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Jack_Simth
2008-09-20, 09:02 PM
Hey all,

I designed a DMM(Persistent Spell) Buff Bot Cloistered Cleric-15 for a short campaign (which is expected to be over), with the goal of him being an enabler - a buff bot, essentially.

I considered him to be a success - two 15th level characters took down a CR 17 Green dragon (given the DM's proclivities with other monsters, it likely either had class levels, or was advanced a little).

The ones I was using were Prayer (with DMM Persist), Blessing (regular persist, in a 7th level slot), and Mass Lesser Vigor (DMM persist). After the (probably final) battle, I picked up the ability to get another spell DMM persisted.

Qustion: What are the best party-level Cleric buffs to use Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) on, of 8th level or lower (and note, I can only do one 8th level spell until I hit next level, where I get two more)?

And yes, I know about the Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might combo - but I don't want to use DMM(Persist) with any personal combat buffs - they have to be things that will cover the entire party (voluntary challenge).

The other party member was a Fighter/Psychic Warrior/Elocuter that was a melee machine (routinely did 50 damage per hit, was routinely getting two or three hits per round against AC 30, in the case of the dragon - but then, that's when I was using Prayer, Bless, and Greater Magic Weapon to help him, so that his wealth could be spent on things like Flaming, Frost, and so on to add damage; I was likewise using Magic Vestments on his armor so he could have Heavy Fortification, rather than having it all go to enhancement - a modification that he thanked me for the first encounter after it was noted that the DM had dice that hated him).

Cainen
2008-09-20, 09:19 PM
Pair it with Chain Spell.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-20, 09:22 PM
Pair it with Chain Spell.
1) No available feats.
2) Chain Spell requires it be a ranged spell to begin with, which means it also needs Reach spell (or similar).
3) I would still need to know what spells to Chain.

Wolfpack
2008-09-20, 09:27 PM
If there are only two of you and you don't want to be a machine of destruction then you should just Persist a touch spell on the other party member instead of worrying about party wide ones.

There are a lot of goof touch range buffs.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-20, 09:31 PM
Delay Death cast on your ally, and then persisted would be a good one. Doesn't matter how much damage he takes, he won't die until the spell duration is up. Of course, death effects still can be a problem, but that's why you're a cleric, eh? Deathward and off you go.

Combine that with Diehard, or an equivilent Magic Item or Spell, and he can be beat around all day long, and you don't have to worry about him in the least.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-20, 09:51 PM
If there are only two of you and you don't want to be a machine of destruction then you should just Persist a touch spell on the other party member instead of worrying about party wide ones.

There are a lot of goof touch range buffs.
What? Air Walk, Death Ward, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, and Freedom of Movement? Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon are already applied - they've got an hour/level duration, so I don't much worry about them; they don't need Persisting. He's already got +Strength and +Constitution items; they wouldn't stack with Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance. As an Elocuter, he's already telling the law of gravity to sit down and shut up 24/7; he doesn't get much benefit from Air Walk. As an Elocuter, he's got extra actions he can use for things like short-range teleports (which he also has, as a psi-like ability no less), so grapples and most magical barriers aren't a concern, and Death Ward is extremely situational. Do you have any specific recommendations?

My current list is Blessing (standard persist, in a 7th level spell slot), Prayer (DMM persist), Mass Lesser Vigor (DMM Persist), and (now, not yet tested in-game, probably never will be unless we're short players again) Holy Aura (DMM Persist); I'm also using a Persistent Find Traps (DMM - mostly to free up the slot for Holy Aura, which a normal Persisted Find Traps previously filled) and Detect Magic (persisted Normally), but while those were necessary due to party makeup, they're not really the sort I want to be Persisting with this character - if I even get paired with a Rogue, the Find Traps is going away.

Delay Death cast on your ally, and then persisted would be a good one. Doesn't matter how much damage he takes, he won't die until the spell duration is up. Of course, death effects still can be a problem, but that's why you're a cleric, eh? Deathward and off you go.

Combine that with Diehard, or an equivilent Magic Item or Spell, and he can be beat around all day long, and you don't have to worry about him in the least.
Delay Death (at least, as listed in the Spell Compendium) is a Close range spell, not a "personal or fixed range" spell - it doesn't qualify for Persistent Spell. Besides - almost complete invulnerability? Kinda busted, even if it is for another character.

