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View Full Version : [3.5] The Sanguine (PEACH) UPDATED 9/25 1:18 PM EST



Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 06:11 PM
UPDATED 9/25 1:18 PM EST
PLEASE REREAD THE UPDATED MATERIAL BEFORE POSTING
"Come closer so that I may shower in your blood." - Rosh Kolnaar, human Sanguine

Some warriors are simply content with killing their opponent. Others, however, relish in the bloody chaos that they create in combat. The Sanguine is definitely the latter. The Sanguine is a skilled warrior who was either born of a supernatural bloodline or became attuned to the song of blood through another bond later in life. Using a combination of powerful melee strikes and violent, bloody abilities, the Sanguine destroys his enemies with little regard for the safety of others and makes decisions that are borderline evil.

Sanguine
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bloodletting, Open Wound

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+0|Savage Sacrifice, Toughness

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+1|Fast Clotting I

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|Blood-stained Armor

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+1|Trail of Blood

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+2|Blood Mist, Fast Clotting II

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+2|Blood in the Eyes

8th|
+6+1|
+6|
+2|
+2|Poison Immunity

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+3|Bloody Grip, Fast Clotting III

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+3|Open Wound (Con damage), Staunch

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+3|Poisoned Veins

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|Blood-stained Armor (Blood Spikes), Fast Clotting IV

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+4|Boiling Blood

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+4|Seeing Red, Blood Mist (2/day)

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+5|Fast Clotting V

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Taste the Memories, Improved Savage Sacrifice

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Puddle of Blood

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Awaken Blood

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Open Wound (Improved Con damage)

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Bloodwalk, Blood Mist (2/day)[/table]

Alignment: Any non-good
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Profession, Spot, Survival, Swim
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier
Abilities: Strength is important for the Sanguine as it will dictate the effectiveness of his melee attacks. Charisma is also important as it represents his natural talent which allows him to connect to the song of blood. Charisma determines the DC’s and durations of his abilities. Constitution is equally important. Since many abilities require spending hp, the additional health is always helpful.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Sanguine in proficient in all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields (except tower shields.)

Bloodletting (Ex): The Sanguine has a knack for making his enemies bleed and suffer. Every time the Sanguine deals damage to a target with a successful melee attack, that target gains 1 Bloodied Point (BP). The target gains 2 BP on critical hits. Certain abilities grow in strength as the target gains BP while others require that the target has a certain number of BP before they can be used. Abilities that require the target to have accumulated BP have the needed value listed next to the ability name. BP can be decreased by the methods listed below. Generally, the Sanguine’s abilities do change the amount of BP on the creature, unless specified. Creatures that do not have blood or a similar substance are immune to Bloodletting and do not accumulate BP.

1 BP is lost for each d8 worth of healing (as per a cure spell) or 10 points of healing (as per a heal spell) the target receives. Five points of Fast Healing or one point of Regeneration also removes 1 BP. A full-round Heal check with the DC equal to 15 +Sanguine’s Level + X will remove X number of BP. All BP are lost after an extended rest, or when healed to full.

Open Wound (Su) (1): If the target has at least 1 BP, the Sanguine can make a melee touch attack to cause the target’s blood to burst forth through its injuries. The target takes 1d6 damage per BP accumulated, but the number of dice cannot exceed one-half the Sanguine’s class level, rounded up. The creature can make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ level + Cha mod) for half-damage. This ability can be used 3 + Cha mod per day. At 10th level, Open Wound starts to cause Con damage. For every 2 BP accumulated on the target, Open Wound deals 1 Con damage (FORT negates, maximum ½ class level). At level 19, Open Wound deals 1 Con damage for every 1 BP accumulated on the target (FORT negates, maximum ½ class level). Open Wound can never drop a target below a minimum of 1 CON. Since the loss of CON is a result of blood loss, it comes back at a rate of 4/day, and can be completely restored with a day of bed rest.

Savage Sacrifice (Su): At 2nd level, you can sacrifice hit points to increase your Strength temporarily. As a swift action, lose HP, up to your class level. For every 2 hit points lost, your Strength score increases by 1, up to a maximum of 8 STR gained. This effect lasts for 3 + Cha mod rounds. This damage cannot be healed until after the duration of the sacrifice.

At 16th level, the Savage Sacrifice improves. The Sanguine can now sacrifice STR mod hit points to gain 1 STR as a swift action (or in the same swift action as a typical savage sacrifice). There is no cap to the amount of STR that can be gained in this way. This ability can be used in conjunction with, but only after, normal Savage Sacrifice. This damage cannot be healed until after the duration of the sacrifice. This effect lasts for 3+Cha mod rounds. If the Sanguine's STR increases by more than 10 in one round, everyone in a 20 ft radius must make a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ level+ Cha mod) or be shaken.

Toughness (Ex): At level 2, the Sanguine gains the Toughness feat.

Fast Clotting (Su): Starting at level 3, the Sanguine gains the ability to form blood clots faster than the normal person. This ability allows the Sanguine to heal himself up to his Cha mod + Class level in HP. This ability is a standard action. As he increases in level, Swift Clotting’s healing ability improves. At 6th level, it heals up to (twice his Cha mod) + Class level. At 9th, (three times his Cha mod) + Class level. At 12th, (four times his Cha mod) + Class level. At 15th, Fast Clotting heals (five times his Cha mod) + Class level. Fast Clotting does not regenerate limbs and cannot heal the Sanguine above his maximum hp. He can choose to use as much of the healing as he wants in any use, but he cannot heal more than the maximum in one day.

