3.5 Qualifying for Hierophant question

[ken-do-nim]

A friend of mine just asked:

The hierophant prestige class lists 15 ranks of knowledge(religion) as
a prereq. But the class is clearly intended for druids as well as
clerics. The original hierophants were druids in edition 1, after
all! So I assume you could have 15 ranks of knowledge (nature)
instead, since a pure druid couldn't have 15 ranks in knowledge
(religion) until Level 27.

This *has* to have come up before.

[Epinephrine]

Makes sense, we just added Knowledge (Religion) to the druid skill list, as it made no sense that a druid (relgious in nature) would have no knowledge about religion (especially as many druids are opposed to the undead, and view them as unnatural things that must be destroyed. You'd think they'd be able to recognise them.). Making it Knowledge (Nature) also makes sense though.

[Tsotha-lanti]

I coulda sworn that in 3.0 you could qualify for Hierophant with Knowledge (nature), by the books. Our first campaign's druid multiclassed into Hierophant eventually. (To take heal as a SLA, I think, 'cos he hated being expected to waste spell slots on healing spells.)

[Telonius]

In general I think it doesn't come up all that often in CharOp, since Hierophant does not advance spell progression (though it does stack to determine caster level).

By RAW, a non-Epic full Druid wouldn't qualify; but a Druid with at least one level in Cleric, Bard, Monk, or Paladin (from Core) could potentially qualify for it pre-Epic (though the skill point requirement would be pretty fierce). Personally I would put Know (Religion) on the Druid's class skill list.

[Gorbash]

Why would you want to multiclass into Hierophant, anyway?

[Tsotha-lanti]

Why would you want to multiclass into Hierophant, anyway?

Because then you can make ranged touch harm attacks. They also don't give up spell slots for these abilities, unlike archmages (except for SLA).

You don't want it until level 18 or later, though, what with no caster progression. (Spell Power seems a ridiculously, hilarious pathetic ability for a class with no casting progression. Why not just take a level in your real class instead of picking that up?!)

Incidentally, from the Hierophant class in the SRD...

"Power of Nature (Su): Available only to hierophants with druid levels"

Yeah, I think they royally screwed up writing this class for 3.5.

[Chronos]

They also don't give up spell slots for these abilities, unlike archmages (except for SLA).They give up multiple spell slots for their abilities. You'd always gain more than one spell slot from leveling up (and usually one of your best ones), and you give that up for Heirophant. About the only time it's worthwhile is in Gestalt, where you can continue your main class on the other side, or after you're done with Ur-Priest, and can't progress any more.


(Spell Power seems a ridiculously, hilarious pathetic ability for a class with no casting progression. Why not just take a level in your real class instead of picking that up?!)The class increases caster level (though not spells known, etc.) at every level anyway; Spell Power is an additional increase on top of that. You'll occasionally see a Word-based build (Holy Word, etc.) that takes Heirophant levels for that reason: A cleric 15/heirophant 5 who chose Spell Power every level would have a caster level of 25, compared to 20 for the straight cleric. Personally, I'd rather not put so many eggs into one basket, but it's not completely useless.

[Frosty]

Because then you can make ranged touch harm attacks. They also don't give up spell slots for these abilities, unlike archmages (except for SLA).

Just Metamagic the Harm spell for Reach man. Hierophant isn't worth it.

[JeminiZero]

Just Metamagic the Harm spell for Reach man. Hierophant isn't worth it.

Its not just Harm though. A lot of cleric/druid spells have the range of touch-Shield of Faith/Barkskin/Magic Vestment, Freedom of Movement, Spell Resistance, Greater Magic Weapon etc.

Of course free Reach on its own isn't entirely worthwhile, since a lot of those spells are cast at the start/before combat when your party should be standing around you anyway.

It looks much better once you consider that reach lets you apply Chain spell. Ambushed by an army of Damn Crabs? Reach Chain-Freedom of Movement! Going up against enemy casters? Reach-Chain Spell Resistance! If the Cleric is using DMM persist Cheese, he can make it last the whole day too.

In essence, free Reach reduces the metamagic cost by 2 levels, and lets him Reach-Chain stuff that he normally wouldn't be able to, and to do it at earlier levels. Its certainly a worthwhile consideration for a party buffing cleric.

[Idea Man]

Wizards did address this issue in the FAQ, stating that, yes, druids can use knowledge (nature) in substitution of knowledge (religion).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wizards did address this issue in the FAQ, stating that, yes, druids can use knowledge (nature) in substitution of knowledge (religion).FAQ is not RAW!

[Frosty]

FAQ is not RAW!

Then Rule 0 it. I rule 0 a lot of stuff and it works. If it makes sense, do it.

[Scaboroth]

FAQ is not RAW!

Considering that there is a whole host of absolutely ridiculous gunk that is RAW, I think that's sort of a weak argument. I would propose that, based on the flavor text:


"Power of Nature (Su): Available only to hierophants with druid levels"


it is indeed RAI.

[Dode]

This *has* to have come up before.
Maybe not, a Hierophant sucks that bad.

[Leon]

Why would you want to multiclass into Hierophant, anyway?

For a number of reasons that someone would have to chose a PrC to suit what they want, none withstanding that some consider it a poor choice

[Talic]

There's a Forgotten realms Feat that allows you to select 2 knowledge skills, which become class skills, I believe. Easy nuff, and works for all of the above arguments, without rule 0, or raw vs rai, or any of the other mess.

[Chronos]

For a number of reasons that someone would have to chose a PrC to suit what they want, none withstanding that some consider it a poor choiceExcept that Heirophant doesn't really suit anything.



There's a Forgotten realms Feat that allows you to select 2 knowledge skills, which become class skills, I believe.I don't know about that, but there's an Eberron feat (Educated) which makes all knowledge skills class skills. That's not really a very good answer, though, since Heirophant is in the core rules, and not everyone who uses the core rules uses any given supplement.

[Tsotha-lanti]

The bit in Power of Nature isn't fluff, it's rules. It's a rule specifically forbidding non-druid hierophants from taking the ability, which suggests that yet, the strong intention is for the class to be available for druids, too.


Except that Heirophant doesn't really suit anything.

It really is fairly bitching starting at, say, level 21. Our epic-level druid was reaching harm for well over 200 damage a round in every fight, and took some healing magic as SLAs. (Actually, he might have used the - if I recall correctly - insanely unbalanced feat from the 3.0 FR campaign guide that gave you any spell as an SLA.)

[Talic]

I don't know about that, but there's an Eberron feat (Educated) which makes all knowledge skills class skills. That's not really a very good answer, though, since Heirophant is in the core rules, and not everyone who uses the core rules uses any given supplement.

Disagree. It is a perfectly valid answer for that campaign setting.

Power of nature forbids non-druids from taking it. Thus, we can infer that the class can be used to enhance druids.

However, even in Core, lower level qualification is possible, provided the character has at least 1 level of any of the following, in addition to druid levels:
Bard, Cleric, Monk, or Wizard.

Also possible, at reasonable levels, in core. To head off the "it's gotta be available from 1 class only" argument, see how many levels of wizard you'd need to get the +6 BAB for Arcane archer.... Or if you can get Arcane Trickster at any level.

Several of the classes in the SRD have been designed to be most easily entered by multiclassing to meet requirements.