JeminiZero
2008-09-20, 10:28 PM
Qustion: What are the best party-level Cleric buffs to use Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) on, of 8th level or lower (and note, I can only do one 8th level spell until I hit next level, where I get two more)?


Well asides from those you named, here are a couple from Crystal Keep's cleric spell list:

Level 2:
Elation: Gives morale bonus to Str and Dex and therefore stacks with standard enhancement bonuses.

Leel 3:
Blindsight: See invisible and hidden (unless they have darkstalker)
Delay Death: Mentioned already.

Level 4:
Recitation: Essentially an upgraded version of prayer with +2/3 luck bonus to attacks/saving throws, and -2 of the same to enemies, no save but resistance applies.

Level 5:
Monstrous Regeneration: Gives you the troll regeneration ability that only fire and acid damage are lethal. Add on Fire and Acid immunity and essentially most damage becomes non-lethal (most except for hotter than normal fire attacks like hellfire and divine fire).

Level 6:
Stone Body: A lesser version of Iron Body in the SRD. A chunk of immunities at a hefty speed cost.
Vigorous Circle: Upgraded version of mass lesser vigor

Level 7:
Mass Spell Resistance: Of just use multiple castings of the normal spell resistance.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-20, 10:45 PM
Doesn't the Ocular Spell feat from Lords of Madness turn any spell into a ray with a fixed range?

LAZOR EYEBEEMZ OF INVINCIBILITY, GO!:smallsmile:

Actually, that'd work with any spell at all, now that I think of it...

Jack_Simth
2008-09-20, 11:04 PM
Well asides from those you named, here are a couple from Crystal Keep's cleric spell list:

Level 2:
Elation: Gives morale bonus to Str and Dex and therefore stacks with standard enhancement bonuses.

Leel 3:
Blindsight: See invisible and hidden (unless they have darkstalker)
Delay Death: Mentioned already.

Level 4:
Recitation: Essentially an upgraded version of prayer with +2/3 luck bonus to attacks/saving throws, and -2 of the same to enemies, no save but resistance applies.

Level 5:
Monstrous Regeneration: Gives you the troll regeneration ability that only fire and acid damage are lethal. Add on Fire and Acid immunity and essentially most damage becomes non-lethal (most except for hotter than normal fire attacks like hellfire and divine fire).

Level 6:
Stone Body: A lesser version of Iron Body in the SRD. A chunk of immunities at a hefty speed cost.
Vigorous Circle: Upgraded version of mass lesser vigor

Level 7:
Mass Spell Resistance: Of just use multiple castings of the normal spell resistance.

Let's see... mostly good - a few that don't work (Stone Body is Personal, which I don't want, while Delay Death and Mass Spell Resistance are Close, and hence ineligible for Persistent Spell - at least as listed in the Spell Compendium). Vigorous Circle can replace mass lesser vigor, no problem; Recitation can replace Prayer quite easily (everything overlaps anyway). Mwhahahaha....

Thanks.

Chronos
2008-09-21, 12:02 AM
Doesn't the Ocular Spell feat from Lords of Madness turn any spell into a ray with a fixed range? I like the way you think, but it doesn't quite work. With Ocular Spell, you actually cast the spell into your eyeball; it doesn't turn into a ray until you release it some time later. So it's not eligible for the metamagic at the time you cast it.

Wolfpack
2008-09-21, 12:58 AM
I like the way you think, but it doesn't quite work. With Ocular Spell, you actually cast the spell into your eyeball; it doesn't turn into a ray until you release it some time later. So it's not eligible for the metamagic at the time you cast it.

And wouldn't into your Eye be a fixed range if touch and personal are both fixed range?

Why yes it would.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-21, 01:20 PM
And wouldn't into your Eye be a fixed range if touch and personal are both fixed range?

Why yes it would.
Yes, but then it becomes a spell who's effects are discharged, which makes it ineligible for Persistent Spell. Reach spell doesn't have that issue... but then, there's not really any free feats in the build anyway, so it doesn't much matter.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 03:50 PM
DMM Chain is very good for things like Greater Magic Weapon and Mind Blank (which can be obtained via domain). Can also be very handy to Chain Heal.

Here's a fun part about Reach Spell, or the Heirophant Divine Reach ability: The Persist MM feat specifies that a spell either has to be a)personal, b) emenation based on caster, or c) fixed range. With the above ways, duration is fixed at 30', and so persistable.

