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Kyeudo
2008-09-21, 10:46 PM
I'm running a 4th edition campaign in real life, but I've come on a snag. The plot I want to run involves the PCs being sent to investigate a set of caves that might contain a dragon. The problem is that the PCs are level 1 and the Dragon I want to use (a large Blue) is something like lvl 13.

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless, so it was an option, but in 4th Poison doesn't cut it anymore, as it does very small damage compared to a Dragon's hit points even when it does get through.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do instead?

EDIT: I should probably make this clear. I am not worried about the fight. By the time that the PCs do any dragon fighting, they will be capable of accomplishing the task. What I need help with is what gear I should provide my PCs with to make the employer not look crazy for sending level 1 PCs on a mission to deal with a possible dragon.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2008-09-21, 10:54 PM
Find a lower CR dragon? Make the caves big enough to level them high enough. Let them know in game they're in over their heads and need to become more powerful first.

sleepy
2008-09-21, 10:56 PM
hang on a second, this sounds eerily familiar...

I think I'd best avoid this thread from now on.

RTGoodman
2008-09-21, 11:09 PM
My first suggestion would be to use the rules in the DMG to drop the Blue down to be a Level 9 Solo Artillery and wait until the PCs are level 5 before they actually fight it.

Alternatively, you could just homebrew a whole new creature at around level 5 that's a "Blue Dragon" but at a lower level and without all the tricks. If you follow the DMG guidelines, it should be pretty balanced. That'd make it a very difficult encounter, but a beatable one.

Colmarr
2008-09-21, 11:14 PM
Avoid this combat like the plague. You'll either (a) kill your players, (b) create an expectation that they can take on and kill big stuff, or (c) give them way more xp and treasure than the game assumes that they'll have.

Make the mission all about avoiding the dragon. I know I'd find that an intriguing prospect as a player - investigating a strange place on an urgent mission and knowing that certain death was lurking somewhere nearby.


It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

You'd be surprised what PCs will agree to if the price is right (and it's pleasantly easy in 4e to make the price right. Just make one or two of the level-appropriate treasure parcels "payment in advance").

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-21, 11:25 PM
I'm running a 4th edition campaign in real life, but I've come on a snag. The plot I want to run involves the PCs being sent to investigate a set of caves that might contain a dragon. The problem is that the PCs are level 1 and the Dragon I want to use (a large Blue) is something like lvl 13.

It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless, so it was an option, but in 4th Poison doesn't cut it anymore, as it does very small damage compared to a Dragon's hit points even when it does get through.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what I can do instead?

While this was possible in 3rd Edition as you say, the 4E game designers decided that it didn't make sense for a 1st level party to be able to cheese their way through a significantly higher level encounter. (Think about it, it doesn't really make sense. If it could be done by 1st level PCs, it could be done that way by anyone, since it's the poison doing all the work.) So they rebalanced the game so things made more sense, and now the King has to hire brave and experienced adventurers to kill an adult dragon. In short, your proposal goes against the 4E philosophy.

Note that these kinds of changes are also what keeps the 4E Wizard from single-handedly owning everybody and making the rest of the party irrelevant, since monsters now require teamwork and a whole party of PCs powerful enough to actually fight them.

All that being said, now I'll try to actually help you out. :smallwink:

On page 78 of the Monster Manual (right next to your Level 13 Adult Blue Dragon) is a Level 6 Young Blue Dragon. The Young Blue is still Large sized, and aside from the numbers being lower, is almost identical to the Adult version. I would say you should probably also reduce it down to Level 4 (using the technique described in the DMG) unless your PCs are going to level up before fighting it. A party of 4 or 5 Level 1 PCs should be able to take out a Level 4 Solo as long as they are well rested and still have all their dailies.

Kyeudo
2008-09-21, 11:28 PM
The problem is that the reason the party will end up out there is dealing with whatever is going on at the location, which includes the dragon if it's there. They probably won't be level 1 when they get there, probably more likely level 3 ish, but that still puts even a toned down dragon outside their threat range without something to even the playing field a little.

And yes, Sleepy, this is a conversion of the adventure you're running. I'm having to change a ton more than I though in converting it over.

Asbestos
2008-09-21, 11:50 PM
Um... give them a bunch of tanglefoot bags?
Anyway, a level 3 party vs a level 6 dragon (the youngest one from the MM) qualifies as a 'hard' encounter according to the DM guide. Its going to be a challenge, not all the heroes might come back, but it is a completely conceivable encounter. If we reduce it to level 4 it becomes a 'standard' encounter for a 3rd level party, but this is a dragon we're talking about, its supposed to be hard. So yeah, make sure they're well rested and either taken on nothing so far that day or only a bunch of level 1 encounters where they won't be popping off their dailies (unless they have poor resource management skills)

KillianHawkeye
2008-09-21, 11:53 PM
Well, if they're going to be Level 3, then they should be able to take on the Level 6 dragon with only moderate to serious (as opposed to extreme) difficulty. And if anybody asks, you can say that reports on the dragon's size must have been a little exaggerated (but not by much since they're both Large creatures).

Of course, if you mean that they'll be fighting the dragon plus some other monsters at the same time, that's still going to be a TPK.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-22, 12:19 AM
I'm a big fan of the "Dragon as Hidden Danger" approach. Make the Dragon's Caves a vast network of tunnels that are just chock full of Kobold Cultists. The main entrance into the lair is accessible only by air, so if the PCs want to investigate they'll have to go through the tunnels.

The lower tunnels are very narrow, but they get larger as they get nearer to the Dragon. This gives the PCs "safe" areas to wander in, and with some well-planned atmospheric encounters (close encounters and the such), they can get a sense of where the dragon can go.

Add in the ruins of a some great keep that the Dragon needs the kobolds to loot, and some hobgoblins who are currently occupying the keep, and you have an Adventure Path well up Paragon!

Mewtarthio
2008-09-22, 12:58 AM
It's only a possibility that the creature is inside (at least to them), but I don't want it to seem like their employer is sending them on a suicide mission, so I want to send them prepared for the possibility.

Give them a magical smoke bomb loaded with dragon pheremones. If they see Big Blue, they drop it and run like the Nine Hells. Ideally, the pheremones will distract the dragon enough that they can escape and report the success/failure of their mission.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-22, 01:06 AM
Tell them to make dwarf characters, and bring along a hobbit. :smalltongue:

Fri
2008-09-22, 01:22 AM
Make it plot related? Like, a puzzle boss or something.

Maybe they have the dragon's weakness. Or they have some kind of special trap for the dragon. Maybe the dragon have a weakness for carrot. Something like that. Like, those boss in video game who you can beat in battle, but with great difficulty. There's a better way to deal with it rather than battling it directly

don't forget to make it clear that battling it directly mean painful death. Say it again and again, directly and indirectly.

