The Race of... well... Races.

[Draig]

Ok here is a question out there for all the experienced DM's and even the new or just the players.

What are your allowances/restrictions on Player RAces? for instance. the people i play with have asked me before that if they meet the LA Requirements if they can play other races and such. What would YOU do on this, and what are your normal rules about races?

[AstralFire]

Ok here is a question out there for all the experienced DM's and even the new or just the players.

What are your allowances/restrictions on Player RAces? for instance. the people i play with have asked me before that if they meet the LA Requirements if they can play other races and such. What would YOU do on this, and what are your normal rules about races?

I tend to disallow races that have more than 1 LA and/or more than 2 racial hit die. Not because they're overpowered; heavens no, they're rarely strong, human tends to be the most brutally OP in most situations. I disallow them simply because book-keeping begins getting more complicated and they tend to fall behind in the power curve too significantly.

Other than that, anything goes as long as it fits the flavor of the setting.

Or they're not dragons. All dragons must die. Which is generally compatible with the flavor of the settings I run. No dragon people in Eberron, in Planescape, uh... the dragons all spontaneously exploded. My homebrew setting... more things just exploded. Lots of them. Scales. Everywhere.

[BRC]

Generally, any race with LA is rarely worth it, as class levels tend to be superior to things with LA. And though I'm sure there is an overpowered Low-LA race out there, I can't really think of any.

usually races are banned due to the nature of the campaign, for example, if you are supposed to be in a low-magic setting, playing a warforged wouldn't make much sense. Personally, I banned Changelings in my game, but that's because the campaign was fairly subtlety and investigation based (I changed the way Disguise Self worked, got rid of hats of disguise ect) and being a changeling would make things too easy.
Personally, the most overpowered races are Humans and Dwarves.
Humans get more skills and a free feat (not somthing to scoff about), while Dwarvens get Waraxes as a martial weapon. For a TWFing or axe-and-boarding dwarf this can be pretty good.


Edit: Although Orcs can get pretty ridiculous, the PC's got an Orc Barbarian mercenary who I made with very little optimization (All core except for a rage variant from the Cityscape web suppliment which gave him a dex bonus instead of a con bonus). When his only written equipment was a lead pipe he'd ripped off the wall (Greatclub) He was hitting for +12 (1d10+7), before power attacking, at 4th level. He was ridiculous.

[arguskos]

I tend to allow whatever fits in the setting. As a note, I use a houserule concerning HD/LA, since most races are unfairly gimped.

Here's the rule: take whichever is higher (between HD and LA), and add 1 to it. There you go, that's your ECL. Disregard the other number.

For example: Lumi (MM3) have +2 LA and 2 HD. I'd go with 2 HD, add 1, and there you are. A level 1 Lumi cleric has an ECL of 4 (Hit Dice 2+1/Cleric 1).

Another example: Mind Flayers have 8 HD and +7 LA. I'd take the HD (the higher number), add one, and take the result as the ECL. A level 1 Mind Flayer Sorcerer has an ECL of 10 (Hit Dice 8+1/Sorcerer 1).

I've tested it with most monsters players care to take, and it works out nicely. Also, some races just have less LA (drow, aasimar, tieflings, planar handbook races for the most part, etc).

-argus

[TheCountAlucard]

Ok here is a question out there for all the experienced DM's and even the new or just the players.

What are your allowances/restrictions on Player RAces? for instance. the people i play with have asked me before that if they meet the LA Requirements if they can play other races and such. What would YOU do on this, and what are your normal rules about races?

Unless they're going for a class with no actual class features (cough, cough, FIGHTER, cough), I'm actually willing to knock off a few points of LA for some of the stuff with racial hit dice. After all, a Monster Manual ogre is CR 3, yet it's supposedly the equivalent of a 6th-level character before it's picked up a single class level. That's stupid.

As for choosing whether or not to ban a race, it's mostly a case-by-case thing for me, but if it wouldn't make sense in my game, it's probably not going to be allowed.

[Tormsskull]

What would YOU do on this, and what are your normal rules about races?

I will allow any race that makes sense. I'm usually pretty strict about enforcing LA's because usually these races have something that is beyond the core races. I can sometimes be talked into lowering the LA if it seems too high, but this also goes with the understanding that most non-standard races will be treated poorly outside of their home areas.

