM
Do you want straight bard or a bard multiclass?

Bard/Crusader has been mentioned, but Bard/Paladin isn't bad either. Getting your Cha to saves is a beautiful thing for a Bard.

The question is, what do you want your Bard to be good at? Melee or Ranged combat? Battlefield control? Skill mastery? Everything?

Another_Poet
2008-09-19, 11:19 AM
If you're going straight bard then I strongly recommend building your character as an archer. Put most of your points into Dex and Cha. Your high AC and perfect shooting skill will be appreciated by your allies, and you'll always be toward the back iof the group. I managed to go through half of Shackled City without taking a scratch with such a build, and still be a helpful combatant.

Any left over points just dump into Con. Str is not so good for an archer (I know, composite blah blah, just wait till you find a flaming bow or something), Int won't hlp you stay alive (I assume there's an actual rogue to do traps) and Wisdom is nice but not needed. So two main stats and everybody-loves-con, now you're a gish skillmonkey with high AC, and you can use cure spells on yourself.

You just won D&D.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-19, 11:27 AM
A moderately optimized melee bard build. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=17445)

at yoru level, you can take more feats, like Lingering Song, Versitile Spellcaster, and Haunting Melody

Ascension
2008-09-19, 11:30 AM
Alternatively, if all you're interested in is personal survival, that is the one and only thing that Monks do fairly well. You could run away quite quickly and you'd have all good saves. Come to think of it, though, Favored Souls also get all good saves, and you'd have cure spells that way...

Still, the quipping bard sounds more fun.

Heliomance
2008-09-19, 12:29 PM
The standard "good bard" build is, I believe, Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Gets good spellcasting, nice inspire courage, and a few other goodies.

Keld Denar
2008-09-19, 12:38 PM
If you want maximum survivability, melee is probably not the way to go. Archer bard would be pretty useful, especially with Dragonfire Inspiration. You'll be putting out more damage per round than any blaster sorcerer would with all those d6s flying around.

Caster bard with Sublime Chord would probably be the most powerful. Something like Bard9/Virt1/SC2/Virt8 is a pretty iconic build. Ends up with 9th level wizard spells, and still pretty decent bardery.

If you had a reach weapon like a glaive, you could probably pull off a PAing bardic baddass using normal IC. Pump it as high as you can, and you should be able to PA for near full BAB at any given time. Use the crusader stub and you'll have some decent survivability with your healing strikes, as long as you don't try to play meat shield or hero. Bard4/Crus16 with Song of the White Raven would be pretty awesome. I wouldn't use Dragonfire Inspiraiton with this build, as you'd benefit more from the bonus to hit.

Snowflake Wardance is a trap in most cases. It burns through too many bard song attempts to use regularly, and you can only use a light slashing weapon. That means no power attack, which is a sad thing. You also can't duel wield with it, which would be your only other option other than PA.

If you wanted something a little more abusive, you could go Bard4/Warblade12/BloodstormBlade4, not quite in that order. This combines the best of melee bard, but at a range. Now you are less of a target because you aren't in melee range, but you are still a melee powerhouse and will probably do more damage than an archer bard would.

Any ideas you like that you might want more info on?

mabriss lethe
2008-09-19, 01:57 PM
Knowledge devotion with a bard is phenominal.

Maybe a few levels of binder give you a leg up, alternately, you could take the bind vestige and related feats to give you a decent repertiore of abilities to which you usually wouldn't have access. I've never heard of dipping binder being a bad thing for any but the most specialized of builds.

only1doug
2008-09-19, 01:59 PM
Race: Silverbrow human (Dragon Magic Pg6).
Silverbrow humans get dragonblood subtype, Feather fall spell like ability (1/day + 1/day / 5 hit dice), No bonus skill points, disguise aptitude (+2 racial bonus and disguise is always a class skill)

Human Bonus Feat: Lingering Song: bardic music continues to affect listeners for 1 minute after they stop hearing it.

