3e Poisons

[sonofzeal]

Alright, so I have the poison list from the SRD and BoVD, but I'm guessing there's a variety of poisons in various books that aren't listed in either source and I'm looking for something more comprehensive. Is there a master list anywhere of poisons? Thanks!

[Quietus]

Alright, so I have the poison list from the SRD and BoVD, but I'm guessing there's a variety of poisons in various books that aren't listed in either source and I'm looking for something more comprehensive. Is there a master list anywhere of poisons? Thanks!

Aside from Drow poison in the SRD, pretty much any poison outside of the BoVD isn't worth using. And even those inside it aren't that helpful, compared to their cost... although a DC 56 save vs 2d8 strength, repeated a minute later, or whatever it was for colossal monstrous spider venom is pretty brutal. Worth 1k+? That's up to the individual, I suppose. 90% of poisons are useless by the time you can afford them, because the DCs are so low.

[mostlyharmful]

90% of poisons are useless by the time you can afford them, because the DCs are so low.

I've run games where Poison costs are divided by 10, it led to using poison in combat and in storytelling is an actual option. It always struck me that this was one of the blunt weapon reactions of WotC to force 3.X into "good guy" play and it completely defies understanding once you think about how many substances are inimical to life and how easy it is to make them.

[namo]

The Crystalkeep Equipment pdf has a pretty long list of poisons.

[Eldariel]

I've run games where Poison costs are divided by 10, it led to using poison in combat and in storytelling is an actual option. It always struck me that this was one of the blunt weapon reactions of WotC to force 3.X into "good guy" play and it completely defies understanding once you think about how many substances are inimical to life and how easy it is to make them.

The dumb part is that the book specifically says: "Poisons are evil." That's like: "Bullying is just wrong. Destroying peoples' brains with magical powers is A-Ok."

[RTGoodman]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone use poison in a game because it mostly sucks. I had one friend that wanted to at some point (he was a Swordsage assassin, I think), but after looking over the poisons and rules for them he noted that, basically, they suck and never looked back.


The dumb part is that the book specifically says: "Poisons are evil." That's like: "Bullying is just wrong. Destroying peoples' brains with magical powers is A-Ok."

But it's okay - BoED has ravages and afflictions, which do the same thing as poison but only hurt Evil people, meaning they're okay to use!

*Runs and hides*

[Eldariel]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone use poison in a game because it mostly sucks. I had one friend that wanted to at some point (he was a Swordsage assassin, I think), but after looking over the poisons and rules for them he noted that, basically, they suck and never looked back.

Yea, they need a serious rewrite. The only worthwhile ways of using them are:
-Polymorph-line and similar abilities (Wildshape) to turn into a form with natural poison and use it.
-Polymorph-line and similar abilities (Wildshape) to turn into a form with natural poison and extract it.
-Get an animal companion (or an animal army through Handle Animal), with natural poison and have 'em use it.
-Use Handle Animal to make a wild creature or your animal companion to give you some of its poison.
-Use Minor/Major Creation to create poisons and deliver them through whatever means before they expire.

Note that none of them involve spending any money to buying them. As I personally love poisons as a weapon of choice (much more elegant than sticking things with swords - I have a huge distaste for the blatant and obvious; I'd rather not know who caused the targets' deaths), I'm going to rewrite the whole poison list at some point (including some worthwhile poisons to use vs. outsiders, undead and other such creatures) and already use an altered rule set for them (ever since reading the houserules thread and realizing how easy it is to fix them).


But it's okay - BoED has ravages and afflictions, which do the same thing as poison but only hurt Evil people, meaning they're okay to use!

*Runs and hides*

Yes. Nothing says good like making only evil dudes sick! Also, using poison to do the same thing is just wrong. 'cause poison as a substance is evil! On the same note, sticking pointy objects to people causing them to die is perfectly ok too! Same goes for sticking your fist into people, causing them to die. And the same goes for blowing peoples' minds up. All that is fine, but using poison is...totally unfair! Cause it needs to be delivered and is inefficient against a bunch of creatures and allows saves for no damage for ridiculously low DCs.

[mostlyharmful]

The dumb part is that the book specifically says: "Poisons are evil." That's like: "Bullying is just wrong. Destroying peoples' brains with magical powers is A-Ok."

Force Choke is evil, force beat them to death with the corpses of their friends is good. Sometimes designers just make dumbass decisions in order to sell the product, it's the task of those of us with functional braincells to ignore them it this regard.

[MammonAzrael]

Yeah, poisons suck. My house rule around it is change their save from a Fortitude save to a Con check. The only bonuses they get on the roll is their Con modifier, and any bonuses that explicitly state they add to saves vs poison.

Oh, and decrease their price. And make them not evil.

[Eldariel]

Force Choke is evil, force beat them to death with the corpses of their friends is good. Sometimes designers just make dumbass decisions in order to sell the product, it's the task of those of use with functional braincells to ignore them it this regard.