[Asbestos]

Or they're not dragons. All dragons must die. Which is generally compatible with the flavor of the settings I run. No dragon people in Eberron, in Planescape, uh... the dragons all spontaneously exploded. My homebrew setting... more things just exploded. Lots of them. Scales. Everywhere.

I'm slowly noticing a pattern here... I think, maybe, that AstralFire might not have much love for dragons.

Anyway, I pretty much allow most anything with an LA of 2 or less and up to 3 racial hitdice. Anything above that, in my opinion, just gets ridiculous. Yes, technically you CAN play as an astral deva or a succubus or a fiendish ogre, but I mean... come on! Plenty of 'playable' monsters, while statted out just like everything else are ludicrously unbalanced. Either they're far weaker than their level implies or they have absurdly powerful racial abilities. The 'racial levels' system proposed in Savage Species was laughable as well. The Minotaur you're playing starts out as what... a child? and adventuring causes rapid growth and maturation? But, I digress. Generally LA 2 and 3 or less racial hitdice is a good limit to set, unless you're confident your campaign can handle such excesses.

[Tokiko Mima]

I'm slowly noticing a pattern here... I think, maybe, that AstralFire might not have much love for dragons.

On the contrary! I suspect he has a lot of love for dragons, but it's the love of a taxidermist, or explosives investigator. :smalltongue:

The only high LA race I can think of as being worth it is Pixie, for specifically Warlocks. Pixies make indestructible warlocks. Nymphs can be good in gestalt as well, if they get to abuse their higher than normal druid caster level. If you take a specific view of the rules, you can also make Driders do fun things as well I suppose.

As far as rules, I don't like LA. My policy is that LA+RHD counts toward the level you can start at (i.e. no Astra Devas if the campaign isn't at least level 21 or higher, no Succubi until everyone is playing at level 13+.) However, LA counts for nothing after character generation. You must keep your Racial Hit Dice, and that is your only mechanical penalty for being a monster (there are roleplay downsides as well, of course!)

Following this rule, I only have to be careful of low or no RHD monsters, like Pixies. Races like that need extra houserule balancing.

[Telonius]

Generally, any race with LA is rarely worth it, as class levels tend to be superior to things with LA. And though I'm sure there is an overpowered Low-LA race out there, I can't really think of any.

usually races are banned due to the nature of the campaign, for example, if you are supposed to be in a low-magic setting, playing a warforged wouldn't make much sense. Personally, I banned Changelings in my game, but that's because the campaign was fairly subtlety and investigation based (I changed the way Disguise Self worked, got rid of hats of disguise ect) and being a changeling would make things too easy.
Personally, the most overpowered races are Humans and Dwarves.
Humans get more skills and a free feat (not somthing to scoff about), while Dwarvens get Waraxes as a martial weapon. For a TWFing or axe-and-boarding dwarf this can be pretty good.


Edit: Although Orcs can get pretty ridiculous, the PC's got an Orc Barbarian mercenary who I made with very little optimization (All core except for a rage variant from the Cityscape web suppliment which gave him a dex bonus instead of a con bonus). When his only written equipment was a lead pipe he'd ripped off the wall (Greatclub) He was hitting for +12 (1d10+7), before power attacking, at 4th level. He was ridiculous.

Gnomish casters can be pretty ridiculous as well.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There are 6 races I can think of where the LA is worth it, all of which have +1. Catfolk, especially if buyoff is allowed, hit the sweet spot in terms of LA balance. Underpowered without buyoff, but one of the few races where it isn't a nerf. The Dark template, from ToM, is worth it for sneaks. Mineral Warrior and Feral are both overpowered, but if there isn't LA buyoff, probably fine. The Aasamir and Tiefling are both acceptable with buyoff, but even then are a bit weak, though native outsiderhood is useful.

In all honesty, the most powerful races in the game are Whisper Gnomes, Strongheart Halflings, Desert Kobolds with the Dragonwrought feat, Humans, and Dwarfs. All have no LA, 2 of the 5 are core. Let your players play what they want.

[horseboy]

Usually, when I'm building a setting I narrow down the number of sentient races to under 1 dozen. Anything more and I have a hard time accepting the validity of the socio-economic institutions. Even there, they're not all going to be on the same continent. So, It's either got to be something "local" or a REALLY good back story.

