the binder

[gnomas]

I dont have a lot of time, but i wanted to make this thread before i forgot about it. a friend of mine is playing a binder for an upcoming campaign. how are binders power wise? what role should they play in a party? what are some good ways to play them? thanks in advance.

[mabriss lethe]

Binders are a solid middle tier in terms of power. They aren't slouches by any means, something along the lines of a rogue, ranger or warlock if I remember correctly.

They're actually a Jack-of-all trades. The vestiges you bind define your role for the day. There's a binder handbook on the wotc forum somewhere that has some darned good advice

[sonofzeal]

I'm playing a Binder right now, and it's going well. It's a thoroughly enjoyable class at any level, and unless there's a really optimized utility wizard in the party, then you'll do well. The closest comparison, IMO, is to the Factotum - both of you can throw out oddball bonuses to weird stuff all day long, but the Factotum is more physical while the Binder is more magical.

I like playing Binders as quirky. It makes the "unfavourable pact" effect more seamless, and it also reflect the off-the-wall nature of the seemingly random stuff the character is able to do. My current one, summed up in one word, would be "addlepated" (mostly due to prolonged exposer to Buer), but you could take it in any direction. My advice is to choose the character's favorite Vistage, and then play up their influence as a major part of the binder's personality. As he levels and gains new Vistages, the personality could potentially change significantly, and that's just all part of the fun. ^^

But yeah, middle-tier in power. CharOp (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968062) rates them a 5.96/10, and that sounds about right IMO.

[Icewalker]

I've played them, but usually not for campaigns that lasted long. To my understanding, they are interesting and have lots of fun RP possibilities, but are a bit underpowered.

[Sinfire Titan]

Note: Binders quickly grow in power when you allow the Web Enhancement that gives them Summon Monster at-will (spell level based on EBL, though I think it capped around SM 5th or 7th).

Otherwise, they are a fine class. Well designed and very helpful to the party.

[Tempest Fennac]

What is the web enhancement called? I saw some Psionic Vestages on WotC's website the other day (I'll try to find the link).

EDIT: Here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a .

[Epinephrine]

I'll point out that they're a really nice class for gestalt, providing a really flexible set of bonuses/abilities to complement your other class.

[Kyeudo]

Gestalt Factotum/Binder anyone?

[Adumbration]

You can also play a very dextrous character, at least low-ish level. Starting with level 3, if you're human with a flaw, or some levels higher if you have neither.

Binder 3, Improved Binding, bind Paimon, get Shadow Blade through martial studies and stances. Makes you very much SAD on dex - dex to attack and damage with a rapier or a short sword. I'm planning on playing it in a zombie apocalypse game soon.

[mabriss lethe]

You can also play a very dextrous character, at least low-ish level. Starting with level 3, if you're human with a flaw, or some levels higher if you have neither.

Binder 3, Improved Binding, bind Paimon, get Shadow Blade through martial studies and stances. Makes you very much SAD on dex - dex to attack and damage with a rapier or a short sword. I'm planning on playing it in a zombie apocalypse game soon.

Binding Paimon at low levels: It's often in your best interest to carry a longspear. It makes dance of death less suicidal since they have to be packing a weapon with reach to get at you with those attacks of opportunity. not particularly familiar with ToB, so I have no idea how that advice might mesh with your idea. (and if they are packing weapons with reach, switch to something smaller and pray none of them have short haft.)

[Chronos]

You should also have a pretty good initiative, especially if you put your Pact Augmentation into initiative bonus. Remember, flatfooted targets (usually) don't get to make attacks of opportunity.

The longspear is still a good idea even without AoO, though, even if only to hit more targets.

[Adumbration]

Good point, I'll remember about the flat-footed enemies. I have been, however, planning on using Pact Augmentation on DR 1/-, mostly to offset the very worst blows. Enemies will also have 20% miss chance, due to Child of Shadow stance.

[Dragonmuncher]

Note: Binders quickly grow in power when you allow the Web Enhancement that gives them Summon Monster at-will (spell level based on EBL, though I think it capped around SM 5th or 7th).

Otherwise, they are a fine class. Well designed and very helpful to the party.

There's a Web Enhancement that gives them Summon Monster at will?

[Adumbration]

There's a Web Enhancement that gives them Summon Monster at will?
I'd like to see it as well, out of curiosity.

[Xallace]

I'd like to see it as well, out of curiosity.

I'm pretty sure I've cracked through nearly every WotC Web Enhancement there is, and I don't remember that one...

Back on topic, I suppose the middling power of the binder is about accurate. Now once you hit epic levels... Well, still middling, but hey! Channeling the soul of a planet? Awesome.

Wait a sec. Let me check that particular enhancement...

EDIT: Nope, nothing. You can summon a Sphere of Annihilation with one of them, though.

[Tempest Fennac]

What does channeling the planet's spirit allow you to do?

[AstralFire]

Google: Binder "Summon Monster"

First result: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Ctrl+F "summon monster" finds:

Summon Alien: You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon. Any creature you summon with this ability gains the pseudonatural template. Thus, at 10th level you could summon any creature from the summon monster I-V list. When you reach 14th level, you can summon any creature from the summon monster I-VII list. You can only summon creatures that can be affected by the pseudonatural template. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

[Xallace]

What does channeling the planet's spirit allow you to do?

Oh boy, a lot. You get some major combat bonuses against Aberrations, Constructs, Oozes, and Undead (Save DCs, AC, Sneak Attacks, Criticals, etc). Unlimited Darkvision (in magic darkness), scent, tracking by scent, blindsight, tremorsense, Speak With Plants/Animals, regeneration, elemental immunity, anyone who hears your voice has to make a Will Save or become friendly... the list goes on.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks, guys (I've often found that search engines are useless when searchiung for this sort of thing). Zceryll looks like a neat Vestage. What's the name of that Planet Vestage, Xallace? I'll try to find it myself later.