It's their fault if they still choose to face it in direct battle.

BobVosh
2008-09-22, 01:25 AM
Make it plot related? Like, a puzzle boss or something.

Maybe they have the dragon's weakness. Or they have some kind of special trap for the dragon. Maybe the dragon have a weakness for carrot. Something like that. Like, those boss in video game who you can beat in battle, but with great difficulty. There's a better way to deal with it rather than battling it directly

Go Smaug on him, and give him a weak spot.

HIT THE WEAK POINT FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE!

Khanderas
2008-09-22, 01:27 AM
Make the mission all about avoiding the dragon. I know I'd find that an intriguing prospect as a player - investigating a strange place on an urgent mission and knowing that certain death was lurking somewhere nearby.
What ? That is Crazytalk, stop talking crazy, you crazy person.
Adventurers murder kill dispense justice and steal loot redistribute assets, specifically dragonhoards.
Sneaking around only makes it easier for the dragon to prepare, attack head on and victory shall be assured, because the GM justice is on our side !
This comment is a work of fiction, character suicide optional.

Colmarr
2008-09-22, 01:40 AM
What ? That is Crazytalk, stop talking crazy, you crazy person.
Adventurers murder kill dispense justice and steal loot redistribute assets, specifically dragonhoards.
Sneaking around only makes it easier for the dragon to prepare, attack head on and victory shall be assured, because the GM justice is on our side !
This comment is a work of fiction, character suicide optional.

What? You've never had to escape a prison being assaulted by an overwhelming force of hobgoblins and warforged, where being discovered meant almost certain death (depending on where and how well you ran)?

I have. It was the start to an Eberron campaign, and it was probably the single most tense session I've been a part of. :smallcool:

EDIT: Ironically, my quote displayed your spoiler, which I hadn't previously discovered. You tricksy little hobbit!

RTGoodman
2008-09-22, 02:07 AM
Tell them to make dwarf characters, and bring along a hobbit. :smalltongue:

Except, you know, that it's their fault there's a dragon about (and a war going on at the same time!), and they had to find a human fellow named BARD to stop said dragon! Harrumph. Hobbits and dwarves indeed.

:smallwink:

BobVosh
2008-09-22, 02:14 AM
Except, you know, that it's their fault there's a dragon about (and a war going on at the same time!), and they had to find a human fellow named BARD to stop said dragon! Harrumph. Hobbits indeed.

:smallwink:

Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

RTGoodman
2008-09-22, 02:23 AM
Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

I don't see the problem - it was good enough for Bard, the hero of Laketown and eventual King of Dale. (See also: The Hobbit, which is what Tokiko and I were referring to.)

Also, 'tis a noble profession that's not silly at all, what with the singing at monsters and whatnot.

(I'd link an old Chainmail Bikini strip if they hadn't gotten rid of the comic after it ended, but sadly they did)

Talic
2008-09-22, 02:24 AM
A rogue with a good sense of irony?

Charity
2008-09-22, 05:49 AM
I can't understand why the OP objects to
'get a white dragon, spray it blue, have an encounter that is reasonable for a 1st level party.'

nagora
2008-09-22, 06:01 AM
The Dragon is arrogant; if they do meet it then it talks to them rather than bothering to attack a bunch of newbies. Think of some reason the dragon might want to talk (perhaps it wants information about who might be thinking of sendin in real opposition; perhaps the PC's patron and the dragon have some history etc) and run it as a non-combat encounter. If the players are stupid enough to push it into a combat, then they all die effectively at their own hands.

charl
2008-09-22, 06:08 AM
I am a fan of the whole "you don't actually have to fight the dragon personally to kill it"-approach. That is have some kind of secret hidden in the dragon's cave, that reveals the weakness of the dragon or something like that.

It's not that hard to find some kind of plot-based way around it.

artaxerxes
2008-09-22, 06:12 AM
Dragon is already dead. Only some crazy low level dragon worshipping minions keep up the pretence that their great master isn't gone....

Renx
2008-09-22, 06:26 AM
Who would name thier child Bard? If not, who would take the nickname "bard"?

A bard, maybe?

Gorbash
2008-09-22, 06:31 AM
In 3rd Edition, I would have sent them with a significant dose of poison. A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless,

Sorry to intrude on topic, but which poison is that? Great Wyrms have Fort saves ranging from +28 to +33. Not to mention they're immune to paralysis.

pendell
2008-09-22, 06:54 AM
I regret that I haven't yet read the 4E books, but here's a thought:

Don't make it a straight encounter. Go ahead and make the adult blue dragon as tough as you like. Make it an impossible to win encounter heads-up.

-- then place a one-use-only dragon-killing Macguffin somewhere in the maze.

Or it might not be a Macguffin. Maybe the dragon has sworn an oath to leave forever if someone can steal the Vessel of the Pestle out of his hoard. Or maybe there's an uber-level NPC being held prisoner somewhere in the dungeon who can destroy the dragon if he's released, then leave after the dragon is gone, taking his personal pick from the horde and leaving the rest for the players.

Of course, if you do this, there needs to be some thought for unforeseen consequences. What if the players decide not to use the one-use macguffin to kill the dragon? What if they decide it makes a better treasure than anything else in the horde , then just leave? (Answer: Sooner or later word gets out and all kinds of high-level thieves and bounty hunters are after the party to take the Macguffin from them). If you introduce a high-level NPC, how do we keep him from ruining future adventures (possible answer: He's here under oath, and leaves for an outer plane, never to be seen again). If the dragon has sworn an oath to leave, how long will he/she keep his/her word? (Presto! Instant recurring villain!)

Here's what *I* would do:
-- the PCs enter and come almost immediately face-to-face with the dragon. But it is proud and contemptuous of this pathetic band of adventurers, so much so that it won't lower itself to engaging them in hand-to-hand combat. Instead, it makes a WAGER with them.

.. the wager is some incredibly difficult but level-appropriate task in the dungeon which require brains, skill and teamwork to accomplish. If the PCs win, the dragon will allow them to take whatever-it-is they're trying to rescue away and let them live. If they lose -- the dragon eats them all.

The trick here is to make it less a matter of roll-play and more of a puzzle. Whenever you want your players to face off with a level-inappropriate monster (e.g., hobbits vs. Sauron), you don't want them to ever simply try to tackle said monster in straight combat (as in Call of Cthulhu, where the stats of Cthulhu are simply: You Lose). Instead you need to provide some Macguffin or quest object (the One Ring, the Stolen Data Tapes) which will function as an I Win button for the quest.

