OOTS #594 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Linkavitch]

Nice comic Giant! The last panel was the best!

[Lira]

Aw damn. I still hope Kubota will die somehow. Soon.

Good comic though, I loved the punchline.

[North]

Stupid lawful good court systems.

[Szilard]

Heh, loved the end.

[Rogue 7]

Ninja Elan!

Glad to see that Kubota's not going to get off scot-free. He hasn't had a chance to destroy evidence, plenty of witnesses, etc. etc. He's pretty much done.

[Guchalez]

nice comic, i was specting elan to attack but he's good so he didn't
cool that he hit kubota anyway

[CTrombley]

This is precisely what I thought would happen.

That's never a good sign!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Go Elan! Kick his arrogant butt!

[Estelindis]

Love the way Kubota waves his arms around in triumph at Elan's impotence to go against his good ideals. Also love the way Elan manages to overcome that impotence ever so slightly. Kubota deserved a punch in the face at the very least. Thanks for the comic, Giant! :smallsmile:

[SPoD]

Kubota's "choice" scenario makes a whole lot more sense now: It was made up on the fly. Qarr was supposed to be there to enact whatever his REAL plan was, and didn't show up for some reason. Kubota then bluffed his way through the scene, killing Therkla in the process.

Not bad, for an improvisation.

[Holammer]

Man, this is the evil villain that keeps on giving! :smallmad:

[masonwheeler]

I'm a bit surprised that Elan allowed himself to be beaten by all that "lawful custody" nonsense. He's Chaotic, right?

[HiroProtagonist]

Wow, Kubota really is a manipulative bastard, huh?

[Kaytara]

DAMN IT! Story-wise, I'm pleased that Kubota wasn't finished off just like that. But damn it! Seeing Elan pull a Belkar - "I'm Chaotic." - would've been so damn satisfying!

And another update so soon. Woot. ^^

[Warren Dew]

So is Kubota facing forward while rowing a mistake, or is it a commentary on how he's unfamiliar with menial tasks?

[SPoD]

I'm a bit surprised that Elan allowed himself to be beaten by all that "lawful custody" nonsense. He's Chaotic, right?

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.

[Inhuman Bot]

Wow.... Just wow...:smallsigh:

[Fawkes]

I love Elan.

[Wreckingrocc]

Panel 3 was freaking epic.

[Mojique]

I'm sure Elan will screw it up. So where is a hungry shark when you need one? :smallfurious:

[Enlong]

Aw damn. I still hope Kubota will die somehow. Soon.

Good comic though, I loved the punchline.Badum-pisssh!

[LuisDantas]

Poor Elan. He just keeps growing frustrated by Kubota's byzantine schemes.

[jmucchiello]

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.Doesn't mean he can't let the boat sink. (Well, it does. But still....)

[Atomsized]

Hah, that was great, especially the last few panels. :smallsmile:

[skywalker]

Panel 3 was freaking epic.

I love bad-ass Elan!

[Spiryt]

Crap...

Bastard or not, Kubota's pretty awesome.

Or maybe that's wrong word? Anyway, it seems that you don't need class levels to manage with things.

[Ascension]

I'm not sure about the magnificent, but Kubota's a bastard all right.

[teratorn]

Kubota seems finished but Qarr is another story... Where is he?

[Dacia Brabant]

Poor Elan. He just keeps growing frustrated by Kubota's byzantine schemes.

Nah this is pretty straight forward--he's unarmed and alone, he clearly sees Qarr's ace was trumped so his main target, Hinjo, is still alive, so it makes perfect sense to surrender and live to scheme another day.

That's what'll be byzantine, his attempt to weasel out of this mess when it goes to the magistrate.


And wow, fast updates are fast. We're rapidly heading to the conclusion of the story arc here.

[Oracle_Hunter]

:xykon: Bwahahahahaha!

Man, Lord Kubota sure brings the Law in Lawful Evil :smallbiggrin:

Tiny nitpick: Lord Kubota is surely going to bring Assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault) and Battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)) charges, unless that shiner is just for comedic effect :smalltongue:

[tomgunn]

Aw man, I really wanted to see Kubota get some worse punishment than that in this comic. Oh well, a punch is better than nothing, and im sure they'll do something about him soon.

[Mr Chief]

I laughed at the last panel

[Dervag]

Aw man, I really wanted to see Kubota get some worse punishment than that in this comic. Oh well, a punch is better than nothing, and im sure they'll do something about him soon.Given Elan's testimony, it's entirely possible that Kubota will hang for this.

Also, I find it highly unlikely Elan will be punished for striking Kubota.

[Huckminster]

Ever heard the expression, "Don't think, it's bad for the team"?

Well, Elan didn't have time to think, and it was good for the team.

[Lerky]

Elan should just kill him. I mean he can't even be lawful!

[Ron Miel]

So is Kubota facing forward while rowing a mistake, or is it a commentary on how he's unfamiliar with menial tasks?

And also isn't the oar the wrong way round in the rowlock?

I really want to see Elan sink the boat.

[Prince_Rohan]

"And that is why evil will always triumph, because Good is dumb."

[Oracle_Hunter]

Elan should just kill him. I mean he can't even be lawful!

Ah, but he is Good, and killing someone who has just surrendered to you is, to paraphrase Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Incredibles_characters#Syndrome), "a little dark for Elan." :smallamused:

[TerrickTerran]

Kabuto wimping out....Elan should have just let him drowned.

[Izad]

Given Elan's testimony, it's entirely possible that Kubota will hang for this.

Also, I find it highly unlikely Elan will be punished for striking Kubota.

Not just Elan's testimony, Daigo and Kazumi were there the whole time. That being said, for all we know the greatest punishment for a noble is a smack in the face with a wet noodle. Kubota wouldn't surrender and take his chances on a trial if he thought it certain he was going to swing.

(Edit: I found it sort of odd that Kubota could brag about escaping back to his ship and erasing all the evidence when Daigo and Kazumi were right there and witnessed the whole thing. Either Kubota forgot, Kubota had a plan, or it's a continuity error. Take your pick.)

I find it hightly LIKELY Elan will be punished for striking Kubota. Considering the possibility that there's two justices, one for the nobility and another for everyone else, Elan could come off worse off. OTOH, I know almost nothing about the Azurite legal code, so maybe Kubota will swing, or go to prison or something, and Elan will get off with a smack on the wrist.

'Couple other things:

1) Whenever Elan cracks open the can of whoop ass, it's always cool. One of my favorite panels in the whole saga is elan swinging down on the rope to get Haley.

2) My nitpickery organ would like to point out that Kubota was rowing...oddly, and that boat should have sank within seconds. The rest of me would like to remind y'all that it's a comic strip, and not look TOO hard at it. :)

[The Tygre]

Money says Kubota has some kind of stone-to-flesh trick ready. I'm guessing a scroll.

[David Argall]

Aw man, I really wanted to see Kubota get some worse punishment than that in this comic. Oh well, a punch is better than nothing, and im sure they'll do something about him soon.

Wrong, the punch is much worse than nothing. Kubota does not need to be harmed at that point to be turned over to authorities, and so harming him is sinful as excessive.
It is also possibly too little. If there is any chance of Kubota getting off, this action has increased it. So killing him on the spot might be justified if, like Elan, you don't think much of the legal system and know him to be deserving of death.

Elan's action may be understandable, but it is clearly wrong.

Oh yes, Kubota is raising his hand in surrender, not in any sort of celebration.

Where is Qarr?, well one possibility in many stories, with MacBeth being an example, the devil figure gives the sucker everything he asks for, but not what he needs, thus betraying in dearest consequence. It's possible Qarr has set up Kubota and is now going to claim his soul after he is executed, and maybe end up with a promotion.

[Warren Dew]

Kubota seems finished but Qarr is another story... Where is he?

I think it's pretty likely Qarrhad an encounter with Vaarsuvius


And also isn't the oar the wrong way round in the rowlock?

Yeah, that's strange looking. Escher brand oarlock, maybe?


I really want to see Elan sink the boat.

That might be difficult since it's likely made of wood. It's already swamped.

[Starknight]

Great comic. 'Pressing Assault Charges' Yeah Kubota just just such a a$$h**e that he would. Magnificent bastard.

Starknight

[shadowxknight]

Hmm, Elan seems to be more Lawful than I thought.

And Kubota will probably die unless he has an ace up his sleeve.
After all he'll probably be court-martialed due to the extreme times.
The penalty for treason, of course, is death.

[AtomicKitKat]

Love the way Kubota waves his arms around in triumph at Elan's impotence to go against his good ideals. Also love the way Elan manages to overcome that impotence ever so slightly. Kubota deserved a punch in the face at the very least. Thanks for the comic, Giant! :smallsmile:

Actually, that's the international sign of surrender. Raising your arms with hands open so that:

A) You expose your chest, thereby presenting vulnerability(you will also notice it in certain social animals when they "mock fight"), while in turn expecting mercy.
B) You show that your hands are free of any weapons.

[hajo]

I wonder what Qarr has been doing since he left the island, and what he will say when he discovers what happened to his poker-buddy :smallamused:

[phoerix]

It looks like Elan is moving a bit more towards Lawful, even considering good and all; somethings the "good" / "right" thing to do is to off the bad guy quietly.

[Lizard Lord]

I think David's theory is more likly. Qarr had plenty of time to zip to the boat while V. and the others where fighting the big demon.

[EndlessWrath]

Aw damn. I still hope Kubota will die somehow. Soon.

Good comic though, I loved the punchline.

*cymbal crash*
------
<-- twas peeved at his "getting away with it plan"... He'll swindle his way out of the court.

Give in to your anger Elan! Do not hesitate, and your transformation to the dark side will be complete.

[Lizard Lord]

It looks like Elan is moving a bit more towards Lawful, even considering good and all; somethings the "good" / "right" thing to do is to off the bad guy quietly.

The good thing to do isn't always the right thing to do.

Well, I guess that depends on one's definition of right but I think you get my point.

Besides, punching Kubota in the face was NOT lawful.

[selgnij]

Rather rushed, so I'll keep this brief. If V was off fighting Quarr, Elan is going to have some choice words for him/her when he finds out.

[Enlong]

*cymbal crash*
------

Tooooo slow buddy, check page 1 :smallbiggrin:

[Heroic]

Great comic Giant! I hate Kubota even more now! :smalltongue:

[hajo]

Kubota mentioned that he used up his lotus extract.
For what is this stuff used ?

[Mauve Shirt]

God damn it, Kubota!

[Enlong]

Kubota mentioned that he used up his lotus extract.
For what is this stuff used ?

Deadly, deadly, deadly poison.

[SPoD]

Kubota mentioned that he used up his lotus extract.
For what is this stuff used ?

It's the most powerful and most expensive poison in the D&D rules. The one he used on Therkla, in all likelihood.

[Kerym Ammath]

"I won't kill you, but that does not mean I have to save you." Elan :smallsmile:

I HOPE!

[Habeed]

What would you do?

If you were playing Elan as a gamer?

If this were real life. Scenario : you were eating at a restraunt when a moderately attractive girl you know tells you she wants to be "more than friends". As you already have a girlfriend, you reject her.

Soon after you do so, a mad gunman bursts in to the restraunt and fires off a few rounds, one of which strikes the girl in the forehead, killing her instantly. This being Texas, you duck behind a table, whip out your concealed pistol, and return fire. You manage to wing the bad guy, and he makes a run for a car in the parking lot. You give chase, and just as you get a clear shot, he drops his firearm and puts his hands in the air. The cops are not there yet.

Do you accept the gunman's surrender? Or fire until the magazine's empty?

Remember, it's Texas, so assume for this scenario that you will be hailed a hero regardless.

[Enlong]

Nobody ever comments on me being a ninja... That's twice in as many minutes.


In other news, great comic. Yay for Elan! I personally am wondering what the heck Kubota can possibly do at this point. Depending on Qaar's location, he's probably going to swing for treason.

[TigerHunter]

Art mistake in panel one: look at the right-side oar.

[Querzis]

It looks like Elan is moving a bit more towards Lawful, even considering good and all; somethings the "good" / "right" thing to do is to off the bad guy quietly.

Someone who is REALLY good would never kill someone, even in self-defense. And thats regardless of if hes Lawfull, Neutral or Chaotic.

You can say killing the bad guy is more right if you want. With some villains its true. But it sure as hell aint more good.

I laughed at least ten seconds at that last panel. I'm starting to think Kubota is the sort of man who would still gloat and insult his enemy just before dying.

[Superglucose]

What is Kubota's game though? He wouldn't surrender without seeing something in it for himself. Is he expecting to get let off the hook, or is he expecting to be busted from jail?

