[3e ToB] Is a true Master of Nine possible?

[Chronos]

Is it possible (without epic levels, gestalt, or the like, of course) to build a true Master of Nine? That is to say, a martial adept who knows the ninth-level maneuver from each discipline. Superficially, it seems like it ought to be: A swordsage 15/Mo9 5 could pick up a total of 6 level 9 maneuvers at character levels 17, 18, 19, and 20, trade in two lower-level maneuvers for two more at levels 18 and 20, and pick up the last one via the Martial Study feat at 18. The catch, though, is that all of the ninth-level maneuvers have fairly high prerequisites, of four, five, or more maneuvers from the same school, and I don't think there's any way to pick those up in time. But I'm sure that someone else has thought of this question before me, and come up with a definitive answer. Is there any way to do it?

[Douglas]

I think it's been done on the WotC CharOp forum, but required getting some of the prereqs from items.

[Vizen]

From my quickly done workings, you need 43 maneuvers (level 9's included) to be able to get them all....As far as I see, even with feats spent on Martial Study, you cant get them. Not sure how gaining prerequisites from items works though, so might want to look into that, you would need them.

[Gralamin]

Well going through the prerequisites for each...
Inferno Blast requires 5 Desert Wind Maneuvers
Strike of Righteous Vitality requires 3 Devoted Spirit Maneuvers
Time Stands Still requires 4 Diamond Mind Maneuvers
Strike of Perfect Clarity requires 4 Iron Heart Maneuvers
Tornado Throw requires 5 Setting Sun Maneuvers
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike requires 5 Shadow Hand Maneuvers
Mountain Tombstone Strike requires no Maneuvers (assuming it has not been errata'd)
Feral Death Blow requires 4 Tiger Claw Maneuvers
War Master's Charge Requires 4 White Raven Maneuvers

So In order to get all 9 of the level 9 maneuvers, it requires 5*3+3+4*4 = 34 maneuvers are prerequisites, and 9 more for a total of 43 maneuvers.

Swordsage 13 gives 18 maneuvers, Martial Study for 3, Master of the Nine gives 8. One Level of Crusader gives 5. 1 Level of Warblade gives 3. 18+6+8+5 = 37. Add in Crown of White Ravens, Desert Wind Cloak, Devoted spirit Amulet etc. for the other prereqs.

Build would be more or less:
Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 13 (IL 14 for Swordsage)/Master of the Nine 5 (IL 19 for Swordsage). You can get enough powers, but you probably would not have enough levels to fit in all 9.

It may be possible to abuse the rules for Martial scripts, assuming you know you will level in an hour. Since you would possess the maneuver for one hour, and prerequisites are only counted for when you are taking the maneuver.

[Eldariel]

Item prereqs, bloodlines or PrC abuse (all PrCs add full level to ALL your Initiator classes) are the things done thus far. Since MoTN is pretty much a necessity, but requires so many feats, Martial Stance-spam doesn't really work either (especially since you need the prereq one maneuver to take Martial Stance in the first place, so you can only master on school through those). Just plain Swordsage 15/MoTN 5 will, even at best, only get 2-1-2-1 for 6 level 9s and Martial Study for 7th. It also falls short on the prerequisites. But yea, check the Char Ops for "Reshar" - you should find the attempts.

[TeeEl]

Swordsage 13 gives 18 maneuvers, Martial Study for 3, Master of the Nine gives 8. One Level of Crusader gives 5. 1 Level of Warblade gives 3. 18+6+8+5 = 37.

Stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, and you get 8. So that's 45, enough to fill out the necessary prereqs without items.

[Chronos]

So that's 45, enough to fill out the necessary prereqs without items.Enough in number, but not in type. Your Swordsage levels can't give you Devoted Spirit, White Raven, or Iron Heart, so you'd have to get those all with feats or with Mo9 levels.


But yea, check the Char Ops for "Reshar" - you should find the attempts.Indeed (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-897344). It looks like it's doable with a loose interpretation of "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to determine your initiator level"... But then again, you could also interpret that statement to mean that Archmage levels count for full IL, too, since it doesn't even specify that it means the PrCs from that book.

But I think it's safe to say that you can't do it without at least one shady rules interpretation, since if it were possible, the CharOp boards would have done it.

