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Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 07:41 AM
I was thinking about making a Barbarian, and I found the Combat Form feats on http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl before deciding that they look interresting, but I've got some questions about how they work. Does Combat Focus class as a Combat Form feat as far as calculating bonuses from having extra CF feats is concerned, and when it mentions feats granting larger bonuses when you have a certain amount of them, is the feat which is getting the bonus included in the total? (Eg: If you had Combat Focus, Combat Vigour and Combat Stability, would you need another CF feat to get Fast Healing 4 from CV?)

Thrawn183
2008-09-22, 07:45 AM
I always read it as you only needing the three feats.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 07:51 AM
That's what I thought (I just assumed it would be a bit cheap to get the enhanced bonuses that easily). My idea for feats is to get a Flaw before taking the following feats:

1 Power Attack and Cleave.
3 Combat Focus.
6 Combat Stability.
9 Combat Vigour.
12 Font of Life.
15 Great Cleave.
18 ???

(If I can't find a Flaw which wouldn't be too cheesy, I'd move Cleave and everything else forwards while replacing Font of Life with something if I need another CF feat to get the bonuses.)

Also, I'm guessing that Combat Focus is supposed to end as soon as thr fight is over, right?

Frosty
2008-09-22, 07:53 AM
Well, not really. You don't *know* when an encounter is over. You've felled the last visible foe...but there may be more lurking. so your adrenaline will keep on pumping until the combat focus ends.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 08:03 AM
That is a good point. Would my feat selection be effective? I ws thinking that Wild, http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wild,all , would fit the character while not being too much of a hindrance to me while having an effect (I was thinking of using the Trapsmasher variant as well).

Frosty
2008-09-22, 08:04 AM
What are you trying to do with your character? That's the first thing I need to know.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 08:12 AM
I'll need to explain their background. A while back, I had a dream where I was a female Gnoll who had joined a (mainly) human organisation which was opposed to Yeenoghu (she was there due to feeling as though the fact that so many Gnolls worship him was dragging the whole race down, and the fact that he's male was a problem as well if I remember correctly). My idea is for the character to be as self-sufficient as possible. I'd be using my LA 0 Gnoll variant (+2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Cha, +1 NA, 60' Darkvision, a 1d6 Bite Attack and Spot and Listen always as class skills).

In regards to skills, my idea was to keep Survival maxed out while dividing my other skill points between Spot, Listen, Jump, Swim, Ride and Climb (the latter 2 skills would fall behind at the start due to spending 2 skill points to become literate). Using a 32 PB, my stats would be Str 16, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14 and Cha 6. My idea is to put points from levels into Str. She's also Chaotic Neutral with Good tendancies.

Frosty
2008-09-22, 08:28 AM
I'm asking what do you want her to be able to do mechanically. Do you want her to be able to deal a lot of physical damage? Do you want her to be a Tank? do you want to fight lots of small things or be good at taking down a few big things? There's a million ways to do a lot of damage. It really depends on how you want to do it, and what books you have access to.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 08:33 AM
I can access pretty much any books due to having friends with them. I'm mainly focussing on tanking (I like my character's a bilities to correspond to their personality).

Frosty
2008-09-22, 08:49 AM
With Tanking, you can't go wrong with a Crusader. The 8th levle stance Immortal Fortitude means hell will freeze over before you die from hitpoint damage. Take feats to limit your foes' movements like Stand Still and make sure you have Combat Reflexes. Take Mage Slayer if you want to stop casters from casting as well. If you really want to make sure you make all your saves, then dip one level into Warblade at level 9 or something and take the Diamond Mind Maneuvers that allow you to make Concentration checks in place of your saves. Never fail a save again!

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 08:51 AM
Thanks for the advice, but I specifically wanted the character to be a Barbarian.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-22, 08:54 AM
Barbarians are not prohibited from multi-classing with ToB classes. I prefer Warblade to Crusader, for even more hitting power and the ability to dump Cha. ToB is almost designed to be dipped in, enhancing the abilities and flavor of fighting classes. What's your starting level?

