Best Gate defense

[Jamin]

The title says it all who's gate was the best defended against the forces of evil of the 3 we have seen so far I would say Dorukan because even after he was dead his gate was still protected by something the bad guys could not break

[Warren Dew]

Kragor's gate, because it will hold out longest.

[Renegade Paladin]

Only because it's the one they'll go to last. :smalltongue:

I'd say Azure City. It had the resources of an entire nation defending it, even if the nation at large didn't realize it.

[RMS Oceanic]

(Start of Darkness)I'd have to say Lirian's Gate with its magic-destroying virus. Seriously, even if your force manages to capture the gate, you have no magic to make use of it. If it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle's immunity to disease property, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in today.

[Occasional Sage]

Bah, paladins are immune to disease. All you need is one misguided paladin thinking that they're acting in the best interest of the world, and BLAMO!

The best defense is 1) NOT WRITING DOWN THE LOCATIONS, and 2) NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FREAKING THINGS.

Sadly, I seem to be smarter than the power of plot allows an Epic wizard (therefore INT 19+) to be.

[RMS Oceanic]

One misguided paladin against an army of single-minded druidic forces? I don't think it's happening. Besides, Lirian's gate was much bigger, and I don't think a few sword strikes would do much to it.

[Warren Dew]

(Start of Darkness)I'd have to say Lirian's Gate with its magic-destroying virus. Seriously, even if your force manages to capture the gate, you have no magic to make use of it. If it wasn't for the Crimson Mantle's immunity to disease property, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in today.

My impression was that it wasn't the Crimson Mantle so much as the "powered by gods" effect of all clerical magic. We also find out that undead are immune. I don't think a defense that's vulnerable to all clerics and all undead is that much of a defense.

Plus, it kind of seemed like anyone with a torch could destroy Lirian's gate.

[RMS Oceanic]

My impression was that it wasn't the Crimson Mantle so much as the "powered by gods" effect of all clerical magic. We also find out that undead are immune. I don't think a defense that's vulnerable to all clerics and all undead is that much of a defense.

Plus, it kind of seemed like anyone with a torch could destroy Lirian's gate.


Right now all your spellcasters, arcane or devine, are finding out they can't cast spells.

This pretty much makes me believe that only the Crimson Mantle saved Redcloak. I cede the point about the undead, however.

Ultimately, I think none of the defenses will be sufficient on their own, which is why I rue that stupid, stupid oath of noninterference, and the problems that caused in Azure City. Seriously, if you had each kind of defense at each gate, they'd be so much harder to conquer.

[MReav]

Specialization breeds weakness. It's a slow death.




This pretty much makes me believe that only the Crimson Mantle saved Redcloak. I cede the point about the undead, however.

Ultimately, I think none of the defenses will be sufficient on their own, which is why I rue that stupid, stupid oath of noninterference, and the problems that caused in Azure City. Seriously, if you had each kind of defense at each gate, they'd be so much harder to conquer.

In all fairness, if they didn't, then the Gate defences never would have been built because they were at each other's throats.

They should have had an expiry built in, so the next generation could work things out.

[Kish]

My impression was that it wasn't the Crimson Mantle so much as the "powered by gods" effect of all clerical magic.

Except that Lirian spelled out that the virus would work on divine magic as well as arcane magic, followed by Redcloak spelling out that he was now the only spellcaster in his whole army, because the Crimson Mantle protected him.

[Warren Dew]

They should just have burned the halfling's diary. Then the oath of noninterference would have been a strength rather than a weakness, as it would prevent the bad guys from finding the next gate after accidentally blowing one up.

[RMS Oceanic]

1. Going to Serini to destroy her Diary would violate the oath, methinks.
2. I wouldn't be surprised if Soon didn't know about it.

[Warren Dew]

More accurately, the group should have agreed to destroy Serini's diary before they split up, and she should have done it.

[David Argall]

As a point of fact, the ability to keep the gates a secret should have been a non-starter. The information should have been too widely spread to destroy and the very effort to destroy it should have spread it further. They could make the knowledge confused, and in some degree false, but the ability to keep their efforts a secret just could not happen. There were just too many people who knew something.

[Pronounceable]

I'm a firm believer in the power of misdirection. And illusions are the strongest kind of magic with some imagination. Therefore, I think Girard's gate will be best defended.

[Kaytara]

I really have to wonder why the Order of the Scribble couldn't decide to just supply each Gate with each damn kind of protection. Even if Soon didn't agree with the idea of the invulnerability of magic, and if Girard didn't think much of a paladin's honour, they should all have been able to agree that more protection can't hurt, right?
The explanation the comic seems to provide is that they couldn't stand another minute of each other's presence and thus wouldn't have been able to cooperate, but really, when the existence is at stake, they should have been able to get over it.