L1 feat: Dragonfire inspiration (Dragon Magic Pg17-18)
add 1d6 cold damage to all allies attacks.*

Spoiler 1 why cold damage
*cold damage is due to silverbrow humans being of silver dragon descent. the exact wording of dragonfire inspiration requires the draconic heritage feat to define the descent but any reasonable GM would interpret the racial descent from silver dragon as fitting the prerequisite.

Spoiler 2 how to get sonic damage
Rite of draconic affinity (Races of the Dragon Pg 59) can change your associated dragon type (and thus your damage type) but only to one that is within one step of your alignment. Sonic damage is associated with Battle dragons and Emerald dragons.
Emerald dragons are LN and thus incompatible with any chaotic bards.
Battle dragons are NG and could be associated with CG bards.

the rite requires the assistance of a dragon or half dragon of the appropriate type and costs 5000 gp.

you'll probably need to achieve this during gameplay as 5k gold and surviving a breath weapon could be tough on a L3 character.


L3 feat Extra Music: gain 4 more uses of bardic music.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-19, 02:32 PM
One very important thing that everyone's seemed to miss: You're using the spellpoints variant, so don't play a spontaneous caster! When using spellpoints every prepared caster is instead a Spirit Shaman, able to prepare one of every spell you think you'll need and spontaneously cast from that list. I'm currently playing in a game with spellpoints, and there's a bard, and he sucks because after a few spells he's completely spent. He's actually multiclassed into Warmage just to get more spellpoints/day. Bard is not a spellcasting class when using the spellpoint system.

My advice for this game specifically would be to play an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), since you'll already have access to nearly every spell at a lower than normal level (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=515321), and your number of spells known is only limited by how many times you can cast Secret Page (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1087361).

Say he's visited the Frog God's Fane, detailed in the Complete Scoundrel, to gain Skill Focus: Kn Religion for free. Go Archivist 3/ Church Inquisitor 2/ Divine Oracle 2/ Sacred Exorcist 1/ Divine Oracle +2/ Church Inquisitor +1/ Contemplative 9. For your Contemplative domains gained, pick domains with useful granted abilities such as Travel and Luck, since you'll have access to every domain spell in the game anyway. Get Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell by level 9. Otherwise you've got everything you'll need to be a Batman.

only1doug
2008-09-19, 02:50 PM
Stat Block.

in all these builds Wisdom is the dump stat, Force of personality will be your will save friend, you may want to take this as your L3 feat, if not then definitely take it at L6.

All builds have 2 Spellpoints at L3: bards suck at casting but you won't care if you use bardic music to add 1d6 of damage to all allies attacks for 1 minute (see lingering song above)

Bardic music 3/day (7/day with extra music feat)

Skills

choose From:
1 Perform: witty one liner:6
2 Appraise (Int),
3 Balance (Dex),
4 Bluff (Cha),
5 Climb (Str),
6 Concentration (Con),
7 Craft (Int),
8 Decipher Script (Int),
9 Diplomacy (Cha),
10 Disguise (Cha),
11 Escape Artist (Dex),
12 Gather Information (Cha),
13 Hide (Dex),
14 Jump (Str),
15 Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int),
16 Listen (Wis),
17 Move Silently (Dex),
18 Profession (Wis),
19 Sense Motive (Wis),
20 Sleight of Hand (Dex),
21 Spellcraft (Int),
22 Swim (Str),
23 Tumble (Dex),
24 Use Magic Device (Cha).
25 Speak Language (Int bonus starting + racial and common),


skill monkey


Str:8
Dex:18
Con:14
Int:18
Wis:8
Cha:14

Skills: choose 10 20 at 6 skillpoints (or 3 skillpoints for cross class skills)



Dexterous / Smart


Str:10
Dex:18
Con:16
Int:14
Wis:8
Cha:16


Skills: choose 8 16 at 6 skillpoints


Dex/cha/dumb


Str:12
Dex:18
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:8
Cha:18

Skills: choose 6 12 at 6 skillpoints


Ranged Bard


Str:14
Dex:18
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:8
Cha:16

high dex, good strength for composite longbow

Skills: choose 8 16 at 6 skillpoints


Bard Spells

Choose 3:
PHB:
Cure light wounds
sleep
Grease
Charm Person
Detect Secret Doors
Remove Fear