That's how the heroes win in any classic fairy tale. They don't win by overpowering the villain , they win by guile and cunning and by out-thinking the villain, exploiting his weakness.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-22, 06:57 AM
Sorry to intrude on topic, but which poison is that? Great Wyrms have Fort saves ranging from +28 to +33. Not to mention they're immune to paralysis.

An excellent question. The best vermin venoms go from DC 28 to 33 (what an amusing coincidence!). A Dex damage poison would paralyze a dragon easily (not the paralyzed condition, but the Dex 0 indirect paralysis), but I don't see any Dex poisons that are likely to work. Colossal centipede poison has way too weak a DC to do the trick.

As for the OP's issue, just lower the level. The excellent guidelines are in the DMG. You can have a perfectly fine level 4-7 Large or Huge dragon (since size doesn't actually affect much of anything, except battlefield space and movement); just make sure you start with a dragon that has a level lower than 11, because level 11+ creatures have extra powers.

pendell also presents an excellent option. Why should the PCs be tough enough to just toe-to-toe the dragon? Uniquely powerful monsters are, traditionally, defeated with uniquely powerful magic or artifacts.

Following that, why should the poison they're given be from the books? D&D 4E specifically encourages, to my mind, ignoring the rules where convenient. There's fewer spells and other crap spelled out, and what rules exist are mostly for combat. Outside of combat, you should feel free to ignore what rules remain, and just go with the story. Maybe the poison is powerful enough to just kill the dragon, no dice involved. (Trying to kill a dragon way above your power in 3.5 with poison is crazy anyway, because you're relying on something like a 50% chance, even with insanely powerful poison, to save your ass from destruction.)

Altharis
2008-09-22, 07:46 AM
This is how I'd run the scenario: A team of enterprising adventurers receive word from a mysterious wizard about a blue dragon terrorising the desert, to help them in their quest, he offers to sell them lightning resist potions at half-price. As they trek through the dungeon, they notice that the lair is surprisingly cold for a desert. After wading through some kobold minions, in an ever-cooling dungeon, they arrive at a chamber and see a kobold wizard trying to poke a sleepy blue dragon! After they defeat the pair, quite easily as the dragon is really tired, they realise that the blue dragon is not a blue, but a white dragon, and that it was suffering from heatstroke. By reading various documents in the kobold wizard's study, they realise that it's originally from the far north, and came up with a plan to steal a white dragon egg, bring it down south where the rich traders pass, pretend it's a cunning and powerful blue, rather than a dumb white, and disguise himself as a human wizard to lure adventurers to their doom. The entire adventure should have the PC's second-guessing their assumptions.

Yakk
2008-09-22, 07:56 AM
Your player's goal is to avoid the Dragon. The King managed to bribe/steal/scout/find out some maps of the Dragon's den[1], which gives a route to get to the thing that the King wants that only exposes you to areas that the Dragon can reach for a short dash at one of 3 spots.

Key to this is some secret Dwarf-build passages in the complex that they are pretty sure that the Kobold could not have found, and a key that opens them.

The players are told, in no uncertain terms, that if they encounter the Blue Dragon, they should just run.

[1] The King found a Kobold map from a dead forager. A scholar in the royal library managed to match the map to an ancient book on Dwarven fortifications -- which provided a more detailed map. The King then offered to send an expedition inside for some historical artifacts in exchange for the secret-passage key, and the PCs are the party the King has picked?

Or something like that. Maybe the Dwarves owed the King, so they sent the King the map and key as a gift to pay off a debt? (with the side benefit of the King causing a bother to the Dragon which is raiding Dwarven lands)

Gorbash
2008-09-22, 09:24 AM
An excellent question. The best vermin venoms go from DC 28 to 33 (what an amusing coincidence!). A Dex damage poison would paralyze a dragon easily (not the paralyzed condition, but the Dex 0 indirect paralysis), but I don't see any Dex poisons that are likely to work. Colossal centipede poison has way too weak a DC to do the trick.

So, they'd need a natural 1 to fail that save, at best. That being said, I still fail to see how's this possible:


A large enough dose on the right poison will have even Great Wyrms paralyzed and helpless

And what's a large enough dose? You can have only one dose on a weapon, and then you'd have to apply it (which takes up time) again, in order to work. While having a Great Wyrm tear you in half, even if you do manage to hit it, with his 40+ AC.

Burley
2008-09-22, 09:44 AM
A simple suggestion:
Have the party going through what they find to be an old Dwarven cavern system, which houses the blue dragon that may or may not exist.
As they wander, they happen upon a great door that, as they approach it, exudes a freezing chill that makes them shiver. Even touching the door is enough to do a small amount of damage, and it they make too much noise, they'll hear a snort, similar (but much louder and more sinister) to somebody waking from a nap.
Hopefully, they'll retreat.
As they wander the rest of the caverns, they'll find some schematics. They'll notice that the room with the frozen door was once a massive forge, and there are pipes running into it from various other places.
Basically, if they can get the heat running back through the pipes, by way of puzzles and combat, they can hopefully melt the ice on the door.

Here's some ideas for puzzles:
A room with pipes running on the ground, which they must roll into position, ala Golden Sun style (if you've played the game). Use a game mat and Linkin' Logs or something similar for effect.
A room with the obligatory Fire Elementals that must be trapped, but not killed. That'll give the pushers a chance to shine. I'm not sure if there are "elementals" any more. Maybe a bunch of Fire Beetles? The trick will be in the "Grey Box"/description text of the room. Make sure you empashize that there are X number of cages with piping attached, 2X the number of beetles, and the cages are sized apporpriately to house one beetle... with a much larger cage to hold the over flow. Give bonus XP for rangling all beetles, without killing any, since the task will be a good deal more difficult than just slaying them.
Maybe a room with a single magma beast, either Claw or Hurler. It must be killed in a certain area so that it's deanimated body will funnel into a holding container attached to a pipe. I'd not put more than one enemy in this room, since it's almost a Solo at their level.


Once the door is melted, the dragon will have been sitting in the warmed room for a bit, and the party should have leveled a bit, too. Maybe, with the heat of the room, the Big Blue could take ongoing fire damage 5 to help even the playing field. Just don't let that be the thing that kills him, or the players will just wait it out.

Hope this is useful.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-22, 09:48 AM
You need the players to hire a dragon slaying expert. Might I suggest...

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/funny-pictures-bird-slays-kitten.jpg

But seriously, a much higher level NPC who tags along with the team and doesn't help right up until the dragon fight might be fun. Especially if he gets walloped a few rounds into the fight, or even runs away when the dragon turns out to be too strong. :smalltongue:

tyckspoon
2008-09-22, 10:10 AM
And what's a large enough dose? You can have only one dose on a weapon, and then you'd have to apply it (which takes up time) again, in order to work. While having a Great Wyrm tear you in half, even if you do manage to hit it, with his 40+ AC.