[Radar]

I'm a firm believer in the power of misdirection. And illusions are the strongest kind of magic with some imagination. Therefore, I think Girard's gate will be best defended.
Probably would be, if nobody knew about the said gate. Especially if combined with some anti-divinations protection.
If someone knows about illusions it's all over - one just has to dispell all magic step by step. Time consuming, but not very difficult.

I would say, that Soon's gate had the best defences for one important reason - it was improving while time passed. Every palladin, who died defending the gate was still protectiong it in afterlife. Keep in mind, that Soon himself was able to defeat Xykon and Redcloak easily on his own. If it hadn't been for Miko, Team Evil would have been no more. I just don't understand, why O'Chul tried to destroy the gate - it seems, like he didn't know about additional defences.

[Jamin]

I just don't understand, why O'Chul tried to destroy the gate - it seems, like he didn't know about additional defences.
I think only the royal family knew

[Shhalahr Windrider]

One misguided paladin against an army of single-minded druidic forces?
Paladins tend to have Charisma. Any misguided paladin with enough power to mess with a Gate should find it easy to raise a not-quite-as-misguided army for taking on the druidic forces.

[Lamech]

I'm going to have to say Azure City had the best defended gate. Durkon's relied on Durkon being alive, any threat that came along in 30 years would meet nothing. That is pretty much a totally non-existance defense.
SOD details inside
Lirian counted too heavily on the virus, but without the virus, even a single flame strike could destroy the gate, that is also a failure of defense.
Azure City defense's didn't hold up either, Soon would have destroyed Xykon, and killed Redcloak, but he couldn't break the hidey-hole for the soul. The hobgoblins could have grabbed Redcloak's body in a sacrificial rush. But still the defenses took a army, a high-highest level cleric, and an epic level caster, much better than time, or a fifth level spell.

[Sir_Norbert]

Has anyone else noticed this?

It's a bit of a stretch, but you could say that all three gates so far were destroyed by their intended protection. Thus showing that none of the protectors had the best idea, although all had the best intentions....

[vegetalss4]

Has anyone else noticed this?

It's a bit of a stretch, but you could say that all three gates so far were destroyed by their intended protection. Thus showing that none of the protectors had the best idea, although all had the best intentions....

hmm.. now thats an interesting point.
however i can't see that staying that way. because i have a hard time seeing something being destroyed by illusion

[tribble]

I'm going to have to say Azure City had the best defended gate. Durkon's relied on Durkon being alive, any threat that came along in 30 years would meet nothing. That is pretty much a totally non-existance defense.
SOD details inside
Lirian counted too heavily on the virus, but without the virus, even a single flame strike could destroy the gate, that is also a failure of defense.
Azure City defense's didn't hold up either, Soon would have destroyed Xykon, and killed Redcloak, but he couldn't break the hidey-hole for the soul. The hobgoblins could have grabbed Redcloak's body in a sacrificial rush. But still the defenses took a army, a high-highest level cleric, and an epic level caster, much better than time, or a fifth level spell.

DO-RU-KAN, not DURKON.:smallannoyed:

[Warren Dew]

however i can't see that staying that way. because i have a hard time seeing something being destroyed by illusion

The gate could be accidentally destroyed, perhaps even by friendly forces, because it looked like something else.

[Zolem]

The gate could be accidentally destroyed, perhaps even by friendly forces, because it looked like something else.

"Look Im sorry, I thought it was a Balor."

Also

The last gate will be ironicly destroyed by one of the guard beasts if this trend of overspecialization leads to the gates ironic destruction continues.

[Warren Dew]

Also

The last gate will be ironicly destroyed by one of the guard beasts if this trend of overspecialization leads to the gates ironic destruction continues.

Indeed, this could already have happened, for all we know!

[Flickerdart]

Or there is an illusion of the gate that stays there even after the gate is opened/destroyed. That would be pretty confusing to those attempting to control it.

[Pronounceable]

Can't read those spoilers. Was Lirian's gate in SoD? Those spoilers up there discussing Lirian's defenses? I may never know (least not yet)...

O-Chul: He certainly didn't know about ghosts or he wouldn't try to destroy the gate. Did Hinjo know it? I think he did, but I'm fuzzy.

Girard's defenses: Just because he's an illusionist doesn't mean he didn't have access to real damage. I'm sure we'll be awed by cunning use of illusions coupled with devious deathtraps when Xykon, Redcloak and flunkies get there.

[MReav]

Hinjo knew it, but it was a secret only kept within the ruling family of Azure City.

