On the topic of meeting in the afterlife [Spoilers]

[mockingbyrd7]

Many people have hypothesized that Roy and Miko are going to meet in Celestia, a.k.a. Lawful Good heaven. But Soon's speech in 464 - to me anyways - implied that Miko wasn't going to the same place the paladins go, a.k.a. Lawful Good heaven. This seems to imply that Miko was Lawful Neutral at the time of her death, which matches up nicely.

Therkla's final comics showed her trying to make sure that everyone she cared about got out unharmed and that the whole stupid feud would just end peacefully. When Kubota declined that offer, she allied with the good guys and tried to arrest Kubota - again in the hopes that nobody she loved would be hurt. I think we're all in agreement that Therkla was originally Lawful Evil, but this turn of events seemed to mark her making a turn for the better. Perhaps at the time of her death, she was Lawful Neutral.

So we've got two insane Lawful Neutral chicks in the same place: an overzealous fallen paladin and a semi-redeemed ninja assassin. Do the math. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I foresee weird fanfic approaching :smallbiggrin:

[Tempest Fennac]

I think Paladins go to a different part of Celestia in normal D&D to everyone else, so Miko could still end up in the same part of Celestia as Roy.

[chiasaur11]

Many people have hypothesized that Roy and Miko are going to meet in Celestia, a.k.a. Lawful Good heaven. But Soon's speech in 464 - to me anyways - implied that Miko wasn't going to the same place the paladins go, a.k.a. Lawful Good heaven. This seems to imply that Miko was Lawful Neutral at the time of her death, which matches up nicely.

Therkla's final comics showed her trying to make sure that everyone she cared about got out unharmed and that the whole stupid feud would just end peacefully. When Kubota declined that offer, she allied with the good guys and tried to arrest Kubota - again in the hopes that nobody she loved would be hurt. I think we're all in agreement that Therkla was originally Lawful Evil, but this turn of events seemed to mark her making a turn for the better. Perhaps at the time of her death, she was Lawful Neutral.

So we've got two insane Lawful Neutral chicks in the same place: an overzealous fallen paladin and a semi-redeemed ninja assassin. Do the math. :smallbiggrin:

She's a half orc ninja who died stopping her evil lord.

She's a fallen paladin who can't admit to being wrong.

They're cops.

[Chronos]

Paladins in OotS go to the same Celestia as everyone else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html).

[King of Nowhere]

I don't understand why many people consider Therkla lawful; the only reson I can think of are 1) that Therkla was loial to Kubota for seven years, but she considered him her friend, and most chaotic people are loial to their friends, and 2) that her boss Kubota is LE, but I don't think you have to share an alignment with your boss only because you work for him.
To me Therkla is chaotic. The way she shifted side with Elan, yet she wanted for all the people she cared for to stay unharmed despite her arrangemen is against every law, tradition, command, or what she was supposed to do, that's chaotic to me.
In the last five minutes of her life, she standed between Kubota and Elan, she was likely chaotic neutral. She repented about not acting lawful good when she was already poisoned, in the last five rounds of her life, top.
If I were her deva, and I see her repentance as sincere, I would send her to CN. There she may maybe meet Hylgia or Samanta's father (both were borderline between CN and CE).

[David Argall]

I don't understand why many people consider Therkla lawful; the only reson I can think of are 1) that Therkla was loial to Kubota for seven years, but she considered him her friend, and most chaotic people are loial to their friends,
Chaotics are not loyal to anyone. That is their nature. They are merely not actively disloyal to friends as opposed to things like governments.


and 2) that her boss Kubota is LE, but I don't think you have to share an alignment with your boss only because you work for him.
You have spent years doing what your boss says. Of course you share your boss' alignment. No other would accept your behavior at all. We can talk about the reluctant employee, but Therkla shows no sign of that. Sacrifice the entire party? Just so long as it doesn't include Elan...



In the last five minutes of her life, she standed between Kubota and Elan,
The very fact we are talking about just a few minutes should be enough to warn us it may not be enough to change her alignment at all.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Paladins in OotS go to the same Celestia as everyone else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html).