Freedom of Movement is very good for persisting, if you can Reach it, since it's not personal. Basically, it's a free Ring of Freedom of Movement that doesn't take up a Ring slot. There's about 40k you don't have to spend.

Magic Vestments are another good one you can Reach/chain. Being hours/level, you don't need to persist it.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-21, 04:27 PM
DMM Chain is very good for things like Greater Magic Weapon and Mind Blank (which can be obtained via domain). Can also be very handy to Chain Heal.

Here's a fun part about Reach Spell, or the Heirophant Divine Reach ability: The Persist MM feat specifies that a spell either has to be a)personal, b) emenation based on caster, or c) fixed range. With the above ways, duration is fixed at 30', and so persistable.

Freedom of Movement is very good for persisting, if you can Reach it, since it's not personal. Basically, it's a free Ring of Freedom of Movement that doesn't take up a Ring slot. There's about 40k you don't have to spend.

Magic Vestments are another good one you can Reach/chain. Being hours/level, you don't need to persist it.
Oh yes, they're very handy spells to do so with; however, it requires an additional two or three feats that I don't have handy to pull off. Also, at this level, everyone can teleport a time or two a day (and if they can't, they're in trouble), so most things you'll want Freedom of Movement for don't come up very often.

Likewise, at this point, Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon are low enough level spells that they can be spammed anyway.

As for Mind Blank, getting it as a Cleric pretty much locks you into one of a handful of domains ... which have already been chosen in this case ... and much of the stuff you'll really want from Mind Blank is available from Holy Aura (or one of it's other-alignment equivalents).

namo
2008-09-21, 04:34 PM
Recitation (SC)
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SC)

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 05:17 PM
Freedom of Movement is for a whole HOST of things other than what can be evaded by a Teleport spell.

It renders you immune to grappling (and even a psi-like ability has to follow all the normal rules for spellcasting, including being interrupted and concentration checks), it renders you immune to things like Solid Fog, which is a No Save Just Suck (and you can't always teleport out of it, depending on how terrain plays out), it also renders you immune to things like Slow, which can be crippling to your Elocater buddy. You also can't teleport out of a Hold Person spell, or other paralytic effects (such as a ghoul's or ghast's touch or a gelatanous cube).

It is a very handy buff, but you cannot persist it without Reaching it because it has a range of Touch.

monty
2008-09-21, 05:32 PM
It is a very handy buff, but you cannot persist it without Reaching it because it has a range of Touch.

Isn't Touch a fixed range (that is, whatever your reach is)?

Jack_Simth
2008-09-21, 05:56 PM
Isn't Touch a fixed range (that is, whatever your reach is)?
Depends on interpretation. Close, Medium, and Long ranges are fixed for any given caster level. Touch range is fixed for any given body size and configuration. Caster level, body size, and body configuration can all be changed in D&D by a variety of effects (Leveling Up, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma, Incense of Meditation, Reduce Person, Enlarge Person, Polymorph, Shapechange, et cetera). Touch spells may or may not qualify, depending on the DM.

Mostly, though, I'm avoiding touch-range spells for the simple reason that I want any buff with DMM(persist) to be at the party-level; stuff that affects everyone anyway. Single-target effects aren't what I'm after, and most touch-range spells are single-target.


Freedom of Movement is for a whole HOST of things other than what can be evaded by a Teleport spell.

It renders you immune to grappling (and even a psi-like ability has to follow all the normal rules for spellcasting, including being interrupted and concentration checks), it renders you immune to things like Solid Fog, which is a No Save Just Suck (and you can't always teleport out of it, depending on how terrain plays out), it also renders you immune to things like Slow, which can be crippling to your Elocater buddy. You also can't teleport out of a Hold Person spell, or other paralytic effects (such as a ghoul's or ghast's touch or a gelatanous cube).

It is a very handy buff, but you cannot persist it without Reaching it because it has a range of Touch.
Eh, my Elocater buddy's got good saves to begin with - and part of what I'm doing is making them better. In his, specific case, Teleportation is Psionic - which means it's just thinking - and he's got a good concentration check. Psionic characters have less to worry about from grappling or paralysis than others, for the simple reason that their powers aren't affected by little things like being unable to speak, move their hands, or fetch things on their person. He'd need to be unconscious, or in a teleport-blocked area to be unable to teleport - mere paralysis or grappling isn't going to do it; you'll need Readied Actions to disrupt him - not that that would stop him, as the Elocater gets a Su teleportation ability one/day. Teleport-blocked areas are basically the only way to be sure he's not getting away.

