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Hairb
2008-09-21, 09:53 AM
First off, this isn't a vs thread, not in the classic style at least. I was reading an interview with Monte Cooke and it seems there was a bit of history behind the switch from modrons to inevitables. Specifically, he said:


Originally, when it was proposed that they go into the MM, it was decided that there were too many of them, and it would take too much core rulebook space. But the assumption was that they would go into a follow-up book, like Manual of the Planes. But some of the designers didn't like modrons, and so we got the inevitables instead. (I have a hard time even typing that sentence because I'm still a little incredulous, actually.) I love modrons. Really a lot. I did the rogue modron player character rules in Planewalker's Handbook because I wanted to play a clockwork box. I mean, how cool is that?

What are your thoughts? I missed 2e altogether, so it's hard to get nostalgic about something I never knew. I sort of prefer modrons to inevitables though. Inevitables just feel kind of fake and tacked on; too few of them are described to make their allegedly important role in the workings of the Cosmos seem meaningful.

Gralamin
2008-09-21, 10:04 AM
Campaigns I run will have both Modrons and Inevitables. Inevitables job is to protect central laws by finding and judging those who break laws. Modrons job is to defend and keep Mechanus working properly. They produce Inevitables to do the jobs they cannot. Inevitables are usually called back after one or two missions in order to erase their memories, in order to keep them in perfect running order, and stopping them from making any 'poor' decisions about whether or not laws need to be followed.

Rogue Modrons in such a place would be those who have grown a semi-balance of individualism. Primus sends them out into the world in order to gather information, and allow Modrons to evolve along with the universe. Due to Modrons self-sustainability (as soon as one dies, its energy is sent back to Mechanus, allowing the promotion of an alive Modron, and the recreation of the a Monodrone.

Oh and if I feel like stealing from transformers, you get the "Unicron Inevitable" of Mechanus, piloted by Modrons.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 10:20 AM
The three lawful "exemplar" races (formians, modrons and inevitables) all have their own niche within Mechanus.

Personally, I found some concepts from the modrons to be a bit off - the fact that a hierarch modron cannot issue orders to a duodrone, say. On the other hand, that sort of thing is what made them so fitting as lawful exemplars.

The main problem people had with them, I think, is that they're silly-looking. This is a painfully valid point; if you ever see a picture of the decaton, you'll understand what I mean. That said, the lesser modrons aren't that silly-looking, they're just geometric.

Modrons are generally a good idea from the DM's standpoint. They're lawful to the point of annoyingness, but they bring their own flavor along. They also have a great span of challenge ratings, although the web statted ones need tinkering to be usable in 3.5.

Modrons exist to monitor the operation of the planes and especially Mechanus. They are the integrators, taskmasters and repairmen of the cosmic order. They also have the benefit of being completely inscrutable, and the concept of "rogue" modrons is an interesting plot hook.

Formians exist to impose their own brand of order. While perfectly logical beings, they are expansionist and generally counter to the modrons' brand of law. Formians are primarily an antagonist race of law, and fit in less well with the overall planar structure of Mechanus than the other two exemplars. Nonetheless, they are a significant presence on that plane, and serve both as antagonists in a lawful vs. lawful conflict and also generally as expansionists.

Inevitables are servitors of the plane of Mechanus. On the one hand, it's appropriate that there are such a small number of them. Zelekhuts are the inevitability of punishment, kolyaruts the inevitability of obligation and maruts the inevitability of death. The two from the Fiend Folio kind of push it a bit - they prosecute cosmic crime, yes, but sort of stray from the "inevitable" concept... Quaruts are the inevitability of reality, and Varakhuts the inevitability of... of what? I vote "mortality," in the sense that there is a limit to what mortals can do in the multiverse, and Varakhuts delineate it. But you can see where the concept slacks.

The one from Sandstorm is even sillier. Anhydruts don't even come close. The inevitability of... what, dryness? Lack of water beyond a large mountainous expanse? Oops, a geographical commonality. We'd better enforce that one, guys. This thingy would be their excuse to have an inevitable that gets mad at you for turning salt water to fresh water.

Inevitables are useful as an example of how Mechanus reacts to the cosmic order and the forces of chaos. While formians simply expand and wage war against everything they encounter, and modrons oppose chaos but never come into conflict with it, that is in fact the sole purpose of the inevitables. I like them if only for that reason.