Spell Compendium:

only1doug
2008-09-19, 03:25 PM
Wealth by Level: L3=2700gp

You could start with a magic weapon and MW armour but i'd recommend MW weapon and magic armour so you have cash left for other things. (and armour helps you live)

Chain shirt +1 1,250gp

ranged weapon 377-802gp

choose 1
MW Longbow 375gp
MW Composite Longbow (+1str) 500gp
MW Composite Longbow (+2str) 600gp
MW Composite Longbow (+3str) 700gp
MW Composite Longbow (+4str) 800gp
40 arrows 2gp


MW Longsword 315gp

Keld Denar
2008-09-19, 03:32 PM
Lingering Song is pretty meh, if you ask me. The only reason to stop singing, EVER, is when you need to talk to people, when you need to cast spells, and when you need to be sneaky. Other than that, you can persist a bard song for as long as you are consious and not restricted from vocalization. That means you should, in most cases, continue a song from enounter to encounter, as this saves you the standard action at the start of combat to start a bard song. Now, if you want to do any of the 3 actions above, there are better alternatives than Lingering Song.

Melodic Casting allows you to cast spells while performing a bard song. This negates one of the reasons to stop a bard song, and is most useful, since casting is most likely the reason to break bard song. It also allows you to sub Perform for Concentration, thus essentially granting you an extra skill point per level (and 4 at 1st!) since you won't need Concentration to cast defensively any more.

Now, for sneaking, you have a couple of choices. First of all, don't sneak. This is seldom a good idea, because even if you aren't being totally stealthy, walking around with a neon sign procaiming "The adventures are here!" is generally not a good idea. That leave the other 2 options. Subsonics allows you to perform a bard song in below audible range. All the buffs, none of the noise. You essentially put out good vibes. The other alternative is telepathy, or performing in other peoples heads. The easiest way to do this is via a 1 level dip in Mindbender. Its a really really really easy PrC for a bard to qualify for, requiring only skill points and no feats, and advances casting. It doesn't advance bardic music though, so you'd have to factor that in to your final bard song level.

That only leaves talking as the reason you'd ever need to start a bard song. That's pretty obvious, and generally you aren't gonna be wanting to talk much while you are dungeon crawlings, and if you do, your party can maybe talk in your stead, or since you have perform: one liners, you could respond in converasion in short sarcastic remarks.

For inspiration, I highly suggest watching Army of Darkness, and any movie containing Segal, Van Dam, or Schwartzenager. Keep note though, that saying "I'll be back" when being reduced to negative HP will ensure you are on the receiving end of a Coup de Grace the next round!

only1doug
2008-09-19, 03:40 PM
Lingering Song is pretty meh, if you ask me. The only reason to stop singing, EVER, is when you need to talk to people, when you need to cast spells, and when you need to be sneaky. Other than that, you can persist a bard song for as long as you are consious and not restricted from vocalization. That means you should, in most cases, continue a song from enounter to encounter, as this saves you the standard action at the start of combat to start a bard song. Now, if you want to do any of the 3 actions above, there are better alternatives than Lingering Song.


In this case the OP wants to throw a one liner (perform: witty one liner) and have that be his bardic music effect, this makes Lingering Song necessary if he wants to have a benefit that lasts for more than 5 rounds.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-19, 04:09 PM
In this case the OP wants to throw a one liner (perform: witty one liner) and have that be his bardic music effect, this makes Lingering Song necessary if he wants to have a benefit that lasts for more than 5 rounds.

Not so, he could reel off one liners every round.


VS. headless horseman:

No good under pressure, he's lost his head.
...
That's no way to get ahead in life.
...
Looks like he'll never be the head of a major corporation.

monty
2008-09-19, 04:42 PM
Maybe he should add levels in Dashing Swordsman, then.

