OOTS and the mistakes of a DM [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kreistor

2008-09-21, 01:55 AM

I am getting tired of OOTS. There is a solid reason for that, and it's because the Giant has done something that I did as a DM.

I had a long term campaign going. Over a year in and I had a clear intent to go much longer again, and everyone was happy with that. Some characters had gone from 2 to 11 and players thought they could get into the low 20's. I always ask the players what they wanted to do next, when the plot timeline wasn't driving them. They chose to travel to an under-explored area of the world (continent sized) -- a place they had visited before. This was just going to be a side quest to break from the main plot. I intended it to take a couple months to complete, but I made a whoops. I grossly underestimated the amount of time it would take to complete the job.

9 months passed and the players hadn't seriously penetrated the problem. They'd adventured a lot and nibbled at the edges, but they weren't going for the meat of the problem. I finally pushed them, and it still took three months to forge through it. A year of real time had passed. Overall, that was almost 1/2 of the campaign. The players were sick of it after only 3 months, though they didn't complain.

The point was, the players were staying only because they wanted to do the main plot. They were tired and bored, but pushing through anyway.

I count the beginning of the divergence from the main plot in OOTS to start at the end of 443. You can measure it from somewhere else, if you like. That, to me, is where the party broke up. We are now at 594. 151/593 = 0.25. 25% of the comic is now concerned with merely recovering from the consequences of the event of 443. And it shows no sign of letting up. If the Giant continues to add problems to overcome, by the end of this side adventure, 40% of the comic may be consumed.

The Giant made the same mistake as myself, and I am providing the same feedback that they did to me. This side adventure is so large in scope that it has overwhelmed the main plotline. That might be okay if the side adventure had a solid plot of its own, with equal consequences, but it does not. The flow is chaotic, switching back and forth between three main stories (ignoring that there is still LG and Team Evil that may get serious air time), with over a year of real time passing before the resolution of any of the individual problems.

When the OOTS started, it filled a certain niche. It was a comic about a roleplayed story. It had references that put players behind the characters. It was about a party. It had a plot (eventually). It had strong humour, often based on the niche it occupied.

The Giant has stated the RPG side was not being maintained, and that story would dominate. This abandons the RPG references and mockery thereof, and the party-centric nature of the tale, and now humour comes from general events, puns, and interactions, which is no different from any other comic. That means the story's plot and characterization are all that remain to make the comic work. The story, then, has to maintain the strip. And the current situation leaves much to be desired story-wise. The main plot has been completely abandoned. Even side-plot progression advances at a crawl, made worse by the numerous simultaneous and unrelated plots each sub-group suffers, and complicated by increasingly annoying new roadblocks to overcome which prevents the resolution of relatively simple issues.

So, it is this simple. I am bored of the OOTS. Yes, I still read it, but only because I am waiting for the main plot to continue.

FujinAkari

2008-09-21, 02:00 AM

While I understand what you are saying, I think it a mistake to assume that "the players" are all bored of the direction that OOTS has taken.

I didn't read OOTS every day when it was a compilation of rules jokes, and there is a reason for that. I for one continue to be interested in where the story has gone, and the forums are MUCH more active than they used to be as a result.

AceOfFools

2008-09-21, 02:24 AM

I for one, like the side plots. I also like the flow and way Rich has weaved the stories together. Excluding the Orc Island "episode", at any rate, which didn't have the most graceful intro Rich has done and focused on jokes I didn't enjoy. Liked the outro, though.

I've always enjoyed stories where focus shifted to different cast members like this, and where not all problems were created by a single source.

I don't expect my reaction to be common, in fact I suspect people like you outnumber people like me, but I'm not going to fault Rich for giving me exactly what I want.

I'm selfish like that.:smallamused:

Lord Seth

2008-09-21, 02:24 AM

The constant switching-back-and-forth is a bit annoying. When you're trying to tell four or so simultaneous stories, it slows the whole thing down.

But you're right; the overall story has barely moved an inch for a while.

JoseB

2008-09-21, 02:47 AM

Speaking for myself, I like how the story is going as of now. It will make the eventual reunion of the whole group (for it will happen at some point, it is a given) much sweeter for everyone involved (and that includes the readers).

Also, I don't mind reading subplots. The book generally considered as the first modern "novel" of the western world, and also generally considered a masterpiece, "Don Quixote", has a humongous amount of subplots going on, on top of the adventures of the main character -- and it won't bore the reader (at least, most of the readers who go through it).

I imagine that the problem here may stem from the slow pace inherent to webcomics. If one were to wait and read it all through in one archive binge, it would flow much faster and the impression of "when the hell is this going to end" might be diminished.

Just my 2 eurocent!

Niley

2008-09-21, 03:44 AM

Well I don't complain about the length of OotS as long as every strip contains something funny. And in fact, I enjoy it as it is. For example, the latest strip, 594 - it doesn't advance the plotline much, but it made me chuckle. And that's the flavor.

Who_Da_Halfling

2008-09-21, 03:48 AM

While I agree that the storyline has gone on for a very long time. Until I reread the archives last week, I hadn't really even realized that it had been a full year since the party broke up.

That, I think, is due to the Giant's strength as a storyteller.

The fact that I have faithfully followed and gotten wrapped up in what is essentially a side quest and been completely oblivious to how long it has been progressing for is a testament to how well it has been told and how interesting it is (not to mention humorous and enjoyable). I think that, as long as the side-story remains interesting and the characters continue to develop and remain compelling, Rich could continue the side quest for as long as he likes without much concern.

I also agree that, when we look back upon this comic as a complete work, this side quest will not feel nearly as long as it is for us now, and will be doubly enjoyable for it.

-JM

Werewolf

2008-09-21, 03:56 AM

I have to say I agree up to u point. This tends to happen in fantasy books a lot - all the characters get their own little narrative which, while interesting, tends to prolong the length. This is fine if done in modereation but can get seriously tedious if it goes on for too long. The Wheel of Time became nearly unredable after book 5 or so, and G.R.R. Martin is starting to suffer from it too. OOTS hasn't reached the point where it's becoming boring, but there's more and more loose ends to tie up...

Woof

2008-09-21, 04:04 AM

Basically agree. Tired of the side quests. Wish the comic would get together the party again, then focus on the battle for the gates and defeating Xykon.

Jenx

2008-09-21, 04:10 AM

Mr. Bean

2008-09-21, 06:24 AM

So, maybe you would rather have everyone find a teleporter towards Xykon and overwhelm him, then save the world from the Snarl within, let's say, 6 comics (end would be at 600).

If we stopped focusing on side-plots and character development, the story would be done within no time. I like the way it's going now, simply because there is still good humour in the story, as well as reasonable plots and definitely not total chaos.

Lissou

2008-09-21, 07:51 AM

It's taking a long time in "real-time" because it's a webcomic, and we don't see the big picture. It's a bit like an author puiblishing only a page worth of text every nos and then. Imagine Rowling publishing only a page of the Harry Potter books a day, people would have started to be frustrated pretty soon, especially when the page would end in the middle of a sentence, like a webcomic ends up doing a lot (it's a figure of speech, of course, I'm not talking about dialogue being cut).

So, it's frustrating, you want to know what's going to happen next, and so on. That's normal.

I'd suggest you buy the compilation books directly when they come out. They all form a "finished" story within a bigger one. You'll also get some commentary to read afterwards. Just forget about the webcomic, check back in a year or so to see if there is a new prequel or compilation planned, and... that's it.

Traditional graphic novels are out only once a year or once every few years (at least it's the case for European graphic novels). What's more, they're only 54 pages long. So, once a year, you get 54 pages for any given series. Sometimes, once every 2 or 3 years you get one book (they're usually longer then, but not always).

What do we get with OOTS? We get several hundred pages. I mean, 54 pages a year is barely more than one page a week, and we're getting way more than that. So when it comes out in compilation form, trust me, you'll think things are going at the right pace.

A webcomic needs day-to-day readers, of course, but for those who find it too frustrating, it's probably best to put it on the side. Once every year or every other year or something, you can get completely into the story, and have your money worth of it. Online, we don't pay, but we also can't get completely into the story, because when we start getting into it, it's already over. So we don't really get out of it either, and it's probably not for everybody, especially if you care so much about the story, and want to know what happens next so much.

I really understand how you feel because I can feel that way a bit, too, but I'm sure the Giant himself sometimes feel the very same way, that's it takes so long to make the comic, to get the story to go where it needs to. But in the end, it's probably needed. And you get jokes along the way, which is neat.

LuisDantas

2008-09-21, 08:23 AM

The Linear Guild began as a sidequest, and grew into something far greater (and more entertaining). The current plots aren't half bad, either.

Lots of interesting possibilities to read while the Order deals with Kubota, Qarr, Crystal, Golem Roy and others. Not to mention Vaarsuvius, Hinjo and Blind Pete.

Rad

2008-09-21, 08:36 AM

I like the main plot mure than the curren side ones, but they are likeable and, more important, they aren't actaully that static. The Therkla line just got solved and Lubota will probably follow soon. Eagle'eye Pete was hilarious too.
Moreover we get some long-term stuff put forward:

* One more of the oracle prophecies has been now certainly fulfilled
* Belkar triggered the GMoJ
* Roy saw Belkar killing the oracle. This is going to have consequences.
* Celia's not-booty talisman got used
* Vaarsuvius is getting some character development
* We got more info on team evil and their plans; O'Chul interrogation was definitely related to the "main plot"

The orcs arc wasn't great (but the net joke saves it overall) but Lien, Hinjo, the Katos, and Blind Pete are really nice characters. The resistance is neat too.

The strip has always been oscillating between periods where stuff gets done and periods where the pace is slower and the jokes are more frequent (the net, Argent's teeth, just to name a few). Every time there are some people that complain after a while that the comic hasn't switched to the other "mode" yet. Recent events suggest that we're about to enter another "stuff happens" phase, so be happy. I'll gladly enjoy it as I did the latest strips.

Dacia Brabant

2008-09-21, 09:38 AM

I don't think your initial comparison--the party you GMed that chose to take a side story that ended up overrunning the main plot--fits very well at all to the situation in OOTS. The party didn't choose for Roy to die, not in any way other than choosing to fight the Big Bad, which sparked all of the chaos that's followed thereafter in the various side plots as they try to get back together.

They have had narrative causality forced on them, going all the way back to when Miko defeated them twice--no way should she have been able to pull that off without GM intervention. But that's really where the main plot started in the first place, with her railroading them off to Azure City. Before that happened they were basically aimless, going from one side plot to another, which incidentally is what's going on right now--only with the intent to get back to the way things were before everything fell apart.

Your real beef is that Roy died in the first place, causing this long disruption in their plans to defeat Xykon and save the world. That's fine, main character deaths that happen before the main plot is resolved often disturb a fan base, but that's because it's such a big deal when it happens. The fact that it's taking so long and they're having to go through so many trials just to get back to normal only accentuates that fact.

Maybe it would've been a better comic if Roy had lived--it certainly would have been very different, but also much shorter and I think less fulfilling.

snoopy13a

2008-09-21, 11:27 AM

As already pointed out - it's not the storylines out of the main plot that slow the comic down it's...well, the comic itself. It's the restriction of doing this in a webcomic format. You could always just stop visiting the page for a month or so, then go back and backread everything that gathered up in that time.

Exactly. From an objective standpoint, the pace is probably the same as it has ever been. However, many people started reading the strip after it first began. Those people (myself included) read through sections that took months and even years to be released in a matter of days. Thus, when we catch up, it seems that the pace has slown down.

As you said, if one stops reading for months and then comes back, the pace will appear quick.

Heroic

2008-09-21, 11:35 AM

I agree with you, and that happened to me too. When I first started reading the I though it to be really fast paced; but know where we have to wait some time to get each comic, it
it seems that the pace has slown down.

Kreistor

2008-09-21, 12:05 PM

Your real beef is that Roy died in the first place, causing this long disruption in their plans to defeat Xykon and save the world.

No, that isn't correct. Death in DnD has always existed, as has resurrection to bring them back. I do not complain that Roy died: death in RPG's must happen, or the players become too overconfident, and there is no real challenge. Roy isn't really gone, anyway. He has his own little story going on, regardless.

Disrupting the party's plans is disruption of the main plotline, so you are correct that part of my complaint involves that disruption. But it is not the disruption alone, but the real time delay that is separating the reader from the main plot. I didn't complain about the earlier side adventures. They were managable in length. The current one is simply far too long to count as a side adventure anymore.

Warren Dew

2008-09-21, 12:11 PM

I basically agree with the original poster. The way things are going, the entire next volume is going to show basically no plot advancement. While that's basically inherent to the point of the volume - that the order is dysfunctional without Roy - knowing that doesn't help much while we're slogging through it.

I don't think there's much that can be done about it now, other than maybe to drop the page count of the volume down to those of the earlier volumes rather than the more recent ones. We just have to hang on until the order gets back together and things start shaping up for Girard's gate, assuming that's the direction that things are eventually going.

Lowkey

2008-09-21, 12:12 PM

What, character development? No, we can't have that! Seriously, read through the archives and compare Haley and Elan at the start with them now. These sidequests have taken them from one dimensional cardboard cutouts to fleshed out characters who have developed new strengths as the series progresses.

I think it is important to remember that this isn't a comic about DnD jokes. It is an epic story told in comic form that uses DnD properties for the occasional joke.

Inhuman Bot

2008-09-21, 12:15 PM

I agree with the OP. I liked OOTS back when the party was together. Personally, I think that this current part of the story is allright, but the story would have been allright with it wraping up sooner.

LuisDantas

2008-09-21, 12:24 PM

These sidequests add variety and develop and introduce quite a few characters. Characters who may well play an important role in the quest against Xykon. I don't think even Roy is all that indispensable for a story to "really count" as some apparently do.

Fiery Diamond

2008-09-21, 12:37 PM

I agree that it can be frustrating with how slowly it seems to move, but I know that it is for the reason that people above said-- starting reading after the comic started. I do wish that things were a little faster, but I have absolutely no problem with the current quests - because there is a lot of character development, which, in my perspective, is > plot > jokes.

-Fiery Diamond

Warren Dew

2008-09-21, 02:14 PM

What, character development? No, we can't have that! Seriously, read through the archives and compare Haley and Elan at the start with them now.

They started as one dimensional characters with some interesting foibles and background to add depth. Now they're different one dimensional characters with no interesting foibles. While that is character development, it's not character growth, just change, and watching it happen is not, in my opinion, very interesting.

These sidequests add variety and develop and introduce quite a few characters. Characters who may well play an important role in the quest against Xykon.

Possibly, but it doesn't seem too likely. The most comparable earlier period was between the destruction of the Dungeon of Dorukan and Miko's capture of the order. The bandit king and his daughter did not turn out to be of long term importance. In the present sequence, Therkla is already dead.

It is possible that Hinjo or Celia could become long term associates of the order, but I'm not sure that requires over a hundred strips to set up.

I don't think even Roy is all that indispensable for a story to "really count" as some apparently do.

He wouldn't be if the rest of the group could get its act together without him. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be able to work together without a leader. It's possible Celia could become a leader for them, with Haley acting as her second as Durkon did for Roy, but I'm not sure how the readers would take that, either.

Black Cat Godess

2008-09-21, 02:31 PM

No character growth? Still one-dimensional? Warren, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you on that point. I believe there has been a great death of character growth done on ALL the characters, not just shifting from one dimension to another.

Take Haley. She starts out as just your average, greedy rogue. Then we find she has a crush on Elan. Then we find that her greed isn't really greed, it's trying to raise money to get her father out of jail. So not only to we revise her original characterization, we add backstory and a deeper meaning and intent behind her persona and character.

Look at Elan. He starts out as a cheerful, annoying bard. Over the comic, he still does keep his loveable, childish charm, but his own love for Haley forces him to grow up. He becomes a viable member of the group, more than just back up. The side plots with his brother color his past and give him his own unique foe. And now with Therkla, we see Elan starting down the path of someone very different than the bard we started out with that I really don't feel is just one dimensional anymore, if he ever really was.

As for the pace, I've been enjoying these arcs. They're different, yes, but different doesn't mean better or worse than the main plot. And as people have said, the plots not advancing as slowly as you think it is. Go back to the last start of this arc and read through; it's paced just fine and it's really only the slowness of the postings that make it seem slow. That's a problem with a lot of webcomics because it's an inherent flaw in online posting. <.< But I think someone already said that too.

Poop, I need to be more on top of things.

chiasaur11

2008-09-21, 02:57 PM

Chronos

2008-09-21, 03:05 PM

I basically agree with the original poster. The way things are going, the entire next volume is going to show basically no plot advancement.By that standard, the entire first volume had no plot advancement, either. It's clear by now that the overarching plot is the quest to keep the Snarl safely contained within its prison, and none of the main characters had any clue about that until She came along.

And yet all of the events of the first book were nonetheless essential to that overarching quest, just as the current events are.

TehSheen

2008-09-21, 03:16 PM

I personally agree with the original poster. I think that the plot should speed up a little, but I think that the character development is really good right now and should continue for like, 50 strips.

Sir_Norbert

2008-09-21, 03:43 PM

What is this obsession with speed? When I'm enjoying a journey so much that I know that when it ends I'll look back to when it was still ongoing with nostalgia, I certainly don't want it to go faster.

Yes, the plot has slowed down, but that's because it's broadened and acquired a greater variety of interesting characters and situations, which is all to the better in my book.

What I really like about the current situation is the way each thread contains its own tantalising hints of how it will later be vital to the overall plot, but we don't yet know how. Things like Roy's "I can remember everything!", Vaarsuvius's descent into ill-health and desperation, the introduction and development of the Katos. I love the way this comic keeps me guessing and keeps me intrigued, and the more there is of that the better, is what I say!