Lots and lots of Contact poisons applied to ammunition. Dragons are easy to touch. Still probably a suicide mission for low-levels, tho, especially if the scenario requires them to attack the dragon in its lair; they wouldn't have the ability to effectively sneak up on or run away from such an old dragon. And they'd probably need another 5-15 equally suicidal helpers to apply sufficient doses of the poison before the dragon ate them all.

Kyeudo
2008-09-22, 12:30 PM
Thanks to everyone for their help so far. Plenty of good ideas on how to go about dragonslaying at low levels, some of which I probably will use.

But that's not what I need. I need something that I can have their employer do for them or provide them with that will up their chances. The employer wants them to succeed, seeing as if there is a dragon it may well be his army that gets airstriked by it, and when they first find out they will be going to deal with it, they will be level 1. What do I have the employer do to show he's not sending them on a suicide mission?


Sorry to intrude on topic, but which poison is that? Great Wyrms have Fort saves ranging from +28 to +33. Not to mention they're immune to paralysis.

When attempting to poison anything with a high fort save, it's more of quantity than quality. Natural 1s still always fail.


And what's a large enough dose? You can have only one dose on a weapon, and then you'd have to apply it (which takes up time) again, in order to work. While having a Great Wyrm tear you in half, even if you do manage to hit it, with his 40+ AC.

How large of a dose you need depends on which kind of dragon you want to poison and what kind of poison you are trying to use. For the cheap end of things, 20 doses of Oil of Taggit will practically guarantee 1 minute of unconciousness on any dragon, which you then follow with the Rogue coup de graceing the dragon with a scythe and sneak attack repeatedly. Only trouble is getting the dragon to eat a side of beef stuffed with 20 doses of Oil of Taggit.

My personal preference is Terinav Root. 20 doses of Terinav Root will average 10.5 points of Dexterity damage if it only succeeds on a natural 1. Coat 20 coins from the hoard it sleeps on and most dragons become helpless. Up the dosage to 30 and you'll get dragons with above average Dexterity.

Injury poisons are worthless on dragons, so don't bother.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-22, 01:43 PM
My personal preference is Terinav Root. 20 doses of Terinav Root will average 10.5 points of Dexterity damage if it only succeeds on a natural 1. Coat 20 coins from the hoard it sleeps on and most dragons become helpless. Up the dosage to 30 and you'll get dragons with above average Dexterity.

Injury poisons are worthless on dragons, so don't bother.

Bad plan, meet mathematics:

Odds of not rolling any 1s in a series of 20 d20 rolls: 35.9%
In a series of 30 d20 rolls: 21.5%
In a series of 40 d20 rolls: 12.9%
In a series of 50 d20 rolls: 7.7%

This is all assuming the dragon does not know the single best 0-level spell, detect poison, and is generally a freaking idiot. That, and you need to be able to sneak into the dragon's den and poison its hoard.


Edit: Also, I realize the rules are crazy and stupid, but I wouldn't count "touching a dragon's inch-thick scales" as "contact". YMMV.

MartinHarper
2008-09-22, 01:52 PM
The sensible thing to do is to homebrew an appropriate dragon-killing artifact/ritual/item/poison, and give it the rules you want to give it. If you have a crazy and irrational aversion to homebrew, then you can make use of the following insanely dumb idea:

Give the PCs twenty scrolls of Magic Circle (PHB p309), and an NPC with Skill Focus (arcana) and have them draw a series of consecutive rings around the dragon while it is sleeping. With a result of 20(roll) + 5(training) + 3 (focus)+ 10(aid another) +6(int) +1(level), you can get 43 - enough to block all dragons (and indeed all natural creatures) of level 22 or less. The dragon then slowly starves to death.

The New Bruceski
2008-09-22, 03:24 PM
So you're sending players against an Adult Blue Dragon well before their time, and looking for an edge that gives them a fighting chance, while leaving them with a boss to fight? Some questions ("forced" could mean "I already told them" or simply "I really want to":

--Are you forced into it being an adult blue dragon? If not, if simply "dragon" then you could change the age, or use a drake instead, and blame confusion on inexpert witnesses. Rage Drake is level 5, and could easily be a blue variant (no elemental issues, just change the pigment).

--Are you forced into it being by-the-book? If not then monsters' levels are tweakable by a few levels (rules in the DMG), or you can take another age category's stats and call it a weak adult. Or both.

--Are you forced into the dragon being the real fight? If not, you could give the party some sort of deadly one-use item (DM Fiat poison, Black Arrow, etc) and make the real fight either a skill challenge of getting it to work (say it must go in the mouth, for example) or unexpected allies (as you cheer, congratulating each other for pulling off the "Destroy Blue Dragon" ritual you had on a scroll, you hear a monstrous voice behind you. "Daddy?" it asks tremulously, "what happened to Daddy? You're bad men!" and charges in, tears flying.)

Kyeudo
2008-09-22, 04:45 PM
Bad plan, meet mathematics:

Odds of not rolling any 1s in a series of 20 d20 rolls: 35.9%
In a series of 30 d20 rolls: 21.5%
In a series of 40 d20 rolls: 12.9%
In a series of 50 d20 rolls: 7.7%

This is all assuming the dragon does not know the single best 0-level spell, detect poison, and is generally a freaking idiot. That, and you need to be able to sneak into the dragon's den and poison its hoard.


Okay, so I never took statistics. I always forget there are those crazy DMs that actually will roll 20 fortitude saves instead of using a statistical distribution (5% Nat 1s, 5% Nat 20s, 5% for all the numbers inbetween).


So you're sending players against an Adult Blue Dragon well before their time, and looking for an edge that gives them a fighting chance, while leaving them with a boss to fight? Some questions ("forced" could mean "I already told them" or simply "I really want to":


I'm looking for something to have their employer equip them with so that he doesn't look like he's sending them on a suicide mission. I want them to feel this is something that they will be able to accomplish when they find out the general outline of the mission without having to metagame "the GM would never do that to us."



--Are you forced into it being an adult blue dragon? If not, if simply "dragon" then you could change the age, or use a drake instead, and blame confusion on inexpert witnesses. Rage Drake is level 5, and could easily be a blue variant (no elemental issues, just change the pigment).


The plot calls for a dragon, and one of at least large size. I built it up to the players as having been around for quite a while and having been a menace to that particular region 20 years ago.



--Are you forced into it being by-the-book? If not then monsters' levels are tweakable by a few levels (rules in the DMG), or you can take another age category's stats and call it a weak adult. Or both.


Nope. If it comes down to combat with the dragon, I'll definately tweak it down a few levels. With all the options people have already presented, I'm sure I can make it work with whatever level the party is if/when they do run into the Dragon.