Let's look at the charges facing him:

Consorting with Devils, three counts of attempted murder (Hinjo, and the new nobles). That's just the baseline minimum in my tired state.

What is his game?

[Lowkey]

What is Kubota's game though? He wouldn't surrender without seeing something in it for himself. Is he expecting to get let off the hook, or is he expecting to be busted from jail?

Let's look at the charges facing him:

Consorting with Devils, three counts of attempted murder (Hinjo, and the new nobles). That's just the baseline minimum in my tired state.

What is his game?Possible death in the future vs instant death now.

It's the old story about the singing horse. A thief is caught, and brought before the king for judgment. The king asks him why he shouldn't have him executed. The thief promises the king that if he spares his life for a single year, he will teach the king's horse to sing. The king agrees, and sends him to the stables. There the stable boy asks the thief what his plan is, he will never teach a horse to sing. The thief replies "A great many things can happen in a year. The king may die, I may escape, or who knows, the horse may sing."

With no other choice, bargin for time. Because in time more options may turn up.

[SPoD]

Let's look at the charges facing him:

Consorting with Devils,

There's no evidence for this one; no one has seen Qarr and Kubota together except Therkla, and she's dead. Therkla got hit with this charge because Hinjo witnessed her conversation with Qarr, and Lien had circumstantial evidence from the orc island.

[Werewindlefr]

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.

I beg to differ: killing someone who is a potential nuisance to the rest of the people, unnarmed or not, is perfectly acceptable for some chaotic good people. They are not bound by a code of honor (not all of them, or at least not strict) and thus for rhose people such a restriction can do more harm than good.

Kubota is that kind of person, and the old wacky dude with the cat would most likely have him executed or put in prison, because the good of his people was more important than the ethics of the act itself.

[Moonshadow]

*deep breath* KUBOTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!


This calls for some Shojo brand justice, methinks. Pity the High Priest got killed, he could have used some sort of nasty Mark of Justice on him, or something like that.

Then again, it is the whole Lawful Good court system :smallsigh:

[LuisDantas]

Kubota is that kind of person, and the old wacky dude with the cat would most likely have him executed or put in prison, because the good of his people was more important than the ethics of the act itself.

That would be quite unlawful. And possibly destructive too, since some degree of uproar from House Kubota would be bound to result.

[JBrian]

That would be quite unlawful. And possibly destructive too, since some degree of uproar from House Kubota would be bound to result.

Eh? Due to what? Their house leader disappears with no witnesses.

[HOLEkevin]

Evil meta-gaming bastard! Ooo… that really chaps my @$$. It kills me the number of times the OotS almost gets to look really cool only to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

In answer to an earlier question posed by Habeed, namely, what would you as a player do, the answer is that I would never have heard Kubota's surrender over my extra-loud rendition of "Kill, kill, kill the scheming villain…"

[Lowkey]

That would be quite unlawful.
Shojo was chaotic, wasn't he?


And possibly destructive too, since some degree of uproar from House Kubota would be bound to result.

Indeed. More likely Shojo would engineer a situation where one of Kabuto's rivals severely weakened Kabuto's power base, but didn't gain enough strength to become a sincere threat on their own.

[SPoD]

I beg to differ: killing someone who is a potential nuisance to the rest of the people, unnarmed or not, is perfectly acceptable for some chaotic good people.

Emphasis mine. Elan saved his brother from falling off a cliff into a pit of monsters who would eat him, knowing that he was evil and dangerous. He would never kill a surrendering man, no matter how much trouble that man may cause later.

[LuisDantas]

Eh? Due to what? Their house leader disappears with no witnesses.

That is assuming a lot. There are likely witnesses that Kubota left to Hinjo's ship, at the very least (he wanted to be seen doing that, after all). Besides, I am not at all certain that the Katos or even Elan would want to lie about what happened to Kubota.

Even if they did, it would still put Hinjo under very unwanted suspicion, which is probably enough to fuel some rather unpleasant confrontations with House Kubota. For all we know, Kubota may have been the moderate voice in the House, the one person of power who was against using direct force against Hinjo.

[Ted The Bug]

So is Kubota facing forward while rowing a mistake, or is it a commentary on how he's unfamiliar with menial tasks?
I was thinking the same thing. Have a cookie.

[Warren Dew]

I beg to differ: killing someone who is a potential nuisance to the rest of the people, unnarmed or not, is perfectly acceptable for some chaotic good people.

I don't think killing someone just for being a "potential nuisance" is ever good. It's not a matter of whether there are laws to follow; it's a matter of appropriate level of response, which is a matter of good more than of law.

[dish]

I'm also worried that Kubota wouldn't have surrendered unless he had another back-up plan in place. Bribed magistrates maybe? We do need to know where Qarr is.

[Lowkey]

I don't think killing someone just for being a "potential nuisance" is ever good. It's not a matter of whether there are laws to follow; it's a matter of appropriate level of response, which is a matter of good more than of law.
Really? Consider a situation similar to a number of those in the real world now - a dictator or corrupt leader has a tight grip on the reigns of power in their territory. They aren't an actual threat to your country and mainly just engage in foreign policy stunts that are rattling the saber against you and your allies. Not a threat, but destabilizing the region and generally a pain in the butt to you and yours. Yet within their territory, the leader is conducting genocide against an ethnic minority. Thousands have died.

Killing that person is, in my view, entirely justified in that scenario.

[Mr. Scaly]

You know, I've been wondering to myself about who the best villain so far is. Today I am decided...Kubota beats out Xykon, Redcloak, Miko and Nale!

And something about that smile in panels nine and ten tells me that he's got a plan C to get out of this situation.

[Mad Scientist]

I may be part of the bardic hero/swashbuckler code not to kill the bad guy if he surrenders. It may be "poor taste" to kill him in undramatic circumstances. Maybe he has to go down fighting or die in a tragic/funny accident?

[Crinos]

I'm not sure about the magnificent, but Kubota's a bastard all right.

I believe the technical term for what Kubota is would be referred to as a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake.

See, when Xykon slaughters a room full of Sapphire Cities finest with a superball then gloats about it, that's a case of being a magnificent bastard.

When Kubota poisons his own number two and gets out of his inevitable death by surrendering at the last second, that's a case of being a smug snake.

[Querzis]

Really? Consider a situation similar to a number of those in the real world now - a dictator or corrupt leader has a tight grip on the reigns of power in their territory. They aren't an actual threat to your country and mainly just engage in foreign policy stunts that are rattling the saber against you and your allies. Not a threat, but destabilizing the region and generally a pain in the butt to you and yours. Yet within their territory, the leader is conducting genocide against an ethnic minority. Thousands have died.

Killing that person is, in my view, entirely justified in that scenario.

We arent talking about right or wrong here. We are talking about good and evil. We arent saying killing Kubota woudnt have been justified, just that killing someone is NEVER more good then letting them live. As I already said, someone really good would never kill someone even in self-defense. Of course, very few people ever get to that level of good but it doesnt change the fact that killing someone is never a good action. Its often the right action, but not a good action.

[JBrian]

That is assuming a lot. There are likely witnesses that Kubota left to Hinjo's ship, at the very least (he wanted to be seen doing that, after all). Besides, I am not at all certain that the Katos or even Elan would want to lie about what happened to Kubota.

Even if they did, it would still put Hinjo under very unwanted suspicion, which is probably enough to fuel some rather unpleasant confrontations with House Kubota. For all we know, Kubota may have been the moderate voice in the House, the one person of power who was against using direct force against Hinjo.

Witnesses to the circumstances of his demise, not to his departure from his boat. Although #589's backstory would support your contention of witnesses to his departure, nighttime on the ocean is pretty dark. Hinjo has a pretty solid alibi as well for avoiding suspicion.

[Archangel Yuki]

Dude, Panel 5 is so fitting.

"You'll sink us both!"
"Gosh, really? Good thing im not wearing any armor!"
:DD
Take your +5 armor, stick it up your pipe, and smoke it! :DD

[Warren Dew]

They aren't an actual threat to your country and mainly just engage in foreign policy stunts that are rattling the saber against you and your allies.... Yet within their territory, the leader is conducting genocide against an ethnic minority. Thousands have died.

Killing that person is, in my view, entirely justified in that scenario.

Irrespective of whether it's justified, I don't think "conducting genocide" is covered under the narrow umbrella of "potential nuisance".

Back to the strip, is anyone else worried about why Kazumi wanted Elan to wait?

[ss49]

In real life, the Geneva accords only take place once a prisoner is taken. There is no rule that you have to take prisoners.
Reasons may run from the inability to hold a prisoner, to plain bloody-mindedness. If I should ever catch someone who just killed a person who professes their attraction to me, hazarded their life for me, and threw their hands up when my weapon was at his throat- that will just be too bad for him.

[chiasaur11]

Good going Elan.

It's what Spider-Man would do, and he tends to be right about these things.

(Except that whole deal with the Devil, but you can get out of those with a simple fiddle contest.)

[Estelindis]

Actually, that's the international sign of surrender. Raising your arms with hands open so that:

A) You expose your chest, thereby presenting vulnerability(you will also notice it in certain social animals when they "mock fight"), while in turn expecting mercy.
B) You show that your hands are free of any weapons.
I, like most people on the planet, am aware that this is the sign of surrender. :smalltongue: I just didn't see it that way when I first read the comic. :smallbiggrin:

[LuisDantas]

Back to the strip, is anyone else worried about why Kazumi wanted Elan to wait?

I wondered about that too. It may be just worry about his safety, but it may be something more serious as well. I hope it has nothing to do with her child, but it is a possibility; the stress may have triggered labor.

[ss49]

Back to the comic- am I the only one reminded of Jaws swamping the Orca, with Kubota in Quint's place?

[LuisDantas]

In real life, the Geneva accords only take place once a prisoner is taken. There is no rule that you have to take prisoners.
Reasons may run from the inability to hold a prisoner, to plain bloody-mindedness. If I should ever catch someone who just killed a person who professes their attraction to me, hazarded their life for me, and threw their hands up when my weapon was at his throat- that will just be too bad for him.

Geneva covers official acts of sovereign states, however. Yes, I know you're only drawing a parallel.

[VariaVespasa]

Nah, not really fast. He's just catching up from being "behind" the past couple of weeks. I'm guessing he's either been mildly sick, or conventioning his face off recently. Or both. :P

[smashley346]

!

I've never seen Elan so angry!

Unless I have and just forgot. Which is why I'm going back and rereading all the OOTS... oh the memories

[Jayngfet]

This would have my full attention if it weren't for toonami's death tonight.

[StupidFatHobbit]

So is Kubota facing forward while rowing a mistake, or is it a commentary on how he's unfamiliar with menial tasks?

Third option: Kubota is familar with rowing and the Giant knows that in some Asian and Indonesian countries, people traditionally row facing forward. Yes they do (though often they scull with a single oar rather than rowing with two).

About the rowlock being wrong: it does look weird, but rowlocks are made so they swivel. They're set on a spike that fits loosely into a hole, and the whole thing turns around with the motion of the oar. So it's possible as drawn. The oar is in close to the boat and when Kubota starts his next stroke, the oar will hit the left edge of the rowlock and swivel it towards him.

If that makes sense.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Why is Lord Kubota so smug? I mean at the moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html), as opposed to always :smallbiggrin:

My theory
Remember that one surviving magistrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html)? He is almost certainly in Lord Kubota's pay, and was probably "rescued" by Lord Kubota on his personal yacht. Now, he may or may not be Evil for being willing to conspire against Hinjo, but for whatever reason, Hinjo doesn't seem to use his Detect Evil quite as much as Miko :smallwink:

I mean, why hasn't he scanned Lord Kubota yet? Or does Lord Kubota have a Ring of Undetectable Alignment to boot?

EDIT:

This would have my full attention if it weren't for toonami's death tonight.


:eek:

[Werewindlefr]

I don't think killing someone just for being a "potential nuisance" is ever good. It's not a matter of whether there are laws to follow; it's a matter of appropriate level of response, which is a matter of good more than of law.

But Kubota isn't a potential nuisance: he is a nuisance. He didn't surrender to get in prison; I am willing to bet he has a plan not to get in prison, an a solid one.

It is not killing him for being a potential nuisance, which would be an evil act, or at best a neutral one; it's killing him because if he is left alive people will suffer from it, because he is the kind of person that cannot be neutralized any other way.
I'm not saying this is the only available point of view for someone chaotic good, I'm just saying it doesn't go against the idea of "good" to do so: In the mind of some chaotic good people, if you can't put the bad guy in jail, it's better to kill him before someone else suffers because of him.

