PDA

View Full Version : Snow Flake Wardance trap or not?



Stupendous_Man
2008-09-22, 03:36 PM
hi, i'm trying to figure out if snowflake wardance is worth it or not for a melee bard.

the way i figure it, assuming a level 8 bard with strength 18 and cha 20,

one handed damage is +4, with a +5 attack bonus from SFWD, +4 from strength, and +6 from levels, +15 total.

two handed damage is +6, with an attack bonus of +10

one handed fighting with SFWD can equal the damage from two handed fighting by power attacking for -2. This leaves a +13 attack bonus.

SFWD is better.

of course, two handed fighting allows for great power attack.

a two handed weapon power attacking for -2 gives +10, with an attack bonus of +8

To equal this, one handed would have to power attack for -6, resulting in an attack bonus of +9.

SFWD is less better, but still slightly ahead.

power attacking for -4 with a two handed weapon results in +14 damage, with an attack bonus of +6.

with a one handed weapon, you would have to power attack for -10, resulting in an attack bonus of +5

power attack is superior now, although it would be hard to hit anything with an attack bonus of +6.

It seems to me that Snowflake Wardance is worth it, since most people won't be power attacking with bards until their attack bonus is meaningless.

Is there anything I might have overlooked?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-22, 03:47 PM
Why did you put Str 18 on a Bard? Shove that into Dex and Cha, with Int/Con/Str tertiary. As a Bard, you shouldn't be dealing damage anyhow, that's for your allies. You should be buffing/casting(buffs)/battlefield controlling/disarming. Leave damage to the fighters and the Rogue, your job is just to make everyone else better.

Eldariel
2008-09-22, 03:48 PM
The fact that you usually don't have 18 Str on melee Bard. Also, TWF is generally preferred for melee bards simply because Inspire Courage is so much better with TWF than THF (twice the bonuses, pretty much), which adds an additional level of MAD with Dex-, Str- and Cha-needs for a Snowflakeless Bard, and makes Str-/Cha-Bard simply worse of the two.

Dex also boosts Bard's AC (they do best in light armor or no armor and auxillary sources of AC) and Initiative (always important), which further makes Dex/Cha TWFer Bard feel the optimal way to go in melee. Unfortunately, it'll eat up a huge load of feats to truly get that done (even without going for Shadow Blade, which usually eats up a level and a feat - doable, but painful) unless TWF-line is consolidated to one feat (as it should be), but it allows you to make the most out of your class features for melee.

Stupendous_Man
2008-09-22, 04:55 PM
Why did you put Str 18 on a Bard?

I didn't. I just needed a figure for strength that was higher than 13.

I'm just trying to figure out if the bonus when wielding a single handed weapon with SFWD outweighs the fact that there would be no extra damage from two handed fighting.

ie, trying to figure out of this feat is worth using or not, as I hear conflicting opinions on it.

Hal
2008-09-22, 05:04 PM
If you multiclass Paladin/Bard, you can take Divine Might, which grants your Charisma mod to damage when you power attack for at least one point. It requires you to burn a turn undead attempt, though.

Given your model, you would subtract one from attack and add 6 to damage. It's a nice combo.

namo
2008-09-22, 06:52 PM
As you point out, damage comparisons in a vacuum don't mean much. You need to hit to inflict damage, and SW lets you hit more often.

TWF is fairly natural with SW ; another possibility is to use it for disarming since that uses attack rolls too. Of course, one should only invest in disarming in campaigns with mostly humanoids and other weapon wielders.

So it's definitely not a trap but it's not good for all builds.

Keld Denar
2008-09-22, 07:18 PM
TWF is fairly natural with SW ; another possibility is to use it for disarming since that uses attack rolls too. Of course, one should only invest in disarming in campaigns with mostly humanoids and other weapon wielders.


Read the feat people, you CAN'T USE IT WITH TWF!!! You can't have anything in your offhand. Not another weapon, not the other end of your one weapon, nothing. Its not the be all end all of TWF with DFI, because you can't TWF with it!

The time when 2handed combat is better than 1handed with SFWD is with bardic blends like Bard4/Paladin-Crusader-Warblade16 using Devoted Performer or Song of the White Raven respectively. Then you have 19/20 BAB, so you are able to PA for more, thus pull further ahead of SFWD in damage. You also have fewer bardic music attempts to burn, since you have fewer levels of bard, thus you need to save them for things like Inspire Courage.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-22, 07:23 PM
Read the feat people, you CAN'T USE IT WITH TWF!!! You can't have anything in your offhand. Not another weapon, not the other end of your one weapon, nothing. Its not the be all end all of TWF with DFI, because you can't TWF with it!Benefit: By expending one of your daily uses of bardic music, you may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action, and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand. This bonus to hit stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).
You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load.Nothing about only one weapon. Read it, it says "adds to any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand". Any, not just one.

UglyPanda
2008-09-22, 07:26 PM
Dude, you're wrong. The feat applies to "any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand". Thus, TWF works because they're both in one hand. You might have gotten confused because of this line:

You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing
medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load.

Edit: I failed a ridiculously easy spot check vs ninjas.