Flickerdart
2008-09-19, 05:06 PM
Maybe he should add levels in Dashing Swordsman, then.
Except that's not a real class.

monty
2008-09-19, 05:25 PM
Except that's not a real class.

Bah, details.

Ascension
2008-09-19, 05:32 PM
It's been homebrewed.

chiasaur11
2008-09-19, 06:03 PM
Except that's not a real class.

It will always be real...
in our hearts.

Vandin
2008-09-19, 06:17 PM
Dashing Swordsman was actually exactly what I had in mind, only with a more sarcastic/dry wit about it. Okay, lots of posts, so in rough order..

playswithfire - that build actually looks awesome, but 3 bard/17 crusader is getting a bit far away from bard :smallcool:

Multiclassing is cool, and I normally wouldn't complain about losing the bardic main-ness, except for also losing the ability to strike down my DM. At any rate, Paladin 2 seems like a pretty worthwhile dip.

Another Poet - that's about what my main thought was. Go with before-racials along the lines of 10/16/16/14/8/18, take Force of Personality to cover up that gaping hole and then grab a crossbow. Possibly describe this crossbow as being completely self contained, without any sort of visible ammo loading method. It's a blaster, see? Horrible, I know.

only1doug - don't have Dragon Magic, I'll see if I can find someone with a copy and see if the DM will bite.

Biffoniacus_Furiou - Oh, man. Archivist with DMM: Persist is like..the broken of both worlds? If the bard idea falls through, I'm going to have to take a really long (or short :smallcool:) look at that.

lussmanj - I'd considered melee being bad, but then I was thinking about whips. In theory, ending up with everything in range getting DFI'd and ending up prone isn't a bad deal. Also, what's Subsonics from?


iirc, Whip daggers can be used at 15' and still threaten, can you trip with them?

edit: Oh, yeah. Just wanted to say thanks for all the great ideas so far!

The Glyphstone
2008-09-19, 06:49 PM
Sadly, whips do not threaten within their reach. They can, however, be used to trip.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-19, 07:40 PM
If you want to use a whip, I'd suggest taking one level in Pryokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm) or one of its variants (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e). You can use Point-Blank Shot with the Fire Lash to always get +1 attack and damage, plus you can use any feats that are usable with a standard whip with it, such as Power Attack. It makes a Touch Attack so even power attacking for your full BAB you're almost guaranteed to hit, and it can be wielded two-handed. Leap Attack can also be used with a standard whip, and so with a fire lash as well. Note that any additional damage you deal, such as from power attack or inspire courage, is dealt as additional fire damage (or whatever type of damage the base weapon deals). Sonokineticist would probably be the best choice, since so few creatures are outright immune to sonic damage.

A Spring-Attacking Whateverkineticist would also work, since you can use spring attack and PHB2 feats like Rapid Blitz with a standard Whip.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-19, 07:45 PM
Sadly, whips do not threaten within their reach. They can, however, be used to trip.However, Dagger Whips, which are like a whip in every way except better, threaten adjacent squares.

Vandin
2008-09-19, 07:45 PM
Sadly, whips do not threaten within their reach. They can, however, be used to trip.

I found a source for my theory: http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Equipment.pdf

Which says:
Bard, Trip, Disarm +2, Finesse
Shared Proficiency (Whip)
Reach 15’ & Threaten Adjacent
Attacking generates an Attack
of Opportunity

About the Whip Dagger, found in Dragon Magazine 353, in theory. Unfortunately, getting a hold out of that is extremely unlikely. Wonder if DM counts as "published by WoTC", seeing as they had to license it :smallbiggrin:

edit: Thunder stolen!

Keld Denar
2008-09-19, 09:06 PM
Actually, Bard3/Crusader17 or Bard4/Crusader16 are fully Bard with respect to music. There is a feat in Tome of Battle called Song of the White Raven, which allows Bard and Crusader/Warblade levels to stack to determine the amount and power of bard songs the character has available. So a Bard20 would be nearly identical to a Bard4/Crusader16, except for that instead of spells, the Crusader blend has maneuvers, stances, much better BAB, and a few other minor features. Music wise, they are identical.