It is, however, completely chaotic.

[LuisDantas]

for whatever reason, Hinjo doesn't seem to use his Detect Evil quite as much as Miko :smallwink:

He has had little reason to. He has known Kubota for years and is certain to know his alignment full well already.

Besides, it is lousy etiquette to go detecting evil around. Miko did not mind being rude, and she had a good reason to try and find out the OOtS alignments to begin with.

[rman]

Tiny nitpick: Lord Kubota is surely going to bring Assault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault) and Battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)) charges, unless that shiner is just for comedic effect :smalltongue:


Stop [punch]
Resisting [stab]
Arrest [slash]

Lord Kubota had already demonstrated possession of a ring of poison. In order to properly and safely apprehend him one on one the correct process would be to beat him into unconsciousness, strip him, and search him with detect magic. The truely paranoid would keep him unconscious for 3 days to make sure his bowels cleared before letting him regain consciousness. As he has demonstrated communication with imps/devils one would also be wise to keep him in an antimagic zone where telepathic communication was impossible. Or just feed him a potion that reduces his int/wisdom to 3.

[Warren Dew]

Third option: Kubota is familar with rowing and the Giant knows that in some Asian and Indonesian countries, people traditionally row facing forward.

That sounds like it would look rather different than pictured. Link to the types of boats they do this with?

[Martok]

I love Elan's lines in the 5th panel when a suddenly-panicking Kubota points out that they're both sinking:

"Gosh, really? Good thing I'm not wearing any armor!"


Bad. Ass. :smallamused:

[Timespike]

Heh. It's cool to see all the heroes being so heroic these days. Nice comic. Great to see the good guys catching a break, too. I hope Elan doesn't turn his back, or that ring's going to get used on him, too.


I love Elan's lines in the 5th panel when a suddenly-panicking Kubota points out that they're both sinking:

"Gosh, really? Good thing I'm not wearing any armor!"


Bad. Ass. :smallamused:

Hell yeah.

[Imgran]

To the comfort of those who want a more permanent solution to the Kubota problem, consider this:

Elan is ethically forbidden to kill a surrendered man, or whatever. So he can't do anything to Kubota on purpose.

But if there was ever a man who could luck and bumble and err his way into a perfect solution to a problem, it's Elan. Don't be too surprised if in the next few strips Elan does a full-on Elan like we haven't seen for a long time.

Of course I think it's more likely that we wind up with a situation where Kubota causes an awful lot of trouble while a prisoner and either escapes, gets released or goes into exile. Kubota has recurring villain written all over him.

BTW -- the comic has hinted at this a couple times, but why do I get the sense that Elan seems to be trying to be Roy? That line, "good thing I'm not wearing any armor," would have been vintage Roy while he was alive. It wasn't ever exactly Elan's style to come in to the room with sword drawn and immediately attack, not even after he became the Dashing Swordsman.

For the record, Hinjo seems to be a little reluctant to wield power. Why the heck isn't the Azurite column under martial law? It would hardly be unjustified by either history or the situation. That would rout the whole magistrate business.

Oh, and for the record, I'm curious: What happened to the trainees and initiates from the Sapphire Guard that weren't yet ready for combat action but had some ability? The initiates or whatever? There had to be some -- an organization like that can't exist without continually perpetuating itself..

[brilliantlight]

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.

Yes, exactly. Too bad he punched him just once. Beaten to a pulp would have been the least Kubota deserves.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

Good for Elan! Being just a tad toward evil to give Kubota a tad of what he deserves!

[Dausuul]

Am I the first person to catch the "going down with her ship" joke?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Am I the first person to catch the "going down with her ship" joke?

I... I think that's an unintentional joke. The Giant couldn't have meant to refer to any Therklan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PortmanteauCoupleName) Shippers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) out there... could he? :smalleek:

[Dausuul]

I... I think that's an unintentional joke. The Giant couldn't have meant to refer to any Therklan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PortmanteauCoupleName) Shippers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) out there... could he? :smalleek:

I'm fairly sure it was deliberate. It's a pretty weird line otherwise. Granted, it is Elan talking, but still.

[brilliantlight]

What is Kubota's game though? He wouldn't surrender without seeing something in it for himself. Is he expecting to get let off the hook, or is he expecting to be busted from jail?

Let's look at the charges facing him:

Consorting with Devils, three counts of attempted murder (Hinjo, and the new nobles). That's just the baseline minimum in my tired state.

What is his game?

Don't forget muder one (Therkla)!

[Callista]

How come that boat isn't sinking any faster?

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm fairly sure it was deliberate. It's a pretty weird line otherwise. Granted, it is Elan talking, but still.

I thought he was just being metaphorical. Y'know, because Therkla was wholly controlled by Lord Kubota, and he killed her (sank her). And because of that, Lord Kubota must die.

Yes, it's a clumsy metaphor, but it is Elan we're talking about here :smallbiggrin:

The alternative is just too frightening to contemplate :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

I love it! Elan's actions are priceless. But Kubota isn't down for the count yet, otherwise they have no villain to fight. I mean really, Quarr? I doubt he netted any more super-fiends in poker.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Dude, Panel 5 is so fitting.

"You'll sink us both!"
"Gosh, really? Good thing im not wearing any armor!"
:DD
Take your +5 armor, stick it up your pipe, and smoke it! :DD

:D That was my favorite bit too.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

Kubato: You are one Magnificent Bastard.
Elan: Your puch hit with the anger of all of us here on the forum. Kudos.

Mrs. Kato: You shouldn't waste your breath on that, just yell for durkon again, or better yet V. It will be better for the team.

Those are my thoughts. Peace.

[tyckspoon]

For the record, Hinjo seems to be a little reluctant to wield power. Why the heck isn't the Azurite column under martial law? It would hardly be unjustified by either history or the situation. That would rout the whole magistrate business.


Well. Ethically, Hinjo may simply not like the idea. Pragmatically, martial law requires either being or having the support of the people with the martial power to make it stick. Hinjo has neither- as a paladin of the Sapphire Guard, he (presumably) had little to nothing in the way of personal men-at-arms, and his own ship was filled with refugees instead of soldiers. The nobles in the fleet are the ones with the military might to sustain martial law, right now, and many of them are at best ambivalent about supporting Hinjo.

[Requiem_Jeer]

How come that boat isn't sinking any faster?

Boats float because wood floats, and when you place something on wood, it can still support weight. Just because a boat isn't intact, doesn't mean it is still made of (floating) wood. It likely hit it's buoyancy point, and will sink no further.

However, If Kubota moves and permits the boat to go fully vertical (His weight prevents this), it will promptly sink.

It's physics. A liberal application of half dozen principles of physics, but still physics.

[Ellen]

Man, where's Belkar when you need him? Surrender never stopped him.

On the other hand, about Qarr,

I think he has goals that have nothing to do with Kubota's. My guess is that his overlords sent him to further their goals and that working with Kubota was helping.

Now that Kubota's plans have mostly fallen apart, Qarr is moving on. He's either cutting his losses or else he's actually accomplished his goal and no longer needs to pretend to serve Kubota.

Either that or he's really upset over what happened to his poker pal.

[pendell]

Thank you. Glad to see the second one.

From a game perspective, it makes perfect sense. Of course Elan will attempt to attack Kubota. And of course there is only one move kubota can make. He can't win a battle, and he can't run. So he naturally surrenders because he knows that a good guy can't just murder a surrendering prisoner. He's smart enough to do the one and only thing he CAN do to save his life.

And as we saw much earlier, Elan is good, not neutral. It worked.

From the perspective of a reader, I'm mildly disappointed. Not that Elan did the right thing, but that this means this arc is going to continue a little longer. I had hoped that this strip would end the arc. But it hasn't. We need at least one more strip in order to address the events of this strip.

With all due respect, IMO the arc is starting to drag a bit. Maybe it'll read better in the graphic novel, but I'm ready for it to end.

Still, that's only mild because I just read War and XPs, and I saw some of this in one of the bonus strips


Strip 310b. Lord shojo speaks:
"Hinjo has grown up into a good, honorable man -- which unfortunately makes him singularly unsuited to the task of governing Azure City and it's territories. I'm not worried, though. Give him another ten years of instruction, and his naive idealism will fall like kobolds before a high level fighter."

Also in the introduction to Round 7: The battle of Azure City, The Giant himself writes:

"Here was my opportunity to show what Hinjo was really like: honorable, noble, good-hearted, and in way over his head."

So now it's a learning experience for Hinjo. What has he learned over the past few months? Is he now ready to permanently stop Kubota from carrying out his schemes? If so, how? Will he be able to do it without falling?

I guess we'll find out



So I can see that this has been foreshadowed, and I'm interested to see how it plays out ... I just wish it would play out faster!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Red XIV]

For all we know, Kubota may have been the moderate voice in the House, the one person of power who was against using direct force against Hinjo.
All the better. That would allow Hinjo to take the gloves off. Kubota's behind-the-scenes manipulations mean that Hinjo, as a Paladin and thus required to strictly adhere to Lawful Good alignment, must wait until he has proof to act. A direct assault on the other hand allows Hinjo and his allies to just kill the attackers on the spot. And might even give him justification for disbanding House Kubota altogether.

Given that Kubota has shown himself willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish his goals, I would imagine his unwillingness to simply stage a coup openly is a matter of pragmatism. He knows that success would be less likely if he took that path. Remember, Hinjo is a probably level 11-12 paladin, and is protected by a slightly lower-level paladin and a trio of around level 13 PCs. House Kubota's samurai and ninja would probably be hard-pressed to even give that group a level-appropriate challenge.


He has had little reason to. He has known Kubota for years and is certain to know his alignment full well already.

Besides, it is lousy etiquette to go detecting evil around. Miko did not mind being rude, and she had a good reason to try and find out the OOtS alignments to begin with.
And it's presumably not a crime under Azure City law to merely have Evil alignment. If it were, Shojo could've dealt with the problematic nobles years ago simply by sending Miko after them.


Oh, and for the record, I'm curious: What happened to the trainees and initiates from the Sapphire Guard that weren't yet ready for combat action but had some ability? The initiates or whatever? There had to be some -- an organization like that can't exist without continually perpetuating itself..
Back in the battle preparations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html), Hinjo assigns the "newbies" (low-level paladins) to guard the civilians in case Xykon's army makes it into the city. How many of them survived when the city was breached is (except maybe to the Giant) unknown. But it's entirely possible that, if these rookie paladins were herding the civilians to the evacuation ships, some of them could be in the fleet now.

[ericgrau]

Wood with a big weight on it does not float. Boats do not rely on the bouyancy of wood to float. 95% of their bouyancy comes from the air inside, which is now diminished. The Navy's steel boats would like to have a word with you, righter after Archimedes is done.

Any body fully or partially submerged in a fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced.

A boat only displaces water below the water level. If you add some weight, it sinks lower until the weight of the displaced fluid matches the weight of what's floating. You'll notice that the boat in the comic isn't displacing any water, outside of the volume of the submerged wood, which isn't very much. A square foot of 1 inch thick wood will only float 1.5 lbs (actually 4.5lbs, but that much wood weighs 3lbs.). So the comic isn't very accurate, the boat should be sinking fairly rapidly now. And when it does, you'll notice that there is no additional bouyancy to counter the sinking, unlike a level boat. So the boat should go all the way under water pretty fast now, unless Elan lets the boat get level again.

[pendell]

Geneva covers official acts of sovereign states, however. Yes, I know you're only drawing a parallel.

False. Geneva convention covers non-state actors such as guerrilla movements, partisans, etc. There are specific rules for how a guerrilla or rebel is supposed to behave -- wearing a sign visible at a distance, for example -- but a guerrilla force operating by those rules can expected to receive the fair treatment in return.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SPoD]

I... I think that's an unintentional joke. The Giant couldn't have meant to refer to any Therklan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PortmanteauCoupleName) Shippers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping) out there... could he? :smalleek:

Elan was about to strike. In order to strike with maximum efficiency, his Dashing Swordsman class requires that he speaks a pun. The situation being what it is, a subtle pun that works both on the surface (as poetic metaphor) and as a wordplay on the idea of "shipping" is perfectly appropriate.

So yes, I think it was definitely an intentional pun, one that was "for her".

[dogmac]

Aaah, Kuboto, before I just thought you were a bit of an arrogant git, but you have won me over with that last line there.

Naturally you will be. Only course to take.

[Nightfall]

I'm sure Elan will screw it up. So where is a hungry shark when you need one? :smallfurious:


Isn't Lien's "paladin steed" a shark? I'm just sayin'.....:smallbiggrin:

[Grey Watcher]

Am I the first person to catch the "going down with her ship" joke?