Blood-stained Armor (Su): At level 4, the Sanguine begins to tap into the power that lies within his blood. He gains the ability to open wounds on his own body and magically harden the blood that flows out. As a standard action, he may sacrifice hit points, up to his level, to increase his AC. For every 2 HP lost, he gains 1 AC. This increase lasts for 3 + Cha mod rounds.
Starting at level 12, the Sanguine’s Blood-stained Armor improves. Whenever he activates this ability, spikes of his blood are also formed within the armor. Whenever he is hit by a melee attack, these spikes deal 2d6 damage to the attacker, and inflict (HP sacrificed/10 rounded down) BP. These spikes last as long as the Blood-stained Armor is still active.

Trail of Blood (Su) (1): Starting at 5th level, the Sanguine gains the Track feat and the Scent special ability. However, he may only track or detect a target that has at least 1 BP accumulated.

Blood Mist (Su) (2): At 6th level, once per day, the Sanguine can manipulate the blood on his weapon. If he had successfully given an opponent at least 2 BP in the past 2 rounds, he can swing his weapon around in the air, creating a dense fog of blood. Blood Mist functions like the Fog Cloud spell, however, everyone in the mist other than the Sanguine must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ level + Cha mod) each round or become sickened. The duration and extent of the cloud are limited, however. The cloud lasts (target's BP + 1d10) rounds. Its radius is a static 20 ft, and its height is 20 ft. The Sanguine suffers none of the effects of the Fog Cloud spell.

At level 14, the Sanguine gains a second use of Blood Mist, and at level 20 he gains a third.

Blood in the Eyes (Ex): Starting at level 7, you can take a full-round action to make an attack aimed above the target's eyes. If the attack hits, in addition to dealing normal damage the target’s vision becomes blurred from its own blood. The creature incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls and spot checks. Blood in the Eyes lasts as many rounds equal to 3 + Cha mod. This ability can be used 1 + Charisma mod times per day. The Sanguine does not need to target a creature with any accumulated BP for this ability.

Poison Immunity (Su): By delving further into the power within his blood, starting at 8th level, the Sanguine’s blood becomes fortified, making it immune to all poisons.

Bloody Grip (Ex): Starting at 9th level, you can choose to take a full-round action to make a melee attack against your opponent’s hand. If the attack hits, in addition to the normal weapon damage, the target’s hands become slippery with blood. Every round the target attempts to attack, they must make a Dexterity check (DC 10 + ½ level) or the weapon slips out of their hand. They also receive a -2 penalty to resisting disarm checks. The effect lasts for 3 + Cha mod rounds. Bloody Grip can only be used 1 + Charisma mod per day. The Sanguine does not need to target a creature with any accumulated BP for this ability. The target can take a move action to wipe the blood off of his hands, halving the DC of the Dexterity check, and decreasing the disarm penalty to -1.

Staunch (Ex): Starting at 10th level, automatically becomes stable when his hit points drop below 0. He still dies if he reaches -10 hit points or lower.

Poisoned Veins (Su) (1): At 11th level, the Sanguine learns to use his immunity to poison against his opponents. When a poison enters his system, though he himself is immune to its effects, he can store the poison within his veins. As a standard action against an opponent with at least 1 BP accumulated, the Sanguine can make a melee touch attack to transfer the poison’s effects from his own wounds into his enemy’s (Fort negates). This action requires the Sanguine to sacrifice 5 HP or the ability fails. Using Poisoned Veins does not remove the poison from his system, but due to his immunity he can choose to expel the poison at any time. Poison inherently loses potency over the course of two weeks. He may only have 1 type of poison stored within his veins at any time. Any creature that is immune to poison or does not have blood/blood-like substance is not affected by Poisoned Veins.


Boiling Blood (Su) (3): At 13th level, the Sanguine can further manipulate his opponent’s blood. He gains the ability to thrust his hands inside the target’s wounds and causing its blood to boil. If he succeeds with a melee touch attack against an opponent that is already wounded, the target immediately takes 5d6 fire damage. The target can make a Fort save (DC 10 + ½ level + Cha mod) to take half damage. If he fails his fortitude save, the target must also make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ level + Cha mod) or become dazed for one round. At the beginning of the target’s next turn, it must make another Fort save. If it fails, it receives another 2d6 fire damage. The creature must continue making Fort saves at the beginning of its turn or risk taking more damage. Blood cools by itself after 5 rounds. Once the save has been made, the creature no longer takes fire damage. After the target is no longer dazed, it becomes shaken for Cha mod rounds (minimum 1). This ability ignores up to your Cha mod of fire resistance. Boiling Blood can only be used 3 times per day. The target must have at least 3 BP accumulated or the ability fails. For each addition BP beyond 3, Boiling Blood does an additional 1d6 fire damage initially.

Seeing Red (Ex) (5): At level 14, whenever the Sanguine engages an opponent with 5 or more BP accumulated, he gains +1 to attack, +1 damage, immunity to fear and charm effects, and +1 to all saves against effects originating from his opponent. For every additional 2 BP accumulated above 5, the Sanguine gains an additional +1 to attack, damage, and saves against the target. These effects are temporary until the target is dead or loses enough BP to drop it below 5.

Taste the Memories (Su) (1): Starting at level 16, through attuning himself to the secret song of the blood, the Sanguine can tap into the small memory banks that all cells hold. By tasting the target’s blood, the Sanguine learns the answer to three questions the target would have been able to answer. The target must have at least 1 BP accumulated or the ability fails. This ability fails if the target had immunity to charm, compulsion, or mind-affecting when injured. Blood must be no more than 1 minute out of the target's body. If the target is still alive, this ability grants a Will Save (DC 10 +1/2 level + Cha Mod). This can be used once per day.