SPoD

2008-09-21, 03:53 PM

What I love is how these posts tend to appear right as things are obviously starting to wrap up. Therkla's dead, Kubota is captured, but hey, let's whine about the Therkla/Kubota plotline for a while!

It's like they can see the end coming, and they need to get in one last round of complaining before things change.

At any rate, a comic is paced differently than a game campaign. A year of gaming would cover more actual material than the entire OOTS strip so far. The last year of OOTS could be covered in three sessions. It's apples and oranges.

As suggested, try reading it only once or twice a year. Or hey, try not reading it at all, won't bother us any. It's not like Rich is going to read this thread and change his plots anyway.

Warren Dew

2008-09-21, 08:06 PM

Take Haley. She starts out as just your average, greedy rogue. Then we find she has a crush on Elan. Then we find that her greed isn't really greed, it's trying to raise money to get her father out of jail. So not only to we revise her original characterization, we add backstory and a deeper meaning and intent behind her persona and character.

All of that happened within the first 150 strips. That counts as how she was "at the start". Since then, she's lost the greed and seems to have forgotten about her father; she's only gained the self confidence not to lie some of the time. Losing two personality traits while gaining one counts as making her shallower in my book, not deeper.

Look at Elan. He starts out as a cheerful, annoying bard. Over the comic, he still does keep his loveable, childish charm, but his own love for Haley forces him to grow up.

To me, part of his charm was that he wasn't the type of person to kill people or fall into homicidal rages. Now he does so on a periodic basis. Again, certainly not deeper, and possibly shallower.

That said, if the character development were happening as fast in the last 440 strips as in the first 150, I don't think people would be complaining as much about the slowness.

By that standard, the entire first volume had no plot advancement, either.

The first gate got destroyed. That's as much as happened in the second and third books put together.

What I love is how these posts tend to appear right as things are obviously starting to wrap up.

I don't think there's any correlation. There were many complaints about slowness from the beginning of the orc island arc, not just at the end. There were a few complaints about Greysky city as soon as it was clear Roy wasn't going to be resurrected there. These happened well before the arcs wrapped up.

In contrast, there were no complaints at all about slowness during the big demon fight, because it seemed like something major was happening. I think once Girard's gate is in sight, the complaints will die down again too.

Dacia Brabant

2008-09-22, 08:54 AM

No, that isn't correct. Death in DnD has always existed, as has resurrection to bring them back. I do not complain that Roy died: death in RPG's must happen, or the players become too overconfident, and there is no real challenge. Roy isn't really gone, anyway. He has his own little story going on, regardless.

Disrupting the party's plans is disruption of the main plotline, so you are correct that part of my complaint involves that disruption. But it is not the disruption alone, but the real time delay that is separating the reader from the main plot. I didn't complain about the earlier side adventures. They were managable in length. The current one is simply far too long to count as a side adventure anymore.

Well all right, then let me ask you, in what way would it make sense for the established characters to move on and get back to the A-plot in the condition that they found themselves in after the loss of Roy and the destruction of Azure City? What could they (as in, what could Mr. Burlew) have done differently, while staying in character and being limited to their present resources and situations, that would have resolved the disruption and gotten back to the main plot?

Sstoopidtallkid

2008-09-22, 08:59 AM

Trizap

2008-09-22, 09:20 AM

Dacia Brabant

2008-09-22, 09:27 AM

If Xykon hadn't cast Cloister, then one of the nobles' Wizards would have been able to teleport to Haley the next day and bring her+Roy's body+any good beings that were trapped back. Dorkun would have raised Roy, and Roy could have started planning how to re-take the city.

Keeping in mind that the author established Xykon possessed that spell in material published several months prior to the posting of the episode in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html), why wouldn't he cast Cloister?

And that doesn't answer what the party could have done differently.

Sstoopidtallkid

2008-09-22, 09:28 AM

..........have any of you no patience? your complaining about it won't magically change anything, and don't you see? this IS the main plot, the OOTS being shattered is a part of it, the aftermath of the Battle of Azure City is supposed to be so devastating, big. be open-minded for this is a story your supposed to enjoy, you can't change anything by complaining, there is nothing you can change whatever happens in the story will happen, no matter who complains about it cause its its all up to Rich, not you.We know our complaining won't change anything, but if it bugs you that much stop reading. However, it's been 1/6th of the total run of the comic since Hinjo's Junk escaped the city. They have done almost nothing about getting Roy resurrected and reunited. We're nearing the end of another book, and have so far progressed nowhere in the main plot. I am a bit annoyed.

Edit: Rich is the one who determined whether or not Xykon had anything that could stop teleportation and scrying across a city. The OotS has done what they can so far, my complaint is with Rich.

Chronos

2008-09-22, 11:13 AM

The first gate got destroyed. That's as much as happened in the second and third books put together.But in the first book, the Gate getting destroyed wasn't yet a major plot point. The overarching plot didn't even exist (at least, as far as the readers could tell: I'm sure Rich planned further in advance) until the Crayons of Time.

Maelstrom

2008-09-22, 11:17 AM

...unredable after book 5 or so, and G.R.R. Martin is starting to suffer from it too.

How's that? You'd have to profuce actual text to have that happen :smallmad: And our boy George seems to be having an issue with that...

back on topic... This has happened before... many voices were heard, and eventually things got back on track for a (short) while.

I enjoy seeing new parts and characters in the OOTS world, but jeesh, it does take its time...

Manga Shoggoth

2008-09-22, 11:35 AM

...After all, Tolkien made exactly the same mistake. He had a nicely-rounded party of hobbits, humans, elf and dwarf. What did he do then? He split the party. Twice! Three times! Then he fractured the fractured parties!

Whole books were devoted to the doings of these individual fragments of the party, rather than just getting them all back together quickly to....

...oh, right...

Now, when I was reading LOTR, I really didn't care much for the "Sam and Frodo Mordor Travelogue" (neither the pace nor the content), but rather enjoyed the antics of the rest of the party. Just because the focus is a little spread out doesn't mean the story has halted.

And - as people have pointed out - this is a graphic novel coming a few pages at a time. As such it works remarkably well.

Gamerlord

2008-09-22, 01:48 PM

What exactly was the side quest?
Also personally, me...i wish that this webcomic was purely comedic and had 0% plot.

Morty

2008-09-22, 01:50 PM

Also personally, me...i wish that this webcomic was purely comedic and had 0% plot.

Then it'd be probably long over. 100% comedy webcomics tend to have short lives. There's limited time in which the author can throw D&D jokes around with no plot.
I'm myself perfectly fine with comic's plot so far. Sure, it's not very fast, but are we in a hurry somewhere? It's not like something will happen if the comic isn't over in a year or so.

Shatteredtower

2008-09-22, 02:16 PM

What is this obsession with speed?

Relevance, not speed. I'm perfectly happy to see the strings pulled on a half dozen subplots, so long as they are either: a) don't prevent advancement of the main plot, or b) short.

Haley's speech disorder was the first sort. Durkon's rescue by Hilgya was of the second sort. Mr. Burlew has managed to meet one or both criteria time and time again up -- until now.

When I'm enjoying a journey so much that I know that when it ends I'll look back to when it was still ongoing with nostalgia, I certainly don't want it to go faster.

If I purchase a train ticket to ride from British Columbia to Nova Scotia and someone decides to pad the trip with a month long tour of Guatemala, I'm going to be a bit put out. Sure, it would be a great trip, but it's not the one I paid or prepared to see.

When I go to a meeting on real estate development in my community and it gets cut off off midway through for an hour long slide show of well toned 22-year-olds in beach wear, I'm going to be irritated even if the show is well done.

What I really like about the current situation is the way each thread contains its own tantalising hints of how it will later be vital to the overall plot, but we don't yet know how.

It would be nice if they were delivered in the actual story, however, rather than in some tangential anecdote that went on too long.

...the introduction and development of the Katos.

You assume the Katos are going to be relevant to the final resolution of the plot?

What I love is how these posts tend to appear right as things are obviously starting to wrap up.

Are they? Or are we going to get the same kind of bait and switch we were treated to with Haley, Celia, and Belkar? After a hundred strips, Haley finally heads toward someone that could have pointed them in the direction of a concrete resolution, only for Belkar to shut that option down hard. It's not like the party's problems would have been over even if the Oracle had been offering good advice: none of them have teleport magic, so any effort to reunite would still have taken awhile.

But it doesn't stop there, no. It's not enough that they have to take the long route after all -- no, let's arrange to have the party lose Roy's corpse to someone that reanimates it as a golem, throwing in the thieves' guild subplot (though it appears to be the least relevant of Haley's subplots) on top of that.

Therkla's dead, Kubota is captured...

Yeah, well, if the Giant is true to recent form, that's only going to be one more thing that delays any meaningful progress anywhere else. Entertaining or not, it gets irritating after awhile.

At least with Gilligan's Island, you knew that they were never intended to get off the island during the series' run. Here, you know that there's a point to these events, and if the writer could just stop interupting himself with one divergence after another long enough, you might actually get to read it.

As suggested, try reading it only once or twice a year. Or hey, try not reading it at all, won't bother us any.

Yeah, I'm going to have to call you on that one. If it really didn't bother people to have the Giant called on this, we wouldn't be barraged with two dozen comments similar to this one every single time someone makes the observation.

It's not like Rich is going to read this thread and change his plots anyway.

If he learned how to tighten his art, he can learn to tighten his writing. Whether that comes about because people criticized it or not is entirely irrelevant to the fact that it could use tightening.

..........have any of you no patience?

I spend several hours a week reading chess books and analyzing games. For fun. I do this in preparation to play one game a week, which usually takes up two to four hours.

Yeah, I think I know a little bit about patience, but what does that have to do with criticizing a writer for getting wrapped up in tangents?

...After all, Tolkien made exactly the same mistake. He had a nicely-rounded party of hobbits, humans, elf and dwarf. What did he do then? He split the party. Twice! Three times! Then he fractured the fractured parties!

And yet each and every one of these factions continued to work actively and meaningfully toward the same end, that of ending the threat to Middle Earth. (The later chapters in the Shire? Not so much.)

Now imagine if, at the end of The Fellowship of the Ring, Merry and Pippin had instead gone off to visit with Tom Bombadil again for half the length of The Two Towers, with the other half dedicated to Aragorn's struggle to broker a peace between elf factions in Rivendell. Then throw in the occasional reference to Sam and Frodo walking around in circles, getting no closer to their goal.

That's closer to what we're getting. Sure, it's still entertaining at times, but it's not the story I came to be told. I don't mind all the little side plots, but it's a bad sign when they put the actual story on hold for over a quarter of the run.

Hzurr

2008-09-22, 02:17 PM

As some of the other posters mentioned, I simply feel that OotS is suffering a bit from "Wheel of Time" syndrome. The party split up for various reasons, and while all the various stories are relevant and make sense, we care about some arcs/characters more than others, and having to spend time switching back and forth between ones we care about and ones we don't is frustrating. My biggest fear is that you start getting into to so many sub-plots that you get what Wheel of time fans saw in books 8-10, where the main characters barely appear.

As for me personally, I enjoy reading the Roy stuff, I enjoy the Haley/Belkar/Celia arcs, but I am really tired of reading the Elan arc. The only thing that is really keeping me interested in that one, is to see what happens to V. I really don't care about a ninja half-orc, and I don't care about the baby that the azurites are having. Now, I know that other people don't feel this way, and that's fine, but I would like some convergance before too long.

SPoD

2008-09-22, 02:23 PM

Hzurr

2008-09-22, 03:31 PM

You know, I changed my mind. The MOST annoying thing about threads like this is that when the Order eventually reunites and Roy is raised, everyone will claim that Rich obviously did it just to please them--as if he never had a plan for reuniting the Order before they complained. Just like it seems half the forum now seems to think Miko got killed off because she was "too popular" and "overshadowed the rest of the strip" instead of it being his plan all along.

And I've heard this many times, and it never fails to make me wonder: How on earth did you know what story you were coming to be told? When has the Giant ever promised you ANYTHING about what the future content of the strip would be? This IS the story he is telling, and if it's not the story you want to hear, that's YOUR problem, not his!

Woah...calm down there buddy. Inhale, Exhale.

See? Doesn't that feel better =)

On a side note, I agree with you in part. A story never belongs to only 1 person anymore than a standard d&d plot belongs only to the GM. A story is a meeting of the teller, and the hearers; and requires a certain amount of give-and-take from each. There are times where the teller has to say "really, I know you don't like it now, but trust me on this, it has a point" and there are times where the hearers need to say "You're drifint off from the story you started to tell. You need to move back so we can hear the end of it."

Any writer/artist/entertainer/anything who ignores criticism is a bad writer/artist/whatever. That being said, any writer/artist/whoever who listens to all criticism and tries to please everyone is also a bad writer/artist/whatever. Now, some people do need to develop patience, that's true, but some people have a point.

*invites everyone to take a flower, and join in a rousing chorus of Kum-by-yah"*

Roderick_BR

2008-09-22, 03:50 PM

I don't think it's a "DM mistake" what the Giant is doing. Remember that, before being a RPG parody, OOTS is a comic, and this sort of split and drama happens. Actually, things that happens in comics/cartoons/movies/whatever show, sometimes really can't be put in a game. That's why it looks like this story wouldn't work on a real D&D game, because it wouldn't really.

pendell

2008-09-22, 04:01 PM

When has the Giant ever promised you ANYTHING about what the future content of the strip would be?

He has specifically promised us that Elan will get a happy ending, that Vaarsuvius will achieve ultimate power (whatever that means), that Xykon will go to Gerard's gate, and that Belkar will be dead within an in-comic year.

So he's actually promised us quite a bit, in point of fact.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Caractacus

2008-09-22, 04:12 PM

Some good points being made by the various posters here - with only a hint of grumpiness... :smalltongue:

I really, really like Oots. I am happy if the main plot takes time as this means more years of Ootsy goodness.

But I also have to confess that we seem to be going in all directions atm.

However, I think I have a slightly longer tether than Shattered Tower or Kreistor inasmuch as I am still okay for another two or three weeks. But, that said, I sense that by then, if we are still floating about (semi-literally) I will be a little anxious to get things moving together.

I am really looking forward to the Reunification of the Order of The Stick (ROots?), as I fully expect shed-loads of quips and sarky comments between the members. However, I fear that even if we get Roy back, we may lose V for a while, or worse... :smalleek:

Still, what is fun is to go back and read through a month or so of strips in one go - it all reads somehow better at that speed (as noted by others).

I don't expect anyone to not read Oots for six months or something, but maybe in two-week blocks as usually that should mean a half dozen comics or so - Rich's health allowing.

So, I wait to see what happens in the next month. Let's hope that there's progress, and then all this will be seen as more of the consequence of the shattering defeat at Azure City and not an issue in its own right (despite its statistical size as a fraction of the whole).

Happy Ootsing all! :smallcool:

Linkavitch

2008-09-22, 04:16 PM

Yeah, the sidequests are a little tedious. I want them to get Roy back, and kick Xykon's bony butt into the next plane, but that would mean the end of the comic.

Impikmin

2008-09-22, 09:33 PM

Agreed =\ Not to say I don't like what's happening now.

The Extinguisher

2008-09-22, 09:45 PM

I agree. This has gone on way to long.

How the next comics should go:

Comic 596 should have V gain total arcane power, and using it to zap the party together, raise Roy and kill off all the side villains.

Comic 597 will consits of the Order laying the smack down on the Linear Guild as the Monster in the Darkness is revealed, as well as other long term mysteries and subplots are revealed.

598 will be the Order fighting Xykon, and killing him and Redcloack. Everyone is happy until...

599 when the now epic Order must fight the Snarl, and save the universe for everyone.

600 will be a nice closing epilogue, wrapping up anything left. Miko will be back, and then die again. Belkar dies, then comes back. Durkon dies, and is buried in him home, which causes it to explode, and so on and so forth.

Not to mention these five strips will contain every character in each strip, but only in one pannel each, so we're not "X character heavy". They much each contain jokes and visual gags, but not 'cheap' jokes, and they must all advance something.

Thus, we create the perfect Oots strip, to please the fans.

:sigh:

Kreistor

2008-09-22, 10:01 PM

Well all right, then let me ask you, in what way would it make sense for the established characters to move on and get back to the A-plot in the condition that they found themselves in after the loss of Roy and the destruction of Azure City? What could they (as in, what could Mr. Burlew) have done differently, while staying in character and being limited to their present resources and situations, that would have resolved the disruption and gotten back to the main plot?

From this point? I never said Burlew could fix it now. It's too late. It has already gone on too long. I don't have suggestions on how to get out of it now (and the Giant wouldn't read them anyway, since there's a copyright issue involved). I could probably do it: I am a DM, and I write the stories my players play (Ie. I don't run modules), so it's not beyond me.

What could the characters have done? You're not thinking like an author: you're thinking like a player. Burlew controls what Cloister does, for instance. By not having it permanent for a year, the moment Haley left AC, V detects her, and Elan's party can head toward her, abandoning the Hinjo-Kubota side plot entirely. Aw, that doesn't give you a conclusion? Shucks, read about it in the papers. But it does the job, and shortens the side adventure. When you've caused a problem like I did, and you need to return to what the audience wants to see, sometimes you need to not write what you want to write.

Ironically, 595 (it came out the day after my OP) seems to begin to address this situation. The Giant pretends to add another roadblock and annihilates it himself, instantly and arbitrarily. He's pointing out that the roadblocks were put there by him and are solved by him at his own discretion. That's one difference between my problem and his: he doesn't have other people to convince to solve the problems, whereas I had four players that needed to be convinced to do things they hadn't thought of, or thought were beyond their characters. Burlew can, simply and arbitrarily, annihilate every roadblock. So the side quest continues at his discretion, as does the main plot (or does not, as is the current situation).