I don't think so.... It's a little obscure for a wink-to-the-boards kinda joke. I just took that to refer to perhaps Kubota using the same rowboat she and Elan used to get back to the ship?

[Red XIV]

Isn't Lien's "paladin steed" a shark? I'm just sayin'.....:smallbiggrin:
I don't think we should feed Razor something that vile. He might get indigestion, and who knows how messy that could get with a shark.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I don't think so.... It's a little obscure for a wink-to-the-boards kinda joke. I just took that to refer to perhaps Kubota using the same rowboat she and Elan used to get back to the ship?

But it doesn't have to be the same rowboat, does it? I presumed that Lord Kubota used whatever boat he used to get there in the first place, since he arrived before Therkla & Elan did (so he wouldn't have known where it was).

I'm chalking this one up to over-analysis and moving on :smallbiggrin:

[Mr._Blinky]

Heh, "Now you're going down with her ship (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Shipping).":smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Marduk Prophet]

Considering Elan is more Chaotic Good (or as is described in the comic) I was definitely expecting an end (or attempted end) to Kubota in this panel. Nonetheless, Elan is more a sucker for lawful justice than sometimes is apparent, so I suppose its not uncharacteristic of him.

Loved the comic, keep the funny coming.


..And what is with everyone and tropes? Its like an addiction on this forum.

[TheNovak]

I know it's now become a trope in itself to mention this stuff 'round here, but man...if Kubota wasn't firmly in Magnificent Bastard territory before, he is now.

Goddamn smart villains, taking advantage of heroism.

[David Argall]

If this were real life. Scenario : you were eating at a restraunt when a moderately attractive girl you know tells you she wants to be "more than friends". As you already have a girlfriend, you reject her.

Soon after you do so, a mad gunman bursts in to the restraunt and fires off a few rounds, one of which strikes the girl in the forehead, killing her instantly. This being Texas, you duck behind a table, whip out your concealed pistol, and return fire. You manage to wing the bad guy, and he makes a run for a car in the parking lot. You give chase, and just as you get a clear shot, he drops his firearm and puts his hands in the air. The cops are not there yet.

Do you accept the gunman's surrender? Or fire until the magazine's empty?

To start with, we don't slap him around, no matter what we decide.
Now on just the facts presented, you accept surrender. You just do not know enough about the situation to be sure about the justice of killing him.
But we can correct that in ways that make killing morally justified. Perhaps you recognize him from the headlines when some judge ruled he was too crazy to be found guilty of any crime, but was somehow not eligible to be
stashed in a nut house and must be allowed to roam the streets. Since this danger will not be handled any other way, you are justified in removing it yourself. Perhaps you recognize him as the chief of Police's brother, who is not going to be jailed under any circumstances.
More likely you would know circumstances that make it improper to shoot, but the point is that no automatic decision can be made here, and there are cases where killing is justified.



I don't think killing someone just for being a "potential nuisance" is ever good. It's not a matter of whether there are laws to follow; it's a matter of appropriate level of response, which is a matter of good more than of law.
Now the question is the level of potential. Ultimately all nuisances are merely potential. 99.99% is still not 100%. But nobody is going to arrest you for shooting first if those are the odds. However, they will arrest you if the odds are 9%.



We arent talking about right or wrong here. We are talking about good and evil. We arent saying killing Kubota woudnt have been justified, just that killing someone is NEVER more good then letting them live. As I already said, someone really good would never kill someone even in self-defense.
Recall we are "playing" D&D here, where the heros have killed hundreds. Accordingly, we reject out of hand the idea that it's never right to kill. Our heros have killed frequently, and will again, without stain to their morals.



How come that boat isn't sinking any faster?
It's wood. It could be light enough that it can't sink.

[horngeek]

Kubota has just taken his place as a proper Magnificent Bastard.

[Hyozo]

..And what is with everyone and tropes? Its like an addiction on this forum.

What do you mean by "like"?

[Rev. George]

Sometimes I wonder if the Giant doesn't update as often as he might because he is too busy trying to put the answers to all of our questions into the strip- what kind of poison? why doesn't elan just use "neutralize poison", etc. Every time a good question/idea/whatever get asked here, it ends up being answered.

-+G

[Ron Miel]

Boats float because wood floats,

Erm, no.
.

[Ron Miel]

Am I the first person to catch the "going down with her ship" joke?

What joke?

[TheNovak]

Really? Consider a situation similar to a number of those in the real world now - a dictator or corrupt leader has a tight grip on the reigns of power in their territory. They aren't an actual threat to your country and mainly just engage in foreign policy stunts that are rattling the saber against you and your allies. Not a threat, but destabilizing the region and generally a pain in the butt to you and yours. Yet within their territory, the leader is conducting genocide against an ethnic minority. Thousands have died.

Killing that person is, in my view, entirely justified in that scenario.

Extremely-thinly-veiled political commentary is a go!

[synnerman]

Aw, I wished Elan would have killed him...period.

[Woof]

Honestly, I have a bad feeling about this. Kubota wouldn't just surrender like that if he hadn't a reasonably safe way of getting away with his crimes.

[Niley]

Oh no... I hate villains who cower behind the law. :furious: I hope something kills Kubota before he can meet up with Hinjo.

[Dausuul]

What joke?

This one (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShipSinking).

Since any possible Elan/Therkla ships have just been rather thoroughly sunk.

[Jubal_Barca]

Kubota isn't actually unarmed you realise...

Ohnoes in case he poisons Elan..!

[factotum]

Honestly, I have a bad feeling about this. Kubota wouldn't just surrender like that if he hadn't a reasonably safe way of getting away with his crimes.

Why do people keep saying this? Kubota was finished...if he did nothing, then all Elan has to do is wait for the boat to sink and Kubota drowns due to that heavy armour he's wearing. Being alive is preferable to being dead no matter what the circumstances, so Kubota surrenders, being reasonably sure Elan won't kill him once he's done that. He might well come up with a plan to weasel his way out of things later, but I doubt he has one now.

The only thing that supports your argument is that Kubota didn't surrender until after he saw the stone demon on the island; we don't know what he would have done if the demon had still been alive.

[H. Zee]

Elan, you legend. It's about time Kubota got punched in the face.

[Raznath]

All I gotta say is that I miss Therkla.

[FujinAkari]

Kubota isn't actually unarmed you realise...

Ohnoes in case he poisons Elan..!

Kubota explicitly said he had to use his last dose, so we know he can't poison Elan (at least with that ring)

[Felius]

Sure probably it would save a LOT headache in the future if Elan just said: "Thank you, that makes my job easier. Coup de Grace." But that's hardly something he would do. It would both go against the good part of his alignment and the dramatic of it. :smalltongue:

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Heheh, oh Kubota, never change. Seriously, since he's a good villain, and one you can really enjoy when seeing his plans get foiled and want to get beaten (more so after poor Therkla).

And I'm kind of happy it went down like this, it was funny, and with Kubota alive it will give Hinjo a chance to show his leadership chops in a different kind of situation - how will he deal with this, what could be a pretty challenging political problem?

Though his timing was interesting, he looked alarmed, but the moment he got a good look at Rocky the devil his attitude changed, he happily surrendered, even looked smug about it. I wonder if he has taken it as a sign something that helps him will come out of it (maybe he thinks Qarr is went off to do something helpful once he realised something had happened on the island?) Or maybe he's just thinking it will be easy to deal with Hinjo (wouldn't it be a shock if Hinjo went all crusading Paladin on him?)


Honestly, I have a bad feeling about this. Kubota wouldn't just surrender like that if he hadn't a reasonably safe way of getting away with his crimes.

I don't know, he might have a plan. Or he might just be working on the "buy some time to come up with a plan" principal.


Kubota isn't actually unarmed you realise...

Ohnoes in case he poisons Elan..!

I'm guessing he can't poison anyone, since he said he just used his last dose of Lotus extract (though Elan wouldn't know this unless he has really good hearing).

Curses. Ninja strike.

[brized]

What would you do?

If you were playing Elan as a gamer?

If this were real life. Scenario : you were eating at a restraunt when a moderately attractive girl you know tells you she wants to be "more than friends". As you already have a girlfriend, you reject her.

Soon after you do so, a mad gunman bursts in to the restraunt and fires off a few rounds, one of which strikes the girl in the forehead, killing her instantly...Inaccurate analogy. If this was real life, you'd be caught in a hostage situation where the perp in question had two goons ready to kill two of your friends - a married couple, with the wife being pregnant. The perp has already sent assassins to try to kill your two friends, as evidenced by the dead bodies of the assassins in the room and the physical state of your friends. Not only that, but you're being held hostage, too!

You've already been briefed on the background of the perp, by a female ally who is infatuated with you. Thus you know that the perp is conspiring to murder the currently standing ruler (think of an equivalent to Hinjo here). The standing ruler also personally knows you.

The girl saves you and your friends, but the perp murders the girl. Then the perp flees and you get the perp where you want him, but he's out of ammo and surrenders. What do you do?

That's a bit more accurate real life translation of the situation. You completely removed the context of the situation by focusing only on the direct murder of the girl. There is so much more at stake!

Anyway, for me personally, it's a tough choice, not only on the matter of whether or not to kill someone who is no longer posing an immediate threat. The other part is that a ruler as incorruptible as Hinjo probably doesn't exist in real life. If you killed the perp, most high-end politicians in the world would sweep the incident under the rug for you, due to all the circumstances. You'd probably be rewarded in some way, too.

So...with that moral hazard in mind, it'd be more tempting to follow through, especially with the perp taunting you with how he'll weasel his way out of he gets tried in court. But if you kill him, someone like Hinjo would probably try you under the letter of the law and let justice be served blindly, which would make things less tempting. I can't say for sure what I'd do in either case. Who could, really? It's a real hell of a situation to be caught in.

[RosesOnConcrete]

"Good thing I'm not wearing any armor!" Oh, one bright shining moment of Badassery before it all goes south (damn morality...). And yes, that punch hit with all the force of hundreds of screaming Therkla fans. Hope that hurt, Kubota you bastard.

And the "ship sinking" joke is just too perfectly placed to have been anything but intentional. Very well played, Giant.

Elan - you may not be able to kill him yourself, but nothing says you have to save him.

[Tundar]

Nice off hand punch!

Time to abandon ship.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Elan's finest moment, I think.

[Jenx]

Ok, time for some nitpicking. What I bugged me wasn't the way Kabuta was rowing his boat or how the boat didn't sink, but how Kabuta saw the island.
Now, I've taken the liberty of scribling all over the last two strips, just so I can make my point.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2003/example1ex1.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example1ex1.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8558/example2eb5.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example2eb5.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

As I've pointed out, it's really safe to asume that the boat is heading in the general direction of the island. This is further reinfroced by the fact that on the panel where Kabuta finally notices the huge stone'd (hehe) demon, there aren't any other ships visible. But by the way the boat was facing, he should have been able to spot this from panel one in the second strip, not after he turned around, since then he should be facing the ship he was escaping, not the island.

Of course, it might be just me missing something, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

[RMS Oceanic]

I imagine that when Elan landed on the boat, his momentum may have caused the boat to turn around partially.

Maybe I'm too skeptic, but seeing Kubota smile like that makes me think he's confident any charges Hinjo attempts to bring won't stick. I'm not sure how they couldn't, but maybe two witnesses friendly to Hinjo, who has previously attempted to render charges against Kubota, may not be the most reliable in the legal system.

Or maybe I watch too much Law & Order, where the defence attourney has an annoying habit of shredding witness credibility and suppressing slam-dumk evidence.

[Jenx]

I imagine that when Elan landed on the boat, his momentum may have caused the boat to turn around partially.

I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure things don't work that way. Also, as shown in my example, Kabuta should have been able to see the island and the demon from the moment he got on his boat, since he is facing their way (or in their general direction). So why did it take Elan to jump on the boat (and supposedly turning it around, and him turning around as well just to notice it?)

[Eric]

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.

Pfft. As the great Max Headroom once said, if you can't kick a man when he's down, when can you kick him?

Next step, I suspect is to get back on Hinjo's junk, tie him up (what? are the knos too tight? Awww) and then await Hinjo's return. Alternatively, Elan can say "Well, it's a bit late to surrender now that the boat is sinking. If you'd surrendered earlier, maybe you wouldn't be drowning. Oh poot. :-)"

I suspect Quar isn't there because V's zapped that little bugger into the next dimension for wasting his time on combat when he wants to be finding Haley.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm no physicist, but I'm pretty sure things don't work that way.