Puddle of Blood (Su) (5): Starting at level 17, the Sanguine becomes more attuned to the magic of blood. Once per day, the Sanguine can target an opponent who is currently wounded and is no more than one size larger than himself. The target must have at least 5 BP accumulated or the ability fails. A large puddle of blood pools beneath the target’s feet and stretches out by a 20’ radius. Any creature within the area must then make a reflex save (DC 10 + ½ level + Cha mod). Similar to quicksand, if a creature fails their reflex save, they are sucked down into the pool beneath the surface. The creature must now hold their breath or begin drowning. In order to resurface, the creature must make 3 successful saving throws by rolling a d20 using the system below:

Natural 20: Automatically resurface
11-19: 1 successful save
2-10: No change
Natural 1: You require 1 additional successful save to resurface

Puddle of Blood remains on the ground for Cha mod minutes. Creatures that do not need to breathe still sink and have to escape, but are in no danger of drowning. If the effect ends while a creature is submerged, the creature, rises to the top and is expelled harmlessly.

Awaken Blood (Su): At 18th level, the Sanguine can bestow momentary consciousness on an opponent’s blood. If he hits a foe with a melee touch attack, the opponent’s blood tries to get free of its confinement-all at once. The pressure disrupts the victim’s tissues, dealing 10d10 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). This ability is usable only once per day, but he can try to use it again later in the day if his previous attempt failed. Targets without blood or a similar substance are immune to this effect. The Sanguine does not need to target a creature with any accumulated BP for this ability. However, the target will take a penalty to the fortitude save equal to his BP. This ability is treated as magical damage, and thus cannot cause death from massive damage.

Bloodwalk (Su) (1): At level 20, a Sanguine becomes perfectly attuned to the song of blood. He gains the supernatural ability to transport himself great distances via the blood of living creatures. Cha mod times per day (minimum 1) as a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, he can seamlessly enter any living creature (except those without blood or similar substance) with at least 1 BP, and whose size equals or exceeds his own and pass any distance to another living creature on the same plane in a single round, regardless of the distance separating the two. The Sanguine merely designates a direction and a distance (“a living creature twenty miles due west of here”), and the Bloodwalk ability transports him to a destination creature as close as possible to the desired location. He can’t specify a named individual as the endpoint unless he has previously obtained a sample of that creature’s blood and has it preserved in a vial that he carries.

The entry and destination creatures need not be familiar to the Sanguine. A Sanguine cannot use himself as an entry creature. If an intended entry creature is unwilling, he must make a successful melee touch attack to enter. When exiting a creature, the Sanguine chooses an adjacent square in which to appear. Entering and exiting a creature is painless unless the Sanguine wishes otherwise.

If he desires, the Sanguine can attempt to make a bloody exit from the destination creature. He bursts forth explosively from the creature’s body, dealing 10d6 points of damage unless the creature makes a Fort save (DC 10 + Sanguine’s level + Cha mod). When he makes a blood exit, a Sanguine must succeed on a DC 15 Fort save or be stunned for 1 round from the shock of his expulsion.

Prometheus
2008-09-21, 08:19 PM
This is ridiculously unbalanced.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 08:27 PM
So please let me know how to fix it. Don't just tell me what's wrong.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 08:52 PM
I'll be a bit more thorough: Bloodletting.

Any hit with a slashing weapon deals a mini sneak attack? You're looking at a full attack at 16th potentially dealing an additional 32d4 damage. And this doesn't require flat-footedness, distraction, helplessness... and you left out the disclaimer regarding creatures immune to critical hits.

On top of that, he has a d12 hit die. A class less good at this sort of thing, which is also considered its specialty (the rogue) has a hit die half that size, restrictions on that ability and less attack bonus.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 08:56 PM
Well, since it has abilities that allow him to sacrifice health, I want to keep the HD d12, but I agree that the Bloodletting needs nerfing. How about instead of every hit, it's just the first attack in the round but does d6's instead of d4's? Could I also remove the Fort save or is that still overpowered? Are there any other abilities that need tweaking?

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 09:00 PM
I'll be frank: bloodletting needs to go away until it receives some serious tweaking. As a sneak attack, it feels better, but not with such a melee character. As a pure enhancement to even one hit... it's ruthlessly overpowered.

I like what you're trying to do with this, but it seems to me that you've got too many possible spins on this class all stuffed into one. You have a melee tank who can soak up damage combined with a death-dealing rogue and some nasty spell-likes. It's too "uber."

I'm going to read through your design thread on this and see if I can come up with any strong suggestions for you.

Lappy9000
2008-09-21, 09:07 PM
First off, kudos for the very nice looking format. It's eye-pleasing :smallcool:

However, sanguines are a whole freakin' can of OP-goodness. That's the real problem; you'd have to trim out a bunch of the abilities, which may not sound too pleasing, as this class is rather awesome.

I don't think it really deserves it's own niche; a prestige class might be more suiting for this in a normal D&D campaign. Also, you really should change that Hit Die. I'd say d8 meself.

Now, if you don't want to lose any of the abilities, I say you should homebrew some other awesome-overpowered classes, supplemented by the well-crafted Ultimate Classes (http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Classes), and run an über campaign!
^Seriously. That would be awesome. If you don't, I think I will :smallbiggrin:

'Still should change that Hit Die, though.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:07 PM
Alright, Bloodletting has been updated to increase the damage to d6's but only the first attack in a round is subject to the ability. I think this is perfectly fair.
Sneak Attack: Deals 1d6 every two levels, target must lose Dex bonus to AC, only first attack counts.

Bloodletting: Deals 1d6 every two levels, target must fail Fort save, only first attack counts.

As long as you have party members to flank with you, I'd say Bloodletting is weaker than Sneak Attack (after the nerf). I'd think that a creature would make their Fort saves more often then they lose their dex mod to AC (flanked, surprised, etc). What do you think?

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:09 PM
I could be convinced to change/remove more abilities. Please give me some suggestions and your reasoning behind them. Also, I have lowered the HD to d10, seeing how the Fighter only has d10 (I thought both fighter and barb had d12).