[Gralamin]

Stances count as maneuvers for the purpose of meeting prerequisites, and you get 8. So that's 45, enough to fill out the necessary prereqs without items.

Oh really? I didn't know that. Checking the description on page 43 you are correct though.

Feat wise, you'll have to be Human, and spend your feats as so:
(H): Improved Unarmed Strike
(1): Adaptive Style
(3): Desert Wind Dodge/dodge
(6): Blind-Fight
(9): Improved Initative
(12): Free Slot
(15): Free Slot
(18): Martial Study

Lets start mapping this out.
Crusader: 5 and a stance, Spend as much on Devoted Spirit and White Raven as possible. (Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Stone Bones [can't use on something needed], Martial Spirit)
0 Devoted Spirit required now.
2 WR needed

Warblade: 3 and a stance. Spend on Iron Heart and White Raven [Steel Wind, Steely Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Punishing Stance]
2 WR needed
1 IH needed
3 DM needed

(I have not checked if I've met the prereqs of everything)
Swordsage 1: 6 and a stance: Shadow Blade Technique, Mighty Throw, Wolf Fang Strike, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Burning Blade, Blistering Flourish, Child of Shadow
Swordsage 2: Action before Thought, Step of the Wind
Swordsage 3: Shadow Jaunt
Swordsage 4: Retrain something, Flesh Ripper
Swordsage 5: Mind over Body, Holocaust Cloak
Swordsage 6: Retrain Something, Comet Throw
Swordsage 7: Firesnake
Swordsage 8: Retrain something, Shadow Stride
Swordsage 9: Shifting Defense, Pouncing Charge
Swordsage 10: Retrain something, Ring of Fire
Swordsage 11: Scorpion Parry
Swordsage 12: Retrain Something, Shadow Blink
Swordsage 13: Swooping Dragon Strike
2 WR Needed
1 IH Needed

MoT9 1: White Raven Hammer, White Raven Tactics
MoT9 2: Iron Heart Surge, Level 8 Stance
MoT9 3: Inferno Blast, Tornado Throw
MoT9 4: Stance, Strike of Righteous Vitality
MoT9 5: Strike of Perfect Clarity, War Master's Charge
Martial Study for Time Stands Still
Still need: Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Mountain Tombstone Strike, and Feral Death Blow.

[Diamondeye]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but when swapping out, you can swap a maneuver that's acting as a prerequisite as well.

For example, if you have 2 Desert Wind maneuvers and want to swap a maneuver out and gain a new desert wind maneuver with a prerequisite of 2 desert wind maneuvers, you can swap one of the ones you already have to get the new one.

This makes it a little easier to get the 9 level 9s, since at 18 and 20 you can swap out a prerequisite maneuver for the one you are acquiring.

[Eldariel]

Unfortunately this doesn't come into play since PrCs don't allow swapping and only MoTN gets multiple maneuvers per level after the first level.

[fractic]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but when swapping out, you can swap a maneuver that's acting as a prerequisite as well.

For example, if you have 2 Desert Wind maneuvers and want to swap a maneuver out and gain a new desert wind maneuver with a prerequisite of 2 desert wind maneuvers, you can swap one of the ones you already have to get the new one.

You can swap out maneuvers that are prerequisites but not like that! You could have 2 powers each needing the other. That way they are prerequisites of each other, but you cannot have a power be a prerequisite of itself which is what you are suggesting. If you only have 2 maneuvers of a discipline they can only have a prerequisite of at most 1 other maneuver.

[Reinboom]

Perhaps if you involved a different cheap trick, like exalted chaos shuffling (embrace and shun the dark chaos vow of poverty's free feats)?

Grab 8 extra feats total by level 14 (about when you would want to shuffle them), which could all be martial stance feats to cover prereqs?

[AstralFire]

You can swap out maneuvers that are prerequisites but not like that! You could have 2 powers each needing the other. That way they are prerequisites of each other, but you cannot have a power be a prerequisite of itself which is what you are suggesting. If you only have 2 maneuvers of a discipline they can only have a prerequisite of at most 1 other maneuver.

Actually, the way he read it is the common RAW interpretation of it among ToB optimizers. It's not RAI, but ToB's a lot harder to outright break so I've never really minded. A very casual optimizer would probably never find a loophole in it.


Perhaps if you involved a different cheap trick, like exalted chaos shuffling (embrace and shun the dark chaos vow of poverty's free feats)?