Well, the artwork makes us assume he landed straight. He could have landed at a slight angle, which would have given the boat a push to the left/right.

[Adventurer]

Lots of people are calling Elan's choice of not killing Kubota as "Lawful".

How many of you can honestly say that if Elan had killed him, you wouldn't come here and say what Elan did was "Evil"?

[Eric]

President of the Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustment(SHELA)


You know there's both an "i" in "Sheila" AND in the word "in" just before "Level" and Just after "Equality"?

[Jenx]

Well, the artwork makes us assume he landed straight. He could have landed at a slight angle, which would have given the boat a push to the left/right.

In that way of thinking, he could have also made a double flip before he landed on the boat. But he wasn't shown doing it, so we are to assume he didn't. And I'm pretty sure that if the boat got turned around in any way, the Giant would have bothered drawing it turn around.

[Eric]

What would you do?

If you were playing Elan as a gamer?

If this were real life. Scenario : you were eating at a restraunt when a moderately attractive girl you know tells you she wants to be "more than friends". As you already have a girlfriend, you reject her.

Soon after you do so, a mad gunman bursts in to the restraunt and fires off a few rounds, one of which strikes the girl in the forehead, killing her instantly. This being Texas, you duck behind a table, whip out your concealed pistol, and return fire. You manage to wing the bad guy, and he makes a run for a car in the parking lot. You give chase, and just as you get a clear shot, he drops his firearm and puts his hands in the air. The cops are not there yet.

Do you accept the gunman's surrender? Or fire until the magazine's empty?

Remember, it's Texas, so assume for this scenario that you will be hailed a hero regardless.

Bang.

If there were several victims (so it wasn't a "justifiable homicide" as this return fire would be, but demonstrably a nutter going off the deep end), it wouldn't matter to me if the girl who wanted to be my girlfriend was killed.

No need to unload, just a shot either right in the head or if I were close enough in the chest, just below the heart for a quick painless kill.

You don't torture a rabid stoat to death, you just remove it from life as quickly and painlessly (and as risk free to yourself) as possible.

[Eric]

What is Kubota's game though? He wouldn't surrender without seeing something in it for himself. Is he expecting to get let off the hook, or is he expecting to be busted from jail?

Let's look at the charges facing him:

Consorting with Devils, three counts of attempted murder (Hinjo, and the new nobles). That's just the baseline minimum in my tired state.

What is his game?

What's the issue. Either he dies of drowning right here, right now and is dead now. OR he surrenders and even if he's going to die, he lives some time. Even if he has *no chance* of avoiding justice, this means he lives longer. And putting off the inevitable is really all life is about.

Now if you add on that he could commute his sentence by abdicating his status and giving over his troops loyalty and leaving (he's still served justice and still alive), or he gets saved by the other nobles not wanting a noble to see justice (since one of them could be done next for attempting to increase their power), or he could escape prison while awaiting trial (they don't have an anti-magic cell any more). Well, why not surrender? It's dropping a certainty for a later uncertainty.

[Eric]

I don't think killing someone just for being a "potential nuisance" is ever good. It's not a matter of whether there are laws to follow; it's a matter of appropriate level of response, which is a matter of good more than of law.

If you're much more lawful than good, you may see "the greater good" served by a "small evil" now.

See: Miko.

The reason why Elan saves the surrender is that the greater good is not his concern. He's chaotic good. This means he doesn't obey laws necessarily and he doesn't believe in the "greater good". To a chaotic, the greater good is just a lot of individual "smaller good"s.

An extreme version of this is that even the incorrigible evil individual could change and be good. The power of the individual to change is paramount. So a lawful good party would slaughter a village of goblins to remove the one with the red cloak because "the greater good" is the removal of that person and the fate of the individuals subservient to that. If they were Chaotic Good, they would find out who it was and either kill that one person and take the cloak or just take the cloak if possible.

[MasterDinadan]

I'm curious as to why Kazumi yelled for him to wait.
Of course, it could merely be that she fears for his safety.
In the previous strip, Elan told Daigo not to go after Kubota, not knowing his poison was used up. Maybe Kazumi has the same concern...

I'm still curious about V though. Seems like something is definitely up.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Boats float because wood floats,

No they don't. Boats float because they're full of air—otherwise it would be impossible to make a steel boat.

[Samurai Jill]

New comic is up.
...Where is Elan and what have you done with him?!


The reason why Elan saves the surrender is that the greater good is not his concern. He's chaotic good. This means he doesn't obey laws necessarily and he doesn't believe in the "greater good". To a chaotic, the greater good is just a lot of individual "smaller good"s.
Uhh... see Shojo. A certainly-not-Lawful character willing to commit abduction, blackmail and mass deception for his conception of the GG.

Personally, I consider Elan's actions here to be, well, kinda Lawful. He's sticking to his ethical guns despite overwhelming evidence the net results won't be Good.

[hamishspence]

I think this if really to do with the distinction between Killing and Murder in D&D. We all know that D&D characters are allowed to kill, under certain circumstances: See Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds.

But it is explicitly stated that they are not allowed to Murder, in both of these, and Fiendish Codex 2 even gives the different Murders different corruption ratings (Murder, Cold-blooded Murder (typically premeditated or decided rationally) and Murder for Pleasure (serial-killer type)

So the question would be: is killing someone who has just spoken the words: "I surrender" and is unarmed, Murder? and do you have the right to presume they are not really unarmed? Kubota is not at war with Azure city, which makes it a case of police matter, not Geneva Convention soldierly matter.

In Night Watch, the hero takes the villain alive, even when they fake surrender then try to stab the hero (Carcer, taken alive by Vimes) However, Vimes is very strongly Lawful, and Good/Neutral borderline, depending on who's arguing.

As for violence on a captured villain, this, while morally dubious (Exalted deeds suggests violence should be of the appropiate level to the situation, to be Good) its not surprising. Firefly: "A great man would let you go unharmed"- LIGHT STAB- "Guess I'm just a good man"

[Palthera]

Ok, time for some nitpicking. What I bugged me wasn't the way Kabuta was rowing his boat or how the boat didn't sink, but how Kabuta saw the island.
Now, I've taken the liberty of scribling all over the last two strips, just so I can make my point.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2003/example1ex1.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example1ex1.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8558/example2eb5.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example2eb5.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

As I've pointed out, it's really safe to asume that the boat is heading in the general direction of the island. This is further reinfroced by the fact that on the panel where Kabuta finally notices the huge stone'd (hehe) demon, there aren't any other ships visible. But by the way the boat was facing, he should have been able to spot this from panel one in the second strip, not after he turned around, since then he should be facing the ship he was escaping, not the island.

Of course, it might be just me missing something, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

Kabuta isn't heading towards the island. He's heading away from it back to his own ship.

Order = Island... Hinjo's ship he just left... Kabuta in the rower... Kabuta's ship (vaguely speaking).

However, these objects are not in a 1D line, so his view to the island doesn't necessarily have to have the ship in view.

[Taekwondodo]

Kabuta isn't heading towards the island. He's heading away from it back to his own ship.

Order = Island... Hinjo's ship he just left... Kabuta in the rower... Kabuta's ship (vaguely speaking).

However, these objects are not in a 1D line, so his view to the island doesn't necessarily have to have the ship in view.

yeah that could make sense as you didnt see which end of the ship the island was off.

WOOH Elan!:smallbiggrin:

[derfenrirwolv]

Being good does NOT mean you avoid killing at all costs. It means you avoid killing people for the wrong reasons. The question is when is it the RIGHT reason?

Lawfull Good rulers execute people because THEY DESERVE IT. While other factors such as setting an example and not wanting to put them in prison for life, the fact is that some people deserve to die for their actions.

War. When your nation calls, you are legally bound to show up. In a D&D universe obeying your leige lord is also a moral obligation as well as a legal one.

They just plain have it comming: This is more for the chaotic good types, or the neutral types dabling. While its certainly possible for a NG or CG type (like elan) to be soft hearted they don't HAVE to be that way.

Good characters protect INNOCENT life and make sacrifices for others. Refusing to kill ANYONE simply burdens the rest of the populace with the inevitable escape and subsequent deaths caused by the villian you're imprisoning. Good characters can make the sacrifice to their own inclinations and sacrifice their own good nights sleep for a while to do the right thing... which is to prevent Lord fancy pants here from using his wealth and position to weasle his way out of the just desserts of his own actions. He's wearing heavy armor and holding a ring you think is poisoned. Make that +5 armor the next row in davey jone's locker.

[Eric]

No they don't. Boats float because they're full of air—otherwise it would be impossible to make a steel boat.

So when I throw a stick in the water, it will sink?

Never played pooh-sticks, I take it...

PS *steel* boats float because they're full of air, otherwise it would be impossible to make a steel boat. Impossibility of a steel boat without this factor is not impossibility of making a wooden boat. Or polystyrene. Or Balsa. Heck, ICE floats, despite having very little air in it.

[Eric]

Uhh... see Shojo. A certainly-not-Lawful character willing to commit abduction, blackmail and mass deception for his conception of the GG.

Personally, I consider Elan's actions here to be, well, kinda Lawful. He's sticking to his ethical guns despite overwhelming evidence the net results won't be Good.

Yup, but Shojo's JOB was to look after the city and ensure the gate was protected. That's very different from this.

Lawful is most often written in the books as "will keep your word". Elan has given no word to keep. Miko would certainly stabbity stab here. Because for her, LAW is more important than GOOD. For Elan, GOOD is more important than CHAOS.

[Akeaka]

The conspiracy theorist within me says that this is all actually a plot to deceive Elan, and that Mrs. Pregnant is in cahoots with Kabuta, thus the "Elan, wait!"; and not for just practical reasons (see Jumping off Ship After Quaffing Potion, etc), and that her baby is actually a demon spawn, all hatched together by Quarr's big brother's ex-roommate to get revenge on Elan, whom in a previous life, stepped on and promptly ate him.

Woo, go 3:40am ideas!

gg.

[Najian]

Floating is explained by Archimedes' Principle :smallamused:


an object(let's say a boat huh) has to displace an amount of water which equals its weight. So a hollow object is most likely to float because of it's light weight compared to its size, which gives it a high displacement of water.
Boats are essentialy being buoyed up. The water pushes them up.

What do they learn you kids at school nowadays :smallbiggrin:

[Red XIV]

Uhh... see Shojo. A certainly-not-Lawful character willing to commit abduction, blackmail and mass deception for his conception of the GG.
But not, as far as we know, murder.

And Elan has shown 525 strips ago (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) that he's not one to kill a surrendered enemy, no matter how much they deserve it.

[Samurai Jill]

Lawful is most often written in the books as "will keep your word". Elan has given no word to keep. Miko would certainly stabbity stab here. Because for her, LAW is more important than GOOD. For Elan, GOOD is more important than CHAOS.
There is nothing Good about sparing Kubota here. He's an unequivocally Evil character, with direct and manifest ambitions to kill Hinjo, and doesn't care who else gets axxed in the process- if he lives, you can only look forward to more of it in future. Killing Evil beings because they're obviously intent on further Evil is not an Evil act.
Sure, he's surrendered, and unarmed, which means he's no longer threatening Elan- but he wasn't a direct threat to Elan to begin with, which is why he ran away- and Elan was perfectly content to kill him right then!

...I guess it's only okay to kill defenceless, non-threatening targets if they have funny skin pigmentation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html). Yes, strict adherence to the Azure City's laws and due process means you'd have to bring him into custody. ...But Elan's Chaotic! What the hell does Lawfulness have to do with him in the first place?!

Look, this is like Mace Windu finally cornering Palpatine.
"He controls both the senate and the courts... He's too dangerous to live."
The only sane thing to do is breach your standing honour code (assuming that you even have one) in order to keep a mass-murdering megalomaniac from assuming power. Elan may never have this chance again. I mean, all he has to do is not bend over backwards to rescue the son-of-a-bitch. (Heck, if Batman can do it, so can he.)

[sgtrocknroll]

But he's Good first, so killing an unarmed man who has surrendered isn't acceptable.

True. but isn't killing off an evil villain, who is taking advantage of the system to get off, to keep him from victimizing further innocents even more good?

Kind of like the Batman/Joker syndrome. where Bats is good, so he doesn't kill Joker even tho he knows Joker will never be sane or reform, thus leading to more deaths.

I like the idea of saying "I'm good, but i'm also Chaotic" then stabbing him. Especially as Chaotic is a requirement of the Bard class, Good isn't, and doing what he did should shift him towards Lawful anyway, thus losing Bard abilities temporarily. Plus he's hired by Hinjo, as a mercenary, not a loyal subject. Plus he can always stab him even if he's good. Durkon can cast atonement later.