Frosty
2008-09-22, 08:56 AM
Same concept applies. You'll want things to boost your HP in addition to battlefield control feats. Improved toughness is ok to make you last longer. Are you going pure barbarian? Barbarians can also benefit from feats related to charging. Shock Trooper and Leap attack is a staple in being able to do very good damage.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 09:02 AM
I'm not planning on multi-classing at all. How many HPs does Improved Toughness add and what are the prequisites? I'm not sure if I'll have enough spare feats to take charging-based things (I didn't want to get rid of the CF feats).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-22, 09:06 AM
Imp. Toughness adds 1 hp/hd. In other words, it's like getting d14 HD. :smallbiggrin: And no prerequisites. Have you considered dumping 2 points of Dex and dipping a level of Fighter for a bonus feat and Heavy Armor proficiency. It will hurt your skills, but boost AC and give you another much-needed feat.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 09:10 AM
That is a good point. I was planning on using the normal Barbarian type (I don't think there's a Hyena Totem variant, and the others don't fit the character). I'll consider that one thanks. I'll need to check what I'll be missing apart from 2 skill points and an extra HP or 2 first, though.


EDIT: Actually, I'd get free Literacy due to the multi-classing. Won't multi-classing penalties be a problem if they are being used, though?

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-22, 10:03 AM
That is a good point. I was planning on using the normal Barbarian type (I don't think there's a Hyena Totem variant, and the others don't fit the character). I'll consider that one thanks. I'll need to check what I'll be missing apart from 2 skill points and an extra HP or 2 first, though.


EDIT: Actually, I'd get free Literacy due to the multi-classing. Won't multi-classing penalties be a problem if they are being used, though?

I would suggest re-flavoring boar totem into heyena totem since they are both extremely tenacious animals. Free diehard feat, extended raging and improved damage reduction will go VERY well with the fast healing from your combat form feats and mesh with your character concept.

And yes, I would recomend improved toughness over Font of Life. The extra defense against level drain is very specific and will be inefective against 90% of enemies you face (unless you already know you'll be facing a lot of that kind of monster). Extra HP is always useful (especially with your fast healing and damage reduction!).

EDIT: As the below poster says, great cleave is not your best bet at high levels. I believe there is a feat that improves damage reduction by 1 that might be cool for your barbarian.

EDIT: EDIT: Greater Resilliancy from Complete Warrior. At level 15 (when you'd get greater resiliancy), with combat form and Heyana (boar) totem, you'd have DR 5/- and fast healing 4, netting you a 9 HP cushion every round. Combined with your high con and rage, improved toughness, and die hard from your totem, you will be very hard to take down.

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 10:07 AM
I wouldn't take fighter at first level. I'd take it at 2nd at the earliest, depending on what feat you want to grab with it.

Combat Focus feats are pretty solid. The fact that they get better the more you take, and give you bonuses that are otherwise hard to come by (stability and fast healing are solid) is pretty nice. You typically won't lose your focus in a given fight.

All that said, I'd avoid Great Cleave. Cleave is ok, even better with a reach weapon (I'd go Glaive if I was you, since you are only using it for damage). Your odds of dropping 2 high level foes in a round without stuff like Leap Attack is low. You'll still make the 1 extra attack a round, which IMO is worth the first feat.

EDIT: Depends on what the favored class for Gnoll is. I'd assume Barbarian, in which case you'd be treated as a Fighter1 since Barb levels would be ignored. With no other class levels, you'd be fine.

Also, are you using PHBII retraining rules? Extra Rage is very worth it at low levels, but evenually becomes redundant when taking multiple Barb levels. If you can take it early, and replace it later, I'm sure you'll get a ton of mileage out of it.