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 09:12 PM
The problem is creatures with a weak Fort save getting shredded every melee round. The "flaw" of sneak attack is that it'll likely only work once agaisnt that opponent. It's meant to be a kill stroke, in secret, and gains that flavor. With the bloodletter, I could be a halfling with 3 Str, 18 Con and a dull dagger and dole out bloodier blows in open combat than a half-orc barbarian with a greataxe. Maybe that's what you really want from this class; again, I say that it's overpowered, but to each his own. You mentioned Bloodbending, from Avatar, and to me that doesn't scream raw bleeding wounds. It says "Con-based powers that wreck Fortitude, drop HP, shred vascular systems etc." So something like a monk's special attacks, but with a healer edge too.

TeeEl
2008-09-21, 09:16 PM
The main problem is the massive added damage that you get access to starting from very low levels. It doesn't make much sense for bloodletting to be so strong compared to sneak attack; bloodletting has fewer restrictions than Sneak Attack and does nearly as much damage in the first turn alone, and the rest of the class is much more combat-worthy in general than most Sneak Attack based classes. Requiring a save helps out a bit, but being Con-based it is very convenient to pump up. Mechanically that makes it a bit unwieldy, though; it generates a LOT of extra rolls from saves and damage every turn, plus added bookkeeping from having to keep track of dice of wounds separately. Changing the bleeding damage to +1/2 levels instead of +1d4/2 levels would be simpler and much more balanced. Come to think of it, it needs a maximum duration too. I would say 5 rounds.

Savage Sacrifice is also pretty huge. Compare to the PHII spell Blade of Blood, a 1st level spell that gives you +2d6 for 5 damage to yourself, and it's reckoned to be a pretty good spell. Not only is Savage Sacrifice over two times more efficient, you can get effectively unlimited use (yes, really) whereas even as a 1st level spell you can only use Blade of Blood a limited number of times per day. Again for simplicity and balance I would suggest a 1:1 ratio, perhaps lifting the cap to your full class level. You've got buckets of HP to spare anyhow.

Swift Clotting scales a bit too quickly. I would consider moving it to 3/6/9/12 instead of 2/4/6/8.

Inflicting blindness at will at level 3 is crazy, even for just 1 turn at a time. Inflicting it at will with no save goes beyond ridiculous.

Blood-stained armor is actually pretty reasonable. The HP cost is pretty trivial, but being a standard action for a short-duration buff limits it somewhat. I would still recommend bumping the cap to be equal to class level, and making it +1 AC for every 2 damage (same AC cap, more HP cost).

Bloody Grip might be too good against certain types of opponents. At a minimum I would make the Dex check once per round rather than once per attack. I would also probably change it to either a flat target + 1/2 level or a flat target + Con mod; ability checks do not scale nearly as much as saves do, and setting the DC like a saving throw means anything that doesn't have insane Dex is utterly screwed.

Boiling Blood is a bit much; continuous daze at will is nasty, even as a save-ends effect. I would suggest making the daze a one-time effect period.

The once/day abilities aren't too bad. Puddle of Blood's recovery mechanic is a bit strange and kind of harsh, but at that high a level full spellcasters can cast dozens of spells per day that are just as nasty.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:18 PM
I can see where you are coming from. As far as the Avatar reference, the class concept changed as more people posted so it doesn't really reflect that amount. I disagree about the sneak attack only working once. Yes, if you are going to kill someone by yourself, but if you are fighting in a party (at least an intelligent one) a rogue should be getting Sneak Attacks almost every round. Maybe it's just the campaign I play in, but if I play a rogue I have a party member go behind my target so we are flanking, giving me SA. Unless they are immune to crits, you should be getting a fair amount of sneak attacks, which is why I added in that clause for Bloodletting.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 09:25 PM
In most higher-level combats/combats with multiple opponents that I've seen, the monster either is immune to sneak attack due to crit rules or uncanny dodge, or gets wise after the first stabbing and does...TERRIBLE things to the poor thief. Against single monsters, flanks are easy. But vs. a crowd, or in unusual terrain, getting a flank every turn is near impossible and depends more on how many party members you have.

Even if in your campaign you get a sneak attack every turn, remember that it's taking two party members to get there. Bloodletting on the other hand is an ability that any melee class should dip for, because it's guaranteed added damage hinging only on a Fort save.

One other concern I have with this class is simply that there are so many creatures against which he should have less effect. Elementals, some outsiders, aberrations, undead and constructs will all be immune to his offensive blood abilities.

That and I really don't understand a melee class having such a bizarrely supernatural ability as Pool of Blood. I would personally not include that.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-09-21, 09:36 PM
Howabout making bloodletting deal damage a single time? And then decreasing the DC?

For example, make bloodletting deal 1d4 at first level, 1d6 at third level, 1d8 at fifth, 2d4 at seventh, 1d10 at ninth, 1d12 at eleventh, 2d6 at thirteenth, 2d8 at fifteenth, 3d6 at seventeenth, and 2d10 at nineteenth? This would be extra damage if the creature fails the save, and it would not be subjected to it unless the character makes another successful attack and the creature fails another Fort save.

On each subsequent time a creature is subjected to the ability, the DC is decreased by 2.

Also, constructs and undead need to be immune to it.

---

In addition, on awaken blood, you typed in "blood magus" thus confirming my suspicion on what this was based on.

---

I would also let bloodwalk be used a number of times per day equal to your Con modifier-1 (minimum one). (Maybe -2) Just so players can use their capstone well and often.

---

Blood in the Eyes needs to be at least a full action, and if not, useable a limited number of times per day. If you want to change it, you could make it a move or swift action, and have it deal little damage with no bloodletting (1d4), blinding the creature for a round.

---

Change it to 2+Int or 4+Int skills. Personally, I'd recommend 2+Int, as the class has a lot of other things going for it.