However, it's not a party-wide buff without investing in two or three more feats, so that's tangental - I'm looking for good Party buffs, not individual ones.

Wolfpack
2008-09-21, 06:16 PM
Mostly, though, I'm avoiding touch-range spells for the simple reason that I want any buff with DMM(persist) to be at the party-level; stuff that affects everyone anyway. Single-target effects aren't what I'm after, and most touch-range spells are single-target.

However, it's not a party-wide buff without investing in two or three more feats, so that's tangental - I'm looking for good Party buffs, not individual ones.

WHY? You have said yourself that you want to be a buffbot. You have said yourself that it is just you and your Elocator buddy.

You would seriously be better off just casting a persisted buffs on him and then invisibility on yourself to follow him around.

Why is affecting the "whole party" of two people, one of whom doesn't even make attack rolls/saves/damage rolls so important?

Just cast buffs on him.

Keld Denar
2008-09-21, 06:43 PM
You don't happen to have the courage domain, do you? Because Valiant Fury(SC) is pretty amazing. +4 MORAL bonus to str and con, which is just plain ol baddass. Unfortunately, it only appears on the Courage domain list, its not on any other list at all.

Also, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful(SC) is like a bard song + haste for clerics. It doesn't give the movement that haste does, but it does give the extra attack in a full attack, which is just plain awesome.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-21, 07:08 PM
WHY? You have said yourself that you want to be a buffbot. You have said yourself that it is just you and your Elocator buddy.

You would seriously be better off just casting a persisted buffs on him and then invisibility on yourself to follow him around.

Why is affecting the "whole party" of two people, one of whom doesn't even make attack rolls/saves/damage rolls so important?

Just cast buffs on him.
Couple of reasons.
1) Character concept; most of this is part of normal morning services. He's a cleric who preaches - and when he's in an inhabited area, and he's got excess capacity (which he usually does, with so many of the area-effect spells being "all allies" in range), he slaps it on them, too - whoever attends services. Wherever he goes, he encourages worship of Fharlahagn (at least for the day), and generally leaves stone huts/bridges with Fharlahagn's Symbol (Wall of Stone + Stone Shape) to aid travelers wherever he goes. A Cleric of a god of travel... improving conditions for travel, leaving his god's mark everywhere, and giving something concrete to worshippers who follow.
2) Invisibility is very far from foolproof - Blindsense, Blindsight, area effect spells, True Seeing, and See Invisibility aren't all that uncommon. He needs to have decent saves and AC himself, too, as he will get attacked/zapped.
3) I may re-use the concept in larger parties at different points. Being able to get everyone could be important.
4) I do make attack rolls and cast spells - even if they're not the most effective as I'm not playing Codzilla.


You don't happen to have the courage domain, do you? Because Valiant Fury(SC) is pretty amazing. +4 MORAL bonus to str and con, which is just plain ol baddass. Unfortunately, it only appears on the Courage domain list, its not on any other list at all.

Nope - luck and travel.


Also, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful(SC) is like a bard song + haste for clerics. It doesn't give the movement that haste does, but it does give the extra attack in a full attack, which is just plain awesome.
You're about the third person to mention it, yes. Extra attack, +3 Morale bonus to attacks and damage, yes. A bit much on the war-flavoring, though. It's good, but it's not quite good enough to displace Recitation (Attack, AC, and saves), Holy Aura (AC, saves, SR, and a retributive effect), or one of the party-level Vigor line (neigh-infinite healing out of combat). When there's a proper Rogue in the party, it'll probably make the list. Until then, not so much.

Chronos
2008-09-21, 08:04 PM
...and generally leaves stone huts/bridges with Fharlahagn's Symbol (Wall of Stone + Stone Shape) to aid travelers wherever he goes.OK, that is just plain cool.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-21, 08:18 PM
OK, that is just plain cool.
Yeah. You just need to make sure to harvest tiles out of the side of the last one with the stone shape - as Wall of Stone requires some existing stone to build on. Lay out a pattern of stone tiles to support the Wall of Stone, cast Wall of Stone to make the Hut/Bridge, then use Stone Shape to carve Fharlahagn's Symbol on the side.... and use the removed rock to create the tiles to seed the next one at the same time.