True, but the waiting areas (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) are segregated. Since we haven't seen Miko meet up with Roy yet, I doubt we will at some point in the future; besides, Miko served a very specific role in the story and is now finished. She, like Therkla, don't have much continued value in a narrative sense.

Now, the final destination of Miko is interesting. It has been noted that one's piety is important (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), if you are Divinely linked, and I'm guessing that unrepentant, fallen Paladins are going to be given a rough time on Celestia. Miko's falling act was neither Good (slaying an unarmed man who posed no current threat to anyone) nor Lawful (refusing to go through the courts, even if you think the courts are corrupt), so she may be sent to the Outlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlands) as punishment.

Still, I don't think the Evil afterlives are so quick to kick people out - unlike the Good and Neutral ones, nobody does well in the various Hells. So Therkla is probably in one of them (I'm leaning LE, so Baator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baator)) and maybe be regretting her decision to refuse being raised.

[Chronos]

True, but the waiting areas are segregated.That's just by geography, though, not by class. Note that we have a paladin and a cleric waiting in the same line as a bunch of warriors.


It has been noted that one's piety is important, if you are Divinely linked,No, it's just been noted that piety isn't important in Roy's case. It doesn't say anything about whether it's important for anyone else.


Still, I don't think the Evil afterlives are so quick to kick people out - unlike the Good and Neutral ones, nobody does well in the various Hells. So Therkla is probably in one of them (I'm leaning LE, so Baator) and maybe be regretting her decision to refuse being raised.If they even have a claim on her. She might have shifted to neutral, just before the end, in which case she might get by with someplace considerably more pleasant than Baator. I'm guessing that people first show up to the waiting area corresponding to what they think they are, and if they don't qualify, they take it from there: Roy considers himself Lawful Good, so he goes to the Celestia waiting area, but Therkla probably does not consider herself evil (few people do).

[Oracle_Hunter]

That's just by geography, though, not by class. Note that we have a paladin and a cleric waiting in the same line as a bunch of warriors.

And both Miko and Therkla are Southern, while OotS is Northern. They're still not going to meet up.


If they even have a claim on her. She might have shifted to neutral, just before the end, in which case she might get by with someplace considerably more pleasant than Baator. I'm guessing that people first show up to the waiting area corresponding to what they think they are, and if they don't qualify, they take it from there: Roy considers himself Lawful Good, so he goes to the Celestia waiting area, but Therkla probably does not consider herself evil (few people do).

I guess the Outlands gets a lot of business then :smalltongue:

I'd be surprised if, Game Savvy as everyone is in OotS, they were that confused about their actual alignment. Even Miko was correct in her alignment - she just had problems "going about it efficiently" as the Deva would say. Heck, I imagine Therkla expects to end up in one of the Evil afterlives, if she gave it much thought. Surely a lifetime of contract killings of innocents outweighs one attempt of having one's cake while eating it too :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

Paladins in OotS go to the same Celestia as everyone else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html).

Seeing as he weilds a Glowing Black Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), it is likely that he isn't actually a Paladin... possibly a Duskblade. ((That scene makes it evident that not everyone in the Sapphire Guard is a Paladin, there are several obvious magic-users in the ranks))

[Oracle_Hunter]

Seeing as he weilds a Glowing Black Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), it is likely that he isn't actually a Paladin... possibly a Duskblade. ((That scene makes it evident that not everyone in the Sapphire Guard is a Paladin, there are several obvious magic-users in the ranks))

I would be surprised if there was a special Paladin Celestia, with a velvet rope and a sign reading "a stick must be this far up your butt to enter" :smalltongue:

I think it's more important to note that after entry screening, all LG types that get into Celestia, go to the same Celestia.

[lordofthe_wog]

Seeing as he weilds a Glowing Black Sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), it is likely that he isn't actually a Paladin... possibly a Duskblade. ((That scene makes it evident that not everyone in the Sapphire Guard is a Paladin, there are several obvious magic-users in the ranks))

But those magic-users aren't raised as positive energy ghost things, and as Soon says "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)", implying that the only paladins were going to be ghost things (Which do-rag man is shown as being.) As for the glowing black blade, Hinjo's sword is similar in color, and throw on a bless spell and you're good to go.