I will make one point on character development, to those that seem to think that justifies the current situation. Side adventures are not required to develop character. So, sorry, but character development alone does not predicate a side quest, especially one of this magnitude. Character development during main plot is not only common, but fairly expected. Development is the result of things changing, and plotlines are inherently about change. Stores are, basically,

0. Steady state, everything is okay.
1. Something changes.
2. Protagonist(s) try to fix the change (which is in itself a series of changes).
3. New steady state is achieved.

Since change is inherent in the structure of a story, character development can happen during that main story. A separate story for the purpose of character development is simply not required.

So I'm happy that you are enjoying your character development, but your desires are not incompatible with main plot development. You and I can have what we want at the same time.

JaxGaret

2008-09-22, 10:28 PM

crinkle

2008-09-22, 10:47 PM

{Scrubbed}

innk

2008-09-23, 02:48 AM

Lets just have in mind that Rich is not doing a favor to anyone here, this is his job, this is what he does to live (not really sure about this, but oh well :P)

We are his costumers, if the story turns into something we are not liking, we just wont buy anymore of his books. Or games, or shirts, or whatever else.

I always thought that the purpose of this whole forum was to let people criticize, as it was said in this thread, any artist who dont take any critic is not a good artist. People seriously need to stop shouting at anyone who comes with a criticism with arguments like "its free, you dont like it go away!". This kind of argument just proves you dont have a clue about what you are talking about. Maybe people need to see the author himself show up and tell them that logical criticism HELPS and IMPROVE his work, to stop acting like this, since it will just lead to people who could in fact help the story to grow better just quit, just give up trying making whats good, best. Or making whats good, stay good..

Rad

2008-09-23, 04:44 AM

Benime

2008-09-23, 04:55 AM

Red XIV

2008-09-23, 05:14 AM

I am getting tired of OOTS. There is a solid reason for that, and it's because the Giant has done something that I did as a DM.

The problem is that you're thinking of this as D&D campaign, when it's actually a webcomic that among other things parodies D&D. If the D&D parody elements were all there was to OotS, I highly dought it would've lasted as long or become as popular as it has.

The first gate got destroyed. That's as much as happened in the second and third books put together.
In the second and third books put together, we:

Learned about the significance of the gate being destroyed was, and thus that defeating Xykon was about much more important things than just fulfilling the Greenhilt family's vendetta.
Saw two of the PCs get together romantically.
Saw the leader of the group die.
Saw a second gate get destroyed.
Saw the survivers get split into two separate groups with no short-term prospects of being reuinted.

I think that's quite a bit more than what happened in the first book, and it's not even including the significant events relating to the major NPCs.

RedMike512

2008-09-23, 05:25 AM

I agree with the OP. I really don't find all the Azure City/Hinjo stuff interesting. I'm just sort of waiting for that to get over with so we can get back to what feels like the "real" story.

Shadowcaller

2008-09-23, 06:17 AM

I must say that I strongly disagree with everyone that want to "speed up" the plot and some of the comments is making me hope that the giant never listens to fan speak... ever.

Imrix.

2008-09-23, 06:31 AM

Mark me down as somebody who enjoys the current arcs. I don't think the main story is in any way more interesting than all this; heck, I enjoy the current arcs more than the main story. Saving the world is overdone, but the current arcs provide plenty of interesting substories that are a joy to read, for me.

It helps, I think, that I don't view this as a side story. As far as I'm concerned, this is a major plot in its own right. Try reading Pratchett, he does this all the time- he often has four or five equally important plots running at the same time, and that's what I see here.

Kreistor

2008-09-23, 07:21 AM

Try reading Pratchett, he does this all the time- he often has four or five equally important plots running at the same time, and that's what I see here.

Pratchett has multiple protagonists and deals with one in each book. He doesn't have three protagonists in one book working on their own plots, which resolve four books later (which would be the analogue to the current situation in the OotS). Those characters may have minor events that are unresolved from one book to the next (like "Where has Rincewind wound up tis time?"), but the unresolved issues are relatively unimportant to the universe. The primary plot in each book is finished in that book, and side adventures in that book are resolved in relatively short time since the main plot resolves in a few hundred pages. There's no over-arcing plot left unresolved through the series, just normal life (well, normal for Rincewind, anyway) which has its own problems.

Robert Jordan (RiP) is a better comparison. In Wheel of Time, he had mutliple protagonists in the same book running around working on their own plots, many of which went unresolved for several books. At least one book in the series could have gone entirely unwritten, with no one noticing because nothing changed from start to end, and that's something considering the size of those novels. This resulted in the formation of the Red Pen Brigade. Readers intended to go to book signings and hand his wife a red pen. She was his editor, and people wanted her to start pusing Robert to rip out sections that were simply narrative with no purpose. Robert himself didn't disagree. His intent for a 5 book series had blown out to 11. He decided 12 would be the last, and sat down to finish it all in one go. He heard his audience, agreed with them, and decided to plow the last book out. Unfortunately, he succumbed to his illness before finishing, but he did write the outline, which a young author will finish for him. (I expect the book to be chopped in half and simultaneously published. It's too much for a normal thickness novel.)

Two points can be made there.

1. Authors listen to the complaints of their audience, and may change their work based on those complaints.
2. Authors can unintentionally let storyline get away from them, and fail to notice for long periods of time, ultimately becoming disgusted with their own work.

Some of you think I wrote this as a troll. I couldn't care less if anyone responded. I wrote this for Rich. And I'm glad you're voicing your opinions. It is in threads like this that Rich gets his best feedback. Usually he hears only from the extremes -- those that love the comic excessively and don't care what he does (this doesn't help, since he can't change anything to please them more), and those that are mad he hurt something they loved (which doesn't help, since those events are rare enough, but entirely unavoidable in the course of the story, since some things have to be hurt and everything is going to be loved by at least one person). He has little feedback from those in the middle of the road, until something pushes them into the extremes.

Point was, I wrote this for Rich, because I know that feedback like this can result in him learning that there are dissatisfied readers. Not all, certainly, but a growing contingent.

Ron Miel

2008-09-23, 09:10 AM

... I count the beginning of the divergence from the main plot in OOTS to start at the end of 443. You can measure it from somewhere else, if you like. That, to me, is where the party broke up. We are now at 594. 151/593 = 0.25. 25% of the comic is now concerned with merely recovering from the consequences of the event of 443...

In the first place, this is hardly new.
Book 1 - battle Xykon at Dorukan's gate
Book 2 - several side quests.
Book 3 - battle Xykon at Soon's gate.
Book 4 - several side quests

Even in books 1 and 3 there were a number of subplots. Book 1 would have been a lot shorter if The Giant had cut out the evil twin and the dwarf sex subplots. There's a lot of other stuff that could have been cut out. Instead of the arrest and trial plot, just send them a message asking for help. Cut out Miko entirely. It could be O-chul that destroyed the gate instead. And so on.

The main plot arc, fighting Xykon, has been maybe about 25% of the story so far. And that's the way I like it. Rich could have cut the other material but doing that would weaken the overall story in many ways:

1) It would have made the plot arc very repetitious and boring: fight Xykon, beat him but only on a temporary basis, fight Xykon, fail to beat him, fight xykon, fail to beat him, etc until final battle and victory.

2) it would have been a lot shorter, probably finished in 200 strips.

3) It would make the heroes seem like losers. In order to be heroes they need to have a series of minor bad guys to beat until they get the big bad. They need to foil the assassins, and beat the bandits, and rescue the dirt farmer to show how heroic they are.

I expect book 4 will be ending within a few strips, and book 5 will get back to the main plot. They will travel on to Girard's gate. There will be a lot of other stuff happening too. They might encounter pirates on the voyage, and spend 20 strips fighting them. Crystal will pursue Haley, she'll cause trouble for another 35 strips or thereabouts. The linear guild will doubtless be back. At most about a third of the book will be about fighting Xykon. And it'll be great.

Lissou

2008-09-23, 09:38 AM

I expect book 4 will be ending within a few strips, and book 5 will get back to the main plot. They will travel on to Girard's gate. There will be a lot of other stuff happening too. They might encounter pirates on the voyage, and spend 20 strips fighting them. Crystal will pursue Haley, she'll cause trouble for another 35 strips or thereabouts. The linear guild will doubtless be back. At most about a third of the book will be about fighting Xykon. And it'll be great.

Define "a few"? I have absolutely no basis for this, apart from comparison with the previous books, but I thought there would be around 180 strips in the next book. Which would make it last until 660 or so. So I'd expect at least 50 more strips, or this book would be a lot shorter than the previous ones (apart from book 1) due to having less strips, and among them less double-strips as well.

PresidentEnder

2008-09-23, 10:01 AM

How about the theme of this entire book is the party apart, and we can get back together with the next one.

pjackson

2008-09-23, 10:06 AM

While I understand what you are saying, I think it a mistake to assume that "the players" are all bored of the direction that OOTS has taken.

Well, Roy's player probably is:smallsmile:

I suspect he may have got a job overseas for a while and the DM is waiting for him to return.

Caractacus

2008-09-23, 01:13 PM

Lets just have in mind that Rich is not doing a favor to anyone here, this is his job, [...] We are his costumers, [...]

Excellent. Forget the plot - I wanna be Rich's costumer!

*hands him Llama suit*

:smallcool:

crinkle

2008-09-23, 01:19 PM

I agree with everything the OP says and find his comments helpful and well-intentioned.

Ridureyu

2008-09-23, 01:23 PM

It's begun to drag for me, too, but the comic isn't bad. It's just been less-than-entertaining lately, at least for myself, for the reasons outlines on page one. The webcomic feels as though it's been derailed by heavy Cerebus Syndrome, along with a lot of, "Ha, ha! Here's a shout-out/insult to the arguments on the forum!", and the story can suffer a bit through that. The pacing has slowed down a lot, but it never really waas that fast to begin with - it's pulled a "Sluggy," though.

If the comic is feeling stale to you, why not read it once-weekly or once every other week, and then go through the backlog of what you missed/ The pacing will surely seem better then.

Fawkes

2008-09-23, 01:59 PM

I disagree with the OP, mostly because it sounds like he hates OotS and thinks it's all wrong and should be done in a completely different fashion. I love OotS as it is, and I trust Rich Burlew to create a story that I will thoroughly enjoy, and so far I have been greatly rewarded.

I look forward to the release of book 4, and I hope that there are plenty of bonus strips involving Therkla, Kubota, the Katos, and the paladins. If Rich separated the main story from the Azure City plotline, and turned the Azure City plotline into a spin-off, I would read that too.

While you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, please don't assume that your preference is the "correct" or "better" one, as there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with you. Just because Rich hasn't tailored the comic to your exact specifications doesn't mean he's made any mistakes.

Ridureyu

2008-09-23, 02:03 PM

While you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, please don't assume that your preference is the "correct" or "better" one, as there are plenty of people on this board who disagree with you.

I took what he said as a statement of opinion, while a bunch of people who are currently happy with the comic are pulling the, "My interpretation is correct! All you do is hate OotS!"

Please, realize that it applies both ways.

Fawkes

2008-09-23, 02:27 PM

The opening post repeatedly states that Rich has made a mistake. On page two, Kreistor says the comic can't be fixed, because "it's too late," and declares the Rich should've done things differently. The tone of his posts suggest (to me, at least) that he speaks for the entire audience, and all of his criticisms need to be addressed or OotS will be ruined, effectively implying that he can write the story better than Rich can.

Just because he wants a certain way, doesn't mean it should have to be that way, or that any other way is wrong.

Lord Seth

2008-09-23, 03:42 PM

I must say that I strongly disagree with everyone that want to "speed up" the plot and some of the comments is making me hope that the giant never listens to fan speak... ever.We don't want him to "speed up" the plot, though. We want the plot to actually be moving.

There's a bigger difference when a car switches from 0 MPH to 5 MPH than there is when a car switches from 5 MPH to 50 MPH.

Eric

2008-09-23, 04:01 PM

I am getting tired of OOTS. There is a solid reason for that, and it's because the Giant has done something that I did as a DM.

I had a long term campaign going. Over a year in and I had a clear intent to go much longer again, and everyone was happy with that.

blah

blah

blah

Here's a real important point for your education, junior.

THERE ARE NO PLAYERS.

'K?

TheElfLord

2008-09-23, 04:10 PM

A well worded and thought out OP. I think it presents criticisms rather than attacks and provides a good perceptive. I agree with everything in the OP. I'm as pleased by ats creation as I am surprised the mods haven't locked this bit of criticism away yet.

Theodoriph

2008-09-23, 04:14 PM

@OP

Your failure as a DM has very little to with Oots.

Having said that, as DM, you should have changed your main plot so that the PCs actions had relevance instead of letting them accomplish jack all. You should have altered the plot instead of yelling at them months later for not accomplishing anything.

Now with regards to the pacing, I have no problems with it. The plot advances nearly every strip and it keeps me entertained.

Iball

2008-09-23, 04:40 PM

This is certainly an interesting thread, and I'd just like to say I've always enjoyed the comic throughout, myself, and have read it since the introduction of the Linear Guild. I guess I just don't mind the slow updating process.

:)

Shatteredtower

2008-09-23, 06:03 PM

And I've heard this many times, and it never fails to make me wonder: How on earth did you know what story you were coming to be told?

Easy: I read strip #13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html). That eventually developed into something larger, centred around an event narrated over several strips, starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0272.html).

When has the Giant ever promised you ANYTHING about what the future content of the strip would be?

SPoD, if I told you I was going to relate the story of how I met my mother again after nearly 25 years, any side stories I relate in the course of this tale had better either be brief or directly related to the main story. Anything else gets annoying quickly, and is usually a sign of bad storytelling.

It doesn't matter that it continues to be entertaining -- and it is still entertaining. What matters is that this tendency toward run-on tangents is detrimental to that entertainment value, and that will grow worse if effort isn't made to address it.

Hell, I still read Megatokyo, mainly because the author eventually realized where he was going wrong and is actively working toward a conclusion. (His pacing still needs work, but there's an obvious direction involved now.)

This IS the story he is telling...

-- except that he hasn't been for awhile now, actually.

--and if it's not the story you want to hear, that's YOUR problem, not his!

You have it backward. If the tendency to showcase overstretched and convoluted tangents that get in the way of the plot gets any more annoying, I'll stop reading. This is hardly a problem for me at all. It's one for him if the tendency starts hitting his book sales, however.

I must say that I strongly disagree with everyone that want to "speed up" the plot...

Once again, it's not about speed. It's about relevance and progress. There has been very little of either for a quarter of the series' run.

Over roughly the first hundred strips, we saw the party work toward a goal: the defeat of Xykon (and treasure!). In that time, we got the Linear Guild, a subplot romance for Durkon, and a bit of background on Roy's family.

Over the next hundred or so, we were shown how critical Roy's leadership is to the team (his later death only repeats the point), as well as how it really is a team -- and not an entirely incompetent one at that. We were shown that the villains at large were still going to be relevant to the group, as well as how.

The hundred plus strips after that brought them closer to the truth behind the main plot, relevant to Xykon's plans from the first time they fought him. It put them in position to change the world, with a few distractions relevant to what we'd seen of them faced along the way.

Then we got into the set in which everything all fell apart for our heroes. Unfortunately, this has also been a problem for the story for some time: lots happening, less of it relevant to the story's major goal than has been dedicated to pushing those goalposts further away. Great that it brings Haley back into contact with her thieves' guild background, but nothing on the more relevant captive father.

The Giant could have stretched out the reunion strips between Roy and the non-Eugene members of his dead family the way he's done with the other two arcs. There was no end of material he could have milked from that. Fortunately, he kept the plotting tight for that one.

Spiky

2008-09-23, 06:31 PM

Take Haley. She starts out as just your average, greedy rogue. Then we find she has a crush on Elan. Then we find that her greed isn't really greed, it's trying to raise money to get her father out of jail. So not only to we revise her original characterization, we add backstory and a deeper meaning and intent behind her persona and character.

All of that happened within the first 150 strips. That counts as how she was "at the start". Since then, she's lost the greed and seems to have forgotten about her father; she's only gained the self confidence not to lie some of the time. Losing two personality traits while gaining one counts as making her shallower in my book, not deeper.

Neither of you even began discussing her character development. She's matured as a person, witness her first showing a dozen internal Haleys and then overcoming her worries, beating down "dark Haley". And then advancing her relationship with Elan in a useful way. (and I'm talking about after getting her speech back) She has a hidden secret that only G knows. We've seen why she was identified as second in command long ago; both why she's capable of being in command and yet why she is not usually. She now has a nemesis, properly leveled and everything. Heck, she's even earned the respect (other than for boobs) of Belkar. Roy hasn't even accomplished that.

And of course, perhaps most importantly...she has knee high black boots. Nice! :smallbiggrin: I'd say the development of this particular stick figure has been pretty well accomplished.

I won't bore you with another character. Suffice it to say, they've all advanced dramatically in development.

Also, Kreistor. Really. THERE ARE NO PLAYERS. And no DM. In relation to OOTS, Rich is more comparable to Gygax and the other authors of D&D.

Spiky

2008-09-23, 06:41 PM

Another comment. How do so many see escaping Xykon and trying to reunite as a side quest? Is there to be no issues to overcome in the main quest? Face it, they got beat down and they haven't yet recovered. This goes directly to the main plot.