It's something a Cleric of a god of travel would do (at 9th+, anyway), and the party still gets benefit from it (the stream/river/gorge/whatever is crossed with the entire party, or they're fairly safely walled in for the night with a manufactured choke-point in case of a nighttime invasion). It's something that most people would appreciate (most people like it when someone else makes their life easier - bridges and shelters are useful for basically everyone). It's also a way to role-play the "preacher" aspect of a Cleric without preaching at anyone and without applying pressure to others in the party to "convert".

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-21, 09:13 PM
If you were to re-write for a different campaign (not suggesting for immediate use), may I humbly suggest that DMM Chain would be of better use to a buff-bot enabler than DMM Persist?

Let's face it, after about 10th level, most of the hours/level spells are pretty much going to be all day, and you retire when they wear out. There's really no need to persist them, and there really aren't a whole lot of useful buffs that really need persisting if he's already got gear with enhancement bonuses to stats.

Oh, you want a spell to persist on your buddy? Shield of Faith. Deflection bonus to AC doesn't come often or cheaply. Increase his AC. Death Ward is also worthy of Persisting on an ally, if you can manage to persist a touch spell (also, reach/chaining it is also of great value in combat against undead-ish things). Immunity to negative energy effects, which keeps batman-type wizards from hitting you with an Enervation nerf-bat, and protects party from Save or Die effects.

other spells of note:
Hero's Feast is a good multi-target cleric spell that doesn't need persisting
Haste, if you can find a way to gain access to it, is also a very good multi-target spell
Mind Blank is another extremly valuable spell worthy of Chaining (no need to Reach it) but you will need some domain-shuffling to get it

Jack_Simth
2008-09-22, 07:21 AM
If you were to re-write for a different campaign (not suggesting for immediate use), may I humbly suggest that DMM Chain would be of better use to a buff-bot enabler than DMM Persist?

Let's face it, after about 10th level, most of the hours/level spells are pretty much going to be all day, and you retire when they wear out. There's really no need to persist them, and there really aren't a whole lot of useful buffs that really need persisting if he's already got gear with enhancement bonuses to stats.

For the hours/level buffs, sure. But consider that same Cleric-10 with Persist instead of Chain.

Compare, oh, a Persistent Recitation to a Chained Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon.

Recitation gives +2 (+3, if the deity aligns) Luck (not a very common a bonus type) to AC, Attack Rolls, and Saves for the cost of one 4th level spell slot, three feats, and seven turning attempts.

Chained Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon at 10th give +2 Enhancement (about the most common bonus type) to AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls for the cost of two spell slots (3rd and 4th), three feats (Chain spell requires another metamagic feat), and eight turning attempts.

It's the same feat cost, almost the same turning cost, and a mostly comparable effect. Now granted, Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon scale a bit better than does Recitation - but ignoring caster level boosters for a moment, a Persisted Recitation is mostly going to do better than a Chained Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon - unless the party meleeists are going the Sword & Board route (in which case the AC counts twice - assuming they don't have enchanted weapons and armor by then, in which case, the Enhancement bonus scarcely counts at all).

Add to that the little nifty that a DMM(Persist) cleric can still cast Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon (and any of the other hour/level buffs) normally, and that most of the hour/level buffs are 4th and below, can you start to see why I'm focusing on Persist for the higher-level campaigns?



Oh, you want a spell to persist on your buddy? Shield of Faith. Deflection bonus to AC doesn't come often or cheaply. Increase his AC. Death Ward is also worthy of Persisting on an ally, if you can manage to persist a touch spell (also, reach/chaining it is also of great value in combat against undead-ish things). Immunity to negative energy effects, which keeps batman-type wizards from hitting you with an Enervation nerf-bat, and protects party from Save or Die effects.

Getting party-level Deflection from Holy Aura (8th, rather than 1st, granted, but it's also got some retributive effects, and stops mental control).

Death Ward is situational - it's pretty much utterly useless against the dragon that's only casting as a Sorcerer-7, but against the Sorcerer-14 that spams Enervation and Finger of Death, it's a lifesaver ... until the Sorcerer realizes what's up, and switches to Flesh to Stone. Death Ward is a somewhat specific counter - it's good to know about if it's known that the party is going up against a necromancer, or a lot of energy-draining undead, but as a personal preference, I'm looking for stuff that's a bit more generically useful - saves, attacks, AC, and healing (I so like a Persisted Vigorous Circle...) will often to get a bit more mileage than specific immunities.



other spells of note:
Hero's Feast is a good multi-target cleric spell that doesn't need persisting
Got it - extended, even. Standard operating procedure, as as soon as you get it, it covers the entire party, gives some small bonuses (+1 Morale to Attack and Will saves), and a few immunities (Poison, Fear), and effectively immunity to diseases (except for the Contagion spell, basically all diseases have an incubation period - so Heroes' Feast cures them before they have a mechanical effect).


