[4E] Multi-classing revision

[Grynning]

So, I'm pretty sure someone else did their own version of this, but I'm thinking of house-ruling the initial multi-classing feats to make them more adaptable and to make multi-classed characters a bit more fun. I'd like to know if there are any potential problems with these changes, but first let me state my goals.
Goal #1: Make all Paragon Paths accessible and somewhat useful to a character who multi-classes to meet the entry requirements.
Goal #2: Make all multi-class combinations appealing; in other words, no multi-class feat should be vastly superior to any other.

Note that Wizard and Warlock no longer gain an attack when first taking the feat. I think this is fine, as it encourages them to swap some powers and get more arcane goodness.

Please don't tell me these are "over-powered" - power level is less of a concern for me than making multi-classing more functional. However, if you think that they are unbalanced, which is different, please tell me.

Names and pre-requisites would stay the same. I'm just going to list them by class to make it easier, and because I'm lazy and don't want to type out the names.

Cleric: You gain training in one skill from the cleric list. You gain either the Healing Word or the Channel Divinity class feature. Implement use as written in the PhB.

Fighter: You gain training in one skill from the Fighter list. You gain the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature, selecting either one or two-handed weapons as a first-level fighter would. As a free action, you may mark any targets you attack until the end of your turn.

Paladin: You gain training in one skill from the Paladin List. You gain the Divine Challenge class feature. Implement use as written in the PhB.

Ranger: You gain training in one skill from the Ranger list. You gain a Ranger Combat style. If you select Archery, you also gain the Prime Shot class feature.

Rogue: You gain training in a skill from the Rogue list. You gain the Sneak Attack class feature.

Warlock: You gain training in a skill from the Warlock list. You gain the Warlock's Curse class feature. Select a Warlock pact. You count as having that pact for feats and paragon paths, and you gain that pact's boon when using your Curse.

Warlord: You gain training in a skill from the Warlord list. You gain the Commanding Presence class feature. Select either Inspiring or Tactical Presence as a first-level Warlord would.

Wizard: You gain training in a skill from the Wizard list. You gain the ability to use all Cantrips. Implement use as written in the PhB.

In addition, the power swap feat requirements would be reduced to 2nd, 4th, and 8th levels respectively.

New feat:
Apprentice Power [Multi-class At-Will]
Pre-requisites: Any class-specific multi-class feat, 6th level.
Benefit: You may swap one at-will attack power you know for one at-will attack power of the class you multiclassed into.

Paragon multi-classing would be gone, would not exist.

Thoughts?

[Oracle_Hunter]

This rolls back the attempt WotC made at isolating the classes. You have given substantial class features (by and large) to every MC, which makes it far less important for you to pick up the original class.

For instance, MC Fighters are just as accurate and just as sticky as full fighters. The only difference is that straight Fighters get an additional bonus against OAs and can take a swing at marked shifters. MC TWF Rangers can use any weapon they want in either hand, and by 6th level they can take Twin Strike and fight just like TWF Rangers.

It essentially brings back the idea of the "dip," which I have never liked. But if you like it, then your revision works fine... though I would have given MC Wizards an Implement Mastery instead of Cantrips to fix the Spiral Tower Problem.

[MammonAzrael]

Fighter: You gain training in one skill from the Fighter list. You gain the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature, selecting either one or two-handed weapons as a first-level fighter would. As a free action, you may mark any targets you attack until the end of your next turn.

Ranger: You gain training in one skill from the Ranger list. You gain a Ranger Combat style. If you select Archery, you also gain the Prime Shot class feature.

Do you get the associated bonus feat with the Combat Style? Also, it feels a bit off that you get the extra damage ability from the other two strikers, but not this one. I'd switch it to grant the Hunter's Quarry CF, and change the Ranger PP's requisites from the Combat Styles to the bonus feats granted by the respective styles.

Warlord: You gain training in a skill from the Warlord list. You gain the Commanding Presence class feature. Select either Inspiring or Tactical Presence as a first-level Warlord would.

Like the Ranger, here you're not getting the primary Leader ability. Why does the cleric get a choice, but the Warlord doesn't?

Wizard: You gain training in a skill from the Wizard list. You gain the ability to use all Cantrips. Implement use as written in the PhB.

No real suggestions, but it does feel a little weak compared to the others. I blame the fact that Controllers don't have a defining class feature.

New feat:
Apprentice Power [Multi-class At-Will]
Pre-requisites: Any class-specific multi-class feat, 6th level.
Benefit: You may swap one at-will attack power you know for one at-will attack power of the class you multiclassed into.

Paragon multi-classing would be gone, would not exist.

I've been of the mind to expand paragon multiclassing, letting you gain class features when you would normally gain PP abilities, and granting you level-appropriate powers that you couldn't swap out.

My comments in bold. :smallsmile: Overall, I like it. Though there would be very little reason not to multiclass with these. :smalltongue:

[Edea]

I had a few ideas, but there are also some problems, the main one being that feats nowadays are pretty weaksauce, so I'm not sure how well they work as a balancing factor. I'll spoiler the ideas and see if anyone else likes any of them.