I've seen only 3 major side quests, and one of them turned into the main quest just when nobody expected it.
- Rescuing Julia
- Obtaining starmetal
- Railroaded by Miko

Everything else just happened in fulfillment of the main plot (such as Haley's slow escape from Azure City), or as moderately long stops en route. (such as defeating the thief band with the teenage sorceress)

Oh, and, I think V just answered all of your questions quite succinctly. (which is character development for him, btw, never used "succinct" for him before)

Kreistor

2008-09-24, 01:53 AM

@OP

Your failure as a DM has very little to with Oots.

You don't have to agree with the parallel. But if you think that authors don't have plots blow out of control, then you're very wrong. I don't think Rich intended this side adventure to eat through this much real time. I think he merely underestimated the task he had placed before himself. If he did decide that he wanted this side adventure to encompass an entire book, well, I think he made a poor decision. There are like minded people responding here, as well as those that don't think the same. I am not alone in my opinion, and the readership is threatened.

But I did not "fail" as a DM. I made one mistake that caused a plot blowout. It was a major mistake on my part, to be sure, but the story continued eventually, since no one wanted to see the main plot abandoned. Considering the story might have continued for another two years, I have to say I was far more successful than I originally anticipated.

Having said that, as DM, you should have changed your main plot so that the PCs actions had relevance instead of letting them accomplish jack all. You should have altered the plot instead of yelling at them months later for not accomplishing anything.

Who said anything about yelling? And since the campaign ran more than two years (ending only because I moved a 4.5 hour drive away), don't you think the players had to be in general satisfied with the campaign as a whole? If I acted the way you suggest I did, then I wouldn't have lasted a month as a DM.

Once I had determined that everyone was disappointed, we all sat down at the table and discussed the situation. I presented various options on how to get out of the situation. The characters could abandon the side quest, and take the consequences. I could just write a conclusion for them, and move on the very next week. Or, I could help them through the planning necessary to solve the quest. They decided to take choice 3, which is why it still took 3 months to complete, but it was three months of solid action, in a desperate run through an enemy stronghold, so as excitement goes, it certainly had that. I basically only pointed out what they all knew, but thought was too scary and over their heads: they needed to hit the most obviously dangerous place. That's part of why it went so long. (The other part being that I underestimated the actual time to solve the problem once they got going. I thought 3 months max, but 6 months was more reasonable.) They were afraid of doing what needed to be done because of the obvious danger, and so kept avoiding the one attack that could have ended the plot and instead nibbled at the edges of the problem.

And you're also wrong about PC irrelevance. The PC's actions had great relevance, but only to those their nibbling aided. Their actions did not address the resolution of the side plot for many months, but they did perform many feats that helped people -- rescuing slaves, destroying facilities, and the like. There is a difference between being relevant and solving the actual plot. You make it sound like the players sat at the table week after week with their characters lodged in an Inn, drinking beer waiting for the plot to resolve itself. No, they did things, but they did things that really didn't directly face the plot and get them closer to going home. Those little things all helped when they did get to facing the side plot, by providing them allies, equipment, or some sort of aid, so they had some indirect relevance.

But your advocating a main plot rewrite is not something I advocate for Rich, nor for any DM mistake. It causes the players to break from the plot, removing their own actions from the ongoing story,definitely reducing their relevance. There are much better ways of fixing this type of problem.

Dacia Brabant

2008-09-24, 08:02 AM

What could the characters have done? You're not thinking like an author: you're thinking like a player. Burlew controls what Cloister does, for instance. By not having it permanent for a year, the moment Haley left AC, V detects her, and Elan's party can head toward her, abandoning the Hinjo-Kubota side plot entirely. Aw, that doesn't give you a conclusion? Shucks, read about it in the papers. But it does the job, and shortens the side adventure. When you've caused a problem like I did, and you need to return to what the audience wants to see, sometimes you need to not write what you want to write.

Ironically, 595 (it came out the day after my OP) seems to begin to address this situation. The Giant pretends to add another roadblock and annihilates it himself, instantly and arbitrarily. He's pointing out that the roadblocks were put there by him and are solved by him at his own discretion. That's one difference between my problem and his: he doesn't have other people to convince to solve the problems, whereas I had four players that needed to be convinced to do things they hadn't thought of, or thought were beyond their characters. Burlew can, simply and arbitrarily, annihilate every roadblock. So the side quest continues at his discretion, as does the main plot (or does not, as is the current situation).

I thought about this for a while and realized what you've been missing is the chain of narrative causality that Rich had set up at the beginning of the arc.

In 503 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html), right after the the wedding of the Katos sets the scene, we see already what the sources of conflict will be--Kubota's scheming to kill Hinjo and his supporters, and the beginning of Therkla's inner conflict between duty to Kubota and enfatuation with Elan (which becomes overt just a few comics later). Then the comics right after that, 504 and 505, establish the new motivations for Vaarsuvius--obsession with relocating Haley/overcoming the magical obstacles put in his/her way, and near-total disinterest with the goings-on of the fleet, i.e. with the side plot.

Given this set up, it's logical the story would go where it did: Elan had to be given reasons to care about Therkla (see Orc Island and Devil's Island scenes) for her to be sympathetic when her inner conflict boiled over and choices had to be made with them and Kubota, who had to seriously make his play at some point and attacking the two new nobles as part of it just brings things back full circle to his complaint in 503.

Likewise V had to continue to be thwarted by the Cloister (and his/her own pride), and pestered by the lesser problems of the fleet, in order to be driven over the edge--this is why your solution, a fair one if this were a game and not a story, doesn't work by the way. Mr. Burlew clearly wanted V to undergo a dramatic character change toward evil, which he wouldn't be able to do if the character were being roleplayed by someone else, and the roadblocks set up for him allowed for that to happen in a way that makes sense.

Interesting enough you hit on this fact above, that he is in control of the story, but I disagree with you that Mr. Burlew just set these things up and knocked them down on a purely arbitrary basis. There is, at least to me, a clear logical progression of events here in this arc from beginning to end.

Could it have been done within the A-plot instead? Maybe, I mean Haley did get her speech back and she and Elan finally got together within the context of the save-the-world thing, but only loosely within that context--recall that whole deviation to Cliffport, all the complications it introduced and its eventual resolution, was a side quest and had nothing to do with defeating the Snarl, as so humorously pointed out here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html), and took 64 strips (336-400) to resolve. The Elan-Therkla-Kubota side story is maybe half that long (keeping in mind we're splitting time between four different groups) and is as much within the context of the main plot as Cliffport was.

tl;dr version: plot development important, character development also important, and both follow a logical progression that may not always be linear with each other.

Kreistor

2008-09-24, 09:19 AM

I thought about this for a while and realized what you've been missing is the chain of narrative causality that Rich had set up at the beginning of the arc.

What makes you think I didn't understand that. You quoted me:

When you've caused a problem like I did, and you need to return to what the audience wants to see, sometimes you need to not write what you want to write.

Rich had all the best intentions setting all of that up. But it is a roadblock. It was also unnecessary. Whatever change it may (or may not) inspire in Elan could have been done another way. Modern TV, for instance, learned a valuable lesson from Scooby Doo, which got solidified in Star Trek: TNG. Two stories occuring simultaneously keps the audience from getting bored, and raises tension in the main plot. In SD, typically Thelma, Fred, and Daphne go one way, while Scooby and Shaggy go another. The first party solves the plot, while the other pair provide comic relief. In STTNG, usually one member of the crew had a difficulty of some sort while the entire crew worked on the main plot. Elan could easily have had his little Therkla thing simultaneous with the main plot. It's not like Rich hasn't done that before, specifically with Elan (imprisonment) and Haley (kidnapped during assault on first gate).

What you're calling "narrative causality" I am calling roadblocks. THey are the same thing. Burlew creates the problems and solves them. He is not required to create any one problem in any one way: he defines the parameters of the problem himself.

Given this set up, it's logical the story would go where it did:

No kidding. Didn't I say I didn't have an easy solution for him?

Likewise V had to continue to be thwarted by the Cloister (and his/her own pride),

Again, another roadblock created by Rich that could have had a different definition that shortened the number of strips spent solving it. Rich wrote himself into this corner: no one else placed these restrictions on the situation. Cloister isn't in any DnD book I know of: epic spells are very much left to the DM.

Interesting enough you hit on this fact above, that he is in control of the story, but I disagree with you that Mr. Burlew just set these things up and knocked them down on a purely arbitrary basis. There is, at least to me, a clear logical progression of events here in this arc from beginning to end.

Again, you are completely ignoring that Rich created the problems in the first place. Again you are thinking like a player, not an author. An author must consider at the time of problem creation that resolution must be possible. He must have some idea of how the characters will overcome a problem before introducing that problem, or he puts himself into a corner. I knew how my party could solve the problem I set before them: I just underestimated the time it would take. If they came up with another solution, well that's great (and maybe reward worthy). If I couldn't solve the problem myself, well, placing it in front of them is just begging to kill the campaign. I think Rich made the same mistake. He underestimated the number of strips it would take to solve the problems he introduced. Either that, or he ddecided to make an entire book out oof it, in which case he underestimated the patience of a portion of his readership. *points above* Note that I am not alone. Maybe not majority, but is it really a good idea to drive away even 1/10th of your audience?

that whole deviation to Cliffport, all the complications it introduced and its eventual resolution, was a side quest and had nothing to do with defeating the Snarl

I believe I stated that I had no problems with the duration of any of the previous side adventures. Others were longer than Cliffport.

The Elan-Therkla-Kubota side story is maybe half that long (keeping in mind we're splitting time between four different groups) and is as much within the context of the main plot as Cliffport was.

And that's the problem. All side adventures and no meat for far too long. I'm not complaining about the comic count of any single side adventure, I'm complaining about them all happening at once with no main plot allowed to develop.

plot development important, character development also important, and both follow a logical progression that may not always be linear with each other.

All character development and no plot makes Jack a dull boy. It's too long since we've had both. That's my point.

Spiky

2008-09-24, 10:12 AM

What you are requesting, the lack of both character and plot development, has been done before. And it is sad.

Watch Highlander: The Source for proof. It's like you wrote the script in this thread.

In this movie there is a band of warriors on a mission to save the world. After watching, we don't know who they are, we don't know how they got together, we don't know how they even travel around the entire planet. We don't know why their final destination exists, or why it took so long for someone to get there. Nothing, just a series of meaningless action scenes and an attempt at a societal message at the end.

Is this really what you want from OOTS? Watch the flick if you haven't, see what your plan looks like on film.

Kaytara

2008-09-24, 11:05 AM

Isn't this just like the 'I feel the comic has really slowed down' thread?

I'm in the camp that loves the current story arcs. For me, the significance and importance of the seemingly irrelevant subplots is very clear: the heroes have to grow up. In order to beat Xykon, they need to be tougher, wiser and more responsible. The current events are a time-out episode - the heroes are out getting more training, not by killing kobolds for XP, but by confronting their issues and coming out on top... hopefully. Barring any Face Heel Turns to the dark side, here is how I suspect the characters will be at the end of this book:
Haley: She'll have matured and learned to accept responsibility and not let her fears beat her down. She's already had the speech arc, she's currently the leader in Roy's absence, she's organized her own resistance, etc.
Elan: Therkla's death may get him to take his abilities seriously and no longer be satisfied with being the spoony bard who can't be expected to effectively contribute in any way.
Vaarsuvius: Hopefully he'll have had his megalomania taken down a notch and learned that sometimes, magic power ISN'T the solution.
Belkar: The incident with the Oracle will have taught him to pay more attention to his long-term self-interest as opposed to immediate gratification. In short, be more cunning and less impulsive. Scary. ^^
Durkon: He doesn't seem to have obvious issues... his was already worked out back in Origins. He could still use having some more trust in his companions, though.
Roy: He'll have learned that all these people are actual reliable comrades and no longer wackos that need to be whipped into submission and that occasionally, he doesn't have to take ALL of the responsibility.

I'm probably completely wrong about this but this is the direction I think the comic is going in...

That said, the events of War and XPs were huge ones; it's only natural that it takes the good guys some time to recuperate.

Alynn

2008-09-24, 11:25 AM

How are you 100% sure that we are on a side plot.

Perhaps, this IS the plot.

Kreistor

2008-09-24, 12:18 PM

Nothing, just a series of meaningless action scenes and an attempt at a societal message at the end.

Is this really what you want from OOTS?

You clearly did not read my posts, if that is your interpretation. Please go back and re-read them in their entirety.

Texas Jedi

2008-09-24, 12:36 PM

You clearly did not read my posts, if that is your interpretation. Please go back and re-read them in their entirety.

He did read them, and I read them and that sums up your point.

You would be satified if the OotS questing Girard's Gate immediatly after the crushing defeat at Azure City. Even though as a group they have to learn to fight together as a well oiled machine (has happened on occasion but very rare) and also learn to trust one another (has with some of the characters). That can't happen if all you are doing is going to the main plot. Side-Plots exist to help tell another side of the story and help develop the characters in a different light other than: go to point A kill Evil Monster got to point B Kill Sub Boss character etc.
That would make for a very very dull story (as mentioned several times in the thread)

Second in comic 120 is when Xykon is defeated the characters go thru side-plots until they find out in comic 292 that Xykon is alive (less undead) and kicking. You could agrue that those 170 strips are a bunch of side-plots that don't really advance the story of killing Xykon. I can safely say that this was the main plot of the story until 292 when they mention that Xykon is hunting down the gates. That is when they start trying to get to the gates which becomes the new focus of the comic.

These so called "Side Plots" start on 500 and continue until today. I start there because that is end of the Roy story in the afterlife because I guess all of the other characters and their stories are just filler for Roy because he is the main protagonist. That is less than 100 comics taken up by these developments. Nevermind, that without a high level cleric Roy doesn't have a way to get back among the living. Nevermind, that the OotS are several hundred miles away from each other and some are blocked by Epic Level spells. Nevermind, that had Roy not died he would have killed Xykon and the story would be over far from when it should have been, and would have been cliched, and unoriginal ending as well.
I think your main problem is that you are unhappy he killed Roy and you think that they (Sapphire Guard, OotS) should have lost at Azure City (without Roy dying) then started out immediatly for Girard's Gate.

Spiky

2008-09-24, 02:03 PM

You clearly did not read my posts, if that is your interpretation. Please go back and re-read them in their entirety.

I did read your posts. Every one fixed more clearly in mind the Highlander flick. Have you watched this particular movie?

Let me be a bit more specific. In the movie there are side points, fights that are not truly related to the main plot other than being in the way. But there is no time spent on them, they suddenly appear and are overcome with no seeming cause and effect. WHY does fight #2 happen, does it have anything at all to do with the plot? In the movie...never explained. (even the actors asked "what the f...")

You are asking for shorter (or fewer) side quests in OOTS, which would end up removing the keys to why they happen in the first place. Fewer would reduce either character development or our understanding of the 'verse. That's why many don't like your proposals in this thread. (I presume)

Lord Seth

2008-09-24, 03:21 PM

I did read your posts. Every one fixed more clearly in mind the Highlander flick. Have you watched this particular movie?

Let me be a bit more specific. In the movie there are side points, fights that are not truly related to the main plot other than being in the way. But there is no time spent on them, they suddenly appear and are overcome with no seeming cause and effect. WHY does fight #2 happen, does it have anything at all to do with the plot? In the movie...never explained. (even the actors asked "what the f...")

You are asking for shorter (or fewer) side quests in OOTS, which would end up removing the keys to why they happen in the first place. Fewer would reduce either character development or our understanding of the 'verse. That's why many don't like your proposals in this thread. (I presume)Movies are a different medium, though; side plots are almost always a no-no. With few exceptions, every scene should advance the plot or reveal character, to quote Kurt Vonnegut (he was referring to literature, I think it applies to movies even more). In the case of a comedy, of course, you can have a scene whose entire point is to make jokes. Side plots work a lot better in books or comics as long as you don't overuse them. In movies, they're almost always a mistake, as they don't move the plot forward, which is important in a movie.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with side plots in OOTS, my main problem is so much time is currently being spent on them. At least when we had the Wacky Wayside Tribe with the bandits, the comic hadn't really started up its Myth Arc yet.

Kreistor

2008-09-24, 03:38 PM

I did read your posts.

No, you passed your eyes over them. You read the bits you wanted to read, letting your mind forget the parts that don't agree with your conclusion.

Specifically:

I didn't complain about the earlier side adventures. They were managable in length. The current one is simply far too long to count as a side adventure anymore.

Where I state that I am not complaining about side plots in general, only this one in particular. You can find the same restated in another post.

Let me reiterate: I am not complaining about side adventures, only this particular excessively long group of simultaneously unresolved side adventures. It took over a year for me to finally get vocal on this one: obviously I have a certain amount of patience.

Texas Jedi

2008-09-24, 04:07 PM

No, you passed your eyes over them. You read the bits you wanted to read, letting your mind forget the parts that don't agree with your conclusion.

Specifically:

Where I state that I am not complaining about side plots in general, only this one in particular. You can find the same restated in another post.

Let me reiterate: I am not complaining about side adventures, only this particular excessively long group of simultaneously unresolved side adventures. It took over a year for me to finally get vocal on this one: obviously I have a certain amount of patience.

But this side plot has been going on for only 95 strips. The other side plot took well over 170 strips to finish. Why is this one suddenly wrong even though it is almost half the length?

The only difference is that the group is split and must work to get reunited. That is why I think you have a problem. I think you are mad that they got split in the first place. Once they got split up it would be stupid of the author not write about how they got reunited. The author has always resolved a small issue before moving to the next group (the Orc Island, the Resistance, the Oracle) he is not leaving anything hanging when he switches.

EDIT: I think that we will see a switch to Haley, and Celia's group now. This will lead to a bunch of problems with the thieves guild. I, unlike many on this thread believe that Roy will not be brought back to life for at least 20-30 strips or so. The action will not be resolved that quickly, because there is to many loose threads left to sew into the story.