Haste, if you can find a way to gain access to it, is also a very good multi-target spell

Yes it is, although as you mentioned, it's a little tricky to get. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, though, is a standard Cleric spell, and is fairly close (it lacks the AC, save, and Speed boosts, but it's got a higher attack and damage boost, and gives the extra attack).


Mind Blank is another extremly valuable spell worthy of Chaining (no need to Reach it) but you will need some domain-shuffling to get it
That it is. Hmm... perhaps a Metamagic rod from the Magic Item Compendium...

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 10:55 AM
I'm actually surprised no one mentioned Conviction(SC) and Mass Conviction. Especially if you can bump your CL (Divine Spell Power is great for this), you can give your whole party a +5 Resistance bonus to saves fairly early. Thats very decent.

I was gonna say Mass Shield of Faith as well, but you got deflection covered by Holy Aura.

It should be noted that you CAN chain GMW, since its close range, but you CAN'T chain Magic Vestaments, since its range touch. You'd have to first reach it, before you can chain it, and thats a questionable ruling whether or not its even possible (several DMs I know don't allow it, because MM should only check the base version of the spell, not the modified version, similar to the way Empower and Maximize stack).

It might also be worth noting that you can have BOTH Recitation (Luck) and Righteous Wrath (Moral) running. My buffer cleric doesn't use DMM, but he's got the purification domain that gives Recitation as a 3rd level spell, and casts Recitation quickened with a Lesser MM Rod followed up with a Righteous Wrath. +6/5 to hit and +3 dmg in one action is a pretty good way to start an encounter.

Also, 1 level dip in Contemplative could net you the Courage domain. Its not normally one of Fharlangen's domains, but courage in the face of a long dangerous road ahead wouldn't be out of character for the Lord of Roads.

Wolfpack
2008-09-22, 04:42 PM
I'm pretty sure no one mentioned Conviction because Superior Resistance exists and is way better.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-22, 05:14 PM
I'm actually surprised no one mentioned Conviction(SC) and Mass Conviction. Especially if you can bump your CL (Divine Spell Power is great for this), you can give your whole party a +5 Resistance bonus to saves fairly early. Thats very decent.

Conviction is Touch, and for this build, I'm avoiding single-target buffs (and they may or may not be Persistable); Mass Conviction has a variable range, and is thus not subject to Persisting.

However, it does have a 10 minute/level duration. Extended, that lasts a long time (Extended, at caster level 20, is 400 minutes - six and a half hours. Prep two castings, and that's a 13-hour adventuring day covered). Hmm....


I was gonna say Mass Shield of Faith as well, but you got deflection covered by Holy Aura.

That, and Mass Shield of Faith is a Close range spell, not personal or fixed - it's not subject to Persisting.


It should be noted that you CAN chain GMW, since its close range, but you CAN'T chain Magic Vestaments, since its range touch. You'd have to first reach it, before you can chain it, and thats a questionable ruling whether or not its even possible (several DMs I know don't allow it, because MM should only check the base version of the spell, not the modified version, similar to the way Empower and Maximize stack).

True - pity.


It might also be worth noting that you can have BOTH Recitation (Luck) and Righteous Wrath (Moral) running. My buffer cleric doesn't use DMM, but he's got the purification domain that gives Recitation as a 3rd level spell, and casts Recitation quickened with a Lesser MM Rod followed up with a Righteous Wrath. +6/5 to hit and +3 dmg in one action is a pretty good way to start an encounter.

Yeah. Righteous Wrath is +3 Attack/Damage (morale), plus an extra attack; Recitation is +2/3 Attack, AC, saves (luck); Holy Aura is +4 Deflection to AC, halts the more annoying forms of mind control cold, +4 Resistance to saves (although that will generally overlap with a Cloak or Vest of Resistance), and a retributive effect; tack on Mass Conviction for a nice Morale boost to saves, and a nice, long-running Mass Lesser Vigor to deal with when attacks do get through... and yeah, the whole party can go all day (except for the poor Wizard who neglects to take a direct-damage reserve feat, or a lot of wands...).

