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its_all_ogre
2008-09-21, 02:08 PM
i mean as a defender when compared to the fighter?
i cannot see why you would have on in the party in place of a fighter.
with combat superiority, +1 to hit, wisdom mod added to opportunity attacks, single stat (str) rather than two (str/cha) to choose from, multiple marking etc
what does the paladin have, apart from plate and healing hands, that would entice you to play one?

Starsinger
2008-09-21, 02:13 PM
i mean as a defender when compared to the fighter?
i cannot see why you would have on in the party in place of a fighter.
with combat superiority, +1 to hit, wisdom mod added to opportunity attacks, single stat (str) rather than two (str/cha) to choose from, multiple marking etc
what does the paladin have, apart from plate and healing hands, that would entice you to play one?

The damage from Divine Challenge has no range limit. Paladins have abilities to take damage for an ally. IIRC Hospitaler's PP features make enemy AoEs a lot more bearable.

Grynning
2008-09-21, 02:13 PM
Plate and Lay on Hands are pretty significant, and don't forget Channel Divinity. Also they have a lot of very good attack powers, so they're not significantly worse than the Fighter. Plus, by using Cha based powers they can be built with almost no investment in Strength, so if you want to be a Defender from a race like Half-elves, Gnomes or Halflings you can.

RTGoodman
2008-09-21, 02:15 PM
Paladins and Fighters may both be Defenders, but they focus on entirely different things. Fighters get abilities to stop foes in their tracks, do more damage on average, and stuff like that, but Paladins get more healing and buffing abilities than just "healing hands." A Paladin is, as a lot have noted, sort of like a Defender/Leader, while a Fighter is a Defender/Striker. They play different because they have different focuses. Paladins also have some attacks that don't focus on AC, I believe, and do things a Fighter can't do regarding conditions and buffs and such.

Also, note that Fighters CAN rely on just Str, but your weapon choice also gives you another ability score to focus on that determines how well some powers work. So you've got one to focus on, but high scores in other non-Str stats are never bad. I mean, you're going to want a decent score in at least one of (Int or Dex) and (Wis or Cha) anyway for your defenses, so you might as well use 'em as best you can. Finally, multiclassing NEVER hurts in 4E, so having a high Cha as a Paladin along with Str opens up more beneficial multiclass choices (Warlock, for instance).

Also, Paladins, to me anyway, are much cooler flavor-wise, but I like the Fighter, too (in 4E).

Starbuck_II
2008-09-21, 02:18 PM
i mean as a defender when compared to the fighter?
i cannot see why you would have on in the party in place of a fighter.
with combat superiority, +1 to hit, wisdom mod added to opportunity attacks, single stat (str) rather than two (str/cha) to choose from, multiple marking etc
what does the paladin have, apart from plate and healing hands, that would entice you to play one?

Fighters are Defenders with Striker side abilities.
Paladins are Defenders with Leader side abilities.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-21, 02:19 PM
Defense
In terms of taking hits, the Paladin is the best there is - Plate, Lay on Hands (for extra surges!), and Bolstering Strike (for proactive healing) all make the Paladin the tankiest class there is.

Control
While Fighters have very good marking ability generally, the Paladin is excellent at locking down an individual baddie. Divine Challenge not only puts a -2 to hit your allies, but it will shock the baddie if he tries to do it anyways. For cheese, you can equip your Paladin with a sling or javelins and keep the baddie locked down from afar.

Healing
Paladins have lots of abilities which can buff their allies or take hits for them. They are basically mini-Leaders, and that can make them nice to have around.

Also: they have one of the best anti-undead at-wills out there (Holy Strike), and some more "magical" PPs.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-21, 02:19 PM
A Paladin is, as a lot have noted, sort of like a Defender/Leader, while a Fighter is a Defender/Striker.

Gah, I wanted to say that.

Apart from what everyone else already said, I firmly believe that paladins have much better dailies at-wills than fighters, especially in the tanking aspect - look at Enfeebling Strike.

RTGoodman
2008-09-21, 02:30 PM
Gah, I wanted to say that.