Of course, I have a bit of bias (check the sig.) But that's my two cents worth.

UglyPanda
2008-09-21, 10:34 AM
Modrons are like Flumphs. They're silly and people want to convert them to the current edition, but they're hard to take seriously in the edition they're from. It's also kinda hard not to get the impression that they were designed when a tired DM left his dice on the battle grid and the players asked what it was for.

Bluelantern
2008-09-21, 11:08 AM
Campaigns I run will have both Modrons and Inevitables. Inevitables job is to protect central laws by finding and judging those who break laws. Modrons job is to defend and keep Mechanus working properly. They produce Inevitables to do the jobs they cannot. Inevitables are usually called back after one or two missions in order to erase their memories, in order to keep them in perfect running order, and stopping them from making any 'poor' decisions about whether or not laws need to be followed.

That sounds nice. To me modron should be exactly that, "small guys on control". Not sure about the mind erasing thing thought...


Oh and if I feel like stealing from transformers, you get the "Unicron Inevitable" of Mechanus, piloted by Modrons

Made of cool *_*

Evil DM Mark3
2008-09-21, 11:24 AM
In my settings I always have the Inevitables and the Modrons are both artificial, the original LN outsiders are Formians. The Monitors (a group of empowered mortals who where given Mechanicus after the original plane of law and the gods of law where destroyed in a war with the Far Realm (the real big LN god's body became Mechanicus with the whole Unicron thing.)) created the Inevitables and Primus (originally a Monitor who ascended to godhood) made the Modrons. They do different things. Inevitables are sent on missions to ensure to continued stability of reality and (less officially) to settle the pet peeves of The Monitors. Modrons are there to try and repair Mechanicus and to build a perfect catalogue of all knowledge with an eventual eye to making a new universe based around LN mentality.

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-21, 11:05 PM
Actually, the modrons were released for 3.0 in a web enhancement for Manual of the Planes. It probably wouldn't be hard to update them to 3.5. I didn't find them very interesting, though, and prefer the Formians and Inevitables (the ones that make sense, anyway).

As a side note, I was hoping to get Formians in 4e but we got these weird Formorians instead, which are completely different but have almost the same name that I was confused when I first got the MM. Maybe the Formians will return in a later MM, but I forget if Mechanus even exists the same way in 4e anymore. I think it does, because I think there are Inevitables in the 4e MM already.

Colmarr
2008-09-21, 11:10 PM
IMO, Modrons suffer from "Cybermen syndrome".

They're supposed to be seen as appropriately tough, but it's hard to be concerned by something that's a TV set on legs (or in the Cybermen's case a dude in a tin-foil costume).

The inevitables were a big step forward in my opinion. I know I would poop my pampers if a Kolyarut came for me.

LibraryOgre
2008-09-21, 11:37 PM
As a side note, I was hoping to get Formians in 4e but we got these weird Formorians instead, which are completely different but have almost the same name that I was confused when I first got the MM. Maybe the Formians will return in a later MM, but I forget if Mechanus even exists the same way in 4e anymore. I think it does, because I think there are Inevitables in the 4e MM already.

Fomorians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomor)

I had the exact opposite problem when it came to 3e. I saw "Formians", read "Fomorians", and wound up saying "Who the hell are these ant-people?"

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-21, 11:48 PM
Fomorians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomor)

I had the exact opposite problem when it came to 3e. I saw "Formians", read "Fomorians", and wound up saying "Who the hell are these ant-people?"

Yeah but ants are cool. :smallbiggrin:

Ascension
2008-09-21, 11:48 PM
And this, of course, is why the ants are Formians. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid)

Well, this too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica)

Gralamin
2008-09-22, 12:17 AM
Made of cool *_*

Unfortunately not my own idea. I stole it from someone on these boards.

bosssmiley
2008-09-22, 04:01 AM
Inevitables - implacable clockwork men from gearland who monitor and enforce the laws of the universe - were written into 3E because the existing implacable clockwork men who monitored and enforced the laws of the universe (the Modrons) were too 'silly'. 'kay. :smallconfused:

Planescape and DiceFreaks didn't have any trouble making the Modrons interesting. I call failure of imagination on the part of the 3E designers. :smalltongue:

Hairb
2008-09-22, 04:13 AM
Inevitables - implacable clockwork men from gearland who monitor and enforce the laws of the universe - were written into 3E because the existing implacable clockwork men who monitored and enforced the laws of the universe (the Modrons) were too 'silly'. 'kay. :smallconfused:

Planescape and DiceFreaks didn't have any trouble making the Modrons interesting. I call failure of imagination on the part of the 3E designers. :smalltongue:

Planescape made modrons so interesting.

afroakuma
2008-09-22, 06:24 AM
Seriously, with only a very slight "seriousness" or "sobriety" tweak, modrons aren't bad at all.