--Are you forced into the dragon being the real fight? If not, you could give the party some sort of deadly one-use item (DM Fiat poison, Black Arrow, etc) and make the real fight either a skill challenge of getting it to work (say it must go in the mouth, for example) or unexpected allies (as you cheer, congratulating each other for pulling off the "Destroy Blue Dragon" ritual you had on a scroll, you hear a monstrous voice behind you. "Daddy?" it asks tremulously, "what happened to Daddy? You're bad men!" and charges in, tears flying.)

I want to avoid cheapening dragons in my campaign with instakilling Maguffins. Once you give players the option of one-shotting a dragon once, they'll want to do it again. Or they'll feel cheated.

Colmarr
2008-09-22, 10:53 PM
I want to avoid cheapening dragons in my campaign with instakilling Maguffins. Once you give players the option of one-shotting a dragon once, they'll want to do it again. Or they'll feel cheated.

And yet ultimately the whole point of this thread to is find a maguffin that doesn't seem like a maguffin. I just don't think it's going to end well for you.

Kyeudo
2008-09-22, 11:45 PM
And yet ultimately the whole point of this thread to is find a maguffin that doesn't seem like a maguffin. I just don't think it's going to end well for you.

There's a difference between an edge and a Deus Ex Machina, and I don't even need it to be a particularly effective edge rules wise (my players are just as new with the 4th Ed rules as I am). I just need to have it seem like their employer isn't going "Well, you're expendable and might get the job done before you die. Go kill this dragon, or at least give it indigestion on the way down."

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-22, 11:47 PM
There's a difference between an edge and a Deus Ex Machina, and I don't even need it to be a particularly effective edge rules wise (my players are just as new with the 4th Ed rules as I am). I just need to have it seem like their employer isn't going "Well, you're expendable and might get the job done before you die. Go kill this dragon, or at least give it indigestion on the way down."

Dude, anything that lets 1st level characters have a decent chance to kill an Adult Dragon is Deus Ex Machina. I mean, couldn't the Duke find someone at least level 2 to give such a powerful item to?

You're better off having a bunch of sidequests before the PCs can take down the Dragon. I'm using the same strategy in my own campaign, actually, and it's working out good so far :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-23, 12:17 AM
Okay, so I never took statistics. I always forget there are those crazy DMs that actually will roll 20 fortitude saves instead of using a statistical distribution (5% Nat 1s, 5% Nat 20s, 5% for all the numbers inbetween).

But that's not the distribution - the math proved that. If you roll 20 d20s, you won't get 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... 19, 20. You'll get, say, 3, 6, 19, 20, 20, 5, 7, 4, 16, 16, 8, 11, 10... There's a one-in-three chance that you won't get a single 1. At the very least you should just roll a d100 against 36 to see if the dragon gets poisoned. (Turning twenty rolls into one.) It's not like it's hard to figure out the odds: 0.95^X, X being the number of d20 rolls required.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 12:32 AM
Dude, anything that lets 1st level characters have a decent chance to kill an Adult Dragon is Deus Ex Machina. I mean, couldn't the Duke find someone at least level 2 to give such a powerful item to?

You're better off having a bunch of sidequests before the PCs can take down the Dragon. I'm using the same strategy in my own campaign, actually, and it's working out good so far :smallbiggrin:

I don't need it to give them a decent chance mechanically. I need it to seem like it gives them a chance, that their employer is just stuck in a position where the best people to make the attempt are my PCs, but is still making every effort to give them a fighting chance.

How about I phrase the question differently. If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?

Colmarr
2008-09-23, 01:07 AM
How about I phrase the question differently. If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?

Firstly there's a difference between 5 levels and 12 levels. 5 is at least doable with good tactics, preparation, and lots of luck. At 12 you might as well lie down between two pieces of bread.

I probably wouldn't accept a mission to kill a beast that was so far out of my league without some major firepower at my command. And in D&D that usually equates to NPCs.

Maybe another way of doing this is to set up the adventure so that PCs aren't required to kill the dragon, just incovenience it somewhat. Maybe the dragon has a crystal ball that it uses to scry on the area and the Duke needs that advantage neutralised. So he hires the PCs to go in and get it.

No one available is powerful enough to kill the dragon, but there are some other adventurers who might survive long enough to act as decoys. They draw the dragon out at a critical moment to allow the PCs to grab the crystal ball.

The PCs get the fun of poking a villain in the eye, you get a recurring villain with a grudge against the PCs, and you have a ready-made showdown set up for when the PCs are level 8ish.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-23, 02:16 AM
How about I phrase the question differently. If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?

That depends on my level (and the edition). In 3.5, a single-monster encounter with a monster of CR X+5 (where X = party average level) is pretty doable, if very challenging. It's about par for the course for dragon encounters. (Dragons of CR less than X+3 are too easy, generally.)

If my level were under 10 or so, I'd bugger off, or scour the land for artifacts or powerful allies (like, I don't know, mid-high level wizards) to help defeat the dragon, if it's absolutely necessary. (Or I'd go find wands of shivering touch and metamagic rods of reach, if the DM is silly enough to allow those.)

In 4E, I'd go for the first option - find a dragon-slaying artefact (that basically negates the entire combat encounter), or a professional dragon-slayer or powerful wizard.

The New Bruceski
2008-09-23, 02:47 AM
If I had to fight one, I would look for some way to bypass it or its effects. If I just had to get past it, I would approach with an eye on ways around, or look for an item that helps my stealth (a la Bilbo's ring) prior to going that way. If I knew combat was necessary I'd look for ways to boost my power, check libraries for any items of legend, particularly granting lightning resistance, or look through lore for a way to weaken it. I would not go in blindly hoping for the best, but if whoever gave me the task didn't have anything to help, I wouldn't give up.

Gorbash
2008-09-23, 05:37 AM
Okay, so I never took statistics. I always forget there are those crazy DMs that actually will roll 20 fortitude saves instead of using a statistical distribution (5% Nat 1s, 5% Nat 20s, 5% for all the numbers inbetween).

And the PCs will of course know that they need 20 doses of poison to succesfully poison the dragon, because it's a common fact that dragons need a natural 1 to fail their save. PCs shouldn't be even thinking in those terms (that's called metagaming), let alone trying to do it. Of course, not that they would be able to sneak upon a dragon in its lair...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-23, 10:47 AM
How about I phrase the question differently. If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?

Five, I might try it, though only very carefully. But even not knowing a thing about the level of the dragon, I'm not going to try and kill one at first level.

As metaknowledge, I'd assume the DM wanted us to gather allies or find sidequests to level up before trying to take the beast on. As a PC, I'd try to round up as big a band of dragon-hunters as possible, and possibly try to find if there is some legendary anti-dragon weapons somewhere nearby we could quest for.