TentsOnFire

2008-09-24, 04:24 PM

I actually think he may be trying to fix it, personally.

Because for quite a while now, it's been all about the stuff the fleet faces with Kubota (can't remember if that's how it's spelled... :P) and that got old when he was explaining how he was off the hook about the assassins at the wedding reception. By having V kill him, he's destroyed what, if Kubota had survived, could easily have made for another fifty to one hundred strips.

But I really don't blame him for dragging it on. I mean, I've had epic-sized roleplays with a clear goal, and I personally as game master had a tendency to drag it out, to make it last longer because it was enjoyable. I mean, The Giant seems like a person with a plan in mind, but I'm sure he enjoys making these strips. A long sidequest is a sure-fire way to extend the life of any comic or roleplay or D&D game.

I'm just gonna be patient. Now that Kubota's dead, I think it's gonna speed up a bit.

David Argall

2008-09-24, 06:35 PM

in comic 120 is when Xykon is defeated the characters go thru side-plots until they find out in comic 292 that Xykon is alive (less undead) and kicking. You could agrue that those 170 strips are a bunch of side-plots that don't really advance the story of killing Xykon.
I would submit you are misunderstanding what a side-plot is. While these 170 strips do contain side-plots, the plot is rather obviously advanced during this period.
Essentially in a side-plot, the heros end up effectively where they started. They may have gained magic, treasure and XP, but they aren't really any closer to the goal. 134-199 is a proper side-quest. The party gets a lot of treasure and such, but is no closer to Xykon. But when Miko appears, they are put on the plot road to find Xykon. Now we can argue that some of what follows is also other side-plots, but when Shojo starts giving plot exposition, we are obviously in full plot mode. So the side-plot ends long before 292.
The other major completed side-plot is LG, which starts at 336 and ends at 400. While Haley gets her boy, and her voice back, the party is not noticeable closer to Xykon [except for those strips where the actions cuts to Xykon.]
So now the current side-plot will presumably end with the party re-united, and thus not much different from where they were back in 424. We might want to limit this to the reuniting the party, but that starts no later than
485, and so the current side-plot is by far the longest in the story to date, and likely to last a good deal longer.

These so called "Side Plots" start on 500 and continue until today. I start there because that is end of the Roy story in the afterlife because I guess all of the other characters and their stories are just filler for Roy because he is the main protagonist.
The fact that attention is focused on other than the main character does not make something a side-plot. And the main character is entirely able to take part in side-plots, which is what Roy is doing in the afterlife. 485-500 may be a good read, but Roy gets no closer at all to the goal. Pure side-plot.

Theodoriph

2008-09-24, 07:21 PM

I would submit you are misunderstanding what a side-plot is. While these 170 strips do contain side-plots, the plot is rather obviously advanced during this period.
Essentially in a side-plot, the heros end up effectively where they started. They may have gained magic, treasure and XP, but they aren't really any closer to the goal. 134-199 is a proper side-quest. The party gets a lot of treasure and such, but is no closer to Xykon. But when Miko appears, they are put on the plot road to find Xykon. Now we can argue that some of what follows is also other side-plots, but when Shojo starts giving plot exposition, we are obviously in full plot mode. So the side-plot ends long before 292.
The other major completed side-plot is LG, which starts at 336 and ends at 400. While Haley gets her boy, and her voice back, the party is not noticeable closer to Xykon [except for those strips where the actions cuts to Xykon.]
So now the current side-plot will presumably end with the party re-united, and thus not much different from where they were back in 424. We might want to limit this to the reuniting the party, but that starts no later than
485, and so the current side-plot is by far the longest in the story to date, and likely to last a good deal longer.

The fact that attention is focused on other than the main character does not make something a side-plot. And the main character is entirely able to take part in side-plots, which is what Roy is doing in the afterlife. 485-500 may be a good read, but Roy gets no closer at all to the goal. Pure side-plot.

I'd disagree. The trip to greysky city and the subsequent (and ongoing) adventure there allowed Haley to make enough gold to raise Roy from the dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). The main plot is furthered by Roy being resurrected. It's a necessity. So Haley has been advancing the main plot.

Makino

2008-09-24, 09:02 PM

Kreistor,

I am in complete agreement with everything you said.

I too, and pretty much everyone I know who reads this comic(roughly 20 odd people) also feel as you do, that this little side story is taking FAR too long. Many of us thought this side event would be about 3 months tops, and Roy would be back, the OotS would be reunited and things would be back under way again. I check back only to see if the story has gotten back on track just like you.

Unfortunately, many of the people I knew who read this comic have given up and stopped reading altogether. What was once a well focused story about a group adventurers against Xykon and his evil schemes has turned into a meandering tale of individuals scattered across the world, a tangle of subplots, more and more NPCs being introduced, and no end in sight! I bet if we were to look at the number of readers of OotS, we would find that the overall readership has declined as well.

Comic 595 has given me hope that maybe, just maybe, things are finally getting back on track.

Nastysasquatch

2008-09-24, 10:04 PM

ill be honest. i didn't read all the posts on here because after the second page they got ridiculous and a waste of time.

i just want to say that the Giant has officially achieved the Robert Jordan factor with OoTS. too many plotlines to wrap up in too little time. hopefully he wont fulfill the factor and die before he finishes.

WhitemageofDOOM

2008-09-24, 10:58 PM

gurren lagann goes from hole in the ground nobodies trying to reach the surface to winning intergalactic war in 26 episodes. All stories should be judged by it's perfect pacing standards.

OotS is clearly suffering from too much fat, rich should have trimmed it.

The Hop Goblin

2008-09-25, 04:51 PM

What was once a well focused story about a group adventurers against Xykon and his evil schemes has turned into a meandering tale of individuals scattered across the world, a tangle of subplots, more and more NPCs being introduced, and no end in sight!

Lord of the Rings, anyone? Star Wars? A Song of Ice and Fire? Anything more complex than a Saturday morning cartoon? You are frustrated because the thing you want and expect (Roy's return) isn't happening yet.

We get that, thanks.

The fact is we are in the middle of the series. In the middle of any series (Empire Strikes Back, Two Towers, ASoIaF, etc) things are going to be a little slower - perhaps more in depth - and yes things aren't happy-happy-joy-joy for the group. Gandalf (Roy) will come back at the end of the middle of the series. It's pretty standard for epics, which OOTS has turned into.

I'm a fan of people who are frustrated with the pace of the comic to take a hike for a few months/years until such a time that the comic is up to their high standards; or, of course, creating a comic that fits their needs and desires rather than 'backseat driving'.

Or maybe, for giggles, Giant should just appease everyone who doesn't like his comic, throw out everything he has written or planned. Have Roy magically come back in the next issue, with Xykon crumbling away for no reason, Belkar is good, and V isn't Lichy, Therkala comes back and so does Miko, and OOTS shares a big group hug with a fat "The End" for the last pannel.

Wouldn't blame him a bit.

Unfortunately, many of the people I knew who read this comic have given up and stopped reading altogether.

Doesn't break my heart any.

Lord Seth

2008-09-25, 04:59 PM

I'd disagree. The trip to greysky city and the subsequent (and ongoing) adventure there allowed Haley to make enough gold to raise Roy from the dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). The main plot is furthered by Roy being resurrected. It's a necessity. So Haley has been advancing the main plot.No, it's still a side plot, because it advancing the resurrection of Roy is just advancing the return to the main plot.

There's been some good stuff in the strip since Roy died, but it could've all been compressed considerably.

David Argall

2008-09-25, 05:18 PM

I'd disagree. The trip to greysky city and the subsequent (and ongoing) adventure there allowed Haley to make enough gold to raise Roy from the dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). The main plot is furthered by Roy being resurrected. It's a necessity. So Haley has been advancing the main plot.

They successfully raise Roy, and they are [partway] back to where they were at 430. So no, this entire book is pretty much just a side plot.

Now of course, that does not mean undesirable. Advancing the plot means getting closer to ending the story, and I have no eagerness to run out of OOTS. So why should I object to detours? It's still good stuff.

Kaytara

2008-09-27, 05:16 AM

No, it's still a side plot, because it advancing the resurrection of Roy is just advancing the return to the main plot.

That would imply that Roy's death was not part of the main plot, if resurrecting him isn't.

But it IS. Azure City and the Order suffered a major defeat and a LOT of damage during a battle that was directly tied to the main plot. They lost the battle. Ergo, recovering from the battle is also directly tied to the main plot. The characters are working on it to the best of their abilities. True, some aren't contributing as much as they could, but we don't penalise people for ineffectiveness. :P

As for the Kubota arc, would you prefer if the Giant had just told us "Durkon, Elan and Vaarsuvius spent six months trying to contact Haley. Finally, <upcoming plot twist> happened."?
Instead, we have some events thrown in that ultimately result in some tasty character development. What's bad about character development?

Baelzar

2008-09-27, 09:14 AM

So, it is this simple. I am bored of the OOTS. Yes, I still read it, but only because I am waiting for the main plot to continue.Stop reading the web comic, and buy the compilations when they come out. The whole story arc in a handy book.

Problem solved!

Spiky

2008-09-27, 11:30 PM

No, you passed your eyes over them. You read the bits you wanted to read, letting your mind forget the parts that don't agree with your conclusion.

*sigh* You may want to try more than passing your eyes over the forum rules. Also, don't tell me you know more about me than I do. Makes you look stupid and pisses me off.

Where I state that I am not complaining about side plots in general, only this one in particular. You can find the same restated in another post.

Let me reiterate: I am not complaining about side adventures, only this particular excessively long group of simultaneously unresolved side adventures. It took over a year for me to finally get vocal on this one: obviously I have a certain amount of patience.

Yawn. This still isn't a side plot, no matter how many times you say it is. It is the main plot. Quick recap:

Good guys fight bad guys. <<---main plot
Bad guys win. <<---main plot
Good guys lose so bad, they get scattered. <<---main plot

Hey look, that's still where we are.

nowiwantmydmg

2008-09-28, 12:14 AM

I don't mind the sideplot any, sure it would be nice to get back to the "main plot" but these sideplots have added lots of character development. It certainly reads more realistic and more like a novel the current way as well.

Kreistor

2008-09-28, 12:20 AM

Quick recap:

Good guys fight bad guys. <<---main plot
Bad guys win. <<---main plot
Good guys lose so bad, they get scattered. <<---main plot

Hey look, that's still where we are.

Right. So there has been no main plot development in over 100 strips. That makes this series irrelevant to the main plot.

The Hinjo-Kubota plot does not involve the gates; therefore, it is not main plot. Can Elan and Haley's groups meet up without AC being saved? Yes.

If Roy is not turned into a golem, can Haley reunite with Elan? Yes.

Let me expand...

A plot is, in essence, the problems introduced by something, typically these problems are motivated by an individual or an organization with a desired result (ie. "We're plotting to take over the world," says the main villain). The main plot in OotS is Xykon's attempt to control a gate -- his plot is a series of actions intended to control a gate so he control the Snarl and use him to take over the world. The OotS attempts to thwart the elements of that plan, also known as plot.

Kubota introduces a hindrance to solving Xykon's plot (specifically, he threatens the location that Elan is currently occupying by threatening the person Elan is working for), but since it is not introduced by Xykon as an attempt to control a gate, it isn't main plot. (If Xykon were supporting Kubota in some way, then it may be main plot.) Your definition of plot suggests that any hindrance that slows the protagonists is a main plot element. Look at it this way: if the main character twists an ankle sliding down a rock face, does that make the trek to find a doctor a main plot element? No, the element is a random problem caused by an accident of nature, not the result of a plot by the antagonist. Kubota's plot is no different from a randomly introduced problem: he is a hindrance to progression, but no more part of Xykon's plot than that twisted ankle.

If it is demonstrated that Kubota's plots needed to be stopped in order for Elan to reach Haley, then yes, it would be main plot since Kubota would be added as a primary antagonist fater the same goal as the primary antagonist (he in essence becomes another player with goals involving the main plot); however, Elan's party could have left the boats at any city, and the only change would have been how Elan and Haley met, not if they would meet. The only reason for staying with the boats was so that Haley had some way of tracking Elan et al. Elan and co could search for Haley from anywhere using their current techniques: location is irrelevant to V's efforts.

Even if the Giant were to bring everything together in some way that demonstrates relevance to main plot, my point is that he's too late. It is clear from otehr responders that many people are bored with the current situation. No matter how creatively it resolves in the future, we are bored right now. The Giant has already made his mistake, and he's lost reader interest. When the OotS reunites we will all cheer, but we won't care how they reunite. We will celebrate the return of the main plot, not the creativity of the Giant's efforts in resolving this tired situation. So whether or not these problems prove to main plot isn't important to us anymore. It needed to be demonstrated months ago. Proof of main plot relevance in two months won't change our boredom now.

Lowkey

2008-09-28, 12:30 AM

I like how people are assuming what is a side plot or main plot because they think they know what the main plot is. Most are operating under the assumption that the main story is the defeat of Xykon. But is it? Maybe the story to to chronicle the growth and development of a specific character, with the defeating the villain plot just there as backdrop to set the other plot theme by. For example, take the original Dragonlance trilogy, where according to the author's commentary, the whole war of the Lance is not actually the point, but the emotional growth and development of the characters.

Is this the story of defeating Xykon and saving the world, or is this the story of the Order of the Stick? If its the latter there have been no side plots, but everything has been dedicated to exploring the characters.

Kreistor

2008-09-28, 07:59 AM

Is this the story of defeating Xykon and saving the world, or is this the story of the Order of the Stick? If its the latter there have been no side plots, but everything has been dedicated to exploring the characters.

And if it's the latter, then the Giant is going to lose some of his readership. If we don't voice our concerns and he loses readers without knowing why, don't you think he'll be concerned?

I'm Canadian, and we're somewhat different in culture from Americans. Restaurant owners up here have a concern with losing diners. Very seldom will a Canadian complain; normally, when we stop eating at a place, we don't complain because we think it's impolite. The restaurant owners hate this because they can't fix what they don't know is a problem.

Same thing here. If you're right, and in the Giant's mind any activity by the OotS is main plot, then he's losing readers. We must voice our concerns so that the Giant can decide if he wants a smaller readership based on current plans, or change his plans to keep a larger readership. I'm probably right in thinking the Giant wants as large a readership as possible.

You see, if he tries to ensure this doesn't happen again, he will not lose those people that like whatever he does, regardless. But if he does this again, he loses us. It won't hurt him not to do it again, and you'll never know that he changed, because you don't know what he thinks. So, he can fix what is driving us away and still keep you, or he can not fix it and lose us.

It's a no brainer, really.

Lira

2008-09-28, 10:06 AM

I'm Canadian, and we're somewhat different in culture from Americans. Restaurant owners up here have a concern with losing diners. Very seldom will a Canadian complain; normally, when we stop eating at a place, we don't complain because we think it's impolite. The restaurant owners hate this because they can't fix what they don't know is a problem.Good gods.... I don't know where to begin here. :smallsigh:

First, you may be Canadian too, but don't you dare stereotype my country.

If you think Canadians don't complain often, then you clearly need to get out of the house more.

As for the rest of your post, and your opinion, it can all be summed up as Your Mileage May Vary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourMileageMayVary). Different people like different things, and while you and some other readers may not be happy with what's been happening, readers like me are entirely happy. Rich has shown he's aware that he can't please everyone. So don't expect him to change it all because of you. Because he won't. He has a plan for the plot, and it'll all work out eventually.

Lowkey

2008-09-28, 12:42 PM

And if it's the latter, then the Giant is going to lose some of his readership. If we don't voice our concerns and he loses readers without knowing why, don't you think he'll be concerned?Do you really think the people here make up even a fraction of a percent of his total readership? I doubt it. And you can't even get an agreement here. Given the extremely small sample size that is contesting this, it would be rather foolish of him to be concerned.

I'm Canadian, and we're somewhat different in culture from Americans.Wow, glad to see being condescending and insulting to an group of people for being born somewhere is acceptable under the no flaming rule. I feel like I'm Parson trying to figure out how to swear.

Restaurant owners up here have a concern with losing diners. Very seldom will a Canadian complain; normally, when we stop eating at a place, we don't complain because we think it's impolite. The restaurant owners hate this because they can't fix what they don't know is a problem.

Same thing here. If you're right, and in the Giant's mind any activity by the OotS is main plot, then he's losing readers. We must voice our concerns so that the Giant can decide if he wants a smaller readership based on current plans, or change his plans to keep a larger readership. I'm probably right in thinking the Giant wants as large a readership as possible.

You see, if he tries to ensure this doesn't happen again, he will not lose those people that like whatever he does, regardless. But if he does this again, he loses us. It won't hurt him not to do it again, and you'll never know that he changed, because you don't know what he thinks. So, he can fix what is driving us away and still keep you, or he can not fix it and lose us.

It's a no brainer, really.Yeah, no. The people who complain represent an absolutely tiny fraction of his readership. It's always bad to lose customers, but the amount being lost is negligible, so there is no reason to be concerned. This is of course assuming that the people will actually leave instead of pulling a Trekkie and keep tuning in just to keep talking about ho much they dislike what Paramount/Giant is doing.

To go with another webcomic example, several years ago Scott Kurtz of PvP had some issues with his forum. The people there would keep complaining about everything. Scott, having a fiery disposition, responded in kind. So the forum broke away, smugly convinced that they would show Scott a lesson, that upsetting some 3,000 customers was foolish.

Scott Kurtz is one of the most successful webcomic artists out there today. And those 3000 some complainers? They still regularly click the link to complain about what is going on in today's strip.