[Woof]

Why do people keep saying this?

Well, take a look at his smirk in the left bottom panel.

[Jenx]

What do they learn you kids at school nowadays :smallbiggrin:

They teach us proper English.:smallwink:

[Arioch]

Wow. Kabota was awesome there. That's exactly what I would have done. The look on Elan's face was priceless. :smallbiggrin:

[whitemane]

Elan is fast becoming my hero! I wanna grow up to be just like him!

[LuisDantas]

The reason why Elan saves the surrender is that the greater good is not his concern. He's chaotic good.

Possibly. But there are other, more likely, possibilities. See #503. Elan is reasonably aware of how much Kubota trusts the Azurite society to privilege him because he is a noble. Also, he has every reason that Kubota is a threat to the greater good and he is very troubled by that. But he has also been warned that using force against Kubota can have dire political consequences.

In this stance, it probably would be a bad idea indeed. Besides being an evil if understandable act, the nobility couldn't help but worry if Hinjo wasn't deciding to remove the opposition. That in turn would lead to open and possibly violent hostilities.

BTW, since even his red-handed capture will be seen with unease by the nobility, I believe Kubota is hoping for (perhaps even counting on) a politically-motivated bailing-out. This will indeed be a moment of definition for the future of the Azure City refugees.

[Yendor]

Possibly. But there are other, more likely, possibilities. See #503. Elan is reasonably aware of how much Kubota trusts the Azurite society to privilege him because he is a noble. Also, he has every reason that Kubota is a threat to the greater good and he is very troubled by that. But he has also been warned that using force against Kubota can have dire political consequences.

In this stance, it probably would be a bad idea indeed. Besides being an evil if understandable act, the nobility couldn't help but worry if Hinjo wasn't deciding to remove the opposition. That in turn would lead to open and possibly violent hostilities.

BTW, since even his red-handed capture will be seen with unease by the nobility, I believe Kubota is hoping for (perhaps even counting on) a politically-motivated bailing-out. This will indeed be a moment of definition for the future of the Azure City refugees.

I think you've got it. Hinjo really needs to have Kubota on trial -- ideally in a situation that allows as little opportunity for weaseling as possible. (I doubt a Being of Pure Law and Good would be swayed by your average courtroom antic.) Kubota's treachery needs to be exposed beyond any doubt, even by the nobles.

I can see several possibilities for what happens next:
Kubota demands a trial by his peers -- i.e., the nobles -- requiring the good guys to investigate whatever plans Qarr was referring to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) for when Kubota became Lord;
Kubota has a pre-planned hit on the magistrate in the event that he's captured, or;
The Order try to contact Celia for assistance with the trial. (Yes, she's only a student, but every bit helps.)

[Lissou]

Heh heh. That was funny. Kubota's pretty neat, and somehow Therkla's death makes more sense now that it's useless (Kubota's going to jail just like he would have if she had had it her way).
She didn't need to die... But that's probably the point.

I didn't find Elan awesome, or anything like some others, though. I thought "he's acting out of anger", and that made him a bad person in my mind. He's not the happy careless childish character anymore, he's someone who'll act on bad instincts (like anger or hate).
Oh well, he guess Elan DOES act on instincts. He did when he escaped the prison, too. I liked it better then, though :P

[Sebastian]

Emphasis mine. Elan saved his brother from falling off a cliff into a pit of monsters who would eat him, knowing that he was evil and dangerous. He would never kill a surrendering man, no matter how much trouble that man may cause later.

Emphasis mine.
And the reason that finally persuaded him to doing it was "if you let him die mom will be mad". This don't apply to Kubota.
Me? I'd kill him, even if it would mean shift toward chaotic neutral, it would be worth it.

[JessmanCA]

This Elan, Man of Action will take some getting used to, that seemed like a very Roy thing to do. Still a cool comic, just maybe out of character

[Karaswanton]

Every CG character I have ever played would have played out differently:

Kubota: I surrender, I accept my lawful punishment.
CG character:Chaotic Good.
Kubota: Wha-?
CG: *stab
Kubota: Damn.*dies*

Not that Elan's action was inconsistent, in fact honoring Kubota's surrender is more consistent with his naive view of the world.

[Marduk Prophet]

Lots of people are calling Elan's choice of not killing Kubota as "Lawful".

How many of you can honestly say that if Elan had killed him, you wouldn't come here and say what Elan did was "Evil"?

*raises his hand* Sometimes there is no other appropriate action.

Good means you'll do what is for the betterment of all.
Chaotic means you'll achieve that goal by any means necessary.

What Elan did with Kubota (thus far) is very clearly a Lawful Good, or as stated earlier, a "Roy" thing to do.

[chibibar]

While Elan is Chaotic Good, Elan is still good. He believe in the Law of the land (most of the time) so when Kubota surrendered. Elan can't kill him, but being Chaotic he can still punch him in the face. I love it.

[Marduk Prophet]

While all events surrounding Elan are open for interpretation, I would like to at least present this bit of data for people to read, regarding Chaotic Good. This is the definition that *I* was led to believe years ago.

http://wiki.avlis.org/Alignment#Chaotic_Good


Chaotic Good

The Chaotic Good mindset is a paradox of the desire for individuality and a benevolent concern for others. Chaotic Good characters are almost always strong minded and each tends to possess a unique moral compass about what exactly is right and what is wrong. These characters have a tendency to pass moral judgments based on their beliefs, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Despite this individualism, the definition of good, for most Chaotic Good characters, doesn't hurt anyone else.

Chaotic Good characters tend to be popular among players since it is mistakenly viewed as the only good alignment with room to slip up once in a while. That isn't true, for all good alignments can waver quite a bit. Chaotic Good characters, consciously or not, resist authority because they have a tendency to equate law with evil. They have the universal precept that every man should be left to his own to make up his own mind. In this aspect Chaotic Good characters can be very anarchistic, since they have a trust that people are capable of governing their own behavior.

As I said before, its all open to interpretation, since everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too (regardless of whether or not its a lie).

[Charity322]

Bah Elan shoulda killed him anyway, he deserved it. :smallmad: After all Hinjo can always raise him if he really wants him to stand trial.

[Level20Commoner]

Another good comic Mr. Burlew. While Black Lotus Extract was a good name to drop as far as poisons go (what with its astronomical price tag), I was personally hoping for Pit Fiend Venom (the only poison I've ever seen with instant death as a failure for the second save). Also, battery was the term Kubota should have used; assault is when Elan swings his fist at Kubota, battery is when Elan's fist touches Kubota's eye (though assault reads and sounds better from a storyteller's perspective). One thing to note for reader's who are hoping that Kubota gets a fitting punishment for murdering Therkla is the Azure City lawmaker's opinion on the use of poison. If Mustache-Lad lived in CA, he would learn to his dismay that the use of poison in a murder is one of the enhancements that allows the death penalty to be put up for consideration in a trial. Let us hope a similar law existed in Azure City.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm kinda late ^^'
Still, great comic, Giant! Didn't think Elan'd go after him right away... (though, I wonder why he just doesn't finish him off. Maybe death's a too easy gettaway for him)

[Zolem]

"I won't kill you, but that does not mean I have to save you." Elan :smallsmile:

I HOPE!

Oh sweet God I hope NOT! I always find people who throw out that type of line hypocritical bastards. I never like them, and I want to continue liking Elan.

[Dausuul]

Ok, time for some nitpicking. What I bugged me wasn't the way Kabuta was rowing his boat or how the boat didn't sink, but how Kabuta saw the island.
Now, I've taken the liberty of scribling all over the last two strips, just so I can make my point.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2003/example1ex1.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example1ex1.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8558/example2eb5.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example2eb5.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

As I've pointed out, it's really safe to asume that the boat is heading in the general direction of the island. This is further reinfroced by the fact that on the panel where Kabuta finally notices the huge stone'd (hehe) demon, there aren't any other ships visible. But by the way the boat was facing, he should have been able to spot this from panel one in the second strip, not after he turned around, since then he should be facing the ship he was escaping, not the island.

Of course, it might be just me missing something, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

There is no reason whatsoever to think the boat is heading toward the island.

Look at 593. In the panel where Kazumi is screaming for Durkon, you can see the island's position relative to Hinjo's junk; it is quite clearly off to port (the left side of the ship for you landlubbers). However, in the last panel where Kubota is rowing away, he's moving in the same direction the junk is facing - at right angles to the island.

(And why the heck would Kubota be rowing toward the island anyway?)

For Kubota to see the island behind Elan, therefore, his boat only needs to have turned about 60 degrees or so, which is easily explained. My guess is that Elan didn't land square in the stern of the rowboat; he landed off to the side, making the boat revolve somewhat.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I suspect Quar isn't there because V's zapped that little bugger into the next dimension for wasting his time on combat when he wants to be finding Haley.

I doubt it. We know he left the island, and apparently was meant to be on the ship with Kobuta. For V to have done away with him he would had to have returned to the island for some reason, and being so small been pretty unlucky to run into V, who's not the most together at the moment.

As to the whole chaotic good thing, alignment is certainly a "guide" for a character, but hardly an absolute step by step guide to how someone has to act in a given situation. Elan accepting Kubota's surrender is certainly in line with the good part of his alignment, doesn't necessarily conflict with the chaotic part, but most importantly fits in with his overall world view. And the punch fits in as well. Killing the surrendering Kubota would be almost as out of character for Elan as going all angsty.

Just looking at Nale is enough to see Elan isn't the kind of guy to off someone no matter how bad they are (though being brothers might play a part) after he's beaten them.

And it's the genre savvy thing to do. The hero has to accept a villain's surrender so that the villain has the chance to doom themselves when they try to attack the hero again when they drop their guard thinking the bad guy is giving up (not that I think Kobuta is silly enough to try something like that).:smallamused:

[chibibar]

Bah Elan shoulda killed him anyway, he deserved it. :smallmad: After all Hinjo can always raise him if he really wants him to stand trial.

We take resurrection for granted when it comes to gaming, but OotS has shown us that a person CAN refuse a rez (like Shojo) If Kabuto is really not going to make it out of this one, he might refuse the rez and stay in the afterlife until one of his minion rez him in a safer place.

[Name Lips]

Um...


Elan....



the boat is still sinking...

[[levi]]

That was probably the best punchline ever...

[Trixie]

In real life, the Geneva accords only take place once a prisoner is taken. There is no rule that you have to take prisoners.
Reasons may run from the inability to hold a prisoner, to plain bloody-mindedness. If I should ever catch someone who just killed a person who professes their attraction to me, hazarded their life for me, and threw their hands up when my weapon was at his throat- that will just be too bad for him.

Then you would be actually far worse than him.

[pjackson]

Good means you'll do what is for the betterment of all.
Chaotic means you'll achieve that goal by any means necessary.


That is wrong.
You can't use evil means regularly and remain good.

Elan killing Kubuto in anger after he surrendered then would have been as evil an act as Miko's killing of Shojo.
Neither was enough as a single act to cause an alignment change.
Elan punching Kuboto was also an evil act though a very minor one, since was done purely for Elan's satisfaction, but only a saint (or a paladin) could be expected not to do it.

Killing Kuboto for the greater good would not be an evil act, but Elan is not qualified to decide that and knows it.
Anyway the greater good would be for Kuboto to be tried so that the rest of the nobles can see that his execution is fully justified.

[Knaight]

For Kubota to see the island behind Elan, therefore, his boat only needs to have turned about 60 degrees or so, which is easily explained. My guess is that Elan didn't land square in the stern of the rowboat; he landed off to the side, making the boat revolve somewhat.

Take a closer look, Kubota himself turns around in the boat after Elan jumps in, seeing the island.

[Dausuul]

Take a closer look, Kubota himself turns around in the boat after Elan jumps in, seeing the island.

Right, but the boat would still have to have turned a bit.

Let's say Hinjo's junk is pointing north. The island, then, is off to the west. Kubota is on the rowboat, rowing north.

Elan makes his big leap and lands on the stern of the rowboat. Kubota turns around to face him; if the rowboat has maintained its position and Elan is square in the center, then Kubota is now facing south. The island is to the southwest - but more west than south, since it's highly unlikely that the distance Kubota has opened up between his rowboat and the ship is anywhere near as great as the distance between the ship and the island.

Therefore, either Elan must be off-center, or the rowboat must have revolved a bit, or more likely both, for Kubota to see the island past Elan - given that he sees the island to the left (from his perspective) of Elan. If Kubota were looking straight south, the island ought to be on the right. Of course, it could also be Kubota who ended up off-center.

Man, I put way too much thought into this.