I would, as a character, be surprised if the Duke gave us said anti-dragon technology, since I'd presume he had liegemen who were more powerful than some puny novice adventurers.

So, framed that way, I'd have the Duke post a bounty on the dragon, and then have the PCs "discover" directions to a retired dragon-slayer's retreat or rumors of a dragon-slayer's tomb. In this sense, the dragon is merely a framing device for the campaign, which involves finding the anti-dragon gear, and a variety of sidequests along the way. No way I'd send the PCs after a dragon at level 1 though.

BardicDuelist
2008-09-23, 10:59 AM
This is how I'd run the scenario: A team of enterprising adventurers receive word from a mysterious wizard about a blue dragon terrorising the desert, to help them in their quest, he offers to sell them lightning resist potions at half-price. As they trek through the dungeon, they notice that the lair is surprisingly cold for a desert. After wading through some kobold minions, in an ever-cooling dungeon, they arrive at a chamber and see a kobold wizard trying to poke a sleepy blue dragon! After they defeat the pair, quite easily as the dragon is really tired, they realise that the blue dragon is not a blue, but a white dragon, and that it was suffering from heatstroke. By reading various documents in the kobold wizard's study, they realise that it's originally from the far north, and came up with a plan to steal a white dragon egg, bring it down south where the rich traders pass, pretend it's a cunning and powerful blue, rather than a dumb white, and disguise himself as a human wizard to lure adventurers to their doom. The entire adventure should have the PC's second-guessing their assumptions.

This (assuming that they are around level 3 and have to fight it). Anything else is bad DMing. Yes, I said it. Having PCs take on and encounter 12 levels above them is bad DMing (especially in 4e). If they are supposed to run and decide to fight, it's bad playing, but you are obviously trying to make a way for them to fight it. Again, that's asinine.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 12:38 PM
How is "Dragons are notoriously hard to poison, so if you even want to attempt it you need to use a lot" metagaming?


This (assuming that they are around level 3 and have to fight it). Anything else is bad DMing. Yes, I said it. Having PCs take on and encounter 12 levels above them is bad DMing (especially in 4e). If they are supposed to run and decide to fight, it's bad playing, but you are obviously trying to make a way for them to fight it. Again, that's asinine.

I realize that putting Lvl 1 PCs (or lvl 3 PCs) against a Lvl 13 Dragon would be a VERY BAD IDEA. I am constrained in just how much I can say here, however, because I have players playing through a 3rd Edition version of this campaign and I don't want to spoil the plot for them. I think they are staying out, but then you can never fully be sure.

People have given me plenty of ideas on how to make any combat with the dragon work out so that the PCs can survive it, so I'm fairly sure I can manage that without causing a TPK.

When I converted to 4th Edition, the method I used to make the PC's patron not look like he was throwing their lives away became obsolete. I need a new method so I can get them on to the side quest I have planned, else they will end up running into a dragon at level 1.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-23, 12:45 PM
Dragons are smart, greedy, and have personalities. Why would the PC's need to fight the dragon at all? Have them:

A) Bring a suitable bribe.
B) Need to talk/sneak their way past the dragon.
C) Get their butts kicked and have the Dragon demand a service in exchange for not eating them.

Gorbash
2008-09-23, 01:02 PM
How is "Dragons are notoriously hard to poison, so if you even want to attempt it you need to use a lot" metagaming?

Bringing exactly 20 doses, assuming it will roll a natural 1, is metagaming. Of course, it wouldn't work, since that dragon wouldn't sit idly for those 20 attempts of poisoning. I'm just pointing out the fact that the best way to kill a dragon in 3.5 is not by poisoning it. It's by casting maximized or empowered Shivering Touch, which is incredibly cheesy and shouldn't be done.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 01:58 PM
Bringing exactly 20 doses, assuming it will roll a natural 1, is metagaming. Of course, it wouldn't work, since that dragon wouldn't sit idly for those 20 attempts of poisoning. I'm just pointing out the fact that the best way to kill a dragon in 3.5 is not by poisoning it. It's by casting maximized or empowered Shivering Touch, which is incredibly cheesy and shouldn't be done.

The dosage needed to affect a creature is based on how strong the poison is and how hard it is to poison a creature (the DC of the Poison and the creatures Fort Save bonus). In our universe, physical characteristics of a creature are observable and quantifiable. You can figure out body weight and average state of health. In D&D, the same general process would give you an idea of a creature's Fort Save bonus. Since it is possible to determine this for any creature, given enough education and experience with those creatures you can calculate the needed dosage or at least make a general guess. As this is all based on knowledge that a character with good ranks in Knowledge(Arcana) or Knowledge(Nature) could have and observable characteristics of the creature, that takes it back out of the realm of metagaming.

Or, instead of having to explain it like that, you could just call it an acceptable break from reality and go with it.

I was never saying it was a good way to kill a dragon, just that it was a possible way for a lvl 1 party to kill a dragon. Shivering Touch always works much better, but not everyone can cast Shivering Touch.

MartinHarper
2008-09-23, 01:59 PM
If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have?

I'd want a plot device. The collection of Magic Circle scrolls I mentioned above would do fine.


When I converted to 4th Edition, the method I used to make the PC's patron not look like he was throwing their lives away became obsolete.

Not obsolete. You just need to convert the 3e poisons into 4e rules:

Twenty Doses of Terinav Root [MacGuffin]
What is this "statistics" you speak of?
Smearing precisely twenty coins of a dragon's hoard with this contact poison, before they lie down upon their hoard to sleep, is guaranteed to paralyse them for the whole of the next day.

Gorbash
2008-09-23, 02:03 PM
I was never saying it was a good way to kill a dragon, just that it was a possible way for a lvl 1 party to kill a dragon. Shivering Touch always works much better, but not everyone can cast Shivering Touch.

Neither can a first level party come within 100 feet of a dragon without him noticing them, let alone actually hitting him to apply the poison. Or sneaking upon him and poisoning his food (not that he would eat 20 doses of it, after eating the first). Let alone in his lair.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 02:20 PM
Neither can a first level party come within 100 feet of a dragon without him noticing them, let alone actually hitting him to apply the poison. Or sneaking upon him and poisoning his food (not that he would eat 20 doses of it, after eating the first). Let alone in his lair.

Which is why it's a matter of stealth and planning for the PCs to be able to poison the dragon. You have to figure out it's habits without getting seen (likely by observing from an extreme distance or with magical disguises), get in, poison either it's next meal or something that is likely to come in contact with, and get out unseen. If the dragon is paranoid and scans everything it eats with Detect Poison, you have to poison something it isn't likely to survey.