Grab 8 extra feats total by level 14 (about when you would want to shuffle them), which could all be martial stance feats to cover prereqs?

Only 3 Martial Stance and 3 Martial Study feats per character. I don't think the Chaos Shuffle lets you outright ignore that kind of limitation.

[Reinboom]

Only 3 Martial Stance and 3 Martial Study feats per character. I don't think the Chaos Shuffle lets you outright ignore that kind of limitation.

I know there is 3 martial study limits, but I'm pretty sure you can have as many martial stances as you want.

[AstralFire]

I know there is 3 martial study limits, but I'm pretty sure you can have as many martial stances as you want.

Ah, you're right - just checked. Sorry about that.

Could you guys offering ideas try to stay away from things like the Chaos Shuffle though? That trick's always smacked of Theoretical Op and Pun-Pun to me. Like, I couldn't see it getting used except in a game where using tricks like that was part of the stated objective.

[Reinboom]

Ah, you're right - just checked. Sorry about that.

Could you guys offering ideas try to stay away from things like the Chaos Shuffle though? That trick's always smacked of Theoretical Op and Pun-Pun to me. Like, I couldn't see it getting used except in a game where using tricks like that was part of the stated objective.

Fine.

What about using 3rd party published material? :smalltongue:

If someone can find a different way to get ~3 (I believe that's how many more is needed) martial stances, it should cover it.

Flaws?

-edit-
Actually, are there any items that cover the prereqs for entering master of nine? (IE: an item that gives dodge, etc.)

[AstralFire]

You can free up one right away by taking Unarmed Swordsage. You have to take Unarmed Swordsage if you want to go into Master of Nine. =p

[playswithfire]

This does it with only 3 items, one use of Martial Study and none of Martial Stance (Unless I missed something; please tell me if I did)

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +2/Master of Nine 5

{table=head]Class Lvl | Class/Source| Maneuver Level | Discipline | Maneuver
1|swordsage |1 |DW |Buringing Blade
| |S1 |DW |Flame's Blessing
2|swordsage |1 |TC |Wolf Fang Strike
| |S1 |DM |Stance of Clarity
3|swordsage |2 |DM |Emerald Razor
4|swordsage |2 |SS |Clever Positioning
| |2 |SH |Cloak of Deception
5|swordsage |3 |TC |Soaring Raptor Strike
| |S3 |SH |Assassin's Stance
6|swordsage |3 |SS |Devestating Throw
| |3 |DW |Death Mark
7|swordsage |4 |TC |Death From Above
8|swordsage |4 |DM |Bounding Assault
| |4 |SH |Hand of Death
9|warblade |S1 |IH |Punishing Stance
| |1 |IH |Steel Wind
| |2 |IH |Exorcism of Steel
| |3 |IH |Iron Heart Surge
10|swordsage |5 |DW |Leaping Flame
| |S5 |SS |Shifting Defense
11|swordsage |5 |DM |Disrupting Blow
| |5 |SS |Soaring Throw
12|swordsage |6 |SH |Shadow Noose
13|crusader |S1 |WR |Leading the Charge
| |4 |WR |White Raven Strike
| |4 |WR |Covering Strike
| |2 |DS |Foehammer
| |4 |DS |Entangling Blade
| |4 |DS |Divine Surge
14|swordsage |7 |DW |Inferno Blade
| |7 |SS |Hydra Slaying Strike
15|swordsage |7 |SH |Shadow Blink
16|master |7 |WR |Swarming Assault
| |8 |TC |Raging Mongoose
| |S8 |TC |Wolf Pack Tactics
17|master |8 |WR |White Raven Hammer
18|master |9 |DS |Strike of Righteous Vitality
| |9 |IH |Strike of Perfect Clarity
| |S8 |DS |Immortal Fortitude
18| feat |9 |DW |Inferno Blast
19|master |9 |SS |Tornado Throw
20|master |9 |SH |Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike
| |9 |WR |War Master's Charge
| |S8 |SS |Ghostly Defense
|item |9 |SD |Mountain Tombstone Strike
|item |9 |TC |Feral Death Blow
|item |9 |DM |Time Stands Still
[/table]

[Gralamin]

This does it with only 3 items, one use of Martial Study and none of Martial Stance (Unless I missed something; please tell me if I did)

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +4/Master of Nine 5
This character is epic, which is something we want to avoid.