[MReav]

The Sapphire Guard is home to numerous paladin multi-classes. Miko and O-Chul were a Monk and Fighter respectively before their induction.

Besides, that's cold iron if anything.

[Enlong]

She's a half orc ninja who died stopping her evil lord.

She's a fallen paladin who can't admit to being wrong.

They fight crime. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyFightCrime)
Fixed. :smallcool:

[Blue Ghost]

Personally, I think Therkla was no longer evil when she died (I'm not intending to start any arguments here). I think it would really cool though if Therkla ended up in the same afterlife as Kubota. She has expressed that she was no longer loyal to Kubota in her death speech, and I think it would be a fitting punishment for Kubota to have Therkla beating him up for eternity.

[Warren Dew]

I'm guessing that people first show up to the waiting area corresponding to what they think they are, and if they don't qualify, they take it from there: Roy considers himself Lawful Good, so he goes to the Celestia waiting area, but Therkla probably does not consider herself evil (few people do).

Therkla thinks she's going to get punished in the afterlife, so it seems she does think she's evil.

I'd bet there are bureaucratic rules to prevent the evil afterlife screeners from letting clearly nonevil people in, though.

And, uh, no, not all of us think Therkla started as lawful evil. I don't think Kubota can possibly be lawful, and I don't think Therkla was, either.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And, uh, no, not all of us think Therkla started as lawful evil. I don't think Kubota can possibly be lawful, and I don't think Therkla was, either.

How would you define Lawful Evil? 'cause when I look at Lord Kubota, that's what I see.

Also:

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

EDIT:
Therkla's a difficult case, of course, but it's clear she was trained to be Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html). Considering her strong loyalty to Lord Kubota I'd be willing to say she is also LE, though NE is a distinct possibility. I would not put her a Chaotic-anything, nor at NN. At no point did she do anything for any good greater than herself.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'd say Kubota was obviously Lawful Evil. He twists the law to his purpose, he commits crimes only when it furthers his interests, he's prototypical LE to me.

[King of Nowhere]

Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
I don't understand why many people consider Therkla lawful; the only reson I can think of are 1) that Therkla was loial to Kubota for seven years, but she considered him her friend, and most chaotic people are loial to their friends,

Chaotics are not loyal to anyone. That is their nature. They are merely not actively disloyal to friends as opposed to things like governments.

Apparently your definitions for the alignments are very different from mine. Since there aren't precise definitions, I won't argue about that, but it seems in the alignments Rich is using chaotic can be loyal; both Haley and Elan showed loyalty to other people.



Quote:
Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
and 2) that her boss Kubota is LE, but I don't think you have to share an alignment with your boss only because you work for him.
You have spent years doing what your boss says. Of course you share your boss' alignment. No other would accept your behavior at all. We can talk about the reluctant employee, but Therkla shows no sign of that. Sacrifice the entire party? Just so long as it doesn't include Elan...

I don't know where you work, but I don't think you are forced somehow to share the alignemnt of your boss. And, in case you are a boss, I find unlikely that all of your underlings share your alignment.
Anyway, if two people with opposite alignments can marry and stay together long enough to give birth to two twins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), it's also possible that Therkla and Kubota worked together and were friends for years without sharing alignments.

[Chronos]

And both Miko and Therkla are Southern, while OotS is Northern. They're still not going to meet up.Assuming you mean Miko and Roy, I agree: If they were going to, it would have happened already. I'm just saying that the reason they wouldn't meet up isn't just that she's an (ex-)paladin, or that she's Southern and he's Northern. I suspect that the reason they didn't meet (consistent with Soon's last words to her) is that she's in a different plane, due to an alignment shift. Which does at least lend credence to the OP's idea that Miko and Therkla might end up in the same place.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Assuming you mean Miko and Roy, I agree: If they were going to, it would have happened already. I'm just saying that the reason they wouldn't meet up isn't just that she's an (ex-)paladin, or that she's Southern and he's Northern. I suspect that the reason they didn't meet (consistent with Soon's last words to her) is that she's in a different plane, due to an alignment shift. Which does at least lend credence to the OP's idea that Miko and Therkla might end up in the same place.If they do, I doubt it will be in any of the aligned planes. Rather, it will be in a giant amphitheater, where the 12 gods debate over which alignment they fall under. Rich ends up being hunted down by annoyed forumites no matter how it is ruled.