Personally, I think Girard is going to combine Illusions with Symbols, and various Nightmare spells.

Also, he probably has a bunch of minions to help him.

[Warren Dew]

Can't read those spoilers. Was Lirian's gate in SoD?

Uh, if you don't read spoilers, how are you expecting to get a question answered when the answer comes from a source that has to be spoilered?

The answer is yes, by the way.


Did Hinjo know it? I think he did, but I'm fuzzy.

Hinjo was the one who told us about the ghosts.

[Zolem]

Indeed, this could already have happened, for all we know!


:roy: What, the last gate got wrecked? I thought there was one left?
:vaarsuvius: Yeah, about that, my scrying has detected that a purple worm ate the gate about five years ago.

[Lowkey]

Soon's gate potentially had the best defenses - it was well hidden, protected by an entire army, guarded by a legion of paladins, and all its layers of protection would increase year by year. More people would forget about the gate and believe the other, more reasonable explanations used to cover for it. The army of AC would grow and develop with the times, more and more paladins would join the Guard, and as more paladin's died more would join Soon in the afterlife to defend it.

That said, Dorukan's gate appears to have had the best protection - we have no idea how it is accessed. Xykon guessed that a good hearted person could unlock it, but that's all it was - a guess. You couldn't investigate it with magic, it had a dungeon full of old and powerful creatures that the defender could control with an amulet, and there was a connection with at least one of the other gate defenders so that reinforcements could come in if needed.

[nimby]

The explanation the comic seems to provide is that they couldn't stand another minute of each other's presence and thus wouldn't have been able to cooperate, but really, when the existence is at stake, they should have been able to get over it.


Well no, they all believed they had the perfect defence plan for their gate. High level adventurers get arrogant. I also doubt they'd wanna be reminded of the guys they adventured with and now hate whenever they look at the other type of defence.


The best defended -was- Dorukan's, because Xykon sat on it for 6 months without seeing any progress towards unlocking it. The only flaw was that his self-destruct wasn't idiot-proof. Or maybe it was and nature just made a better idiot.

[Zaphrasz]

Yeah, from what we have seen at this point in the comic, it seems like Dorukan had the best defense. First of all, he covered the entire fortress in an epic spell that makes pinpointing the location or figuring out its defenses without being there impossible. Then you had to get through an epic level wizard, who has had decades to plan.To be honest, that really bugged me about Start of Darkness. Xykon just won so....easily. Spam a few Energy Drains, and take out an epic level wizard? A wizard with epic spellcasting? Who didn't think to guard against that sort of thing? Oh well, you just need to accept that, though he was a wizard, he was not, in fact, Batman. Manage that? You still need to work on dispelling the massive amount of magical protection, particularly in the form of the runes that Xykon couldn't handle after months of trying. The gate was ultimately only destroyed by the backup plan in case the worst case scenario happened, something it apparently didn't need.

As great as Lirian's defense was, she let the attackers live. Sure, in a hole in the ground, with no magical assistance, but she shouldn't have given them a chance. Perhaps she assumed that any attackers would use death as a shortcut out, through a Resurrection, but waiting for her enemies to die of old age isn't a great idea. Also, what if her attackers were immune to disease? Dorukan may have been an idiot to forget about level draining, but he had some backup plans. Clearly the monsters guarding Lirian's gate were far too incompetent to be protecting a rift in the fabric of the universe.

[kopout]

liras gate was the best specking as a bio mager i am kind of biased towers it but relying on JUST the virus was stupid
i would have gotten a dragon and maybe a rust monster or too

[Oracle_Hunter]

To be honest, that really bugged me about Start of Darkness. Xykon just won so....easily. Spam a few Energy Drains, and take out an epic level wizard? A wizard with epic spellcasting? Who didn't think to guard against that sort of thing? Oh well, you just need to accept that, though he was a wizard, he was not, in fact, Batman.

Energy Drain is ludicrously powerful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/energyDrain.htm) and doubly dangerous for a wizard (loses spells!). Yes, spamming 2d4 levels of damage will take out even the most Epic of wizards. Dorukan's error was leaving his Epically protected fortress, and underestimating Sorcerers... a theme of SoD

EDIT: I'd second Dorukan's BTW. An Epic Lich was unable to figure out how to bypass the warding on the Gate, and unlike Soon's, it wasn't somewhere that might be invaded for other reasons. Dorukan's Dungeon was out of the way and had no reason for anyone to seek its destruction... unlike a certain city that spent the past few decades slaughtering and burning for the Greater Good :smallamused:

[Lord_Butters_I]

Dorukan's. Lirian didn't take creative enemies into account a lock made of lies shatters to a single truth, and rampaging monsters don't distinguish friend from foe. Dorukan was protected from surveillance, had a small army of outdated monsters (why he didn't unleash them on Xykon I don't know) he himself was a juggernaut, and to top it all off, worst case scenario the gate is unusable.