[Hairb]

[QUOTE=SweetRein;4960763]Fine.

What about using 3rd party published material? :smalltongue:

QUOTE]

IIRC, ToB isn't OGL. TL,B.

[Arbitrarity]

So, let's see.
Swordsage 15:
21 maneuvers. 5 stances. IL 15.
Swordsage 13/warblade 1/Crusader 1
27 maneuvers. 6 stances. IL 14.
Stick 5 levels of Mo9 onto the second. Adds 2 stances, 8 maneuvers. That's 35 maneuvers, 8 stances, for 43 total maneuvers for prerequisites.
However, you only have a maximum of 6 of those as 9'th level, from Mo9 and a martial study. Therefore, add a crown of white ravens, a Iron Heart Vest, and a Ring of Diamond mind (or some other random 3 items. Doesn't matter)
Split the Swordsage maneuvers/stances as, say...
5 Shadow Hand
5 Setting Sun,
5 Desert Wind
4 Diamond Mind
4 Tiger Claw
Warblade Maneuvers/Stances as... 4 Iron Heart
Crusader... 3 White Raven, 3 Devoted Spirit.
Mo9, take a single White Raven Maneuver in the first 2 levels, and you have all prerequisites. Spend the 3 8'th level maneuvers/stance as you wish, and then grab Martial Study (9'th level strike) with your 18'th level feat. Take the 5 other 9'th level maneuvers, spend the stance as you wish, and pick up 3 items.

[Frosty]

I know there is 3 martial study limits, but I'm pretty sure you can have as many martial stances as you want.

There is no limit to Martial Stance. Ther eis, of course, a limit to how many feats you can have.

[playswithfire]

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordsage +3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +4/Master of Nine 5


This character is epic, which is something we want to avoid.

That's just because I wrote it down wrong.

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordage +3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +2/Master of Nine 5

Total of 13 swordsage levels, 1 warblade, 1 crusader and 5 master of nine. The table I posted had it correct.

[Reinboom]

Fine.

What about using 3rd party published material? :smalltongue:


IIRC, ToB isn't OGL. TL,B.

Why would material being not OGL prevent you from using 3rd party material with it?


There is no limit to Martial Stance. Ther eis, of course, a limit to how many feats you can have.

Which is what my posts where trying to go over (that is, getting extra feats). You just quoted the wrong post without realizing it was a followup post to using something that gives you 8+ extra feats.

[Gralamin]

That's just because I wrote it down wrong.

Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordage +3/Crusader 1/Swordsage +2/Master of Nine 5

Total of 13 swordsage levels, 1 warblade, 1 crusader and 5 master of nine. The table I posted had it correct.

Ah, so your build is basically the exact same as mine, but with strategically placed levels.
You also have your stances off in MoT9, and I forgot to use one maneuver

[playswithfire]

Ah, so your build is basically the exact same as mine, but with strategically placed levels.
You also have your stances off in MoT9, and I forgot to use one maneuver

Basically. Taking warblade and crusader first reduces their usefulness since there aren't that many 1st level maneuvers.

[Darrin]

Is it possible (without epic levels, gestalt, or the like, of course) to build a true Master of Nine?

It is possible. There are three methods of varying degrees of dubiousness. Check my response in this earlier thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4673422&postcount=23

Kirech's Peerless Master of the Sublime Way takes all the prereqs and then uses a spell (heroics) to pick up any 9th level maneuver you might need. Requires a round to prep, and can't get all 9 at the same time, but rules-wise is pretty clean.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10504359

Gideon_Gideonson's Becoming Reshar uses magic items that grant maneuvers to qualify for every 9th level maneuver.

http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-897344

My Heaven of Nine build can get all 43 maneuvers necessary and doesn't use spells or magic items, but it does require two flaws and handwaving the requirements for Ruby Knight Vindicator to allow a dip in cleric for the Time and Darkness domains (Improved Initiative and Blindfight for Mo9 prereqs). If you allow retraining feats, it might be possible to rework Heaven of Nine to shift four of the Martial Stance feats to another discipline, and thus avoid both flaws and the non-Weejas cleric domains. But I haven't sat down to work it out yet.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13837556#post13837556