I quite fail to comprehend how making a remark in a small side paragraph in DMG nobody even reads on the first few passes through is going to sell the product (Force Choke is only evil 'cause of canon data) any more than just leaving it out of there, but I agree that it's our job as players to ignore the stupidity of the writers.

[mostlyharmful]

I quite fail to comprehend how making a remark in a small side paragraph in DMG nobody even reads on the first few passes through is going to sell the product (Force Choke is only evil 'cause of canon data) any more than just leaving it out of there, but I agree that it's our job as players to ignore the stupidity of the writers.

That was merely given as an indicative example, the point was that designers have a whole host of motivations and competing agendas going on and some of them have nothing to do with making a good game engine or internal consistancy. Just an observation that I'd fit 3.X Poison rules under. Makes it less irritating for me to understand why people are artificially boneheaded is all.

[Eldariel]

That was merely given as an indicative example, the point was that designers have a whole host of motivations and competing agendas going on and some of them have nothing to do with making a good game engine or internal consistancy. Just an observation that I'd fit 3.X Poison rules under. Makes it less irritating for me to understand why people are artificially boneheaded is all.

Ah, self-deception. That I can get behind.

[mostlyharmful]

Ah, self-deception. That I can get behind.

The best lies are the ones we tell ourselves.:smallannoyed:

[Eldariel]

The best lies are the ones we tell ourselves.:smallannoyed:

This is the truth. This is my belief! At least for now...

[mostlyharmful]

This is the truth. This is my belief! At least for now...

And because it's your belief it'll probably be borne out in your analysis of the world. One of those mental traps that being aware of it doesn't always help. Bleh, bed is calling. More cynicism tomorrow folks...

[Hal]

Dungeonscape has a list of greater poisons, but they suffer the same problem: Way too expensive. Even with the higher saves, they run thousands (or tens of thousands) of gold.

If you're going to use them in game, allow (or ask your DM to allow) a way of obtaining them that won't force you to spend your entire WBL to get one use of poison. I've even just left poisons as part of treasure and not considered it with the rest of their loot. It's a disposable item that can be interesting in use.

Just don't make it too good to not use.

[sonofzeal]

This is the truth. This is my belief! At least for now...
Hey, Chrono Trigger! =D

Anyway, I thought I remembered a specific poison or plant-compound-thingy that was more effective against elves... but maybe I'm thinking of Quintessential Rogue?

Speaking of which, has anyone taken much of a look at the poison guidelines in that book? If so, how balanced do you think they are?

[Jack_Simth]

The dumb part is that the book specifically says: "Poisons are evil." That's like: "Bullying is just wrong. Destroying peoples' brains with magical powers is A-Ok."
Curiously, in Core, the only time it mentions poisons in regards to alignment is in the Paladin write-up; and then, it's listed as something she needs to avoid due to the "act with honor" clause; something that's more along the Law-Chaos axis than the Good-Evil axis. Further, the Druid spell, Poison, does not have the [Evil] descriptor at all (unlike the Contagion spell, which does have the [Evil] descriptor).

It's only when you get to things like the Book of Exalted Deeds that it's said that poisons are Evil. That's not something in the Core books.

Also - for game balance reasons, poison save DC's need to be rather low, the costs need to be rather high, the effect needs to be fairly minor, or there needs to be a notable drawback to using it. If the Ranger-6 can be spitting out three save-or-suck/lose effects each round, every round, fairly cheaply, at range (poisoned arrows), there's a game-balance problem. If the save-DC's are such that most opponents you're facing make the save on a roll of 2-5, that isn't so much of a problem; if the price is so high that you can only afford to bring it out for special occasions on single arrows, that isn't so much of a problem; if the effects are reasonably minor, that isn't so much of a problem; if there's a notable drawback to using poisons (e.g., it takes 10 rounds before the first save is needed, so using them in combat is pointless), then it isn't so much of a problem.

But if you can spit out multiple save-or-suck/lose effects each round, with high save DC's, cheaply, with no notable drawbacks, then there's a problem: there's hardly any other strategies of note.

Perhaps WotC went overboard - but they weren't exactly wrong to make poisons range from "cheap and weak" to "decent but very expensive".

[Ascension]

It could be argued that cheaper, more effective poison would be the long-sought melee-magic balancing factor. Money would become a melee combatant's spell points, determining how many save-or-sucks he can apply to his blade...

[Eldariel]

However, since you don't want to force characters who'd never use poison to resort to it or suck, I personally dislike that approach. I think poison use needs to be viable, but not necessary to "compete".

[Ascension]

That's why I said "It could be argued." I'm not arguing it, I'm just saying you could.