Excal

2008-09-28, 12:56 PM

Honestly, while I can appreciate your views on the matter, I do have to disagree with your apparent belief that popularity = quality. So far as I can tell, the main purpose of these arcs have been to focus on the character development of Elan, V, Haley, and potentially Belkar. And for Elan and V, their development needs the absence of Haley and Roy, both of whom they respect enough to actually listen and defer to. Haley at least would likely be moving along her path towards greater responsibility if she weren't separated from the rest of the group, but her growth wouldn't be as strong or as fast if she were with experienced adventurers willing to defer to her and a strong ally to give her orders as it is with her leading a shadow organisation and leading a sociopath and an inexperienced adventurer. In short, I suspect the main reason for this long separation is to encourage the characters to change in order to be who they need to be in order to hold their own when they meet Xykon at Girard's Gate.

Now, as to the discussion of the main plot and whether we're on it. I can see the arguments for why Elan and Durkon are not. However, the argument presented that simply getting back to where they were at the beginning of the Azure War is not plot advancement is silly. Simply put, around Act 2 or 3, we need to be shown that the villain is a threat who needs to be taken seriously, and that often means that the heros lose. And a loss isn't very credible if there isn't any setback from the loss. That is the price of having a competent villain. To suggest that recovering from that price is not plot advancement is silly, because it's still progress along that same goal.

And, by that standard, we didn't even pay attention to Haley until she was starting back on the main plot. We skipped over all of her time among the resistance, and joined her on the run which leads to Celia being summoned, which leads to her starting the quest to get Roy rezzed and reunite the party. That she's been having setbacks just goes to show that the task isn't especially easy with the resources she's been given.

As for Elan and the ships? Those would be a side plot, though V's involvement with them is not as he has been fixated from the very beginning on a) finding Haley and reuniting the party, and b) keeping the ship he's on from sinking.

As for the pacing, I honestly don't have any problems with it. Things may be dragging on, but part of it is that the two stories are being told side by side which lengthens the amount of time it will take for both stories to be told. As well, the comparison to WoT also feels somewhat superficial. After all, Perrin's PoV just didn't add anything for the longest time, and Rich has yet to go to anyone too minor in this interlude. In fact, he's limited himself to Roy, Haley, Elan, and the antagonists. So, even the sprawl of PoVs hasn't been too pronounced.

Kreistor

2008-09-28, 04:03 PM

Good gods.... I don't know where to begin here. :smallsigh:

First, you may be Canadian too, but don't you dare stereotype my country.

If you think Canadians don't complain often, then you clearly need to get out of the house more.

Actually, that statement came direct from a restaurant owner: I did a little market research for him as a result of that conversation. It is a serious problem for the Canadian restaurant industry. Go ask an owner yourself, if you have never discussed the issue. If you're Canadian, you won't have a problem finding a restaurant nearby to visit and talk to the owner. My friend is an owner of a Cora's in a major city (sorry, won't tell you which one for obvious reasons). Anyone can check this simply by cracking open a phone book and making a couple calls.

As for the rest of your post, and your opinion, it can all be summed up as Your Mileage May Vary (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YourMileageMayVary). Different people like different things, and while you and some other readers may not be happy with what's been happening, readers like me are entirely happy. Rich has shown he's aware that he can't please everyone. So don't expect him to change it all because of you. Because he won't. He has a plan for the plot, and it'll all work out eventually.

Expect? I don't expect anything. But don't be fooled to think that complaints do not result in actions by authors. Robert Jordan has already been cited as a notable example. We'll never know if my words succeeded or failed.

As for Scott Kurtz, well, I do read PvP Online. It sounds like he had a completely different problem. The negative contingent drowned out the positive to the point they couldn't be heard, skewing the feedback on the forum. That's not what's happening here. There's one thread with one specific complaint: comparing this to Kurtz's problem is very much an exaggeration. I'm not demanding immediate action: in fact I stated in the first post that I would continue reading, regardless of what the Giant writes. There are no threats here, and no demands. Only a hope that the Giant will recognize that his current arc has driven more than one very old reader to boredom: that his indicator of how many readers he has is not an indication of pleasure with the current strip.

doliest

2008-09-28, 04:10 PM

Actually, that statement came direct from a restaurant owner: I did a little market research for him as a result of that conversation. It is a serious problem for the Canadian restaurant industry. Go ask an owner yourself, if you have never discussed the issue. If you're Canadian, you won't have a problem finding a restaurant nearby to visit and talk to the owner. My friend is an owner of a Cora's in a major city (sorry, won't tell you which one for obvious reasons). Anyone can check this simply by cracking open a phone book and making a couple calls.

Expect? I don't expect anything. But don't be fooled to think that complaints do not result in actions by authors. Robert Jordan has already been cited as a notable example. We'll never know if my words succeeded or failed.

As for Scott Kurtz, well, I do read PvP Online. It sounds like he had a completely different problem. The negative contingent drowned out the positive to the point they couldn't be heard, skewing the feedback on the forum. That's not what's happening here. There's one thread with one specific complaint: comparing this to Kurtz's problem is very much an exaggeration. I'm not demanding immediate action: in fact I stated in the first post that I would continue reading, regardless of what the Giant writes. There are no threats here, and no demands. Only a hope that the Giant will recognize that his current arc has driven more than one very old reader to boredom: that his indicator of how many readers he has is not an indication of pleasure with the current strip.

The main problem is that as you have stated some people will leave if it doesn't get fixed, but your opinion is a minority, while some will leave if the 'problem' is fixed as you have described and that group may outnumber you, and if that is true, it's better to alienate the smaller group.

The Hop Goblin

2008-09-28, 04:52 PM

And if it's the latter, then the Giant is going to lose some of his readership. If we don't voice our concerns and he loses readers without knowing why, don't you think he'll be concerned?

Have you ever heard of the "Vocal Minority"? It's a minority that appears to be the majority because they complain the loudest. The problem is that you feel that your opinion, in all it's negative glory, is more important than anyone who likes the comic as is; further more - more important than the author's plans. SCRUBBED.

I'm Canadian, and we're somewhat different in culture from Americans. Restaurant owners up here have a concern with losing diners. Very seldom will a Canadian complain; normally, when we stop eating at a place, we don't complain because we think it's impolite. The restaurant owners hate this because they can't fix what they don't know is a problem.

Strange, I rarely complain at a resturant, and I'm an American. Kinda sucks when you attempt to stereotype SCRUBBED against your neighbors to the south and fail. Heres another one - If I stop going to a resturant, I'm pretty sure that most likely the resturant will not miss my few dollars. There are plenty of people who like it still - I grow up and move on instead of snivveling and holding a little Ghandi-session in attempt to force change (change you can count on!). Trying to act like my continued patronage of an establishment (or in this case, webcomic) is the MOST important thing for the proprieter to worry about is kind of silly.

Same thing here. If you're right, and in the Giant's mind any activity by the OotS is main plot, then he's losing readers. We must voice our concerns so that the Giant can decide if he wants a smaller readership based on current plans, or change his plans to keep a larger readership. I'm probably right in thinking the Giant wants as large a readership as possible.

You see, if he tries to ensure this doesn't happen again, he will not lose those people that like whatever he does, regardless. But if he does this again, he loses us. It won't hurt him not to do it again, and you'll never know that he changed, because you don't know what he thinks. So, he can fix what is driving us away and still keep you, or he can not fix it and lose us.

You obviously don't understand artists, or the artistic process. You have a consumerist point of view that feels that the author somehow owes you something. He doesn't. Even if you were paying for his product (which odds are, you aren't), he still doesn't owe anything to you. It was your choice to 'tune in' to his vision. As an artist (and before any of you start crying that he's an author, not an artist - it's the same thing in this regard), he owes it to himself to stay true to his artistic vision. If he starts buckling under fan-pressure to do nothing but fan-service comics, then he's compromised himself as an artist, and compromised any vision for a story.

It's a no brainer, really.

I agree - it is a no brainer.

There's a disturbing trend on fan-boards of any medium (TV shows, Film, Webcomics, etc), a kind of "I'm taking all my marbles and going home!" attitude. Attempting to (laughably) threaten and/or blackmail the author/artist into doing what you want using potential loss of their readership. This sort of "Do this and I'll be your best friend" attitude might work for a webcomic just starting up, with under 100 readers; but this is Order of the Stick here. I think it places in the top 20 of 1000 webcomics?

I understand, it's trendy to badmouth something popular, and it's never 'cool' to give respect to an author or artist for their hard work, but buck the trend.

Heres a comparable situation: I was a part of a D&D group about 3 years ago, or so. I wasn't enjoying the game as my goal was Roleplaying, theirs was Roll-Playing (Samurai should never-EVER say "Dude, WTF is up":smallwink:). So what did I do? Did I threaten the group, demanding it change or lose my continued membership? How silly and childish. I left on good terms, and sought out a group that fit my needs. And when I did not find one, I *Gasp* made one of my own. And wouldn't you know it, that group is still going today, and very successful? That other group, the power-gamers? They continued to be happy with their rollplaying; with an adult, non-egocentric decision - there ended up being two D&D groups that did their own thing. Everyone is happy, nobody whines and crys, pouts and threatens.

The Lesson? If you don't like it, find another, or make your own. In the end the fans of OOTS who respect the author and are patient enough to follow his vision in his time will be happy; and those who aren't happy can go find something that satisfies them more.

To quote the venerable SPOD: You not reading the comic isn't going to make it any less awesome for the rest of us.

Silfir

2008-09-28, 04:56 PM

SCRUBBED. We are not here to learn "lessons" from you.

The comic is still funny, interesting to read, and all that. But let's be honest - everyone wants the Order back by now. The plot demands for them to be seperated for a while - yeah, I get that. But it's understandable if people are losing patience - they remember how the comic was when the Order was still together, and somehow it just had something then it now hasn't had for quite some time. There's still lots of humor in OotS, but it's severly lacking in actual Order of the Stick - it's all Epic Plot at the moment, has been for a very long time, and not everyone has to like that.

The Hop Goblin

2008-09-28, 05:13 PM

it's all Epic Plot at the moment, has been for a very long time, and not everyone has to like that.

Never did I say that everyone has to like it - but when it gets so overwhelming in your life that you absolutely must complain voraciously as if it is the most important thing in your life; then maybe you should find something else to your taste, rather than demanding that everyone else compromise to fit your needs.

It's when the "I don't like this; I demand it be changed and who cares what anyone else, Especially the author, think" attitude surfaces that it tends towards the SCRUBBED.

There have been things I didn't care for that has happened, there are others that were great; I for one can be patient and let the man (Rich) say all he needs to say before making judgement. As he is one of the few webcomic artists out there that have broken the 500 strip mark; I am more than willing to give him that amount of respect, rather than sitting over his shoulder and 'backseat driving', like my opinion on what he does means anything.

Odds are, there will never be a time that Rich singles me out and says I'm right, or special, and have experience to deserve to help guide and direct his webcomic. I understand this with the recognition that my single count of readership means only 1 count - and am in no way more important than anyone else. It's a pity that this viewpoint isn't shared by more.

Still, incite people and stir up unrest in the community - and attempt to force Rich to do your bidding. I'd like to see how that works out for you lol.

Forum Staff

2008-09-28, 05:13 PM

doliest

2008-09-28, 05:20 PM

Stop flaming. Stop responding to flames. And, for that matter, stop stereotyping cultures.

Consider this a warning to anyone posting in this thread from now on: Any more personal insults will result in this thread being locked.

Not to insult the forum staff(that isn't sarcasm) but some might intrepret this as evidence that people aren't aloud to criticise OOTS.

The Hop Goblin

2008-09-28, 05:22 PM

Not to insult the forum staff(that isn't sarcasm) but some might intrepret this as evidence that people aren't aloud to criticise OOTS.

Generally they don't care about anything like that, the only time they really clamp down on a subject is criticizing the schedule of the comic. They are attempting to cool down the thread.

doliest

2008-09-28, 05:24 PM

Generally they don't care about anything like that, the only time they really clamp down on a subject is criticizing the schedule of the comic. They are attempting to cool down the thread.

I never said they did, but some like to use that as an arguement when criticising OOTS and seem to try to compare our forums to places like CAD forums.

Forum Staff

2008-09-28, 05:28 PM

Not to insult the forum staff(that isn't sarcasm) but some might intrepret this as evidence that people aren't aloud to criticise OOTS.

All of the points that have been made could have been made without resort to personal insults. This thread has existed for many days before anyone began slighting one another, and only the actual insults will be scrubbed out. And they will be scrubbed out from posts on BOTH sides of the issue, should they occur.

This is a fairly standard warning for threads that have included flaming. Just as we will not lock threads solely because they criticize the site's content, neither will we allow threads to violate our established rules just because they do criticize the site's content.

At any rate, this argument is not relevant to the topic of this thread.

Lissou

2008-09-28, 05:46 PM

So... to advance the discussion, do you still feel the same way, or do you feel there has been some major stuff happening?

And to the OP... I understand what you mean. I really do. I just can't think of any "solution" apart from reading the books and not the online strip. Of course, that is, if you're looking for a "solution" at all. If you're just trying to vent, that's okay too, but I'm not sure how helpful it is to the author, if that's really your goal.

Because... At any single point in the comic have people been complaining about it being too slow. i'm sure the Giant knows a portion of his readers think he's going too slowly. He probably also knows that not all of us feels this way. And he knows the story he wants to tell, and how he wants to get there.
We do have an impact on the story to some extent: the Giant does make some jokes based on stuff said in the forums. But I think it's possibly the only influence we have as readers and fans.

Now, an author can make mistakes. They're a human being, with flaws. But I think for something like that, unfortunately you can only decide whether it was a mistake or not in retrospect. When you have the full picture. When the story arc is complete. Then, you can judge if event A, B, C, D were essential to the story or not. Then, you can judge whether they were handled properly.

Right now, you know you're frustrated, and you wish it could go faster. Well, it's probably a good thing. That means as a graphic novel, it will give some emotion of the struggles they have to go through now that Roy isn't here.
Because you see, webcomic or not, it's going to be published, too. And the archives will be read by people who are not following day-to-day. If the reader, us, can feel what they're supposed to feel only if they've been following the story "real-time", then it's a problem.

Anything you feel, anything we feel, a reader who doesn't have to wait for every page/strip will experience only a small portion of. That reader will read 10 pages in the time it takes us to react to the one page we've just read, the new update, even before we go on to the forum to then discuss it. A lot will be missed, and for instance, Kubota will be killed within seconds of having killed Therkla.
So, the anger we had time to build against Kubota in the week or so between Therkla's and Kubota's death, a new reader will have to feel in a second. And because of that, because we have to feel it all ten times, twenty times more, it's hard.
In a way, it makes it all better, too. I like reading books I like one chapter at a time, then stop until the next day, so that I'm stuck at THIS instant, without the end in sight, wondering what's going to happen next. I really love it. The story's our present for months, it will be present for merely minutes, possibly hours, for the person who reads the compilation book instead.

I could talk about that for way too long, so I'll stop here, but I hope you understand what I meant.
Also, you won't like every story arc. That's normal, and you're allowed to state so, and you're allowed to be disappointed and say so. But until the end, you don't know if there will be a twist, giving sense to everything, you don't know if it's been worthwile or not. I like to think it always is.

SPoD

2008-09-28, 06:01 PM

Same thing here. If you're right, and in the Giant's mind any activity by the OotS is main plot, then he's losing readers. We must voice our concerns so that the Giant can decide if he wants a smaller readership based on current plans, or change his plans to keep a larger readership. I'm probably right in thinking the Giant wants as large a readership as possible.

(Bolding mine.) No, you are actually demonstrably wrong.

I'll let the Giant say it in his own words:

I've got bad news, people: the story is going where the story is going, and no one has the power to influence how I'm going to tell it with threats/promises of stopping reading. If a character so offends you for some reason that you cannot possibly read the strip if she is in it, then stop reading now. Go read another comic that isn't going to ever change from the way it starts out, never grows, never experiments with anything different than the tried-and-true—preferrably one that is terrified to fail or upset even one of its fans.

I suggest Garfield.

Also, don't confuse having the right to express an opinion with having a right to be listened to by me. A lot of people get upset when I don't respond to their suggestions and criticisms, but I have every right to simply ignore them. Maybe you do know what is best for the comic, but you know what? I got this far by trusting my own instincts, and I intend to continue doing exactly that. It's more important to me to be happy with my strip than to satisfy one reader, or a hundred readers, or a thousand readers.

<snip>

Here's the thing: I'm the one who gets to say what the spirit of OOTS is, not you. Not any of you. It's my work, and while I certainly hope it is well-received, I ultimately am creating it the way I am to please my own sensibilities. I simply assume that there are enough people out there who will agree with me to keep me in business. If not, they hey, so be it. OOTS will fail on its own merits.

<snip>

It may be that you're not willing to do adapt, in which case, I wish you luck reading whatever comic is more appropriate to your tastes.

I don't care what people say about OOTS anymore. It's going to continue in the manner in which I choose to create it, indefinitely, even if I lose every single one of my readers eventually and I'm writing it just for me. All criticism falls on deaf ears, not because I believe I am somehow infallible, but because I simply do not fear the consequences of being completely wrong.

Hmmm. Looks like Rich should open a diner in Canada.

The Hop Goblin

2008-09-28, 06:13 PM

SPOD, you have never ceased being my hero. Where do you find these quotes?

I can only say I am happy to see that The Giant has spoken on the matter; irrevocably and to the point.

Huzzah Giant, Huzzah SPOD.

SPoD

2008-09-28, 06:14 PM

SPOD, you have never ceased being my hero. Where do you find these quotes?