---

To prevent possible abuse, make Blood-Stained Armor usable a limited number of times per day.

Alternatively, make it Con damage instead of HP.

---

Trail of Blood needs to have a definition placed on what defines "recently wounded".

---

Bloody Hands is another thing that should be usable a limited number of times per day.

---

Toughness. Screw that. Give them Improved Toughness. If you want to stay Core, though, you might consider making Diehard.

---

Puddle of blood. Eh...

Just make it a single save. Or make it 11-19 success.

Mass forced drowning completely based on luck with a fairly good chance of failing is way to powerful.

---

Seeing Red, you might want to make 25% of their health.

---

Any particular reason it's limited to non-good?

---

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Nice class overall, and I like the flavor, though it'd be nice if you expanded on it some.

EDIT: Woah, didn't see Savage Sacrifice. Maybe change it to Con damage?

EDIT2: Also missed Boiling Blood. >-<

Hm. Touch attacks are a nasty business. Maybe make it useable 3+Con mod times per day? Otherwise, it would just be a no brainer to keep spamming this.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:38 PM
The main problem is the massive added damage that you get access to starting from very low levels. It doesn't make much sense for bloodletting to be so strong compared to sneak attack; bloodletting has fewer restrictions than Sneak Attack and does nearly as much damage in the first turn alone, and the rest of the class is much more combat-worthy in general than most Sneak Attack based classes. Requiring a save helps out a bit, but being Con-based it is very convenient to pump up. Mechanically that makes it a bit unwieldy, though; it generates a LOT of extra rolls from saves and damage every turn, plus added bookkeeping from having to keep track of dice of wounds separately. Changing the bleeding damage to +1/2 levels instead of +1d4/2 levels would be simpler and much more balanced. Come to think of it, it needs a maximum duration too. I would say 5 rounds.
I would agree that Bloodletting was too uber before, but after the tweak, I still think it's comparable to Sneak Attack. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I guess I just don't see how it's overpowered compared to Sneak Attack. Can you give me an example?


Savage Sacrifice is also pretty huge. Compare to the PHII spell Blade of Blood, a 1st level spell that gives you +2d6 for 5 damage to yourself, and it's reckoned to be a pretty good spell. Not only is Savage Sacrifice over two times more efficient, you can get effectively unlimited use (yes, really) whereas even as a 1st level spell you can only use Blade of Blood a limited number of times per day. Again for simplicity and balance I would suggest a 1:1 ratio, perhaps lifting the cap to your full class level. You've got buckets of HP to spare anyhow.
Ok, I wasn't aware of any spells like that so I'll nerf it a bit. Maybe I'll change to the same scale as the spell, 5 hp/2d6 extra. Maybe limit it to using HP/level.


Swift Clotting scales a bit too quickly. I would consider moving it to 3/6/9/12 instead of 2/4/6/8.
I suppose. I was just comparing it to the actual cleric spells. Maybe I shouldn't have.


Inflicting blindness at will at level 3 is crazy, even for just 1 turn at a time. Inflicting it at will with no save goes beyond ridiculous.
Hmm, yeah probably. I'll add a save and make it usable 1 + con mod times per day.


Blood-stained armor is actually pretty reasonable. The HP cost is pretty trivial, but being a standard action for a short-duration buff limits it somewhat. I would still recommend bumping the cap to be equal to class level, and making it +1 AC for every 2 damage (same AC cap, more HP cost).
Sounds fair.


Bloody Grip might be too good against certain types of opponents. At a minimum I would make the Dex check once per round rather than once per attack. I would also probably change it to either a flat target + 1/2 level or a flat target + Con mod; ability checks do not scale nearly as much as saves do, and setting the DC like a saving throw means anything that doesn't have insane Dex is utterly screwed.
Agreed.


Boiling Blood is a bit much; continuous daze at will is nasty, even as a save-ends effect. I would suggest making the daze a one-time effect period.
Sounds good.


The once/day abilities aren't too bad. Puddle of Blood's recovery mechanic is a bit strange and kind of harsh, but at that high a level full spellcasters can cast dozens of spells per day that are just as nasty.
The reasoning behind the mechanic was to ensure that people without a strength mod or swim skill weren't doomed. I didn't just want to lower the DC because then it would be useless against anyone that could swim, so I came up with that system. I like it.

I really appreciate your detailed input.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:40 PM
In addition, on awaken blood, you typed in "blood magus" thus confirming my suspicion on what this was based on.


Heh, well that was the original inspriation if you read my brainstorming post for the class. I wanted a combat-oriented, non-caster blood magus base class.

Mr.Bookworm
2008-09-21, 09:44 PM
Also, how did you do the table?

It's nice, and I will be forced to steal it if you reveal how you did it.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 09:54 PM
I used the creator here: http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/

I took a screenshot and saved the image of the table, then imported it using the image tabs. I couldn't find the proper language to copy and paste it directly into the thread.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 09:55 PM
Blood in the Eyes could be changed to causing an attack penalty. That would probably work fairly well. To tone it better, offer that creatures with Blind-Fight aren't impaired.

Sneak Attack vs. Bloodletting:

First and most importantly, sneak attack and its cousins are delegated to the rogue because that is their combat specialty. In exchange, the low hit die.

Secondly, I must reiterate the general opinion: bloodletting at sneak attack damage scale is too powerful because it takes place on a melee attack. The save is based on Con, which is not exactly a dump stat, and for many creatures with low Fort saves, one attack is bad enough without catching Bloodletting damage on top. At 10th level, with 18 Con (and why wouldn't you have high Con) the save is DC 19 to avoid 5d6 additional non-elemental, nonmagical damage from a melee attack. Magic weapons are less powerful than this.