Apart from what everyone else already said, I firmly believe that paladins have much better dailies than fighters, especially in the tanking aspect - look at Enfeebling Strike.

I DO like the dailies for Paladins, but I think I prefer Reliable daily powers (a la the Fighter) to those that have partial effect on a miss. That's just me though.

Also, one other thing I don't like about higher-level Paladins is that they throw in a bunch of Implement powers, which makes things hard for weapon-based Paladins, Paladins that go sword-and-board, or Paladins that multiclass into other classes that have different implements (like my Paladin/Warlock, who'll never try to take any powers that require a holy symbol because of the waste of actions to switch between weapons, holy symbols, and rods). I guess a holy avenger sort of works, but around levels 5-10 that's a little harder to work around. (I hoped the Pact weapons from AV would fix that, but those require you to be a specific race to use them as an implement, which SUCKS).

EDIT @\/: Yeah, the at-wills are pretty cool, too. :smalltongue: Valiant Strike is really cool just because of the cinematics of it. Like I said, though, most of the cooler powers are implement powers, which I don't particularly like for aforementioned reasons.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-21, 02:31 PM
Damn! I meant at-wills, not dailies.

NEO|Phyte
2008-09-21, 02:35 PM
(like my Paladin/Warlock, who'll never try to take any powers that require a holy symbol because of the waste of actions to switch between weapons, holy symbols, and rods)

Errr, why would you need to switch between them? You don't need to be holding a holy symbol to use it, you just need to have it visibly displayed.

RTGoodman
2008-09-21, 02:38 PM
Errr, why would you need to switch between them? You don't need to be holding a holy symbol to use it, you just need to have it visibly displayed.

Oh gods! That's right! I had no idea about that until I just looked it up. That makes everything so much better! :smallredface:


EDIT: Also,


For cheese, you can equip your Paladin with a sling or javelins and keep the baddie locked down from afar.

Don't almost all Paladin attacks have the Melee Weapon keyword? If so, I don't think your devious plan works.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-21, 02:51 PM
Don't almost all Paladin attacks have the Melee Weapon keyword? If so, I don't think your devious plan works.

Doesn't matter for renewing a Divine Challenge. You can use this on Solos you don't want to go toe-to-toe with; doing 3+CHA damage per turn OR forcing the solo to chase you around is probably worth giving up an at-will.

No, it doesn't work all the time, but it's a fine way to really annoy someone who'd prefer to be dropping AoEs or big melee attacks instead. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-09-21, 03:20 PM
Agreed. In fact, I love doing this as a Warlock. I use Divine Challenge on big Baddie, then I spam Eyebite to turn Invisible against it and enjoy the damage it has to take because it can't hit me.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-21, 03:40 PM
Doesn't matter for renewing a Divine Challenge. You can use this on Solos you don't want to go toe-to-toe with; doing 3+CHA damage per turn OR forcing the solo to chase you around is probably worth giving up an at-will.

No, it doesn't work all the time, but it's a fine way to really annoy someone who'd prefer to be dropping AoEs or big melee attacks instead. :smallbiggrin:

They only take the Radiant damage the first time they disobey you. After that, its just a -2 penalty. And you can't use DC on the same guy twice to renew the damage punishment.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-21, 03:43 PM
Agreed. In fact, I love doing this as a Warlock. I use Divine Challenge on big Baddie, then I spam Eyebite to turn Invisible against it and enjoy the damage it has to take because it can't hit me.

This is why I house-ruled that MC Paladin's Divine Challenge only lasts until the end of your next turn, to keep it more in line with the other MC powers.

Still, a Paladin with Quick Draw and a decent range thrown weapon can turtle up quite nicely when facing, say, a solo dragon... or better yet, solo undead :smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

They only take the Radiant damage the first time they disobey you. After that, its just a -2 penalty. And you can't use DC on the same guy twice to renew the damage punishment.

I am not so sure. The relevant passage:

While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn.

Emphasis mine. It seems to indicate it only takes the radiant damage 1/round at most. In any case, there is nothing that says you can't re-mark the same baddie the next round since "A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place."