I follow him around with a tape recorder. :wink:

chiasaur11

2008-09-28, 07:13 PM

I follow him around with a tape recorder. :wink:

Well, um...
Good job!

Keep it up.

Warren Dew

2008-09-28, 07:24 PM

So... to advance the discussion, do you still feel the same way, or do you feel there has been some major stuff happening?

As one of those who agreed with the original poster early in this thread, I think the last two strips - which were put up after those posts - definitely help in that they cut short an arc that had perhaps overstayed its welcome. This is not to say I think the author is listening to the forum; having Vaarsuvius disintegrate a prisoner like that seems like something that was planned in advance, so I'm happy to credit good pacing instincts and planning on the part of the author.

Personally, I'm very happy with where we are at the moment. The cast of characters has been trimmed by two in the last few strips, ending one or possibly two arcs that were uninteresting to me. The way it was done sharpens how Elan's character is developing, and clarifies Vaarsuvius. I think it's great. I don't think I'm alone, either, considering the enthusiastic response to 595, including a lot of first time posters.

I'm also curious about the original poster's opinion, though. While some side plots have been cut short, we aren't actually progressing on the main plot yet, which if I recall was what he wanted to see.

I just can't think of any "solution" apart from reading the books and not the online strip.

For what he's talking about, I don't think that solution helps. To be honest, back during the orc island plot, I was thinking, "I definitely want to buy War and XPs for the battle, but I might skip the next volume if it keeps going like this." Now, I think I'm likely to buy it. It's not an issue of how much happens per week; it's an issue of how much happens per page.

I'm really interested to see where things will go next.

I have a question for you, too. You were, if I recall, one of the people who liked the side plots. How do you feel about the last few strips, with Therkla and Kubota being cut down in quick succession? Are the people who hoped for a longer Therkla romance plot disappointed, or are they still happy to go with whatever is next?

Edit: the quotes from Rich show that he's not willing to bend the story to please the readers, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want as many readers as possible.

SPoD

2008-09-28, 07:31 PM

Edit: the quotes from Rich show that he's not willing to bend the story to please the readers, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want as many readers as possible.

As many readers as possible without changing his current plans, yes. There is no way to address the concerns of those on this thread without changing his current plans, so therefore, their concerns will go unanswered. And Rich is obviously OK with losing them as readers.

If Kreistor's stated purpose in complaining is to let Rich know that Rich needs to change in order to keep his readership, well, then he might as well throw in the towel.

pearl jam

2008-09-28, 08:07 PM

I've been reading OOTS for a long time now, but this is the first time I've ever visited the forum.

Although I have felt that the strip has moved too slowly on occasion, and I do look forward to Roy's return, because he does bring an important dynamic to the group, overall I continue to enjoy the comic, which still delivers humorous dialog and situations at a regular rate.

eilandesq

2008-09-28, 09:33 PM

It's interesting to contemplate how the plot would have progressed if the Giant had decided to--instead of having Haley and Belkar return too late to avoid being left behind, then being cut off from contact via the Cloister spell--have Haley and Belkar barely make it out on time as the ship sailed. Obviously, Roy would have been quickly raised--and maybe regenerated, given that arrow to the 'nads--and the OotS would have been reunited in the fleeing Azure City fleet. What would have happened then?

For one thing, Roy has agreed to be Hinjo's bodyguard, and the events of the strips after the escape from Azure City makes it clear that he would still be needed in that duty. Furthermore, Roy's own Lawful Good honed sense of honor wouldn't let him walk away from a commitment he made personally, even to continue to try to fulfill his own obligation (both blood oath fueled and from his own sense of honor) to destroy Xykon permanently. Furthermore, Roy, Haley, and Belkar do not add any skills that would make it any easier to detect and defeat Kubota's scheming over the months (though the added offensive firepower would make the raids less deadly, as would the lack of distraction for V). Consequently, it's a reasonable guess that by the time the wedding came around, the Order would still be with the fleet, with Roy standing in the place that Elan was in the actual timeline.

Now--ignoring little questions like "would Therkla have assassinated Roy?"--the question is: would the Order be any better equipped to face Xykon than they were at the Battle of Azure City in this scenario? The answer is clearly "No." Oh, they would have gained some XP and possibly even leveled from all of the raids, but Haley would have missed out on all of the character-building leadership experience she developed in the Resistance, and V--while less unhinged--wouldn't have spent all of the time he did on spell research. Those scrying spells may have been useless in finding Haley, but they might be just the ticket for finding the exact location of Girard's Gate. Not to mention Elan--as others have observed, there's no mechanical reason that Elan has to be as useless as he's been most of the time--the traumas that he's been through in the past few months are bound to toughen him up a bit and get him to develop his class abilities more effectively. Belkar might well be better off--he might have earned an early removal of the Mark via his actions in the Battle of Azure City and in defending the fleet--but it's pretty clear that Belkar isn't going to be the key to defeating Xykon.

In short, I'd suggest that by the time the Order reunites--with the internal threat to the Azure City survivors now gone--they'll all have had experiences that will leave them far further along the path of being able to deal with Xykon than they would have had they simply stayed with the fleet as a group.

Or so I hope. :smallsmile:

Kreistor

2008-09-29, 08:52 AM

Wow. A lot has happened in the last half a day. Let me reassure the forum moderators that I respect their position and I will not respond in kind to the others.

I will drop the cultural discussion with only one statement: talk to restaurant owners and ask them.

Now, a couple people ask my opinion on the last few strips. Just read 597.

My opinion on 595 was that the Giant was making a point to us. I don't find it coincidental that it appeared the day after I started this thread. I think his point was that he both creates and destroys problems for his characters at his discretion. It was a message for both me and those arguing against me. He creates the problems. He solves the problems. He can do so quickly and arbitrarily, or as slowly as he wishes. He didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

The next two strips, as a conversation between Elan and V, advanced nothing in any story. Some call it character development: I don't see anyone changing, just interacting, so I would call it character demonstration, but that's just semantics. I didn't learn anything new about either character. We already knew V was on the edge, and Elan ignores conclusions he doesn't like.

Consequently, no, I do not feel the Giant has sped anything up. I am thinking he fully intends this arc to span an entire book, so we've got q ways to go yet.

Authors need to experiment, just like any artist. They need to try different things in order to learn what works and what doesn't. The Giant is no different. This current arc, like any arc, is an experiment. from that, the Giant must learn how to be a better author. How does one learn if a work of art failed? You listen to your audience and determine if the reaction was one you intended.

No, the Giant should not kowtow to any individual or group, and that is why I made no request for immediate and drastic change in the first place; however, as an artist, the Giant must sell his wares, and that means he must have audience acceptance. If he doesn't, he can't make much of a living. If the experiment failed, he can't just hack it up and jump past. That would hurt the overall story. that's why I have always talked about him learning a lesson in being an author, not demanding immediate change. I understand the process and know that demand for immediate change is absurd.

SPoD, those are all great quotes, but if that is what the Giant really believes, that he can write anything he wants and he will make a living off it, he is going to starve, and he knows that, so I take them with a grain of salt, as you should. My sister has been trying to get published for years, with no luck. She was smart enough to have a serious day job, so she doesn't starve. That's the difference. My sister doesn't write what others want to read, so she can't live off it. The Giant does, therefore, he must accept that he must write for his audience. Anyone that thinks they can write anything and they will have an audience that will feed them is just, well, you can finish that sentence without my aid.

Further, I have seen far too many coincidences of the type I mention above to believe that the Giant does not read the forums by times. There was a magical arrow I seem to remember various absurd predictions for suddenly bouncing off all of the possible victims to finally hit the ground near V. I doubt that would have happened without the forum activity. That's the most blatant example of the Giant responding to the forum in comic, anyway.

So, no, what the Giant wrote there is not the whole story. He mustn't bow to the whims of individual complainers I agree, and that's what he's talking about; however, he must still learn what he has written that drives readers away. If he applies those lessons to his future work, he'll have a larger audience, make more money, eat better, and so on.

Do I think the Giant has changed the OotS in order to attract a larger audience? Definitely. This comic originally filled a niche, as earlier discussed in this thread. The Giant broke from that niche, turning the strip away from an RPG based story towards a more standard fantasy story. This expanded the fundamentally limited RPG player audience to include all fantasy readers, which is a much larger audience. He lost a few people from the original audience with that change, I'm certain, but the larger audience added more readers than he lost. Net gain. The Giant eats better.

The problem now is that his current arc is not going to attract a larger audience. He's not attracting a group that wasn't already reading, while he is risking the readership of some long term readers. There can be no increase in readership, only loss. That's not good. The Giant can't eat better that way.

Authors must have negative feedback. It's the only way things improve. Positive feedback, especially feedback that reaffirms the belief that one can write anything and there are no consequences, doesn't improve things. Only by learning what mistakes you have made can you avoid mistakes in the future. Yes, everyone needs their ego stroked, but if that's all you get, it's like eating dessert all day -- you become all fat and no muscle. Sometimes you have to eat that liver to keep your iron levels up.

Lissou

2008-09-29, 09:52 AM

I have a question for you, too. You were, if I recall, one of the people who liked the side plots. How do you feel about the last few strips, with Therkla and Kubota being cut down in quick succession? Are the people who hoped for a longer Therkla romance plot disappointed, or are they still happy to go with whatever is next?

Well, first of all, I didn't hope for a longer Therkla romance plot. I actually didn't like Therkla very much, especially after she learned Elan had someone, and still tried to convince him to be with her in the meantime. Before that, she simply seemed very shallow, so although I didn't hate her, I didn't have much interest in her.

But I did like the comic, and I still do. During the previous part, I kept thinking "what's going to happen next? The suspens is killing me!", and during the last few strips, what was currently happening was the exciting part, even though I'm still very curious about what's going to happen next.

I'm sure some people are disappointed, who were happy before. I guess I'm just a bit different there.

I really trust Rich, not to lead the story in a place I particularly like or want, but to lead it where he wants to. He's shown me that he can plan, has planned, and knows what he is doing. So he would need to stop being funny, become a biggot, make very, very bad jokes and such before I could think the comic is going downhill.
Because as far as I know, the comic is going where he wants to go. And I don't know where that is, so I can't say how good a job he's doing, but I trust him, because he's taken me with him in his stories before (when I read the prequel books for instance) and made me feel what very few authors make me feel. I know he's human and can make mistakes, but so far I can't see anything that I can say for sure is one.

To me, we're all blindfolded in some dangerous place, and the Giant is leading us by the hand on a path he's created, and it might not be the fastest route, or the one we would have chosen, and it might not lead us where we want or expect, but there needs to be a relation of trust when you're blindfolded and depend so much on someone. So I trust him. I will keep trusting him unless I get seriously injured and never, ever see the end of the tunnel, and he drops my hand and just leaves me there.

Fawkes

2008-09-29, 11:02 AM

You were, if I recall, one of the people who liked the side plots. How do you feel about the last few strips, with Therkla and Kubota being cut down in quick succession? Are the people who hoped for a longer Therkla romance plot disappointed, or are they still happy to go with whatever is next?

This wasn't directed at me, but I loved the side plots. Therkla's death tugged at the heartstrings, and Kubota's death caught me completely by surprise. I'm disappointed that Therkla is gone, as I really liked her, but it made perfect sense in the story. It's what happened, for better or worse, and I'm not going to complain. Kubota's death, however, got me cheering. Kubota was a brilliantly written antagonist, one who I hated perhaps even more than Xykon. Watching him die in the most anticlimatic way possible was just hilarious.

My opinion on 595 was that the Giant was making a point to us. I don't find it coincidental that it appeared the day after I started this thread.

Delusions of grandeur much? I'm sure the Giant hasn't even read this topic. Even if he did, he wouldn't have killed off a major antagonist so quickly just to make a point to you. You're not that important. Get over yourself.

SPoD, those are all great quotes, but if that is what the Giant really believes, that he can write anything he wants and he will make a living off it, he is going to starve, and he knows that, so I take them with a grain of salt, as you should. My sister has been trying to get published for years, with no luck. She was smart enough to have a serious day job, so she doesn't starve. That's the difference. My sister doesn't write what others want to read, so she can't live off it. The Giant does, therefore, he must accept that he must write for his audience. Anyone that thinks they can write anything and they will have an audience that will feed them is just, well, you can finish that sentence without my aid.

Have we EVER had ANY indication that Rich needs the income from the comic to survive? For all we know, he has three jobs, an expert stock portfolio, and a trust fund.

Authors must have negative feedback. It's the only way things improve.

So email Rich. PM him. Hold candlelight vigils outside his house. Go on a hunger strike until he "fixes" the comic. You still won't accomplish anything! There's no point to coming on to the forums and complaining like this. Rich isn't going to read it, and he's definitely not going to change anything

Lissou

2008-09-29, 11:10 AM

Have we EVER had ANY indication that Rich needs the income from the comic to survive? For all we know, he has three jobs, an expert stock portfolio, and a trust fund.

Actually, he's even said stuff like "Don't donate money, I don't need any, if you feel the urge to donate, here is a list of charities".
I'm pretty sure he's doing okay for money, unless it has changed since then.

Fawkes

2008-09-29, 12:12 PM

Thanks, Lissou. See, Kreistor? Don't assume someone is a starving artist. YOu know what happens when you assume.

When you assume, the terrorists win.

Kreistor

2008-09-29, 12:28 PM

Other artists survive off book sales. Pete Abrams of Sluggy Freelance, for instance, has no other income than that based on the sale of Sluggy mechandise. It was when he forgot to make new books and shirts, concentrating solely on the comic, that his bank account ran dry.

Why do you assume the comic isn't a part of his source of income? Yes, the Giant makes money from other sources, unlike many online comic artists, but you don't know his financial breakdown any more than I do. How much does he make a year from book sales?

EllysW

2008-09-29, 12:51 PM

Gosh, it's probably nobody's business how much he makes from book sales.

It's been very interesting to read this thread, but it strikes me that some of the posters, while indeed holding thoughtful positions, equate making art with making money from art. This is not necessarily so. I was recently hearing about the fact that Picasso was very popular during his day and people bought his work, whereas Van Gogh of course was not and died poor and mad and sans an ear. And yet, today, their works sell for comparable sums and they are two of the most venerated of artists.

So, artists do stuff that isn't greatly popular all the time. Conversely, I could name several authors who have a marketable skill at writing and an ability to calculate what the current market will purchase, and they're popular. However, I wouldn't say they are artists. They're people who get to earn their living by writing. If that's Rich's primary goal, then it probably behooves him to pay close attention to the desires of his market. If he wants to be an artist, however, then it's imperative that he retain his integrity and tell the story he means to tell.

It also strikes me that people seem to know a lot about what's a sidequest and what isn't, without knowing where the story will eventually go. Myself, I can't read this guy's mind. It could be, for example, that V will go over the edge in a manner that is absolutely crucial to the resolution of the story, and that to make it plausible, Rich needed a storyline that would take some time pushing V up to that edge. Or, maybe he was just having fun putzing around and it got out of hand. We don't know, and we won't know until after he gets us there.

If that journey is no fun anymore, people should jump ship. I just don't think that opinion should matter to the author, any more than my equally unimportant decision to respect the story and see where it leads should matter.

Dervag

2008-09-29, 01:02 PM

Dear Kreistor:

Mr. Burlew is already quite successful at selling his books, I gather. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable for him to not assume that there's something important he needs to learn. Moreover, he has made it clear that he is more concerned about the artistic merit of the strip in his own eyes than he is about sales. Since the strip, as he sees it, has artistic merit and is still selling reasonably well, I doubt he actually needs to change his methods.
_____________

If Mr. Burlew feels the need to sell more products related to his comics in order to make ends meet, then I'm sure he can act on that need. If, for some reason, he cannot figure out how to sell more products and wishes to ask you for advice on how to be a better webcomic artist, he knows at least one way to contact you.

Until that time, it seems likely that he does not need your advice on how to make a profitable webcomic. He's already doing a good job of that without your input. Therefore, your advice is more likely to annoy him and result in bad things happening than it is to do good.
____________

To address your original artistic concerns, this is not the first time the strip has veered off what you would call the main plot. For roughly 80 strips (from 120 to 190) no plot-critical events happened. Roy did not get any closer to killing Xykon. The party learned nothing about Xykon's ultimate plans. They accomplished nothing except the accumulation of XP and treasure. And they didn't even get to keep most of the treasure.

As of strip 189, the webcomic had been "off plot" for 35% of its history. If you were here then, did you complain then too? If you weren't, did you object to those strips when you read them after the fact?

The distinction between "plot" and "subplot," or between "quest" and "sidequest" is rather arbitrary. Around strip 134 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html), Roy took the whole party off on a quest to find starmetal to reforge his broken sword as a stronger weapon that could threaten Xykon. Was this a sidequest, or part of the main plot? On the one hand, it was intimately related to Roy's character (that sword is important to him), and to the struggle against Xykon (searching for a weapon that could kill him). On the other, none of the other characters got to pursue their own ambitions. And, as I said, we learned nothing about Xykon's intentions and resources.

If you, personally, regard the search for the gates and the struggle to stop Xykon from gaining power over them, that's your taste. However, there are many funny and interesting stories in the world that have nothing to do with stopping Xykon and finding the gates. Mr. Burlew has every right to explore those stories and to look at the behavior of his characters under pressure. If you think it's a bad idea, you are perfectly free to create your own webcomic with your own characters. You can make everyone and everything in the setting bent on achieving the desired main goal in record time. No one will stop you.

Perhaps your comic will even be as good as Mr. Burlew's is.

Fawkes

2008-09-29, 01:22 PM

Why do you assume the comic isn't a part of his source of income? Yes, the Giant makes money from other sources, unlike many online comic artists, but you don't know his financial breakdown any more than I do. How much does he make a year from book sales?