[Prometheus]

I generally require that the race make sense in my setting with minimal stretching. For example, I will not make a separate colony of Strongheart Halflings or Whisper Gnomes just because some chump wants to min-max but I am more than happy to justify a Aasimar or Tiefling living amongst human populace without adding a spot to the map.

This doesn't always work though. I tried to make a setting without elves and the females of the group revolted.

[Hurlbut]

This doesn't always work though. I tried to make a setting without elves and the females of the group revolted.
Uh wow :smalleek:

[Eldariel]

I'd revolt too and I'm a male. Fantasy without Elves =/= fantasy. It's a nightmare.

[bosssmiley]

Ok here is a question out there for all the experienced DM's and even the new or just the players.

What are your allowances/restrictions on Player RAces? for instance. the people i play with have asked me before that if they meet the LA Requirements if they can play other races and such. What would YOU do on this, and what are your normal rules about races?

LA (and the risible monster classes that derive therefrom) is a terrible system as written. I don't use it in play. CR just about works as a measure of effective power, LA is just gibbering nonsense on stilts.

As for available races: humanoids (+giants at higher levels) and maybe outsiders if we're playing a Planescape-ish game. No monsters.


I'd revolt too and I'm a male. Fantasy without Elves =/= fantasy. It's a nightmare.

The Hyberion Age, Barsoom, Talislanta, Tekumel and Elric beg to differ. :smallwink:

[BobVosh]

I tend to allow whatever fits in the setting. As a note, I use a houserule concerning HD/LA, since most races are unfairly gimped.

Here's the rule: take whichever is higher (between HD and LA), and add 1 to it. There you go, that's your ECL. Disregard the other number.

For example: Lumi (MM3) have +2 LA and 2 HD. I'd go with 2 HD, add 1, and there you are. A level 1 Lumi cleric has an ECL of 4 (Hit Dice 2+1/Cleric 1).

Another example: Mind Flayers have 8 HD and +7 LA. I'd take the HD (the higher number), add one, and take the result as the ECL. A level 1 Mind Flayer Sorcerer has an ECL of 10 (Hit Dice 8+1/Sorcerer 1).

I've tested it with most monsters players care to take, and it works out nicely. Also, some races just have less LA (drow, aasimar, tieflings, planar handbook races for the most part, etc).

-argus

You have just made the Rakshasha ungodly good.


I'm slowly noticing a pattern here... I think, maybe, that AstralFire might not have much love for dragons.

Then he is a good man


I'd revolt too and I'm a male. Fantasy without Elves =/= fantasy. It's a nightmare.

Your nightmares are the stuff of my dreams. I like D&D, but hate elves and dragons (and all variant of them such as half-dragon, dragon shaman, water elves, eladrin etc)

As for races it usually depends on the level of the game. For whatever reason our dms allow more HD + LA at higher level games. I find this funny as more HD + LA the more they suck. Mostly.
For the most part we all play 0 LA simply because we don't like dying due to stupid rules for monsterous races.

[Cheesegear]

You have just made the Rakshasha ungodly good.

They aren't already?

[BobVosh]

They aren't already?

Now imagine it with 6 less LA, but same HD

[AstralFire]

I'm slowly noticing a pattern here... I think, maybe, that AstralFire might not have much love for dragons.

Was wondering how long it'd take someone to notice. :D


On the contrary! I suspect he has a lot of love for dragons, but it's the love of a taxidermist, or explosives investigator. :smalltongue:

You forgot swordery.


Then he is a good man

Your nightmares are the stuff of my dreams. I like D&D, but hate elves and dragons (and all variant of them such as half-dragon, dragon shaman, water elves, eladrin etc)

I tolerate Eladrin but regardless please be having my babies.

[BobVosh]

I tolerate Eladrin but regardless please be having my babies.

I dunno, something about "teleporting around the battlefield, cloaked in the mysteries of the feyworld" that sets me off. (Pardon if my quote is wrong, at work and forgot my jump drive :smallannoyed: )

And only if we can raise them to remove psuedo-magical people that take 100+ years to learn basic survival skills, like using a knife and spoon before 50 years old.

[Dhavaer]

And only if we can raise them to remove psuedo-magical people that take 100+ years to learn basic survival skills, like using a knife and spoon before 50 years old.

You know they got rid of that in 4e, right?