Azure City gets some serious props though. The capitol of a military-controlled world superpower AND a ghostly incarnation of their incredibly powerful leader? Hell yeah. Xykon had to lierally raise an army to even have a chance. No B-plot Nale or Kubota is going to get his hands on that kind of power. Only reason Xykon isn't bone dust right now is Miko.

[King of Nowhere]

Dorukan would have died of old age soon, and to dispel his wards on the gate it would have been enough to kidnap someone goodhearted and push him in the gate. It would have worked much better if Dorukan had become a lich to defend a gate, And while the rules claims that becoming lich is evil, I don't see anithing bad in his case. And for his fight with Xykon His old age gave him a -6 to cos, which is awfully bad when your hit dice is a d4. A single fireball could have killed him, or some arrows from the goblins, or 2-3 magic missiles, or Redcloak's disintegrate. How much protection he needed? He didn't have time or spells enough to cover every damage source, so he took his chance that Xykon couldn't cast energy drain. His main fault is that he should have escaped when it was clear Xykon had the upper hand (after the second energy drain, he could still have teleported away).

So I'm going for Soon's gate.
I would have chosen Dorukan if Dorukan became a lich and his wards weren't dispelled by good people's touch.
By the way, when Xykon faced Soon directly, he was already wounded and low on spells. I'm not sure of the outcome if Xykon and Soon fought one on one, with all the spells ready.

[Moriarty]

I would have chosen Dorukan if Dorukan became a lich and his wards weren't dispelled by good people's touch.

we don't know if the wards would have been dispelled by elans touch. xykon ASUMMED they worked exactly like the protection of the old monsters-thingy, but we can't be sure, because the protection was still intact until the explosion

additionly, i don't think every dead paladin continues to defend soons gate,

those ghosts were the ghost MARTYRS of the saphire guard. also hinjo ordered the paladins to fight in the throne room, which leads me to assume only paladins wo died in the throne room by defending the gate could become martyrs

[MReav]

I think Dorukun made the mistake of not getting negative energy protection when facing a friggin' Lich.

And not spamming scrolled Time Stops in order to get the time he needed to cast whatever wards he needed.

[ericgrau]

Only because it's the one they'll go to last. :smalltongue:

I'd say Azure City. It had the resources of an entire nation defending it, even if the nation at large didn't realize it.

The first gate had an entire woodland society defending it, and the 2nd had an entire epic wizard's dungeon (complete with the epic wizard) defending it. Both similarly well defended, IMO.

IMO Durokon lost b/c he's yet another cocky wizard bastard. Seriously, not only should he have prepared better, he should have stayed inside the dungeon. Instead he thought victory would be easy and came right out without so much as a death ward. Exactly what Xykon wanted, not because he fell for Xykon's trick but b/c he thought he could handle it.

I once posted some CR-appropriate wizard challenges in a thread. I commented that the first guy's entry was incomplete and should be more detailed. He took offense at the supposed implication that he might have possibly lost (there was no such implication), and touted about how much he trounced over... the CR-appropriate challenges which any average player of any class is expected to overcome. He piecemeal selected a higher difficulty on 2 of the 4 challenges, where it was easier to do so. I also got claims about how it was unfairly biased against wizards (monsters were randomly selected), some more arrogance from others, etc. This was at other boards, btw, not as nice as these boards.

[Linkavitch]

They were all defended best in the manner that they were defended. Soon did the best he could, and formed a nation. Dorukan(if that's how it's spelled) did the best he could with his magic. Lirian, however, didn't think much. I mean, if your gate could be destroyed by a forest fire, it's pretty likely that it's going to happen.

[Impikmin]

Soon's defenses were REALLY good. The power of plot just went "ooh, summon army for the bad guys!" Lirians defenses were also good, just that an early fire spell in the battle puts the kabosh on the whole thing. Dorukan's defenses were also PWNzor but he stupidly came out to fight a battle he couldn't win, not on Xykon's terms. Really Dorukan had so much stuff like the 2nd edition monster armor and stuff that if he just stayed in his castle not even the army they used to defeat Soon's defenses could have conquered it. And no one's considored Kraagor's gate, but that's because we think it's a combination of traps from the rogue and maybe barbarian monster stoof? I'm going to go with Kraagor's, because we know NOTHING about it, and the element of surprise may be more deadly than illusions.