And they really do fit the Mechanus niche better than the others; they're a complex pure hierarchy, and they are Mechanus' bureaucrats, something the formians would never do.

I like Formians, but I never saw that much uniqueness to them.

As for Inevitables, I love them, but they're non-hierarchical and need someone to answer to.

Planescape really did make Modrons interesting, simply because it showed what they were really up to. The old old MMII made them look ridiculous, but really, depicting Primus in that fashion was a bit absurd. "The Great Modron March," on the other hand, was excellent.

Kaiyanwang
2008-09-22, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Gralamin
Campaigns I run will have both Modrons and Inevitables. Inevitables job is to protect central laws by finding and judging those who break laws. Modrons job is to defend and keep Mechanus working properly. They produce Inevitables to do the jobs they cannot. Inevitables are usually called back after one or two missions in order to erase their memories, in order to keep them in perfect running order, and stopping them from making any 'poor' decisions about whether or not laws need to be followed.


This.

In epic games you can also imagine a "system bug" that spawns sometimes, called Anaxim. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, Modrons seem to me more odd than silly. And be odd is good for extraplanar beings, see Xorn.

charl
2008-09-22, 08:05 AM
One could always remake the Modrons slightly more serious and less silly. Instead of cubes on legs, it could be a mysteriously floating cube that communicates via telepathy, for example.

Eldan
2008-09-22, 09:06 AM
[Promotion of my favorite site]
Modrons can look cool. As an example, here's a Dekaton:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/FiannaVPC/Dekaton.jpg


On Planewalker, one of the artists drew almost the entire line of modrons. Can be found here (http://www.planewalker.com/forum/modron-art).
[/promotion.]

afroakuma
2008-09-22, 01:41 PM
Some good concepts there, but I dislike how they seem to be steampunk Borg with odd body shapes. That said, I love the look of the last three.

A lot of silliness can be avoided simply by ignoring the steretypical "stick-limbs, full feminine lips for mouths" pitfalls that much of modron art sinks into. A tridrone looking like the Masonic pyramid is much cooler than one with straw arms and the deer-in-headlights look.

Magnor Criol
2008-09-22, 02:35 PM
I must not've read the 3e web enhancement's descriptions well enough (not surprising - I just skimmed most of the fluff since I didn't have much time) but I didn't get that they're supposed to have arms or legs or whatnot at all. My mental image was exactly what afroakuma's suggesting, that of floating geometric shapes. The position and look of the eyes and mouths were harder to conceive in a serious fashion, but I definitely got "floating cube" versus "cube with stick legs".

Honestly, I don't like the look of that decatron too much - it looks too...chaotic, really. Too fleshy and disorganized. The modrons, in my opinion, need to be much cleaner, stricter, solid and clean sides...

arguskos
2008-09-22, 02:42 PM
The Modrons with limbs thing comes from a 2nd Ed. Monster Manual that had pictures of them all (drawn by someone on too many drugs, IMO). Some were truly strange (there was one that was a roulette wheel with 9-ish whip-like arms, a horde of eyes, and two stumpy feet. I never understood what that had to do with ultimate law).

Bam! Here's a basic modron from that MM. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/aprilfools_modron3.jpg)

-argus

afroakuma
2008-09-22, 03:28 PM
Yeah, that was my problem with the hierarch modrons - especially the lower castes; they looked busy, chaotic and highly silly. Another thing I disliked was the eyes on all sides thing. Look at the Masonic pyramid symbol (got an American $1 bill? It's on there.) The Egyptian eye on that? Stick one on each side of a base modron. Looks more ordered and less pulpy clay beastie.

But yeah, you're thinking of either the nonaton or decaton. And I have NEVER seen a non-silly illustration of a decaton.

Look at the hexon pic from that thread, make it look just a bit more "lawful" and you actually have a very cool planar denizen.