I don't assume anything. Did you completely miss the point of my post? Rich's financial status is none of our concern.

Kreistor

2008-09-29, 01:24 PM

To address your original artistic concerns, this is not the first time the strip has veered off what you would call the main plot. For roughly 80 strips (from 120 to 190) no plot-critical events happened. Roy did not get any closer to killing Xykon. The party learned nothing about Xykon's ultimate plans. They accomplished nothing except the accumulation of XP and treasure. And they didn't even get to keep most of the treasure.

And I didn't complain when that happened. (Actually, that's where I started reading. Somewhere during Samantha and the brigands event.) Why didn't I complain? I've already said it. It is just this one arc, not side pplots in general, that I have a problem with. This one was just too large and long.

Perhaps your comic will even be as good as Mr. Burlew's is.

I express my artistry in a different way -- as a DM. I still write plots and stories, but have even less control of the characters. You're welome to join my next campaign and see what I learned, if you're in my region.

Dervag

2008-09-29, 03:10 PM

And I didn't complain when that happened. (Actually, that's where I started reading. Somewhere during Samantha and the brigands event.) Why didn't I complain? I've already said it. It is just this one arc, not side pplots in general, that I have a problem with. This one was just too large and long.

I express my artistry in a different way -- as a DM. I still write plots and stories, but have even less control of the characters. You're welome to join my next campaign and see what I learned, if you're in my region.Fair enough, but Mr. Burlew doesn't give you unsolicited advice on how to DM on the assumption he knows how to do it better than you do.

SPoD

2008-09-29, 06:15 PM

SPoD, those are all great quotes, but if that is what the Giant really believes, that he can write anything he wants and he will make a living off it, he is going to starve, and he knows that, so I take them with a grain of salt, as you should. My sister has been trying to get published for years, with no luck. She was smart enough to have a serious day job, so she doesn't starve. That's the difference. My sister doesn't write what others want to read, so she can't live off it. The Giant does, therefore, he must accept that he must write for his audience. Anyone that thinks they can write anything and they will have an audience that will feed them is just, well, you can finish that sentence without my aid.

I think you did not get the same information from those quotes that I did. He is NOT saying that he can make money off of anything he writes; he specifically says he will continue writing even if he makes no money at all. He IS implying that he does not need the money that he makes off of OOTS in order to survive--or at least, does not need it at the maximum possible level. And if he doesn't need the money to feed himself, he's saying that he is not going to shamelessly chase it by doing things he finds artistically objectionable.

We know that the Giant does not have another job, but we do NOT know that his family does not have another source of income. His wife may well be a highly paid brain surgeon making $500k a year, for all we know. He may be independently wealthy. He may be eligible for disability pay, depending on the nature of his illness. Further, while my search-fu is weak today and I can't find it, I remember him saying once that he made substantially more money back when he was a graphic designer than he ever made on OOTS, so he could likely return to that line of work if push came to shove. (And, incidentally, the fact that he took a substantial pay cut in order to work on OOTS further indicates that he values his artistic freedom more than monetary compensation.)

The point is, there's no reason to think that the success of OOTS is the end-all and be-all of Rich Burlew's financial stability, or that he needs to compromise his artistic vision in order to please the audience--especially after he says, "I'm not willing to compromise my artistic vision in order to please the audience." He knows what he needs better than any of us do.

Finally, you say Giant must write for his audience. Well, he is, whether it is his intention or not. He's writing for me, and for everyone else who likes what he is writing. That audience just doesn't include YOU anymore. You're just mad that he doesn't need YOU to survive. That you have no ability to influence him. You assume that because you were once part of his audience, your needs need to be serviced constantly. But he's done with you. He's moved on. He is writing for those of us who like what is happening NOW, and if that doesn't include you, so be it.

Fawkes

2008-09-29, 09:28 PM

SPoD, you're my hero.

*stands up alongside SPoD*

The Giant's writing for me, too. Also, can I be your sidekick?

Ricky S

2008-09-29, 09:37 PM

Has anyone actually considered that maybe Rich doesnt want to get back to the main plot? Or if he does he might not want to have the happy ending we all expect. As of the moment I do not think Roy will ever be revived and just be a bystander to the plot. Belkar was predicted to die and V currently is extremely weird and becoming really aggressive as opposed to her/his normal attitude. What will happen to our beloved heroes? Only time will tell... Duh Duh Dunn

Kreistor

2008-09-29, 10:35 PM

Fair enough, but Mr. Burlew doesn't give you unsolicited advice on how to DM on the assumption he knows how to do it better than you do.

But my players did. My players are to me as I am (or you are) to the Giant.

We know that the Giant does not have another job, but we do NOT know that his family does not have another source of income.

Hunh? Yes, he does. Rich contracts to WotC as a designer. He's published fairly often in Dragon, and so has work included in the Spell Compendium and Tome of Artifacts. He has designer credits in MM3, and several Eberron products. I'm pretty certain he also works for third party publishers, as well, but I'm not going to bother looking those up. I've already looked up the WotC references, which is evidence enough of Rich's career in RPG design.

You're just mad that he doesn't need YOU to survive. That you have no ability to influence him. You assume that because you were once part of his audience, your needs need to be serviced constantly. But he's done with you. He's moved on. He is writing for those of us who like what is happening NOW, and if that doesn't include you, so be it.

Who's mad? I'm disappointed in the current arc (because I'm bored of the current arc), not mad. Have I been attacking the Giant for his actions? Have I demanded that my opinions are the only correct ones? It's you that seems to want to stifle my opinion: I've never said anything to suggest that those arguing against me need to be quiet and go away. I've done everything I can to demonstrate compromise, or that I don't have mutually exclusive goals with people that enjoy other aspects fo the comic and initially argue against me. Are these the actions of someone that is "mad"? My posts don't have any mod edits in them, so I haven't been flaming, so your accusation can't be coming from that either. The closest anyone can come up with is a foray into a cultural discussion, which certainly isn't evidence of anger or hatred on my part towards the Giant. So where does this accusation come from?

Or can't you accept that my initial post is actually my real agenda? I have to be something else, more vile, so you can bring me down and everyone will cheer? Sorry, I'm not what you want me to be.

BTW, the Giant hasn't moved on. He will return to his main plot in time: it's inevitable. That's why I haven't stopped reading. He's only on a side trek, that's all. That seems fairly obvious considering the lengths the Giant has gone to in setting up the Gates/Xykon plot. I think he'd lose a lot of readers if he decided that the Gate plot will never advance.

SPoD

2008-09-29, 10:43 PM

Quibbling over my use of the word "mad" is just a diversion from the real point. If you want to substitute upset, disappointed, unhappy, dissatisfied, whatever adjective you want that means "not pleased", go right ahead. Your exact emotional state matters to me not at all.

My point still stands: You're not happy because you think Rich should be catering to you, and he's not. The fact that your stated purpose in bringing this up was to let him know that he was losing your interest (and that he needed to change in order to keep it) says as much.

I'm not accusing you of anything other than continuing to argue that Rich needs to care about what you think long after it should be apparent to you that he does not.

EDIT because I missed this point in my first read:

My players are to me as I am (or you are) to the Giant.

You have, what, 5-10 players? Rich has over half a million readers. One player to you is equal to like 50,000 or more readers to Rich. If you lose a single person, you may be down 10-20% of your total number of supporters. If Rich loses a single person...he won't even notice. If Rich loses 10,000 people, he may notice, but it probably won't affect his bottom line enough to be that important. Rich would need to lose hundreds of thousands of readers before he would need to seriously worry about becoming unprofitable, and there's no evidence that such a loss is happening.

Warren Dew

2008-09-29, 11:13 PM

This wasn't directed at me, but I loved the side plots.

I was interested in the opinions of anyone in that position; I just happened to be responding to Lissou. Thanks to both of you!

Has anyone actually considered that maybe Rich doesnt want to get back to the main plot? Or if he does he might not want to have the happy ending we all expect.

I'm not particularly expecting a happy ending. I'm not particularly expecting an unhappy ending, either; one of the things I definitely trust Rich to do is craft an interesting ending, happy or otherwise.

Kreistor

2008-09-29, 11:26 PM

My point still stands: You're not happy because you think Rich should be catering to you, and he's not. The fact that your stated purpose in bringing this up was to let him know that he was losing your interest (and that he needed to change in order to keep it) says as much.

No, my stated position was that I hoped the Giant would learn a lesson from making the same mistake I did -- creating a side adventure that was simply too large to solve before people begin losing interest in the strip. I've presented examples of other authors in the same position, specifically Jordan.

I'm not accusing you of anything other than continuing to argue that Rich needs to care about what you think long after it should be apparent to you that he does not.

I'm not arguing against the Giant. I'm arguing against you, because you chose to argue. If you stopped, I wouldn't have any further points to make and this would go away.

You have, what, 5-10 players? Rich has over half a million readers. One player to you is equal to like 50,000 or more readers to Rich. If you lose a single person, you may be down 10-20% of your total number of supporters. If Rich loses a single person...he won't even notice. If Rich loses 10,000 people, he may notice, but it probably won't affect his bottom line enough to be that important. Rich would need to lose hundreds of thousands of readers before he would need to seriously worry about becoming unprofitable, and there's no evidence that such a loss is happening.

Now you're putting a belief system into Rich? How do you know he doesn't care if he loses a single reader, or that it would take 10000 for him to notice?

BTW, you will never have evidence of the loss of readership. The Giant, on the other hand, knows exactly how many people download the strip, if he wants to. He knows if he's losing readership.

chiasaur11

2008-09-29, 11:48 PM

SPoD, you're my hero.

*stands up alongside SPoD*

The Giant's writing for me, too. Also, can I be your sidekick?

I want in too.

Can I be the Flash Thompson type, your secret identity's biggest fan, your civilian identity's hated rival, and general comic butt monkey?

I mean, if the Commissioner Gordon role is taken. If not, I'll totally take the Gordon job.

Dervag

2008-09-29, 11:52 PM

No, my stated position was that I hoped the Giant would learn a lesson from making the same mistake I did -- creating a side adventure that was simply too large to solve before people begin losing interest in the strip. I've presented examples of other authors in the same position, specifically Jordan.I think it's a little presumptive to say that Mr. Burlew is doing something that is objectively wrong, and that he therefore needs to learn a lesson from.

Now you're putting a belief system into Rich? How do you know he doesn't care if he loses a single reader, or that it would take 10000 for him to notice?Because he loses readers all the time, for any reason or none. With half a million readers, simple statistics guarantees that he loses dozens every day to accidental deaths and the like.

When you have a readership that large, you can only talk about "your audience" in statistical terms. The number of people you can actually know is such a small fraction of the audience that they aren't a representative sample of the audience.

You have five people in your audience. If one of them dislikes your work, you can probably please them without displeasing someone else.

Rich can't possibly do that. With half a million readers, anything he does to please you and those like you will almost certainly displease some other subsection of his readership. Such as the people who wouldn't enjoy a singleminded pursuit of the 'main goal' of the story at the expense of all the humor and characterization that we get in the side arcs.

I believe that Rich has reached the (high) limits of his artistic ability. It is within his power to change the strip, but it is unlikely that he can change the strip and make it objectively better, in the sense one might say "Shakespeare is better than Plan 9 From Outer Space." He can only make it different. And since he doesn't want to make it different, he's under no obligation to make it different to please your market sector at the expense of some other market sector.

Fawkes

2008-09-30, 12:10 AM

Dervag, this is completely off-topic, but I must know the context of your signature.

I, too, have experienced the pain of the Molasses Swamp.

Kreistor

2008-09-30, 07:11 AM

Rich can't possibly do that. With half a million readers, anything he does to please you and those like you will almost certainly displease some other subsection of his readership. Such as the people who wouldn't enjoy a singleminded pursuit of the 'main goal' of the story at the expense of all the humor and characterization that we get in the side arcs.

And yet Robert Jordan, who had far more than .5M readers and no forum only letter feedback, was able to hear his audience's complaints and agreed with them.

I'm sorry, but your argument demands that no author ever hears complaints from his readership, and that's just not true.

nimby

2008-09-30, 07:50 AM

Let's say the comic goes back to the main plot and is resolved in 1 year from now. We'll end up on an internet without OOTS updates!

If it means OOTS is around for a lot longer and stays just as hilarious, Rich can add marauding dancing chipmunks as a 3-month long sidequest and I'd love it.

Warren Dew

2008-09-30, 09:13 AM

I think it's a little presumptive to say that Mr. Burlew is doing something that is objectively wrong, and that he therefore needs to learn a lesson from....

Rich can't possibly do that. With half a million readers

I'm curious - where are people getting the half million number from? I'm not questioning it, I'm just wondering where the data comes from.

I believe that Rich has reached the (high) limits of his artistic ability. It is within his power to change the strip, but it is unlikely that he can change the strip and make it objectively better

Speaking of presumptuousness, I think it's a little presumptuous to say that Rich has reached his limits and can't further improve, especially since he's stated in the commentary in his books that he's constantly looking for ways to improve.

Let's say the comic goes back to the main plot and is resolved in 1 year from now. We'll end up on an internet without OOTS updates!

I think one year is unlikely, but if it were to get resolved in, say, 8 years instead of 16 or whatever, I'm sure he could still find something good to do. There's probably a decades worth of strips in the order of the scribble alone, if he should decide to do that.

SPoD

2008-09-30, 04:52 PM

Now you're putting a belief system into Rich? How do you know he doesn't care if he loses a single reader,

Because he said so!! Because he has said, over and over, that if you don't like the comic, stop reading. If he cared about losing a single reader, he would not say that. I quoted three different times that the Giant has said essentially, "I accept the loss of any readers who aren't enjoying what I'm writing." He says it again in the intro to War and XPs. I'm pretty sure he's said it in the news posts, too.

And yet Robert Jordan, who had far more than .5M readers and no forum only letter feedback, was able to hear his audience's complaints and agreed with them.

I'm sorry, but your argument demands that no author ever hears complaints from his readership, and that's just not true.

First, apples and oranges: Almost every reader of Robert Jordan's purchased his book (or at least got it from a friend or library that purchased it). A loss of a reader was, for the most part, a loss of a sale. Only a very small portion of Rich's readers buy his books. Therefore, there is a large portion of readers that might have opinions on his story but have no impact on his finances.

Second, whoopity doo for Robert Jordan. Just because one author does things a certain way does not obligate Rich to do them the same way. Jordan CHOSE to listen to his readers, but Rich clearly has chosen NOT to, which he is free to do. Whether you like that choice or not is irrelevant.

Dervag

2008-09-30, 04:57 PM

And yet Robert Jordan, who had far more than .5M readers and no forum only letter feedback, was able to hear his audience's complaints and agreed with them.

I'm sorry, but your argument demands that no author ever hears complaints from his readership, and that's just not true.Oh, no, not at all.

You see, an artist who worries about sales will listen to complaints.

But Mr. Burlew isn't worried about sales, as far as I can tell from his own words. He doesn't need to worry about sales and he doesn't want to. So he doesn't have to listen to complaints. It is not a duty he is obligated to carry out, and it isn't a practical necessity for him to the best of our knowledge.
_____________

Speaking of presumptuousness, I think it's a little presumptuous to say that Rich has reached his limits and can't further improve, especially since he's stated in the commentary in his books that he's constantly looking for ways to improve.Touché.

Perhaps a better way of putting it is that I think The Order of the Stick is about as good as a webcomic in its genre and adhering to its basic premises is likely to be. I cannot imagine either him or some other person starting up a new, similar strip that was dramatically better than this one, in the sense that Shakespeare is better than Plan Nine From Outer Space.

It might be preferable from one person's point of view. It might even be preferable from my point of view. But it wouldn't be something that nearly every person in the world would prefer to Order of the Stick.

Therefore, I feel that Mr. Burlew has attained the highest level of quality he is likely to attain. He may well refine the quality of his webcomic further, but these refinements will be incremental. And not everyone will agree that they are improvements, because you can't please everyone.

SPoD

2008-09-30, 05:07 PM

I'm curious - where are people getting the half million number from? I'm not questioning it, I'm just wondering where the data comes from.

Well, I thought I remembered that being tossed around; a search has come up with this:

By my estimates, we have 250,000 regular check-every-strip readers, plus an uncountable number of casual readers.

So, we have an audience higher than that, but we don't know by how much.

Ridureyu

2008-09-30, 05:22 PM

I think that Kubota's death is proof that Rich is constantly listening to people's complaints and learning. The sub-plot was beginning to drag on a bit? WHAMITISOVERTHANKS. And lampshaded!

Kreistor

2008-09-30, 11:20 PM

First, apples and oranges: Almost every reader of Robert Jordan's purchased his book (or at least got it from a friend or library that purchased it). A loss of a reader was, for the most part, a loss of a sale. Only a very small portion of Rich's readers buy his books. Therefore, there is a large portion of readers that might have opinions on his story but have no impact on his finances.

Your point was that the Giant couldn't hear the complaints of some fans because they were too numerous. My point about Jordan is that he could detect the complaints with an even larger readership; therefore, your numbers argument was simply rhetoric.

The Giant can see how many readers he has every month by simply checking his download numbers on his website. He has much faster feedback on the state of his readership than any novel author. If he wants to know the state of the readership, he can get it faster than Jordan ever could.

When someone stops reading, with no feedback, one does not know why the reader stopped reading. So the loss of readership detected from the loss of finances is indeterminable. Only by listening to the various forms of feedback (forum, letters/email, conventions), can one determine what might be the problem. If one only looks at one's bottom line, one is left to trying to think up the reason on one's own, and no one is objective enough to get that right all the time.