1) The base multiclass feat, or Initiate feat, grows as you level up, granting more and more of the class features inherent to the multiclass in a gradual manner (preferably on a tier-by-tier basis). Raise the stat prerequisites of the Initiate feats in an (admittedly feeble) attempt to idiot-proof them (probably from 13 to 15, and perhaps even make most of them dual-stat, instead of just the paladin's).

2) You have to take the Initiate feat at 1st level. Period. Note that this vastly favors human multiclassers; IMO, that fits, but others might not like that. Obviously, you'd still be able to take only one Initiate feat for the character. This pretty much eliminates the idea of merely dipping for goodies at your convenience when combined with #3, but there still needs to be stuff given to non-multiclassers (not sure what yet). It also kinda gets rid of awkward DM/player conversations ("Yay, level 10, I'm going to multi cleric now so I can get into Divine Oracle next level." "Um, no; since when did you ever receive the proper IC training to take the Initiate feat? We don't even have a cleric in the party :/." "I meet the prerequisites listed in the book, though." "*sigh*").

3) Taking the Initiate feat will immediately commit your 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level feat slots for multiclass power feats, but these feats would actually grant extra powers from the multiclass (so 1 extra at-will, 1 extra utility, 1 extra encounter, and 1 extra daily, once you obtained them), rather than merely allowing you to swap them for the ones in your primary class (though you'd get no choice in the matter with regards to actually taking the feats themselves). The powers granted could be replaced normally as you level up (though only with powers from that multiclass). There might have to be some other things done to balance out this added versatility (especially those who multiclass wizard and have gained access to their Spellbook class feature, as now their multiclass daily and utility powers will have some wiggle room) besides the lost feat slots, but I'm unsure as to how to do that yet.

4) You cannot retrain the Initiate feat once you take it. The other feats tied to the Initiate feat can only be reassigned to new powers from the multiclass as you level up; they can't actually be swapped out for other feats.

5) Paragon Multiclassing would be eliminated. Instead, there'd simply be new Paragon Paths available that would require more than one class. As an example, the Arcane Archer paragon path would require both the Ranger and Wizard classes, one from an Initiate feat and the other from a main. We could even have the paths behave differently based on which class out of the two requirements is the main class for that character. Obviously the powers in said Paragon Path would work very well for the character either way and count as powers from both types of class and power source (so a Seeker Arrow power might be a Ranger power, a Wizard power, Arcane, and Martial all at once, amongst other things). Another example would be the Ultimate Magus Paragon Path (requiring Warlock and Wizard), or the Ordained Champion Paragon Path (requiring Cleric and Paladin).

Bad news: that's quite a lot of PPs to consider writing o_o. Good news: it'd allow you to put a soft kibosh on multiclass combos that probably should not be (such as Warlock/Cleric) by not writing a Paragon Path for that combo. They could still have it, but then there's no catering to them, and they'd know that before ever creating the character.

6) The Initiate feat acts as a class qualifier for epic destinies (so someone with the Wizard Initiate feat would qualify for the Archmage destiny). Further, the Eternal Seeker destiny would be fleshed out (it seems a bit underwhelming at the moment), and would have an Initiate feat as its main prerequisite.


Again, one problem is the current power level of feats (i.e., at least IMO, they're pretty damn sad), so as it is these ideas are imbalanced. There'd need to be additional compensation for a character that wanted to just be a straight [whatever], but I'm not sure how I'd want to put that in there.

[Grynning]

@OH - You make a valid point, but let me explain myself a bit better - I don't want players to "dip," as it stands I think that's all the current multi-classing system is, dipping a few powers without really changing what kind of character you are. While I can see the merits of this system, I think it would be more interesting if multi-classing was actually committing to a very different kind of character; as in, a Fighter/Rogue should be fairly different from a straight Fighter, and a Rogue/Fighter or a Rogue/Wizard different from that. I want people to want to explore both sides of their build, I just don't think the current feats encourage that at all. Also, again, I hate the fact that some of the Initiate feats are nigh useless and that others don't even let you make use of any of the class's Paragon Paths. IMO "Paragon Multi-classing" should just instead be used to take an outside PP, which while you can do it with most classes, you can't do it at all with Ranger, and it just doesn't work for a lot of the classes (esp. Warlock) while others it works fine. I want to remove that disparity.
That said, you're right that some of my feats take away a bit too much from the original role of the parent class. I'll work on them a bit.

@Edea: Interesting idea, although I'm not sure I'm sold on the "auto-commit" of all the feat slots.
I love the plan for PP's that require multiple classes, those would be neat. I may home brew some up

I'm going to work on revising my versions, and see if I can tone them down while still helping with the Paragon Path situation. It'll have to wait til tomorrow though, I'm sleepy, went to a show tonight which is why I didn't respond for so long.