Thirdly, sneak attack has the flavor aspect, emphasizing why it can be used at range, against certain creatures, during certain situations. While certainly powerful it fills a niche in combat, and the rogue as a class is tailored to fit it. Also, the sneak attack is not purely available by flanking. Size, concealment etc. can (and often do) prevent a sneak attack, whereas bloodletting would bypass these factors as currently written.

Fourth, I must again state: if your rogue is sneak attacking every round, something unusual is going on.

Fifth, combined with the high BAB, healing and supernatural abilities, you are dangerously close to having a class that takes a scoop from each of the four iconic classes: melee power of fighters, power damage of rogues, nasty spell-like effects from wizards and curative powers from clerics. At least two of those have to go, and Bloodletting should definetely be one.

And finally, sneak attack is in the main a tactical combat option. Bloodletting is simply an automatic amount of additional damage.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 09:58 PM
By the way, one of the sticky threads in the Homebrew forum has all of the tables in code format to copy/paste. Your method was okay, but using the code format lets you tinker it a bit more on the fly.

TeeEl
2008-09-21, 10:05 PM
I would agree that Bloodletting was too uber before, but after the tweak, I still think it's comparable to Sneak Attack. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I guess I just don't see how it's overpowered compared to Sneak Attack. Can you give me an example?

Before I even compare it to Sneak Attack, I have to ask: does the Sanguine deserve to have an attack ability that's even as good as Sneak Attack in the first place? You've got twice as much HP as a rogue, full BAB, and plenty of other juicy (no pun intended) combat-relevant abilities. Most rogues need Sneak Attack just to have a prayer of pulling their own weight in combat. You could take Bloodletting out completely with no compensation, though, and this guy still wouldn't be at the bottom of the heap in terms of combat effectiveness.

As for the actual comparison, though, it's pretty basic: you're doing roughly 70% as much damage as a sneak attack, every. Single. Round. Now generally the damage isn't going to last for long before the target drops, and damage over time is less useful than damage upfront, but at an absolute minimum bloodletting easily matches Sneak Attack and any many situations it can easily blow it away.

That's just in straight up combat terms, though. The open-ended duration leaves it very vulnerable to abuse. At level 6+, one hit can mean a guaranteed kill; just run away and wait for the bloodletting to finish off your target if it doesn't have ready access to healing.


I suppose. I was just comparing it to the actual cleric spells. Maybe I shouldn't have.

That runs into the same problem as Bloodletting: you're adding what amounts to full basic cleric healing ability (up to level 8, anyhow) on top of everything else he gets. Basically, you can heal yourself about as well as a cleric, dish out damage dice as well as a rogue (really, better than in many instances), soak damage and deal hits like a barbarian, and can disable/control as well as a wizard. The only way to keep all these abilities from being overpowered is to nerf them or add some limitations. Now, your damage/defense buffs burn HP so you can't out-barbarian the barbarian, and your better crowd control abilities are mostly 1/day so you sure as hell can't out-wizard the wizard even in terms of combat situations, so those are already at a reasonable level.The healing and extra dice still need to be toned down, though.

(Contrary to afroakuma, I think by no means do any of these abilities necessarily need to be axed entirely. You're not nearly as versatile as the iconic classes in their respective fields; you can pull off one of the main schticks of several different classes, which is potent and needs to be kept at a limited level, but is not impossible to manage.)

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 10:07 PM
Hold on - the damage continues? I thought it was just raw extra damage.

If there's wounding, then there's no argument either way - that's overpowered in the extreme.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 10:13 PM
Ok, I have updated the class again: Savage Sacrifice nerfed, Swift clotting progression increased, Blood-stained armor nerfed, Blood in the Eyes moved to level 7 and nerfed, Bloody Grip moved to 8th level and nerfed, Boiling Blood nerfed, Awaken Blood typo fixed.

I think you guys are right. Bloodletting needs serious tweaking or removal. If it is removed, however, I think Savage Sacrifice and Blood-stained Armor need to be the main class mechanics and should be improved. How would you alter those abilities if Bloodletting was removed completely?

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 10:32 PM
Changed the table to make things easier on me. Thank you all for your input so far.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 10:39 PM
Those mechanics alone are quite powerful, and combined with full BAB, d10 hit die and the other (Su) abilities, it still makes for an intimidatingly overwhelming class.

If some other abilities were dropped, I'd suggest changing Savage Sacrifice into an effect similar to the Vicious weapon ability, i.e. choose to spend life only on a hit.

Nerfed Blood-Stained Armor can probably stand on its own, although I agree that it needs to have a cap. Non-core feats like Improved Toughness give too many extra hit points already, and if someone hands him a Stoneskin he'll have no more need for his own base HP and can just ratchet his AC up to ridiculous levels.

Also: a concern about Seeing Red - generally, players aren't supposed to be aware of a monster's remaining HP. More bookkeeping for the DM.

One final note: keep in mind as you tinker with this that the class really needs only high scores in Dex and Con. Since no other class has high Con as... its "prime requisite," shall we say... you're in dangerous waters. Remember that he's already getting HP and Fortitude bonuses in addition to adding DC/length/what have you to his (Su) abilities. He may be getting too much power out of that single stat.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 10:52 PM
BIG UPDATE! I dropped Bloodletting, moved Savage Sacrifice to level 1 and increased it's duration, and moved Blood-stained Armor to level 2.


Those mechanics alone are quite powerful, and combined with full BAB, d10 hit die and the other (Su) abilities, it still makes for an intimidatingly overwhelming class.

Well, I removed Bloodletting to remove further broken-ness. Do you think d10 is still too high? d8 might be ok but I definitely wouldn't go any lower.


If some other abilities were dropped, I'd suggest changing Savage Sacrifice into an effect similar to the Vicious weapon ability, i.e. choose to spend life only on a hit.