[Lowkey]

So when I throw a stick in the water, it will sink?

Never played pooh-sticks, I take it...

PS *steel* boats float because they're full of air, otherwise it would be impossible to make a steel boat. Impossibility of a steel boat without this factor is not impossibility of making a wooden boat. Or polystyrene. Or Balsa. Heck, ICE floats, despite having very little air in it.
I'm seizing upon this post because it is the most recent, but the number of people stating such things astounds me. So welcome to your SUnday morning physics lesson.

The ability of an object to float or sink depends on its density. As Archimedes showed millennia ago, there is an upward force on an object immersed in a fluid due to the difference in pressure on the top and bottom of the object. Specifically "any body fully or partially submerged in a fluid is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced." Consider the following numberless abstract: Now the weight of an object is its mass multiplied by local gravitational attraction. Mass times acceleration is also force. So we have

Fs=Mo*Ge

Where Fs = Force sink, Mo = Mass object and Ge = gravity on earth. Now the Fb (buoyant force) is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced, and would again be

Fb=Mf*Ge

So for an object at equilibrium, Fs=Fb, or Mo*Ge=Mf*Ge, and we can cancel out Ge. Now mass is the product of volume and density. And as the object is submerged in the fluid the volume of fluid displaced will be equal to its volume. Thus we can substitute into the equation and get

po*Vo=pf*Vo

where po = density (written as a lower case rho) of the object, Vo = volume of the object, and pf = density of the fluid. Thus we get

po=pf
for an object at equilibrium. Should the density of the object be greater then that of the fluid, it will sink. If it is less, it will float.

On to your examples. Some wood will sink as well, and some rocks float. In the case of wooden ships they do float because of the air in them. Otherwise they would not be able to carry as much as they do. The mass not submerged (e.g. cargo, people, cannons, etc) would still be exerting a force on it due to gravity, and that force would cancel out some of the buoyant force. Ice floats because it is less dense (~9% less, depending on the water and ice used, the discussion of why is outside the scope of this post)

[Clamps]

Ok, time for some nitpicking. What I bugged me wasn't the way Kabuta was rowing his boat or how the boat didn't sink, but how Kabuta saw the island.
Now, I've taken the liberty of scribling all over the last two strips, just so I can make my point.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2003/example1ex1.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example1ex1.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php) http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8558/example2eb5.th.gif (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=example2eb5.gif)http://img257.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

As I've pointed out, it's really safe to asume that the boat is heading in the general direction of the island. This is further reinfroced by the fact that on the panel where Kabuta finally notices the huge stone'd (hehe) demon, there aren't any other ships visible. But by the way the boat was facing, he should have been able to spot this from panel one in the second strip, not after he turned around, since then he should be facing the ship he was escaping, not the island.

Of course, it might be just me missing something, but I'm pretty sure I'm right on this.

The island was to the side of the ship (Aft?), not in front of or behind it. There are 3 dimensions.

[hamishspence]

Remarks about a killing not being enough to cause an alignment change get the following response: Prove It.

The words "Windstriker will visit you as much as he is able" could apply to her going to Celestia, or to a slightly lower plane (Arcadia, Mechanus).

Saying that killing Shojo did not cause an alignment change out of LG needs to be supported by evidence, especially given that in War and XPs we are told she has been borderline all the way: too quick on the katana, too paranoid, etc.

Getting back to the subject: elan is unlikely to lose his bard powers (in fact, by rules, even change to Lawful wouldn't lose you powers, it would just stop you advancing. Check 3.5 book if you do not believe me)

Accepting a surrender is not specifically called out as a Lawful act, in the only D&D source which specifically defines acts that are always Lawful (Fiendish Codex 2)

So, I'd say, excess violence is only act that is specifically evil, and it is a tiny, tiny evil act. Not the sort of thing that gets a corruption rating. Accepting the surrender is exactly the sort of thing you find in Exalted Deeds as generically Good, not especially Lawful or Chaotic.

[Lowkey]

Right, but the boat would still have to have turned a bit.

Let's say Hinjo's junk is pointing north. The island, then, is off to the west. Kubota is on the rowboat, rowing north.

Elan makes his big leap and lands on the stern of the rowboat. Kubota turns around to face him; if the rowboat has maintained its position and Elan is square in the center, then Kubota is now facing south. The island is to the southwest - but more west than south, since it's highly unlikely that the distance Kubota has opened up between his rowboat and the ship is anywhere near as great as the distance between the ship and the island.

Therefore, either Elan must be off-center, or the rowboat must have revolved a bit, or more likely both, for Kubota to see the island past Elan - given that he sees the island to the left (from his perspective) of Elan. If Kubota were looking straight south, the island ought to be on the right. Of course, it could also be Kubota who ended up off-center.

Man, I put way too much thought into this.
Or there are differing drag coefficients to the boat's hull. For example, if one of the paddles stayed in the oarlock a little bit longer then the other. Elan still had some forward momentum when he hit that would have been transferred to the boat, and different levels of resistance to movement could have generated a spin.

But Occam's razor here would hold that the arrow analysis is false. We don't know what side of the ship the cabin is on (thus Elan could have had to run around the foscle first), we don't know that the prow of the ship is facing toward the island, and we don't know that Jenx's assumption that Kabuto turned the rowboat is valid - the last panel of 593 had Kabuto facing towards the junk (with his back towards the island via the arrows), yet 594 arrows have him facing the island.

Simply put, the artistic medium doesn't allow for the kind of analysis applied here. Too much can happen between panels.

[Sequinox]

I hate Kubota so much... :smallfurious:
Though I still love this comic.

[Bramble]

While all events surrounding Elan are open for interpretation, I would like to at least present this bit of data for people to read, regarding Chaotic Good. This is the definition that *I* was led to believe years ago.

http://wiki.avlis.org/Alignment#Chaotic_Good



As I said before, its all open to interpretation, since everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too (regardless of whether or not its a lie).

That description, particularly the last half sounds a lot more like Chaotic Neutral then Chaotic Good to me.

In my view I think a CG character would only be fully justified in killing an evil, unarmed villian who had just surrendered if they felt there was no way that villian could actually be brought to justice. If the justice system was so corrupt that the villian would almost certainly get off then I could see a CG person just killing the guy because he would have no faith in that particular system of laws. I don't think the Azurites are that far gone yet, certainly when they're being led by a Lawful Good Paladin. Elan would have every expectation that he could turn Kubota inand Hinjo would make sure Kubota would get his just desserts.

[Warren Dew]

Given that Kubota has shown himself willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish his goals, I would imagine his unwillingness to simply stage a coup openly is a matter of pragmatism.

I'm sure pragmatism plays into it. However, Kubota may be operating within certain unwritten traditions himself.

The nice thing about a society that's ruled by people like these infighting nobles is that the fighting is limited to a small number of deaths among the nobles and their immediate hirelings. The great majority of the population can go about their lives normally and ignore these things.

Start to use armies, and it turns into a civil war instead, with widespread bloodshed and loss of life. It's possible that both Kubota and Hinjo, as well as all the other nobles, would prefer to avoid that.


A square foot of 1 inch thick wood will only float 1.5 lbs (actually 4.5lbs, but that much wood weighs 3lbs.). So the comic isn't very accurate, the boat should be sinking fairly rapidly now.

While your analysis of bouyancy is correct, I don't think your analysis of the comic is. The boat seems to have close to 100 square feet of its surface area under water, and even if that wood is only one inch thick, there's a keel and ribs to account for.

Wooden boats rarely sink fully. They generally capsize instead, dumping their contents into the water to float or sink, or they break up.


...I guess it's only okay to kill defenceless, non-threatening targets if they have funny skin pigmentation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html).

Perhaps it just depends on how good one is. While Roy is willing to kill sleeping nonhumans, Miko later is not. I think this is just evidence that Elan is more good than Roy is.


(I doubt a Being of Pure Law and Good would be swayed by your average courtroom antic.)

Certainly the last one wasn't, since he had already agreed to miscarry justice ahead of time....


I didn't find Elan awesome, or anything like some others, though. I thought "he's acting out of anger", and that made him a bad person in my mind. He's not the happy careless childish character anymore, he's someone who'll act on bad instincts (like anger or hate).
Oh well, he guess Elan DOES act on instincts. He did when he escaped the prison, too. I liked it better then, though :P

Hey, I thought you were the one who liked the way the comic was becoming more serious!

Just kidding. I feel the same way you do, really, even though I was frequently annoyed by the old Elan.

[hamishspence]

it suggests that, under enough frustration, he cracks just a little. I'd be surprised if he didn't show a certain amount of anger towards a very smug murderer. Not killing him speaks much for Elan's self control: it goes some way, but isn't infinite.

[Dausuul]

Or there are differing drag coefficients to the boat's hull. For example, if one of the paddles stayed in the oarlock a little bit longer then the other. Elan still had some forward momentum when he hit that would have been transferred to the boat, and different levels of resistance to movement could have generated a spin.

But Occam's razor here would hold that the arrow analysis is false. We don't know what side of the ship the cabin is on (thus Elan could have had to run around the foscle first), we don't know that the prow of the ship is facing toward the island, and we don't know that Jenx's assumption that Kabuto turned the rowboat is valid - the last panel of 593 had Kabuto facing towards the junk (with his back towards the island via the arrows), yet 594 arrows have him facing the island.

Simply put, the artistic medium doesn't allow for the kind of analysis applied here. Too much can happen between panels.

Well, first off, we can disregard the "arrow analysis" entirely, because it's flat-out wrong. The panel which displays the location of the island shows quite clearly that the island is to the left (port side) of the junk, not ahead of it. There has never been anything that even hinted the island was in front of the junk. Kubota was never rowing toward it.

That said, I agree with you; I wasn't trying to demonstrate that the Giant screwed up. I was simply noting that there has been a change in the orientation of the boat, probably due to Elan landing off-center. Since most of the panels in 594 show only the rowboat, with no external reference points, it could very well be spinning slowly. This seems like the most likely explanation.

[Alias]

While all events surrounding Elan are open for interpretation, I would like to at least present this bit of data for people to read, regarding Chaotic Good. This is the definition that *I* was led to believe years ago.

http://wiki.avlis.org/Alignment#Chaotic_Good



As I said before, its all open to interpretation, since everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too (regardless of whether or not its a lie).

Years after I wrote that essay it's still the most frequently quoted D&D piece I've ever done :)

[hamishspence]

it does coincide fairly well with subsquently published, and previously published, material. Dragon Magazine's Diaboli play up the anarchist style of government, Races of the Wild plays up the individualism (under a weak monarch who tends to rule by consensus). And Exalted Deeds definition of Chaotic Good fits with tendency to overthrow Evil systems.

[Aerysil]

Just when I thought I couldn't hate him any worse...

An enemy that gets away is much better than an enemy you have to tolerate.

[CompassRosie]

I thought Elan acted like Elan, under extraordinary circumstances. I mean, he did like Therkla. Even though he didn't return her love, she was his friend -- and she was a literal hero to him for a while too. I cried for Therkla, but for Elan too. He has no choice but to grow up just a little now.

The punch was good. But I wish he had knocked Kubota's teeth down his throat! :smallfurious:

[hamishspence]

i don't: maybe because, in this situation, I find a tiny act of evil both more palatable than turning the other cheek, AND more palatable than a slightly bigger act (beating kubota to a pulp)

[Jenx]

I'm not saying anyone screwed up either. I'm just pointing out something in the comic, that I think doesn't look right. Ok, so maybe there is a way that he couldn't see the island before, but saw it after he turned around.

To be honest, the fact alone that this is so confusing is not a good thing.

[David Argall]

The panel which displays the location of the island shows quite clearly that the island is to the left (port side) of the junk, not ahead of it.

If we are to ignore the obvious and insist the artist was correct here, the best thing to do is say this statement is right [or maybe wrong twice. The bow is the low end of the junk.] The panel shows the island off to our girl's left, which may or may not be the port side of the ship. If we assume she simply turned around, all can be made consistent.
Our nobles exit the room and start to head to the bow of the ship while Kubota is getting off the stern. The Island is visible on the port side of the ship, presumably towards the bow.
The Katos return to their cabin and we get a view of Kubota getting away, and seem to be seeing the ship from the direction of the island. We see several ships on the startboard side of Hinjo's junk.
Elan and Katos exit cabin and head towards stern. Our lass is now facing in the opposite direction.
Elan confronts Kubota, who turns towards Hinjo's ship. He now need only glance to his left, or the boat drift a little to see island and statue.

[TehSheen]

That punch by Elan was just awesome!

[teratorn]

Remarks about a killing not being enough to cause an alignment change get the following response: Prove It.