Frosty
2008-09-21, 03:45 PM
This is why I house-ruled that MC Paladin's Divine Challenge only lasts until the end of your next turn, to keep it more in line with the other MC powers:

Yeah that'd suck. Only reason why I MC'ed into Paladin is to become a secondary defender. It is utterly *worthless* if it only lasts for one turn. Worthless you hear?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-21, 03:50 PM
Yeah that'd suck. Only reason why I MC'ed into Paladin is to become a secondary defender. It is utterly *worthless* if it only lasts for one turn. Worthless you hear?

All the MC Rangers out there are playing a sorrowful tune for you on the world's largest collection of tiny violins :smalltongue:

The MC Ranger errata is what caused me to rethink the MC Paladin, you see. I can't see why you would allow one, but not the other, particularly when any Ranger, Warlock, or Wizard can abuse the heck out of a persistent Mark.

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-21, 03:52 PM
Emphasis mine. It seems to indicate it only takes the radiant damage 1/round at most. In any case, there is nothing that says you can't re-mark the same baddie the next round since "A new mark supersedes a mark that was already in place."

Look at the Special: heading on Divine Challenge. It reads:

You can't place a divine challenge on a creature that is already affected by your or another character's divine challenge.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-21, 03:54 PM
Look at the Special: heading on Divine Challenge. It reads:

Touche

Though I still think the CHA damage comes back at the start of each turn, according to the language I cited.

Oslecamo
2008-09-21, 03:57 PM
The funny thing is that the paladin was suposed to be a defended/leader hybrid, but the fighter was suposed to be a pure defender.

Grynning
2008-09-21, 04:08 PM
Though I still think the CHA damage comes back at the start of each turn, according to the language I cited.

I agree, the ability says the first time this turn, not the first time, period. The ability would be greatly inferior to fighter marking if the damage only occurred once.

Artanis
2008-09-21, 04:13 PM
The funny thing is that the paladin was suposed to be a defended/leader hybrid, but the fighter was suposed to be a pure defender.
All the pre-release info I remember pointed to it being a Defender/Striker hybrid.


Edit: "it" meaning the Fighter.

mangosta71
2008-09-21, 05:02 PM
The one thing that kinda bugs me about paladins - the other classes have abilities that have different effects based on which style you pick at character generation.

nightwyrm
2008-09-21, 10:33 PM
The one thing that kinda bugs me about paladins - the other classes have abilities that have different effects based on which style you pick at character generation.

The clerics doesn't either. Maybe the divine classes are supposed to have the divine feats to make up for it.

erikun
2008-09-21, 10:53 PM
I was under the impression that Divine Challange renewed when you attacked/stood next to the target. At least, I believe that's RAI. I don't know if you can pull that out of RAW, though.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-09-21, 11:14 PM
Well the thing about the Paladin's Challenge is that it ends when you do not attempt to engage the enemy, by either moving closer or attacking it. So the damage may or may not renew as long as the challenge remains, but simply changing targets for one turn allows you the ability to renew it. After all, a Paladin is best when up front. So, you go up to the two orcs, attack one, and use Divine Challenge, next turn just hit the other one.

its_all_ogre
2008-09-22, 12:47 PM
cha build paladins get kicked in the nuts frankly because opportunity attacks still use strength as the key stat, so halfling paladins are going to lose out if they make a cha build when compared to the str build.

maybe it pans out at higher levels (level 9 when all the powers are cha based for example) but this is bad game design and i just do not see much that makes up for this.

the paladin challenge thing is quite simple to work around: two bad guys, hit one and mark the other, so long as you're adjacent they will both likely attack you.

does not stop them shifting like a fighter does. you can only mark one enemy per turn unlike a fighter. if you boost cha as well as str and wisdom you end up with lower stats compared to the fighter.
+1AC for plate and healing hands does not help enough in my opinion as healing hands is a minor action and so is divine challenge so if you use healing hands you must lose the marking ability or lose your move action.

meaning you are locked down as much as your opponent is.

Theodoric
2008-09-22, 01:01 PM
And they'se also this little thing called 'Gift of Life'. A free, nigh instant Raise Dead? Yes, please. (okay, you need to get to the target first, and you yourself take plenty of damage, but still)

its_all_ogre
2008-09-22, 01:04 PM
i must have missed that in their level 1 abilities description...