An optimized Hide or Disguise monkey has a pretty decent chance of not being noticed, especally with minor magic boosting the check and the spot penalty from staying 100 ft away from the dragon. Once you know it's daily routine, you make your move and pray your dice don't fail you against whatever precautions it has taken in defending it's lair.

pendell
2008-09-23, 02:28 PM
what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?

As a certain character told is in Start of Darkness, there's a level of power at which no tactics are effective, no subtlety can help.

One of the first lessons a person learns tactically is to pick battles; to choose fights which are winnable and avoid those which are high-risk. Sending level 1 PCs against a dragon is the classic example of such a no-win situation.

I don't envy you. You have very limited choices: If you want the PCs to be able to do this toe-to-toe, you're going to have to give them such buffs and magic items and allies as to make the encounter seem "cheap". Basically, all they do is show up and press the "I Win" button. It won't be a satisfying win. You could also nerf the dragon, which also means "unsatisfying win". Or you could just set it up straight, in which case any PC in his right mind will run from combat.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Gorbash
2008-09-23, 02:31 PM
An optimized Hide or Disguise monkey has a pretty decent chance of not being noticed, especally with minor magic boosting the check and the spot penalty from staying 100 ft away from the dragon.

And what's he going to do when he's 100 ft away? Shoot it, hoping for a natural 20, then hoping the dragon will roll a natural 1?


If the dragon is paranoid and scans everything it eats with Detect Poison, you have to poison something it isn't likely to survey.

Ok, let's say they do manage to poison his food without him noticing them (unlikely, but let's pretend). He certainly won't eat 20 doses of it without realizing he's been poisned. Poisoned foot tastes funny at best.

And even if he fails that one save, taking 1d6 dex damage, secondary effect also requires Fortitude save, so he must get two natural 1s in order to be paralysed.

I'm sorry, but your tactic isn't really viable.

busterswd
2008-09-23, 02:58 PM
The plot calls for a dragon, and one of at least large size. I built it up to the players as having been around for quite a while and having been a menace to that particular region 20 years ago.

Has he been making his presence known these past 20 years, or did he just wreck things and disappear for a bit, leaving the land in relative peace? You could always say that the employer has sent out several scouting expeditions. Each time the intel gathered has been that the dragon has not occupied his lair for the past x amount of time; most of the notoriously large dragon horde has vanished. In addition a group of mooks has been seen operating out of the notoriously territorial dragon's lair. The fact that they haven't been torn to shreds yet, on top of most of his horde being gone, and on top of the dragon not being seen, has lead their employer to believe that the dragon has left for greener pastures.

Burley
2008-09-23, 03:15 PM
Ok, let's say they do manage to poison his food without him noticing them (unlikely, but let's pretend). He certainly won't eat 20 doses of it without realizing he's been poisned. Poisoned foot tastes funny at best.

I'm sorry, but your tactic isn't really viable.


Most foot tastes "funny at best." :smallbiggrin:

But seriously. I agree so hard. This could be a really fun thing, but, without sessions of level grinding, you're resorting to Deus Ex Machina.
A low roll sucks, especially in 4e because they don't scale as well as defenses do.
Your 1st level party isn't going to be able to do things thing easily. They're gonna be hoping for 20s, and that's gonna be the only balanced way to do things.

But, look at the dragon, for two hot seconds, please. Maybe you didn't notice but even it's weakest attacks can knock out anything lower that... 5th level maybe. Not to mention it's a Solo, has 2 action points and usually uses an action point in the First Round of Combat. If your players jack up 1 roll and the dragon notices them, which it will, they're all fodder. Probably in the one round.

If this is a story thing, the rest of the story is gonna be gimped. Horribly gimped.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 03:31 PM
I appreciate everyone who is trying to help, but most of you are trying to help me with the wrong thing.

I am NOT worried about the encounter. By the time my PCs are going to be fighting dragons, they will be capable of pulling it off.

However, when the employer sends them on the mission, they will be level 1, so I need something that the employer can do for them that will convince them that they have a shot at surviving the whole thing.


And what's he going to do when he's 100 ft away? Shoot it, hoping for a natural 20, then hoping the dragon will roll a natural 1?


He's going to figure out it's daily habits. He'd be insane to shoot it. If you know what a dragon does every day, then you can exploit that routine to your advantage.

Anyone attempting to use Injury poisons on a dragon deserves to be eaten alive.



Ok, let's say they do manage to poison his food without him noticing them (unlikely, but let's pretend). He certainly won't eat 20 doses of it without realizing he's been poisned. Poisoned foot tastes funny at best.

And even if he fails that one save, taking 1d6 dex damage, secondary effect also requires Fortitude save, so he must get two natural 1s in order to be paralysed.

I'm sorry, but your tactic isn't really viable.

First, my pick of poison is a contact poison, not ingested. Ingested poisons are trickier to use because you can just scan anything you intend to eat with Detect Poison.

Second, there is no RAW support for poisoned food tasting different. It's a DM's choice thing. I make it a Wisdom check to notice in my own games.

Third, yes, you would need 2-3 failed saves to paralyze a dragon. For each dose of Terinav Root that he is exposed to, he has to make 2 saving throws. That means that with 20 doses, the dragon would need to make 40 saving throws. That's alot of chances to fail.

Gorbash
2008-09-23, 03:58 PM
Well, it's not like Dragons have Wisdom in their 20s... Oh wait, they do.



Third, yes, you would need 2-3 failed saves to paralyze a dragon. For each dose of Terinav Root that he is exposed to, he has to make 2 saving throws. That means that with 20 doses, the dragon would need to make 40 saving throws. That's alot of chances to fail.

That would have to be a really really stupid dragon to fall for that. I mean, come on, who wouldn't figure out after dozen or so saving throws that something's seriously wrong? Even if you do figure out its daily habits and sneak into his lair and smear that poison everywhere (unlikely for a 1st lvl character, but I'm willing to let that one through), that dragon will figure it out after his first failed save that's something's wrong. He certainly won't keep touching stuff until he's paralyzed!

The Glyphstone
2008-09-23, 04:18 PM
I appreciate everyone who is trying to help, but most of you are trying to help me with the wrong thing.

I am NOT worried about the encounter. By the time my PCs are going to be fighting dragons, they will be capable of pulling it off.

However, when the employer sends them on the mission, they will be level 1, so I need something that the employer can do for them that will convince them that they have a shot at surviving the whole thing.


.

Why not just a Macguffin placebo? their employer gives them a "Magic Charm of Hiding From Dragons" that supposedly will make them invisible to all dragons - it actually does squat, but if the only important thing is the characters believing they're safe, you're good. Plus, it's a lot cheaper than buying an actual MCOHfD (for the NPC, that is).

pendell
2008-09-23, 04:19 PM
I appreciate everyone who is trying to help, but most of you are trying to help me with the wrong thing.