I generally find balance arguments fairly amusing. It really doesn't matter until it starts impacting how much fun you're having in the game, and when it gets to that point, talk to your DM. As long as everyone's having fun, balance really doesn't matter.

[Jack_Simth]

It could be argued that cheaper, more effective poison would be the long-sought melee-magic balancing factor. Money would become a melee combatant's spell points, determining how many save-or-sucks he can apply to his blade...
Poison is a much better option for an archer than a melee character, in general - it's kinda tricky to have more than a dose or two of poison on a blade at a time; you have to keep re-applying it - but you can have quite a lot of arrows, individually poisoned in advance.

And as for ingested poisons? I'm fond of making "potions" of offensive spells. Slip a potion of Scorching Ray at caster level 11 into the target's drink, the target takes 12d6 damage, no save, if they drink it. Much better for assassinations.

[Ascension]

And as for ingested poisons? I'm fond of making "potions" of offensive spells. Slip a potion of Scorching Ray at caster level 11 into the target's drink, the target takes 12d6 damage, no save, if they drink it. Much better for assassinations.

You can do that? That's awesome. You could even "poison" a monk that way!

[Jack_Simth]

You can do that? That's awesome. You could even "poison" a monk that way!
Sorta. There's no restriction in place against putting hostile spells in potions. Undead will want potions of Inflict spells, for instance, which will be quite harmful to the living. The debatable part is whether it would maintain it's effectiveness when dropped into someone's drink. As a DM, I'd permit it - it's not like it's going to come up much, and it is a nifty way of doing poisons (you can get all sorts of effects - Sleep, Fear, Blindness, Deafness, Dispelling, Paralysis, Suggestion, Exhaustion, and so on - besides damage, although most of those get saves).

Oh, and you'd want to be wary of monkish SR when doing that - you may want to use an Extended Acid Arrow on a monk, rather than Scorching Ray.

[Ascension]

We tried to poison a monk's drink one time in a game I was in. He was low enough level he wasn't immune to it, but his saving throws were high enough he was in no danger anyway. He drained the bottle without ever realizing there was poison in it.

I'm just planning ahead in case that comes up again.

[mabriss lethe]

Maybe merge the rules for poisons with alchemy and give both of them a comprehensive rewrite and make both of them useful. Wouldn't that be grand?

[Rei_Jin]

I've considered putting together a point based system for working out effects and pricing... I may have to finalise it and put it up in homebrew to see what kind of adjustments I'll need to make.

Basing it off a similar system to the Epic Spell Seeds is not a bad idea me thinks, in that you start with a basic intent for the item, then you add in the modifiers how you want it to work, then you try and hit the Craft DC for it.

For example...

EDIT: This is just a rough hashing out. Feedback is welcome. Oh, and I put this up as well in the Homebrew section so as to not derail the discussion.


Elemental Flask: Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 per 1d6 of damage (starts at 0d6 damage)
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)

Effect Flask: Base DC 10 (Craft: Alchemy)
Add +5 for any one of the following effects: Entangling, Deafening, Blinding
Add +10 for either of the following effects: Sleeping, Paralysing
Add +2 per round of duration
Add +10 per increase in radius (starts at one 5ft square)

Poison Flask: Base DC 10 (Craft: Poison)
Add +5 per 1d6 of ability damage one of the following stats: STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA
Add +10 per 1d6 of ability damage to CON
If the secondary damage is greater than the initial damage, increase the DC by the relevant amount
If the secondary damage is to a different stat than the initial, reduce the DC by 5
Add +2 if the Poison is activated by ingestion
Add +5 if the Poison is activated by injury
Add +10 if the Poison is activated by inhalation or contact

Note: All flasks may only have one effect for the initial creation.

Combining effects:
If you wish to have more than one type of effect on a Flask, then design the different elements as individual flasks, then add the DCs together. If you are mixing elemental damage with poison damage for example, you would need to be able to hit the higher DC with BOTH Craft: Alchemy and Craft: Poison. Also, note that if you are combining a poison with an alternate effect, the alternate effect is administered in the same method as the poison. Poisons do not become area effects.

[Hal]

I've considered putting together a point based system for working out effects and pricing... I may have to finalise it and put it up in homebrew to see what kind of adjustments I'll need to make.

Basing it off a similar system to the Epic Spell Seeds is not a bad idea me thinks, in that you start with a basic intent for the item, then you add in the modifiers how you want it to work, then you try and hit the Craft DC for it.

For example...

EDIT: This is just a rough hashing out. Feedback is welcome. Oh, and I put this up as well in the Homebrew section so as to not derail the discussion.

That is an interesting system. I like that it's generalized, rather than each individual item having a separate DC.

How I would worry about balance would be to think about comparative wizard spells, and whether a character of similar level has a chance of crafting that flask/poison in a reasonable amount of time. For example, at level 5 a wizard can cast ghoul touch, which paralyzes for 5 rounds. A similar flask, by your accounts, would require a DC 30 check to make. Is this comparable enough?