1of3
2008-09-22, 01:10 PM
Yes, the target will get the damage once per turn for as long as it remains challenged. Just compare other formulations like the one in KotS or the D&D XP characters. (The latter were still missing the "challenge or end" conditions.)


Nevertheless, Paladins are great. Of course, Swordmages have a better mark, but if they go down only once, their AC falls dramatically. Fighters may do more damage and be a menace to groups of mobile enemies but...

- Paladins have more Armor Class than the others (without further investment).
- Paladins have Lay on Hands. (Remember you can use it on yourself.)
- Paladins have buffs and debuffs.
- Paladins have Divine Mettle, one of the Channel Divinities. That one can save lives. (People tend to forget it. Even the Paladin girl in the WotC video missed it, but it is that great.)
- Paladins have four trained skills. (Fighters have only three.)


I'd prefer a Paladin over a Fighter.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-22, 01:42 PM
cha build paladins get kicked in the nuts frankly because opportunity attacks still use strength as the key stat, so halfling paladins are going to lose out if they make a cha build when compared to the str build.

Heh, most people would argue it's the STR pallies who get whacked - look at all the CHA powers Paladins have! At least a CHA paladin can take Blade Opportunist (+2 for OAs = +4 Strength!) to make up for it :smallamused:

No, Paladins are quite good, but they are different from Fighters. They lock down one guy, and lock him down hard. Plus they have tons of other annoying powers that will likely keep the baddies on him (including a teleport-smash which can be fun!).

Fawsto
2008-09-22, 03:43 PM
I am almost completely unaware of the 4th ed, since it has not arrived here in Brazil (not in Portuguese, and I am not reading three rulebooks in english again), but I heard that the Pally isn't able to use Lay on Hands on himself this time. True?

ColdSepp
2008-09-22, 03:46 PM
I am almost completely unaware of the 4th ed, since it has not arrived here in Brazil (not in Portuguese, and I am not reading three rulebooks in english again), but I heard that the Pally isn't able to use Lay on Hands on himself this time. True?

Paladins can use it on themself.

ninja_penguin
2008-09-22, 09:24 PM
Don't forget that with the exception of the at-will powers, a lot of the CHA-based paladin attacks start targeting non-AC defenses, which is pretty useful, or at least seems so to me. (I'm running a Paladin next to a Warlord and a Fighter, so maybe I'm just happy that I can attack non-AC defenses for when the monsters are heavily armored)

Colmarr
2008-09-22, 10:03 PM
Heh, most people would argue it's the STR pallies who get whacked - look at all the CHA powers Paladins have! At least a CHA paladin can take Blade Opportunist (+2 for OAs = +4 Strength!) to make up for it :smallamused:

I asked this question in another thread (and it sank without a trace) so I'll ask it again here because it's on point.

Swordmages have "Intelligent Blademaster" that allows them to use Intelligence for basic attacks. Does anyone think it would be unbalancing to create a homebrew feat that allows Paladins to use Cha for basic attacks?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-22, 10:17 PM
I asked this question in another thread (and it sank without a trace) so I'll ask it again here because it's on point.

Swordmages have "Intelligent Blademaster" that allows them to use Intelligence for basic attacks. Does anyone think it would be unbalancing to create a homebrew feat that allows Paladins to use Cha for basic attacks?

*grumble* god, the more I learn about Swordmages, the less I like them. Didn't WotC learn anything from 3e?

If you're going to have Swordmages with that ability, then you might as well give it to Paladins too. That way all three Defenders can OA most efficiently.

RTGoodman
2008-09-22, 10:27 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with it in the realm of balance, but I do have a problem with it flavor-wise - I understand your clarity in battle (Wis) or quick wits (Int) allowing you to make opportunity attacks more effectively, but I don't know how force of personality would help. I might allow it if it was a more divine-themed thing - maybe a Paragon feats called "Divine Opportunity" or something that lets you use Cha for basic attacks, but all damage done is radiant or something. I don't know if that's too powerful, but it doesn't make sense to me to use Cha for attacks that aren't divine in nature.