I am NOT worried about the encounter. By the time my PCs are going to be fighting dragons, they will be capable of pulling it off.

However, when the employer sends them on the mission, they will be level 1, so I need something that the employer can do for them that will convince them that they have a shot at surviving the whole thing.


Help me understand. Surviving what 'whole thing' again?

If it's 'avoid the dragon and accomplish some quest like steal-the-item', then some invisibility items, stealth items etc. would greatly help them.

If the mission involves 'fight the dragon', then just stop there. It's not survivable. No one in his right mind would send 1st-level Newbs out to fight a dragon unless they were sending them to their deaths.

If I were a player , I would say "forget it. No way." If the DM persisted, I'd hand over my character sheet and roll up a new character. Save time all around.

It seems to me that the big question here is defining the problem in the first place. If you can give them a job 1st level PCs could reasonably accomplish -- avoid the dragon, steal the thing or kill this monster -- then they probably aren't going to need much help at all.

If this is one quest as part of a campaign, again the same thing; give them something they could do that will start them level-grinding towards a competitive party. Which means avoiding the dragon, not engaging it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-23, 04:28 PM
I appreciate everyone who is trying to help, but most of you are trying to help me with the wrong thing.

You already got a million excellent answers that solve your problem perfectly. There appears to be nothing left except to observe the silliness of some of your silly ideas (like using natural 1s to kill dragons).


Incidentally, applying all those doses of poison? You know what 1-in-20 chance you've got there? Oh, yes indeed. Following your "20 saves means one automatic failure" logic, the PC doing the poisoning will be poisoned too.

MartinHarper
2008-09-23, 04:37 PM
[Real life] Do poisons typically have a taste, or are they normally tasteless?

[3e] Do the rules as written allowed creatures to know when they have made a successful saving throw?


I need something that the employer can do for them that will convince them that they have a shot at surviving the whole thing.

[4e] How about a Bluff? If I was hiring some dopes to go on a suicidal mission for me, I wouldn't tell them the truth.
* "It's actually a large winged cat - perfectly harmless, but I made it sound impressive to keep the people in a state of fear. However, it has outlived its usefulness to me now, and I require some 'heroes' to go through the motions of killing it."
* "I have a series of dragon-killing items for you. First, cover yourself in this sticky brown goo - full immunity to fire, or your money back. Then charge in to slay the beast with your enchanted lettuce sword and mystical sesame sword bun shield."
* "If you die, I'll have my best priests use this priceless diamond to raise you from the dead. I certainly have no other use for the things than in saving the life of a bunch of heroic adventurers I have just met."
* "If you go out to try to slay an evil dragon, even if initially it is an impossible task, Bahamut will smile upon you, and he will grant you power at an extraordinary rate. Why, you should gain a significant increment in power after killing just ten lesser monsters each, engaged in such a heroic quest."

Yakk
2008-09-23, 04:38 PM
I don't need it to give them a decent chance mechanically. I need it to seem like it gives them a chance, that their employer is just stuck in a position where the best people to make the attempt are my PCs, but is still making every effort to give them a fighting chance.

Barring cheese or mercy, a party of a half dozen level 1 PCs should not be able to survive a hostile dragon, let alone defeat it.

Anything that can let the PCs defeat it is, by definition, cheese.

So now that that is out of the way -- if you want a plot point that the characters stand a chance against the Dragon through some trick, use a MacGuffin.

A sword of dragon-slaying that is rumored to be able to cut through the scales of a dragon as if they where paper. A vial of poison that turns it's victim to stone. Etc etc. Hell -- the sword could be specially forged using the blood that the dragon spilled the last time a hero tried to defeat it (and died).

By design, in 4e, it requires an act of DM fiat for a level 1 party to stand a chance against solo monster much higher level than them. That is what is supposed to happen.

But you are the DM -- if you want DM fiat, then you can have it.

As noted, the technique doesn't have to work, it just has to be convincing.


How about I phrase the question differently. If you were a low level PC and knew you were on a mission to kill a dragon that was 5 or more levels above you, what gear would you want to have? What tactics would you employ to try and survive the whole mess?
Bring an army? Recruit a more powerful champion to do it for me -- either an ally, or an enemy of my enemy? Run away?

At 5 levels above you, it could probably be survived with luck and alot of resource burning. At 6, it is getting questionable. By 9 or 10, you must be kidding: it's attacks with basically auto-hit you, your attacks will auto-miss, it will have so many HP that even a lucky hit won't matter, and it's damage output would be enough to slay you in a single hit.

DM Raven
2008-09-23, 04:52 PM
You could have him warn them that the trip is just meant for information gathering and that they should avoid fighting the creature at all costs. IF the local peoples don't know there is a dragon in the cave, it probably arrived there recently and may, himself, be trying to keep a low profile for some reason. People usually know when a dragon moves into the nearby area, and if they don't know they soon find out.

There employed could believe the dragon to be hiding and wounded so he expects it will not try to attack them right away.

The employer could be a bit crazy...it's not like adventurers don't engage in risky/insane activities on a daily basis.

Kyeudo
2008-09-23, 06:29 PM
Well, since everyone who has weighed in so far was unable to provide a solution to my problem short of a macguffin, I'm going to accept that there is none. Now to rewrite that section of the campaign to something a little less lethal. Thanks everyone for the help.

AKA_Bait
2008-09-24, 08:59 AM
I am NOT worried about the encounter. By the time my PCs are going to be fighting dragons, they will be capable of pulling it off.

However, when the employer sends them on the mission, they will be level 1, so I need something that the employer can do for them that will convince them that they have a shot at surviving the whole thing.



How honorable is this employer? He could just... lie to them. Either by telling them that he knows the rumors of the dragons size and power are exaggerated, by giving them some sort of 'magical tool' that will mess up the dragon, or by informing them of a 'weak point' in the dragons defense that they could easily exploit. Heck, these could even be honest mistakes on his part.

MartinHarper
2008-09-24, 12:22 PM
Since everyone who has weighed in so far was unable to provide a solution to my problem short of a macguffin...

Solutions so far:
* Macguffin
* Bluffs by the employer
* Scrolls of Magic Circle
* Convert 3e contact poisons to 4e rules
* Army of commoners
* Dragonslaying hero, possibly named Bard.

A few more:
* Convert 3e wand of Shivering Touch to 4e rules
* Raise Dead rituals
* Divination rituals ("will we get eaten by a dragon if we go into the caves?")

The New Bruceski
2008-09-24, 12:58 PM
For that matter, the mission could be "find a way to stop the dragon, and then do so." Sends the PCs because they're resourceful and expendable.