[Xallace]

Thanks, guys (I've often found that search engines are useless when searchiung for this sort of thing). Zceryll looks like a neat Vestage. What's the name of that Planet Vestage, Xallace? I'll try to find it myself later.

Gaea. It comes in an article with a giant apocalypse squid and a dead god, plus a bunch of epic binder feats. And no need to search; it's right here! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a)

[Adumbration]

Gaea. It comes in an article with a giant apocalypse squid and a dead god, plus a bunch of epic binder feats. And no need to search; it's right here! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a)

That right there makes me want to play an epic binder.

[Sinfire Titan]

Google: Binder "Summon Monster"

First result: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Ctrl+F "summon monster" finds:

Thanks for doing that AF. Saved me from having to look through the Wizards site all day.

Yes, that is the Pact that gives Binders Summon Monster At Will. Incredibly broken compared to the normal Binder (easily puts them into the higher levels of optimization due to how abusive it is anyway). Summon Monster 7 and 3 are considered the best of the best, and the duration far outlasts the recharge time.

[sonofzeal]

Google: Binder "Summon Monster"

First result: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Ctrl+F "summon monster" finds:
ZOMG!

Even just getting "Pseudonatural" is crazy. Elemental resistances, DR, SR, True Strike, what's not to love? Besides the fact that you're a gibbering lovecraftian horror...

Couple that with Summons all over the place, Mindsight, and a fairly reasonable stun effect, and you've got something pretty terrifying.

[Enguhl]

New Vestige

The following is a new vestige for the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.

Zceryll, "The Star Spawn"

That vestige is stated for use in FR, so unless you have a flexible DM that doesn't mind a horribly overpowered ability, or you are playing FR, its a no-go.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for that link. All of the Epic ones sound neat (and broken).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

ZOMG!

Even just getting "Pseudonatural" is crazy. Elemental resistances, DR, SR, True Strike, what's not to love? Besides the fact that you're a gibbering lovecraftian horror...

Couple that with Summons all over the place, Mindsight, and a fairly reasonable stun effect, and you've got something pretty terrifying.Numerically, Pseudonatural is not much better than Celestial/Fiendish. It's just cooler.

[Chronos]

Also note that you can only summon creatures which could get the pseudonatural template, which takes the elementals and outsiders off the list (which is where the real fun is with Summon Monster). It's still pretty darn good for an at-will (well, 1/5 rounds) ability.

[Kyeudo]

Thanks for that link. All of the Epic ones sound neat (and broken).

In other words, exactly like Epic level play.

[gnomas]

since this is for my friend, i'll need to check with him to see what he wants to know more about, and what vestiges he was thinking of using.

until then, a side note: i heard that hellfire warlocks go very well with a binder vestige that lets you recover constitution loss. anyone know which one this is and where i can find it?

[The Glyphstone]

Naberius, he gives you Fast Healing 1/round for Ability Damage. He's one of the default vestiges in ToM.

Oh, and I don't think anyone has mentioned Silverclawshift's vestiges yet. Pure win.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

since this is for my friend, i'll need to check with him to see what he wants to know more about, and what vestiges he was thinking of using.

until then, a side note: i heard that hellfire warlocks go very well with a binder vestige that lets you recover constitution loss. anyone know which one this is and where i can find it?Hellfire Warlock. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3)

[gnomas]

i meant wher can i find the vestige, not hellfire warlock. sorry if i wasnt clear.

I dont know a lot about the different vestiges, so i have to ask: how far can they go into each role (arcane caster, melee, etc)? do they just offer support to each or can they fill in completely?

[Draz74]

i meant wher can i find the vestige, not hellfire warlock. sorry if i wasnt clear.

Naberius, from Tome of Magic.


I dont know a lot about the different vestiges, so i have to ask: how far can they go into each role (arcane caster, melee, etc)? do they just offer support to each or can they fill in completely?

Mostly support. Infinite healing, but very slow and not until Level 4 or so. Great skill bonuses to a few skills (and lots of sneak attack), but not enough to make you a well-rounded skill monkey even with the ideal array of vestiges. A fair array of save-or-suck spells and area-effect-blasting spells, so that you can use such a "spell" every round in combat, but not nearly as versatile as a full caster when it comes to utility effects. You might be able to become a full-fledged melee tank with the right vestiges, though.

[Chronos]

Different vestiges are good for different things. Some are more offensive, some are more defensive, etc. Binders get a lot more interesting at 8th level, when they can bind multiple vestiges at once, so you can start looking for combos that complement each other well.

[sonofzeal]

I dont know a lot about the different vestiges, so i have to ask: how far can they go into each role (arcane caster, melee, etc)? do they just offer support to each or can they fill in completely?
Blaster - nothing too ridiculous. Expect to come out similar to Warlocks in this category, low-ish on damage but high on reliability and repeatability.

Melee - Aym gives sundering goodness, Eligor gives extra damage and bonus strength, Savnok gives heavy armor proficiency and lets you summon a pretty badass suit. Mix and match these (and others) to get what you need.

Healing - Buer. Infinite free healing is always great. Not worth it for combat medics, but you'll never half to enter combat at half health again.

Utility - too many to count. My favorite is Karsus, who gives you a massive pile of Dispel Magic effects to toss around. Truly great for counterspelling at the right levels, since Dispel Magic counters everything even without special feats or training. Also good for suppressing magic items, beating traps, etc.