[Draz74]

I don't think Kubota can possibly be lawful, and I don't think Therkla was, either.

I'm going to throw my vote in with the people that are saying Kubota is a perfect, paragon example of stereotypical Lawful Evil.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I foresee weird fanfic approaching :smallbiggrin:

How did you get inside my mind? By the way, sorry about all that filth, I've been meaning to clean up in there.

[Raging Gene Ray]

In the light of the last comic...could Kubota and Therkla meet in the afterlife?

[Oracle_Hunter]

In the light of the last comic...could Kubota and Therkla meet in the afterlife?

Almost certainly. I bet it'll be an interesting meeting too :smallbiggrin:

[DraPrime]

I foresee horrible erotica being drawn involving Therkla's meeting with Miko if it ever happens.

[Raging Gene Ray]

You know, it doesn't have to happen in comic for it to be drawn...

Back to Kubota and Therkla meeting:
I think it might be possible that Kubota gets sent to wherever his kind goes. Therkla sees this and is sentenced to go to the same plane. Not wanting to be assoicated with Kubota in any way, she begs for a chance to redeem herself...at least until such a point she knows she won't share a plane with Kubota.

Seriously, though, both Miko and Therkla had poignant deaths. Bringing either one back would lessen the impact of those deaths, even if we already know there is an afterlife.

[T.Titan]

Chaotics are not loyal to anyone. That is their nature.


Only if you define loyalty as a sense of duty instead of just sticking with your friends because you like them...

[bue52]

Has every forgotten about what that angel girl thingy said to Roy? What matters is that you keep trying. Sure Therkla may not have been Neutral all this while, and definitely, if we go by acts alone, we can't really say she has "atoned" herself. However, she does keep trying to keep everyone she loves safe, which I think, would say a lot. Rather than her being evil.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Has every forgotten about what that angel girl thingy said to Roy? What matters is that you keep trying. Sure Therkla may not have been Neutral all this while, and definitely, if we go by acts alone, we can't really say she has "atoned" herself. However, she does keep trying to keep everyone she loves safe, which I think, would say a lot. Rather than her being evil.

Psh, maybe in the airy-fairy "good" afterlives that's how they do it, but I'm pretty sure the "evil" afterlives don't give points for trying :smallamused:

[David Argall]

chaotic can be loyal; both Haley and Elan showed loyalty to other people.
Can be, of course. [One problem with defining chaotic is that anything can be.] But as with "The battle is not always to the strong, nor the race to the swift, but that's the way to bet." showing loyalty is a sign of lawful alignment.



I don't think you are forced somehow to share the alignemnt of your boss.
It is rather hard to say you are opposed when you have been doing what he wanted and taking his money. You would face the same criminal charges.



Anyway, if two people with opposite alignments can marry and stay together long enough to give birth to two twins (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html), it's also possible that Therkla and Kubota worked together and were friends for years without sharing alignments.
Marriage and family is not of itself an alignment issue. They deal with each other, not with others. Kubota sent Therkla off to deal with "innocent" people and so Therkla shares the same alignment damage.
We of course also have the relatively minor point that the marriage broke up, probably within 2-3 years, while Kubota and Therkla were still going strong after 7.

[T.Titan]

showing loyalty is a sign of lawful alignment.



Again: Only if you define loyalty as a sense of duty instead of just sticking with your friends because you like them...

[Elfey]

Has every forgotten about what that angel girl thingy said to Roy? What matters is that you keep trying. Sure Therkla may not have been Neutral all this while, and definitely, if we go by acts alone, we can't really say she has "atoned" herself. However, she does keep trying to keep everyone she loves safe, which I think, would say a lot. Rather than her being evil.

I think the issue here is that Miko's actions didn't redeem her. Her intents are also warped as her inability to admit fault and her crazed actions killed her liege lord then made all sorts of crazy explanations.