Not a bad idea, but I'd want it to be different from Vicious somehow. What would you change to make it similar to vicious, but not identical?


Nerfed Blood-Stained Armor can probably stand on its own, although I agree that it needs to have a cap. Non-core feats like Improved Toughness give too many extra hit points already, and if someone hands him a Stoneskin he'll have no more need for his own base HP and can just ratchet his AC up to ridiculous levels.
It does have a cap. You can only sacrifice enough HP to get +10 AC at level 20. Or is that too much? Or should the sacrifice rate be increased?


Also: a concern about Seeing Red - generally, players aren't supposed to be aware of a monster's remaining HP. More bookkeeping for the DM.
I suppose. I still like the ability though. How can I change it to make it not HP related?


One final note: keep in mind as you tinker with this that the class really needs only high scores in Dex and Con. Since no other class has high Con as... its "prime requisite," shall we say... you're in dangerous waters. Remember that he's already getting HP and Fortitude bonuses in addition to adding DC/length/what have you to his (Su) abilities. He may be getting too much power out of that single stat.
I'd say Con is pretty important to Barbarians, but I can see your point. Maybe I'll change some of the saves to use Strength mod instead of Con.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 11:01 PM
Also, now that I've removed Bloodletting, I have a lot of dead levels. I need ideas on what to fill them with.

afroakuma
2008-09-21, 11:06 PM
Well, I removed Bloodletting to remove further broken-ness. Do you think d10 is still too high? d8 might be ok but I definitely wouldn't go any lower.

D10 is fine. I was really referring to the (Su) abilities being present as well. It is, after all, a class focused on spending HP. Need HP to have that happen.


BIG UPDATE! I dropped Bloodletting, moved Savage Sacrifice to level 1 and increased it's duration, and moved Blood-stained Armor to level 2.


You do realize that Savage Sacrifice doesn't work at all at level 1.


It does have a cap. You can only sacrifice enough HP to get +10 AC at level 20. Or is that too much? Or should the sacrifice rate be increased?

Didn't catch the cap - I think that's in the ballpark of correct. Spending 20 HP for +10 AC is severe enough to both fit the theme and be fairly balanced.


What would you change to make it similar to vicious, but not identical?

Few ways to go with that...one would be to spend hit points for a boosted combat score, say equivalent Str bonus for one round. That would pump damage and increase the likelihood of hits.

Another way would be a tradeoff... for example, spend 1d6 HP to deal 1d6 extra damage; and then scale it. So levels 6, 11 and 16, for example, you could gain an extra set of tradeoff dice.

Third option, although it goes against the grain of an earlier comment I made, is to spend HP to add your Con bonus to the damage dealt. Values a high Con, doesn't scale, but is quite cheap to use in higher levels and could engourage a greater focus in Con. Add Power Attack for a truly bloodthirsty Sanguine.


How can I change it [Seeing Red] to make it not HP related?

You know... that's a tough one. What you COULD do is tie it to the Sanguine's own HP. Takes some of the helaing surge/clotting/blood power flavor and adds the "I gain power from my blood" flavor. Just a thought.

By the way, saw your join date. Welcome to GitP forums! When you have time, take a scout around at some of the stuff already posted. PrC and Monster Contests have good stuff kicking around; you might find some of it useful.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 11:17 PM
ANOTHER BIG CHANGE: I have changed several abilities to use his Charisma modifier instead of his Con mod. Seems to make more sense (just as much sense as a Warlock needing Cha...at least IMO). I also moved around some abilities and changed Savage Sacrifice.


D10 is fine. I was really referring to the (Su) abilities being present as well. It is, after all, a class focused on spending HP. Need HP to have that happen.
Sounds good.


You do realize that Savage Sacrifice doesn't work at all at level 1.
Whoops, good call. I'll fix that depending on how I change the ability.


Few ways to go with that...one would be to spend hit points for a boosted combat score, say equivalent Str bonus for one round. That would pump damage and increase the likelihood of hits.
I like this suggestion best. What sort of Sacrificed HP/Str Bonus would you recommend. 1:1 seems too strong to me, unless I put the "up to half your level" cap on it so it maxes out at +10 at level 20.


You know... that's a tough one. What you COULD do is tie it to the Sanguine's own HP. Takes some of the helaing surge/clotting/blood power flavor and adds the "I gain power from my blood" flavor. Just a thought.

I'm kind of confused. Are you saying that the more HP he has, the higher the bonus; Or the more he is hurt, the higher the bonus?


By the way, saw your join date. Welcome to GitP forums! When you have time, take a scout around at some of the stuff already posted. PrC and Monster Contests have good stuff kicking around; you might find some of it useful.
Thanks! I've actually been to the site before, I just didn't have anything to post until yesterday. :) Afroakuma, I also sent you a private message.

erikun
2008-09-21, 11:29 PM
Okay, I tried posting in your other thread earlier, but GitP logged me out and I was annoyed enough that I just gave up. I'm back now, so let's see what we can do.

First, the Bloodletting ability can work, assuming some serious changes. Like, half progressing for the rogue's, and limit it to only melee. Also, no continuous bleeding. Dealing +4d6 is pretty significant, even if you're giving up Str to do so.

Another thought is to give the character temporary HP based on the Bloodletting damage done. It serves as a "buffer" for the class's HP, and could be used to activate abilities (see below).

Why do you have full BAB, anyways? Right now, it feels more like a blood knight with spells than some kind of combination class.

Second, perhaps impose some kind of limit to the class's abilities? I was thinking something like: "Can use abilities a number of times equal to the Sanguine level, using beyond that deals 5 damage to the character." Something like you'd see on a bard. And yes, the damage could be taken out of the character's temporary HP (if you're using the above version of Bloodletting).

Savage Sacrifice should be 2nd level, as you can't even use it at level 1.