[AstralFire]

Well, I tolerate them because they are "whoosh we teleport, whoosh we are capricious and frail" not "I grew up in the woods and I'ma bishounen and I'm better than you!". Any human can grow up in the woods and be a bishounen.

And sure. Spoons must be rusty, though.

[BobVosh]

You know they got rid of that in 4e, right?

I will admit I have not read 4th even 1/8 as much as 3.x

[Dhavaer]

I will admit I have not read 4th even 1/8 as much as 3.x

All the races in the PHB are noted to mature at the same rate as humans except dragonborn, who mature faster, and tieflings, who have no mention made to their aging.

[DigoDragon]

Or they're not dragons. All dragons must die.

And


I like D&D, but hate elves and dragons (and all variant of them such as half-dragon, dragon shaman, water elves, eladrin etc)

Okay... yeah, see this? This is why we dragons are always secluded, grumpy, and eating adventurers. :smalltongue: I allow my players to play pretty much any LA+0 race. They all taste the same with ketchup. I never liked the paperwork for anything with a level adjustment, but none of my players ever had a pressing need to play something with LA so rarely we've had one join the group.

[leperkhaun]

my group allows most things. However we also rarely if ever allow LA buy off.

Its also dependent on the game.

[Waspinator]

Dragons make hilarious PCs though.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4199/dragonpcsrq7.png

[Tokiko Mima]

You forgot swordery.

Sorry! I figured that part happened before you stuff and mount them on your mantlepiece. :smallwink:


Dragons make hilarious PCs though.

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4199/dragonpcsrq7.png

I wonder who Princess is?

[The_Snark]

Perhaps it's a lost dog.

As for races, it depends on the game; I tend to accept anything that fits into the style of play. In a low-level urban game, I prefer standard races. In a game focusing on a single Outer Plane, outsiders native to that plane would be appropriate (with level adjustments tweaked as necessary to make characters playable). In a Sigil-esque game, pretty much anything goes as long as it can be played well. In fact, that's the general rule; if a player can sell the concept to me, I'll go with it.

[Waspinator]

Perhaps it's a lost dog.

And isn't she adorable?
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8531/mm35pg151ny2.jpg

[Sstoopidtallkid]

And isn't she adorable?
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/8531/mm35pg151ny2.jpgHey! I have Malconvoker whose pet is missing. Where'd you see her?

[Tokiko Mima]

Hey! I have Malconvoker whose pet is missing. Where'd you see her?

Did your Malconvoker by any chance offer a thousand times the force of gravity at sea level as reward for finding her pet? :smalltongue:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Did your Malconvoker by any chance offer a thousand times the force of gravity at sea level as reward for finding her pet? :smalltongue:Yes, as well as a use of it's flame breath. You'll have to find your own coal, though.

[Waspinator]

In all seriousness, I really do want to play a Dragon as a PC in some campaign someday. Probably would use the Dragon issue 320 "classes". Pick one of the types that gets an alternate form ability to disguise yourself as a human or whatever in towns and you'd be able to function in most campaign settings without too much difficulty. I'd probably want to multi-class at some point. A Dragon Warblade sounds neat.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There's a dragon out there with 7HD and no LA. The Ambush Drake, IIRC. The closes thing to playable of any of them.

[Draig]

lol just to add on to the dragon thing...


Draig is old celtic (one of the irishman languages :-p idk i have a bad decipher script check) for dragon:smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

There's a dragon out there with 7HD and no LA. The Ambush Drake, IIRC. The closes thing to playable of any of them.

LA +0, or LA -? they're quite different things - I've never seen any dragon with LA =0 before.

[Yahzi]

risible
I just like that word. :smallbiggrin:



Elric beg to differ.
What? I thought Elric was an elf!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

LA +0, or LA -? they're quite different things - I've never seen any dragon with LA =0 before.LA 0. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) wordiness

[Tokiko Mima]

LA 0. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a) wordiness

Ok, that's wierd. Why does the Ambush drake at 7th Class level have 9 class levels in Scout, but at 13th class level it has 13 levels in Scout?

The Ambush Drake is listed in MM3 as having LA ---, but the template class at that WotC link suggests that either template classes are meant for NPC's only, or that LA --- means LA 0 to WotC now. The later of which is admittedly crazy, but I'm rolling my new LA 0 That Damned Crab Mike Tyson Incantrix now. Later suckers!