When everyone in the party is running at +5/6 to attack, +3 Damage, +6/7 AC, and +6/7 saves, plus Fast Healing, before you start flinging around Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon...

Yeah, there's some stacking there. It's the nice way to boost a Fighter - with a little DM collusion for a greater than normal encounters per day, it'd be pretty sweet (but would devalue the Wizard a bit).


Also, 1 level dip in Contemplative could net you the Courage domain. Its not normally one of Fharlangen's domains, but courage in the face of a long dangerous road ahead wouldn't be out of character for the Lord of Roads.
Yeah, but that costs a feat, which is a bit precious (unless I can abuse nightsticks....).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-09-22, 09:33 PM
You seem to be laboring under the misconception that Holy Aura makes you immune to mind-affecting. What it actually does is suppress the effect for the duration of the buff. It's still in effect, it just makes it not work until the buff wears off. So, once the buff wears off, your buddy might get a wild hair up his butt and slaughter you. This is of particular issue when dealing with things like Dominate Monster which can likely outlast your Holy Aura.

Chronos
2008-09-22, 10:21 PM
I think the hope there is that the caster of the Dominate Monster doesn't outlast the Holy Aura effect. Suppressing it for the duration of combat is usually good enough.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-23, 05:53 AM
You seem to be laboring under the misconception that Holy Aura makes you immune to mind-affecting. What it actually does is suppress the effect for the duration of the buff. It's still in effect, it just makes it not work until the buff wears off. So, once the buff wears off, your buddy might get a wild hair up his butt and slaughter you. This is of particular issue when dealing with things like Dominate Monster which can likely outlast your Holy Aura.
Persisted so it lasts a full 24 hours, repeated every day.

As a Cloistered Cleric, I've got skill points to burn, and so invest in Spellcraft, giving me a pretty good idea of what spells were cast. As a Cloistered Cleric, I've got a pretty decent Wisdom score, giving me a pretty good idea if someone's affected by a Domination Enchantment - even with no actual ranks in Sense Motive (it's a Sense Motive DC of 15, and Sense Motive is a Wis-based skill).

Holy Aura suppresses the more annoying effects of mind control - that is, the ones that make my companions want me dead.

Sure, the Dominate spell has a duration longer than the Persisted Holy Aura - Dominate Person lasts a day/level, a Persisted Holy Aura lasts 24 hours - unless, you know, I do something about it the next day, after preparing spells, but a little before I'd normally be casting the Holy Aura that's suppressing the Dominate. Or, you know, I do something about the caster of the Dominate, so he's unable to issue orders once my buddy is no longer protected from getting orders issued to him.

Plus I'm stacking bonuses on my companions so that they'll end up with rather decent saves. A Fighter-15, with Holy Aura, Recitation, Mass Conviction, and Mass Lesser Vigor running has +4 Resistance to saves, +2 or +3 Luck to saves, and (assuming caster level 15), +4 Morale to saves. With no feats or items to boost it, and a Wis score of 10, that Fighter-15 has a Will save of +15 or +16. If the DM is using "standard" baddies, at that level, the Wizard-17 opponent that casts Dominate Monster will have a base Int of 19, and a +6 Headband, for a save DC for a 9th level spell of 24 (26, if he has both Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)). About a 50/50 chance, targeting what's likely to be the Fighter's weakest save, and only affects a single character. The Wizard-20 (which I shouldn't be fighting at 15th) has a single higher point of Int, putting the DC to 25/27 depending on feats. If my Fighter companion also happens to be a dwarf with Iron Will, that Wiz-15 or 20 has a very low chance of successfully Dominating him without first getting rid of the buff spells (which is possible).

As I'm limiting my cheese to party-level buffs, I'm not an overly annoying character - I'm not stealing spotlight time from anybody. A little cahoots with the DM for some time-pressure and a large number of encounters-per-day, and the Fighter-15 is a very reasonable character if he's partying with me - he doesn't have to worry about running out of hit points except in the middle of a single battle due to Fast Healing; he doesn't have to worry about running out of attacks due to his nature; he barely has to worry about missing due to stacking bonuses that give him a very nice to-hit, and he barely has to worry about getting hit due to stacking bonuses that are a little hard to come by otherwise in those amounts. If I've been with the Fighter for a while, I've probably also been talking to him about how to optimize his equipment running under the assumption that I (or a similarly-built character) will be around to buff him.