As for me, the fleshy, yellow etc. would have to go. While I don't like the steampunk/clockwork look to the modrons, I would still prefer that they be chrome and other metallic shades. They should also be smart enough to wear armor (there was a really good monodrone image with armor in... oh, Dragon 272. LONG time ago.)

But no, I never envisioned floating shapes. Otherwise everyone arriving on Mechanus would panic: "Oh no! Hordes of retarded, cyclopean beholders!"

arguskos
2008-09-22, 03:33 PM
Yeah, that was my problem with the hierarch modrons - especially the lower castes; they looked busy, chaotic and highly silly. Another thing I disliked was the eyes on all sides thing. Look at the Masonic pyramid symbol (got an American $1 bill? It's on there.) The Egyptian eye on that? Stick one on each side of a base modron. Looks more ordered and less pulpy clay beastie.

But yeah, you're thinking of either the nonaton or decaton. And I have NEVER seen a non-silly illustration of a decaton.

Look at the hexon pic from that thread, make it look just a bit more "lawful" and you actually have a very cool planar denizen.

As for me, the fleshy, yellow etc. would have to go. While I don't like the steampunk/clockwork look to the modrons, I would still prefer that they be chrome and other metallic shades. They should also be smart enough to wear armor (there was a really good monodrone image with armor in... oh, Dragon 272. LONG time ago.)

But no, I never envisioned floating shapes. Otherwise everyone arriving on Mechanus would panic: "Oh no! Hordes of retarded, cyclopean beholders!"
Someone around here *looks at decent homebrewers* needs to update the Modrons for 3.x properly, you know, using LOGIC and stuff, rather than "Oh look, a roulette wheel with eyes, it must be Lawful, let's talk to it." :smallmad:

Also, does a database of those old pics exist? I'd love to see them and laugh again.

-argus

afroakuma
2008-09-22, 03:37 PM
When I find time (should be able to, LATE shifts at work all week) I'll take a crack at it. Be warned: remodeling will be afoot.

Magnor Criol
2008-09-22, 03:40 PM
Someone around here *looks at decent homebrewers* needs to update the Modrons for 3.x properly, you know, using LOGIC and stuff, rather than "Oh look, a roulette wheel with eyes, it must be Lawful, let's talk to it." :smallmad:

Also, does a database of those old pics exist? I'd love to see them and laugh again.

-argus

They were updated for 3.x, as long as you're not picky about the "x". Specifically, they released a Web Enhancement for...was it Manual of the Planes? Must've been, as it it was 3.0 - that had the modrons in it.


Look at the hexon pic from that thread, make it look just a bit more "lawful" and you actually have a very cool planar denizen.

As for me, the fleshy, yellow etc. would have to go. While I don't like the steampunk/clockwork look to the modrons, I would still prefer that they be chrome and other metallic shades. They should also be smart enough to wear armor (there was a really good monodrone image with armor in... oh, Dragon 272. LONG time ago.)

But no, I never envisioned floating shapes. Otherwise everyone arriving on Mechanus would panic: "Oh no! Hordes of retarded, cyclopean beholders!"

Yeah, the fleshy yellow bits on those pics are probably what turns me off the most from them, I think. The Hexon and Pentadrone look pretty cool, and the Triodrone and Octon would look good without the fleshy lips & eyes, but the others are strange.

...also, isn't "cyclopean beholders" redundant? =p

arguskos
2008-09-22, 03:50 PM
They were updated for 3.x, as long as you're not picky about the "x". Specifically, they released a Web Enhancement for...was it Manual of the Planes? Must've been, as it it was 3.0 - that had the modrons in it.
I've read that update, and was seriously unimpressed. The power level rocketed up (the hierarchy modrons were insanely powerful), they still look stupid, and it felt over-all tacked on. Not like something they actually cared about doing in any way at all.

-argus

afroakuma
2008-09-22, 03:53 PM
Well, when I said cyclopean, I was referring to a lack of OTHER eyes.

And yeah the pentadrone would look great were it not for the foolish steam whistle on top. Bad enough that it probably rolls along like a star.

Duodrones - I think that was pretty interpretative on the artist's part.

I think modrons should have carried some connotation of eastern mythologies - Egyptian and Hindu, specifically. It would add to their "lawful" aspect in a more relatable way, and catch a niche that's not as heavily covered in D&D creatures.

That said: not going that way when I redo them.

And yeah, when making a free product, one tends to do it on the half-bum.