*grumble* god, the more I learn about Swordmages, the less I like them. Didn't WotC learn anything from 3e?


I've never been a fan of gishes, and I'm just not that impressed by the Swordmage (though, admittedly, that's just based on the preview since I won't spend money of FR stuff). I don't know about the balance of it, but if it's overpowered I'm gonna chalk it up to fanservice of a sort.

Colmarr
2008-09-22, 10:27 PM
*grumble* god, the more I learn about Swordmages, the less I like them. Didn't WotC learn anything from 3e?


I initially had the same though too. My god, didn't they learn?! I ultimately think it's a way to make Aegis of Assault a valid power. After all, if all AoA does is allow the Swordmage to teleport and then make a (likely to miss) basic attack, it's nowhere near as powerful a deterrent as the fighter or paladin abilities.

I can see the mechanical need for it, but I think that either (a) the feat should apply only to AoA basic attacks or (b) there should be a similar feat for all other defender classes with non-Str attack abilities (currently only Paladin).

But thanks for the answer.

Awesomologist
2008-09-22, 11:36 PM
My group has played with a Fighter, a Paladin, and we're just getting to work on the Swordmage. So far we've found the Fighter to be a True Defender (sword and board style) or a Defender/DPR-Striker (Two-Handed). By DPR I mean Damage-Per-Round. With reliable powers and feats and items that enhance your AoO's they do a pretty consistent damage per round, as opposed to Strikers that do their damage in bursts (ultimately more damaging).

The Paladin is almost always a Defender/Leader. Strength based still do sufficient damage per round at the cost of other skills such as buffs, debuffs, and heals. Go with Charisma and you sacrifice some damage. the thing you have to be able to get over is that you're not there to lay down the most damage. Leave that to your striker! We found the Paladin to have a few more synergies with our strikers (Rogue and Two Weapon Ranger) and less reliant on our Leader.

So far the Swordmage appears to be a Defender/Controller. Damage is higher but tends to be more spread out amongst multiple targets. We didn't find it as effective as a frontline defender, but we've only play tested the Assault Swordmage. The Assault style seems to work great as a second defender, one who can jump in and fill a hole. Their powers have them teleporting all over the battlefield which we figure works best with a ranged striker (Archer Ranger or Warlock). They are VERY reliant on the leader though. What they do in extra damage is off set by their inconsistent defense.

Overall it seems to be a personal preference combined with party needs that will shape how you feel about each class. If you ever want to try stuff out I suggest working with your DM and play testing various builds in one shot encounters.

Namillus
2008-09-23, 04:34 AM
As a Paladin player in a party with a Fighter as well, I don't feel obsolete. The interpretation on Divine Challenge presented earlier in this thread is certainly going to be helpful to me in the future, since I've been running the damage once per mark. Regardless, bearing in mind the effects that Mark creates for the Paladin, it's still as viable a choice as Combat Challenge.

Holy and Enfeebling Strike, my current two favourite At-Wills, exemplify this remarkably well, by making it an equally bad idea to engage my Paladin in combat than to pick on my allies. Holy Strike is particularly effective against Marked Undead, of course, and Enfeebling Strike creates the following options for the enemy:

1. Attack me at -2, bearing in mind that as a Paladin I get free Plate proficiency so am practically untouchable.
2. Attack an ally of mine at -4 and take Radiant damage.
3. Do nothing, granting the party action advantage.

All of these are bad ideas, though option 1 is probably the least negative.

And that's just what's available at first level. At our current level (7th), I can crit a marked target on 19-20 with Thunder Smite, and I'm pretty sure I saw a "Marked Target only" encounter power further up the ladder.

I'm no slouch for damage, either, having picked up Martyr's Retribution. One healing surge for an extra [W] damage, when Paladins get the most base surges, is an acceptable expenditure.

Also, having two defenders engaging the same target, while strategically suboptimal, is great fun, since we can do silly stuff like deliberately provoke opportunity attacks to set off each other's marks, in relative safety since we're both plate-armoured defenders.