Eldariel
2008-09-22, 10:19 AM
To answer the issues in order:
-Combat Focus is a Combat Form-feat (in PHBII, it's listed under "Combat Form Feats", which is sorta a dead giveaway), so picking 2 others will get you the increased benefits.
-It's still hugely expensive - a character normally gets 7 feats over 18 levels and you have to burn almost half of those on Combat Form. Then there're must-haves like Power Attack and Extra Rage and you're left grasping for the few remaining feats to actually do something.
-Improved Toughness requires Base Fort +2. That means you qualify at level 1. However, the benefits are somewhat redundant as you already have Con as one of your main stats and D12 HD, so the percentual gain is rather low. Basically, small hits aren't gonna kill you even now and then extra HP/HD isn't gonna do much against the really big hits or the save-or-dies that do pose a threat to you.
-Do pick the Fighter-level on 2-forward. As you yourself pointed out, you gain Literacy so you actually lose no skillpoints in that regard (you get -2 compared to normal, but gain an ability worth 2). And the proficiencies and extra feat are sorely needed.
-I suggest Extra Rage early on. Also, I've always been underwhelmed by Cleave - it's so specific it rarely kicks in unless you manage to make opponents gang up on you.
-I'd try to pick up the "Trapkiller" alternative class feature from Dungeonscape. Being able to find traps is a lifesaver when you're in the front and also makes you a natural frontliner (which is where the Barbarian always belongs anyways).

sonofzeal
2008-09-22, 11:06 AM
Keep in mind that the flavour for Combat Form is of a deadly calm, not a wild rush of adrenaline. Check with your DM about using it with Rage.

Other than that, I really love that series of feats. It's a lot, but you get great benefit out of them if you've got three. Where else are you going to get Fast Healing 4 from?

And yeah, Cleave is profoundly droppable. Extra attacks are nice, but any fight it kicks in regularly on, you were probably going to win anyway.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-22, 11:29 AM
Keep in mind that the flavour for Combat Form is of a deadly calm, not a wild rush of adrenaline. Check with your DM about using it with Rage.



There is no mechanical reason the two should not be wed. I see no real flavor reason, either, personally. You can reflavor one or the other, or just say that the rage and the combat focus are both part of a powerful combat trance that overtakes the barbarian.

Also, the +4 to will saves meshes well with the barbarian's indomniable will ability. With high HP good saves, fast healing and DR you'll be more un-killable than a monk and with the damage output of a raging, power attacking barbarian.

Rad
2008-09-22, 11:29 AM
Steadfast Determination is a good feat since people tend to use will saves to shut down meleers; I don't remember what it requires to qualify for it though.

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 11:35 AM
I dunno, I've found cleave to be remarkably useful on my 15th level Living Greyhawk character, at least 2-3 extra attacks per module played. Having a reach weapon makes its 100% more useful (my guy has a Spiked Chain). He didn't actually take the feat, but received a curse in a module that blurs his vision when separating the body and soul of a foe, causing him to cleave wildly (yea, REQUIRED cleave force you to consider carefully your positioning so you always have an enemy nearby to cleave into so you don't have to cleave a friendly). I never would have taken it on my own, but I've found that since I've gotten it, I'm surprised by the number of opportunities that it actually comes up in.

I remember one encounter specifically, where I was the lone BDF fighting a group of advanced trolls (~170 hp each). My 15th level fighter mutt gets 5 attacks a round (3 iteratives, +haste +flurry of strikes) and hits for ~60 damage per hit with 10 points of PA while fully buffed. 3 attacks were spent on one troll, dropping it, allowing me to cleave and make 3 attacks on the 2nd troll, also dropping it. Without cleave, I would have sucked up a full attack claw claw bite rend, which the advanced troll would have done about 80-100 damage with, and that would have severly hurt my ~160ish hp, especially since there was another troll there who also would have done similar damage, thus having a good chance to drop me barring some kind of intervention. As a fighter, you often have at least 2 foes within melee range, so cleave is a decent feat. Great Cleave, however, is crap, and only very very situationally useful, and usually only in a fight you could easily mop up in an extra round anyway.