My own guess is that the elemental damages are probably a little high. If you were to try to replicate a 5th level wizard's fireball, for example, it would be a DC 65 check. Perhaps you could integrate some way of lowering the craft DC by offering saves against the effects.

[BobVosh]

My own guess is that the elemental damages are probably a little high. If you were to try to replicate a 5th level wizard's fireball, for example, it would be a DC 65 check. Perhaps you could integrate some way of lowering the craft DC by offering saves against the effects.


Alchemist fire would be...DC like 34. I say like as it has a variable damage length, and I also don't have the book in front of me for exact damage. I believe it does 2d6 to 10 feet. 1d3 rounds?

Man I should know this.

[Eldariel]

Hey, Chrono Trigger! =D

Indeed, I'm glad someone pointed it out (and by your name, I wasn't really surprised it happened to be you :) - I've pretty much memorized that game by heart and use the quotes every chance I get). Now I'm just waiting for someone to pick up the Abridged-quote and have the balls to actually post it.


Anyway, I thought I remembered a specific poison or plant-compound-thingy that was more effective against elves... but maybe I'm thinking of Quintessential Rogue?

Speaking of which, has anyone taken much of a look at the poison guidelines in that book? If so, how balanced do you think they are?

Well, I don't own the book but have gotten to borrow it from a friend and took a look. It seems to contain few handy feats for Poisoning, except those feats just cost too much. The "prerequisite"-feat only gives +4 in Craft: Poisonmaking and removes the chance of poisoning yourself by botching up the work.

There's also a feat which allows extracting poison from dead creatures with poison - unfortunately that lowers the DC by 2d4, and it's something you should be able to do without a feat... Then there's one that lowers the poison costs by 10%. Unfortunately, it requires the prerequisite-feat, so they aren't economic.

There are new poisons, but there're no tables in this book so it's hard to do a quick scan of which are worth it and which aren't. But yes, the book seems to have poisons specifically targeting races, and few generic ones. Also, the book has guidelines for making and pricing poisons, but they're just the same ones that are the source of all our grief in the first place.

[Draz74]

Yea, they need a serious rewrite. The only worthwhile ways of using them are:
-Polymorph-line and similar abilities (Wildshape) to turn into a form with natural poison and use it.
-Polymorph-line and similar abilities (Wildshape) to turn into a form with natural poison and extract it.
-Get an animal companion (or an animal army through Handle Animal), with natural poison and have 'em use it.
-Use Handle Animal to make a wild creature or your animal companion to give you some of its poison.
-Use Minor/Major Creation to create poisons and deliver them through whatever means before they expire.

You forgot the best methods!

Play a Psychic Warrior and use Prevenom or Prevenom Weapon liberally
Use magic items like the Toxic Gloves in MIC that give you poisonous attacks



Oh, and you'd want to be wary of monkish SR when doing that - you may want to use an Extended Acid Arrow on a monk, rather than Scorching Ray.

Don't stomachs have acid resistance? Even on humans?

[Epinephrine]

Made some comments in your thread in the homebrew section.

[sonofzeal]

There are new poisons, but there're no tables in this book so it's hard to do a quick scan of which are worth it and which aren't. But yes, the book seems to have poisons specifically targeting races, and few generic ones. Also, the book has guidelines for making and pricing poisons, but they're just the same ones that are the source of all our grief in the first place.
Well, I don't have the book on my ATM, which is why I asked... but my memory was that the custom poison tables were useful because of the flexibility provided. It's kind of like how Weapons of Legacy in general are worse than useless, but if you get to use the custom creation guidelines than you can actually get something worth having. I've seen at least one person use it effectively, for what it's worth.

[Rei_Jin]

I've updated and added some things to the homebrew poison and alchemy. Thanks for the reply Epinephrine, you helped me pick up a few things and adjust them.

I understand the complaint about the high costs of poisons, but at the same time, I think that in some ways it's necessary to have them be that high. At the same time, the problem is not neccessarily the high cost of the poison, but the high cost combined with the low effectiveness of said poison. Using a user-defined system for creation allows you to make whatever poison you need for a specific circumstance.

And if the DM wants the costs to be lower, he's free to adjust the pricing. The system I've put in place attempts to stick close to the existing pricing modules. Reason for this? I'm trying to keep equivilency between magic single use items (Scrolls, Potions, etc) and non-magical, alchemical items. An item that mimics a fireball yet is non-magical, SHOULD be expensive.

Remember though, that the DMG treaure rewards for encounters assumes a 10-14% loss in wealth for expendable items and non-recoverable resources. Thus, when you have 45,000gp in gear, you've lost (on average) 4,500gp worth of expendable gear. Some people will spend this on magic, others will spend it on alchemy, etc.

And creating the poisons yourself will save you a lot of money.