Realize that you can use Swift Clotting to immediately heal up from one of his other abilities. Want some AC? Savage Sacrifice for +4 AC, then Swift Clot to heal 1d8+5 damage (practically guaranteed to give back 8+ HP).

You might want to make Trail of Blood "wounded by one of the Sanguine attacks."

Blood in the Eyes mentioned dealing Bloodletting damage, despite that no longer being a class feature. Also, it is using Cha modifier, rather than Con modifier. Actually, all abilities over level 6 suddenly rely on Cha. Huh?

Boiling Blood should have a savings throw for half damage. The saves needed are a bit excessive - a Fort to prevent damage, and a Will to prevent being dazed/shaken for 5-10 rounds?

Seeing Red is a free Rage with no penality. Why? Barbarians are still winded afterwards, and even they don't get to Rage against basically every opponent.

Puddle of Blood - So, making a savings throw, and if failed, they need to hold their breath for 12 rounds (average 4 rounds per successful roll, 3 successes needed) or auto-die? What if they don't need to breathe? What if the affect ends while they're "under water"?

You really need to specify which abilites will work on creatures with blood and which ones will not.

Right now, this is just a mismash of random abilites thrown together in a class. I think you need a bit more cohesion before the class starts working the way you want it to.

Bajaaku
2008-09-21, 11:58 PM
First, the Bloodletting ability can work, assuming some serious changes. Like, half progressing for the rogue's, and limit it to only melee. Also, no continuous bleeding. Dealing +4d6 is pretty significant, even if you're giving up Str to do so.
Not a bad idea.


Another thought is to give the character temporary HP based on the Bloodletting damage done. It serves as a "buffer" for the class's HP, and could be used to activate abilities (see below).
I like that, if I add Bloodletting back in I'll work that in somehow.


Why do you have full BAB, anyways? Right now, it feels more like a blood knight with spells than some kind of combination class.

What book is Blood Knight in? Never heard of it. Anyway, I've thought about lowering the BAB and I probably will.


Second, perhaps impose some kind of limit to the class's abilities? I was thinking something like: "Can use abilities a number of times equal to the Sanguine level, using beyond that deals 5 damage to the character." Something like you'd see on a bard. And yes, the damage could be taken out of the character's temporary HP (if you're using the above version of Bloodletting).
Not a bad idea either. But it doesn't seem like it would matter at higher levels. Maybe it shouldn't?


Savage Sacrifice should be 2nd level, as you can't even use it at level 1.
Yeah, someone pointed that out already and it's been fixed.


Realize that you can use Swift Clotting to immediately heal up from one of his other abilities. Want some AC? Savage Sacrifice for +4 AC, then Swift Clot to heal 1d8+5 damage (practically guaranteed to give back 8+ HP).
Maybe instead of making it like the cure spells, I just make it heal 1d8 or 1d6 and have it scale every so often. Plus it is a standard action so in order to use both abilities you are spending two turns doing it.


You might want to make Trail of Blood "wounded by one of the Sanguine attacks."
Eh, I think it would make just as much sense for him to track any bleeding creature, not just one he hit.


Blood in the Eyes mentioned dealing Bloodletting damage, despite that no longer being a class feature. Also, it is using Cha modifier, rather than Con modifier. Actually, all abilities over level 6 suddenly rely on Cha. Huh?
I don't know what to do for Saves anymore. People were telling me that I was using Con for too many things, so I changed a bunch to Charisma like a spontaneous caster. Are you saying I should change it back? What would you use?


Boiling Blood should have a savings throw for half damage. The saves needed are a bit excessive - a Fort to prevent damage, and a Will to prevent being dazed/shaken for 5-10 rounds? Fort for half damage? What if I remove the dazed part and kept shaken? Being shaken isn't that bad and I think the ability needs more than just damage. If you felt your blood boiling, there might be mental side effects (Well, you'd die in real life, but I digress.)


Seeing Red is a free Rage with no penality. Why? Barbarians are still winded afterwards, and even they don't get to Rage against basically every opponent.
I see your point, but also realize that Barbs get their rage at level 1 and it scales. This ability arrives at 14 and does not scale. But I agree it needs to be changed a bit to distance itself from Rage. Any ideas?


Puddle of Blood - So, making a savings throw, and if failed, they need to hold their breath for 12 rounds (average 4 rounds per successful roll, 3 successes needed) or auto-die? What if they don't need to breathe? What if the affect ends while they're "under water"? Characters can hold their breath for twice their Con SCORE, so the average person has 20 rounds to escape. And yes, I need to add in more clauses like you mentioned.


Right now, this is just a mismash of random abilites thrown together in a class. I think you need a bit more cohesion before the class starts working the way you want it to.
Yeah, you are probably right. I'm not going to make any more changes tonight. I'll get some sleep (as it is late) and think it over tomorrow. Thank you for your suggestions.

Bajaaku
2008-09-22, 10:10 AM
Thank you all for your valued input and critiquing. I have made a HUGE update to the class. Many things have been changed and a new Bloodletting ability was added (completely different than before). I PLEASE ask that you reread the first post that has all of the updated information before replying, otherwise you may be reading about obsolete material. I think the class is very close to done. I just need some feedback on the new Bloodied Point system I gave the class.

Oh, and if you can think of a better name for the Open Wound ability, please let me know.

Bajaaku
2008-09-22, 05:20 PM
Any of the previous posters want to weigh-in on the new, updated version? If no one has anything to say, I'll assume it's balanced now (I think it is).

Bajaaku
2008-09-23, 11:19 AM
UPDATE: I changed the Fast Clotting and Blood-stained Armor abilities a little bit.

Bajaaku
2008-09-25, 12:19 PM
Updated once more to fix more balancing issues. No one has posted recently to comment on the updates. I will continue to work on it but I would appreciate some more feedback.