It doesn't work like that. You are the one claiming change, then the onus of proof lies with you.

[Hithros]

*grumble grumble* Kubota is just....:smallfurious:
But it is entirely in character for him to "surrender" in that situation.....
Grrraaaarrrrr..........

[silvadel]

If the boat sinks it isnt elan's fault that kabuto is too weighted down in armor to swim.

[MReav]

I wonder if Elan is going to order Kubota to strip naked, and have a call back to the earlier strips with a line like "So... you're not invisible."

[SoC175]

Another good comic Mr. Burlew. While Black Lotus Extract was a good name to drop as far as poisons go (what with its astronomical price tag), I was personally hoping for Pit Fiend Venom (the only poison I've ever seen with instant death as a failure for the second save).
As has been discussed in other threads, a Con damage poison (especially one as dangerous as black lotus poison with its 4d6 Con damage) means instant death to most characters

[Starbuck_II]

As has been discussed in other threads, a Con damage poison (especially one as dangerous as black lotus poison with its 4d6 Con damage) means instant death to most characters

True that. Take enough (another reason not to dump Con in 3rd edition) and you die.

Anopther reason I loved the Wu Jen's Snake Darts spell.

[derfenrirwolv]

Alignments are not strait jackets. While they say alot about a person they don't tell the whole story. There's more than one way to be chaotic good. Elan is soft hearted. He cares. He doesn't like to hurt people or see things hurt, even people like Kubota. Elan can't kill Lord Kubota not because he's good but because he's ELAN.

Imagine a different adventurer, possibly a character you've played, in the same situation.

"Lawfull custody? You mean into the system you've worked your whole life to rig? The one populated by your cronies and stooges, that you can bribe, blackmail, and have your imp charm into letting you go on to continue your reign of evil? THATS what you want me to turn you over to? No Kubota, they can hang me if they wish but you meet true justice hear and now" (sound of spell and or weapon being used followed by kubota's "gurgle gurgle:)

This would show a (not completely unfounded) distrust of laws and a system that are, in this case, GETTING IN THE WAY of doing the right thing. Thats chaotic

It would also show a willingness to take personal risk for the greater good. It would be a GOOD act. Its just not the ONLY good act possible. Elan is choosing WHICH good act to follow based on his own personality, not his alignment

[recluso]

in 590 Elan said "We can't just let him walk away! He's the bad guy! He needs to go to jail".
Elan wanted Kubota to surrender so he can be sent to prison.

Elan says "He knows that he can prove that he suspects, and that's enough for me" in other words Elan really doesn't understand the legal system yet he trusts the system.

Elan's anger could be that his dramatic sense "Therkla needs to be avenged" is stronger than his justice sense and he regrets not being able to kill Kubota.
But the punch could also jsut be a - Elan fitting - reaction to kubota's audacity to say "whatever charges you wish to bring against me" -- as if he has no clue what those would be.

Is that pose the Devil is performing in, similar to an well known statue?

[MReav]

I don't know if anyone else asked this, but did Kubota get turned around in the boat or something?

[Chazzie]

I have my own little nitpick, which might be easily explained away since I am not very knowledgeable of boats. But in a rowboat like that, wouldn't Kubota be facing the other direction and pulling on the oars backward? As a landlubber, I don't know if that really matters, but that's how I've always seen it portrayed before...

[Dr. Cthulwho]

It would also show a willingness to take personal risk for the greater good. It would be a GOOD act. Its just not the ONLY good act possible. Elan is choosing WHICH good act to follow based on his own personality, not his alignment

Exactly. Chaotic goodness should be as varied as the people who inhabit the alignment. I'm sure there are chaotic good people whose personal outlook/code/morals/pragmatism/idealism will let them accept killing a villain even if surrender is an option, and they'll have their reasons. Just like there are chaotic good people whose personal outlook/code/morals/pragmatism/idealism will make them prefer to accept surrender, who'll also have their reasons.

Doesn't mean they are trying to be "lawful", or whatever, just following their own personal compass of what they feel is right/good in that situation.

And I'm reminded of the OoTS trial way back when the prosecution was calling witnesses, and Elan said Banjo wasn't going to compromise his integrity by lying for the Order because "He saw what he saw"...

[Almn]

How would Elan hurt Damio Kubota even if he was not talked down? His earlier attempts didn't help much

[Red XIV]

i don't: maybe because, in this situation, I find a tiny act of evil both more palatable than turning the other cheek, AND more palatable than a slightly bigger act (beating kubota to a pulp)
I don't see any "act of evil" here. You can have whatever standards of morality you want, but in D&D alignment terms there's nothing inherently evil about violence.


How would Elan hurt Damio Kubota even if he was not talked down? His earlier attempts didn't help much
Kubota is in a small boat. In the middle of the ocean. Loaded down with lots of heavy armor.

Do the math.

[maxon]

So .... where *is* Qarr?

[EvilElitest]

Stupid lawful good court systems.

actually thats just good in general, lawful neutral or chaotic, killing a prisoner is evil
from
EE

[Ramien]

How would Elan hurt Damio Kubota even if he was not talked down? His earlier attempts didn't help much

Grapple's a touch attack, which most AC boosters don't help with. :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

I beg to differ: killing someone who is a potential nuisance to the rest of the people, unnarmed or not, is perfectly acceptable for some chaotic good people. They are not bound by a code of honor (not all of them, or at least not strict) and thus for rhose people such a restriction can do more harm than good.

No its not, because the murder (and yes it is murder) of an unarmed person isn't wrong from a law standpoint, but from a good standpoint. As morals aren't objective in D&D, murder is always evil and taht will hurt Elan, who is still CG



Kubota is that kind of person, and the old wacky dude with the cat would most likely have him executed or put in prison, because the good of his people was more important than the ethics of the act itself.
1) If he hopes to keep his good aligniment, murder and tryanny are still evil
2) and execution and imprisonment are still possible, you just need a trial first
from
EE

[Crinos]

How would Elan hurt Damio Kubota even if he was not talked down? His earlier attempts didn't help much

Because even with his armor Elan is high enough that he would have hit Kubota eventually, its just that time was a factor due to Therkla being poisoned.

Now it was just Elan and Kubota on a row boat, nowhere to run or hide for Kubota, and odds state Elan would have hit him eventually.

[Tinox]

Ok, I'm aware that this is not exactly relevant to the current strip, and I didn't actually look back through the thread, so flame me if that's already been brought up.

I've been re-reading OOTS, and I've been thinking that Vaarsuvius' prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) might be happening pretty soon. Any thoughts on this?

[Werewindlefr]

Every CG character I have ever played would have played out differently:

Kubota: I surrender, I accept my lawful punishment.
CG character:Chaotic Good.
Kubota: Wha-?
CG: *stab
Kubota: Damn.*dies*

Not that Elan's action was inconsistent, in fact honoring Kubota's surrender is more consistent with his naive view of the world.
It is not a matter of punishment. Punishing a prisoner that has surrendered in this manner is indeed not really compatible with good. It's a matter of protecting people: Kubota has the upper hand here, and he's evil. He's scheming, and he hasn't surrendered in spirit, only in words which he uses treacherously. This is why klling him right now would be compatible with a chaotic good alignement.

[Kish]

Ok, I'm aware that this is not exactly relevant to the current strip, and I didn't actually look back through the thread, so flame me if that's already been brought up.

I've been re-reading OOTS, and I've been thinking that Vaarsuvius' prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) might be happening pretty soon. Any thoughts on this?
My primary thought is that ever since the Oracle made that prophecy, people have been expecting it to come true immediately. There's even a bonus strip in War and XPs where Roy explains to Elan, "Elan, you can't guess V's four words...putting aside for now the literally billions of combinations in Common alone, much less those in Elven or any other language Vaarsiuvius speaks, the words need to be spoken by V, not you. And they need to be spoken to someone specific, whose identity we don't have."

If it is at all possible to guess the four words in advance--if--it's practically a guarantee that someone on this forum will guess them. However, it's also practically a guarantee that that person will have guessed wrong dozens of times before that. Do you have any reason for thinking the prophecy will come true soon, as opposed to in a hundred strips from now or near the end of the next book?

[Tinox]

I don't have much, actually. It was mainly just a hunch. What brought it to mind when I got to the prophecy comic is another comment I read on the forums not that long ago... it was spoiler'd then, so here it is...

Well, it was a comment about how V looked like Xykon before his lich transformation. I guess I made a mental link about getting close to a big change.

[EvilElitest]

It is not a matter of punishment. Punishing a prisoner that has surrendered in this manner is indeed not really compatible with good. It's a matter of protecting people: Kubota has the upper hand here, and he's evil. He's scheming, and he hasn't surrendered in spirit, only in words which he uses treacherously. This is why klling him right now would be compatible with a chaotic good alignement.

wrong. Book of Exalted Deeds, murdering a prisoner, even if they could cause damage in the future is evil. ends do not justify the means in D&D, because good and evil are absolute forces. Nevermind the fact taht doing so is cowardly and hypocritical as well as a generally bad idea
from
EE

[Blue Ghost]

Well, now we know what poison Kubota used...

I would have expected Kubota to commit suicide or something when caught. Guess he's even more unscrupulously manipulative than I thought. I wonder if he'll get away.

[JT Jag]

If I were Elan, I'd use the rapier to poke a hole in the boat, and then swim back to the junk.

[EvilElitest]

If I were Elan, I'd use the rapier to poke a hole in the boat, and then swim back to the junk.

wait, but isn't that exactly the same sort of murder as stabing him directly
from
EE

[Arcadius798]

If I were Elan, I'd use the rapier to poke a hole in the boat, and then swim back to the junk.

screw that, i'd shove it up where it hurts! but it's a great comic


and elan, kill him, no one will miss him, belkar will love you for eternity, and free XP. IT. IS.WORTH:smallamused:

[Grushvak]

I'm getting quite fond of the new Elan. When I started reading, I never thought this character could grow on me, but today's comic makes me really like him. :elan:

Sorry if someone beat me to the pun, but I loved the punchline.

[David Argall]

wrong. Book of Exalted Deeds, murdering a prisoner, even if they could cause damage in the future is evil. ends do not justify the means in D&D, because good and evil are absolute forces. Nevermind the fact taht doing so is cowardly and hypocritical as well as a generally bad idea

Now ignoring that BED has a rather limited understanding of morals, it does not in fact say this [other than in the sense that "murder" is defined as unjustified killing, which makes most of the argument a tautology.]

Now BED talks about always accepting surrender, but it promptly turns around and says the DM is to make sure that surrender is genuine some of the time. That works out to saying the good PC accepts surrender because there is a chance it is genuine, which in turn means that where the PC is sure it is not, he is under no duty to accept it.
We can note here too that the good PC is expected to turn over the prisoner for legal punishment. But if the prisoner is to be punished by the government, it becomes morally acceptable for the PC to do the punishing, particularly if the PC is chaotic. [There can be pragmatic problems such as the PC not being sure what the punishment should be, or even if it is deserved at all, but the the guilty are to be punished the proper amount, whether or not by the proper agency.] It is only the lawful who thinks the trial is really necessary. The others deem it no more than a good idea.

The surrendering prisoner is no different from the unconscious one. Both are to be secured and not harmed without reason. But under the right circumstances, that treatment is entirely consistent with immediate execution. We define as any death as undesirable, which protects the prisoner. But we recognize there are times when death is not the worst result, and that too applies to the prisoner. There will be times when he should be killed.



If I were Elan, I'd use the rapier to poke a hole in the boat, and then swim back to the junk.
While this has a certain whimsy to it that might appeal to the chaotic, this, like punching Kubota, is too little and too much. If Kubota deserves killing, it gives him too much chance of escape. If he doesn't, it risks killing un undeserving target.



Elan killing Kubuto in anger after he surrendered then would have been as evil an act as Miko's killing of Shojo.
Not at all. The main difference is simply that Kubota is guilty and Shojo wasn't. And Elan has valid knowledge of that while Miko was just wildly guessing.


Killing Kuboto for the greater good would not be an evil act, but Elan is not qualified to decide that and knows it.
This is certain a major reason to be accepting surrenders instead of killing them, but Elan has some pretty good knowledge here.


Anyway the greater good would be for Kuboto to be tried so that the rest of the nobles can see that his execution is fully justified.
Now this assumes he will be convicted. He ought to be on the evidence we can see, but Kubota has that confidence, and he knows the system better than we do. He may look confident out of habit, but we can possibly end up with the rest of the nobles finding that Kubota can get away with murder.

I'd take him in myself, but there is no absolute here. Change a little and he should die.