EDIT: Literary example of Rage + Focus. Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series' champion Richard wields the Sword of Truth. When fighting with the sword, its described feeding him anger and rage when drawn. Richard learns to harnass and channel this rage to give him superior prowass in battle. Focused rage, rather than violent flaming fury.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 12:25 PM
Thanks for all of the advice. My idea was to take the Fighter level at level 2. Gnolls have Ranger as Favoured Class, so multi-classing penalties could kick in. I'll probably use a reach weapon as well (I may take the feat which allows you to use those weapons on opponants next to you in place of Improved Toughness, which is what I was thinking of buying with the Fighter Bonus Feat). I like the Boar Totem idea as well (it would fit with minimal re-flavouring). I agree that CF and Rage should work together without any real problems due to how they are both concerned with killing enemies while changing your mental state. I'll look into Steadfast Determination as well. In case I can't find it, what does it do?

EDIT: I found the details. That feat fits perfectly as well thanks.

Grynning
2008-09-22, 12:37 PM
Does your DM really strictly enforce the multi-classing penalty and/or the favored class rule? I've never played in a single 3.5 game where that was really a factor.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 12:39 PM
To be honest, I've only ever really plated over IM as a LE Halfling Beguiller in a solo game due to none of the group games really starting (I'm a member of Wolverhampton University's RPing club now, so I'll hopefully be able to play live soon).

AstralFire
2008-09-22, 12:39 PM
Does your DM really strictly enforce the multi-classing penalty and/or the favored class rule? I've never played in a single 3.5 game where that was really a factor.

I played in one in 3.0. This same guy also banned PrCs that aided in combining class levels.

For various reasons (if you're going to seat of your pants DM, which I do, do it well. Don't tell me the room we were in just spontaneously exploded us into another dimension because we were getting bored) of which that was only one I never played under him again.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 12:43 PM
He sounds like a poor DM, AF. I never understood MC penalties from a fluff perspective (or a crunch one to be honest, especially since multi-classing loses levels in classes you've already got temporarily).

Hurlbut
2008-09-22, 12:48 PM
There is no mechanical reason the two should not be wed. I see no real flavor reason, either, personally. You can reflavor one or the other, or just say that the rage and the combat focus are both part of a powerful combat trance that overtakes the barbarian.
Right, there are different forms of rage, you have the screaming, spit spewing hot raging one, then you have the cool, calm, steely looking rage.

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 01:04 PM
Tempest, I wouldn't take Short Haft or EWP: Spiked Chain, or even including Armor Spikes in your case. Those are really only important in lockdown control type builds, which you are not going for. When you are just looking for damage, a solid glaive alone will serve you well. MOST of the time, if you are fighting non-reach medium sized foes who get within your attack range, you can simply take a 5' step back to make your full attack. Armor Spikes might still be useful, so you have some kind of attack option in a grapple or while swallowed whole, but not hugely necesary. As a meleer though, having reach is more about being able to counter your opponents reach, than the AoOs it generates in most lockdown builds. As early as level 2, you might face ogres, and sucking up the AoO to get close to an ogre sucks. THAT is the primary reason why most melee fighters should take reach weapons. That feat would be better spent on something else, probably endurance to lead into Steadfast Determination.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 01:13 PM
Thanks for the advice. A "Hyena" totem Barbarian would get Endurance anyway, and armour spikes would help to combat the Wild flaw.

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 02:22 PM
Actually, screw it, you have a bite attack. You don't need armor spikes. natural weapons > manufactured weapons...

Bite attacks do all 3 types of damage, so they are versitile. They also typically do 1.5x strength damage if they are your sole form of natural attack. Get a druid to cast Greater Magic Fang on you every day, and you don't have to worry much about the most common forms of DR. Then you can focus all of your gold into your primary weapon for your normal damage dealing purposes, and still threaten close with your bite.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-22, 02:33 PM
I was thinking of getting Perminant Greater Magic Fang to be honest thanks (I gave my LA 0 Gnoll a bite attack because it didn't make sense for them to need a feat and Rage to be able to do it).