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Matthew
2008-09-22, 03:36 PM
Just starting a new thread to prevent the derailing of the Why Should I Downgrade? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91637) thread.



However, it was forgotten pretty quickly as some DM's (those I call fools) started adding class levels to everybody. This lead to the Forgotten Realms problem where the tavern keeper was a 10th level fighter, all the bar maids were at least 3rd level somethings, and the 20 or 30 patrons in the room averaged out at 5th, but they still need your help to fend off the 2 dozen standard kobolds.




Not to start a setting-related flame war, but where does it come from? Yes, some of the bartenders or shopkeepers in FR are listed as 5th level warriors or so, but not even a half of them are 10th level fighters. I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm curious.


The frequency of classed adventurers in D20/3e is about 10%, according to the averages obtained from the demography tables, whilst the frequency in AD&D 1e/2e is probably about 1-2% judging from the discussion in the main rulebooks and ancillary publications. I don't know what the frequency is expected to be in D20/4e, but I did note that the vast majority of the populance are now said to be statted out as minions.

So, can anybody present any evidence of the various levels and demography over editions with regards to the Forgotten Realms? The only thing that leaps to mind for me are the incarnations of Drizzt:

Drizzt 1e - Level 10 Ranger
Drizzt 2e - Level 16 Ranger
Drizzt 3e - Level 16 Ranger (http://www.wizards.com/ForgottenRealms/FR_3E_Drizzt.asp)

...but that could be simple level advancement over time, as much as anything else.

Threeshades
2008-09-22, 03:47 PM
Just starting a new thread to prevent the derailing of the Why Should i Downgrade? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91637) thread.





The frequency of classed adventurers in D20/3e is about 10%, according to the averages obtained from the demography tables, whilst the frequency in AD&D 1e/2e is probably about 1-2% judging from the discussion in the main rulebooks and ancillary publications. I don't know what the frequency is expected to be in D20/4e, but I did note that the vast majority of the populance are now said to be stated out as minions.

So, can anybody present any evidence of the various levels and demography over editions with regards to the Forgotten Realms. The only thing that leaps to mind for me is the incarnations of Drizzt:

Drizzt 1e - Level 10 Ranger
Drizzt 2e - Level 16 Ranger
Drizzt 3e - Level 16 Ranger (http://www.wizards.com/ForgottenRealms/FR_3E_Drizzt.asp)

...but that could be simple level advancement over time, as much as anything else.

What's with that link? in the 3.0 FR Campaign Setting he has a few levels of fighter and barbarian along with it.

Matthew
2008-09-22, 03:51 PM
What's with that link? in the 3.0 FR Campaign Setting he has a few levels of fighter and barbarian along with it.

Yeah, I was looking for that one as well. I couldn't find it, but I am sure I have seen it on the Wizards of the Coast website. I assumed it was 3.5 in the end, but the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting is 3.0, if I recall correctly. I will look into it.

[edit]
Looks like they changed between the release of 3e CR and the 3e FRCS.

3e Drizzt - Fighter 10/Barbarian 1/Ranger 5 (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/fx20010117d)

hamlet
2008-09-22, 04:04 PM
For the most part, my comment about the Forgotten Realms was a joke, though one with a kernal of truth in it.

There is an unfortunate tendancy in that setting for a number of things:

1) Absurdly over powered Mary Sue type NPC's. Elminster is number 1 on that list as he's nothing more than an author avatar by admission. A particularly pre-pubescant one if some of the novels are to be believed.

2) So many NPC's are ridiculously leveled including some 23rd level wizards by the time 2nd edition rolled around. That's just silly.

3) Classed characteres, though probably not as high a level as I jokingly referred to, are rife within the setting. I recall in 2e the captain of the guard of a village with less than 100 people in it was a 4th level fighter leading a group of 20 2nd level fighters.

4) A really bad habit of "Elminster teleports you to MYSTERIOUS LOCATION (copywrite protected) where you are to do some task for him. He could accomplish it in about 9 seconds, but, for UNFATHOMABLE REASONS (copywrite protected) he does not do so."

Morty
2008-09-22, 04:13 PM
Thank you for preventing me from derailing a thread.
Anyway: the reason I made this comment was that statements like "In FR every bartender is a 10th level fighter" are, while partially justified, blatantly untrue. Yes, there are more classed people around than usual, but there's rarely more than one to three perople around 5th level in a small settlement and this someone is often a retired adventurer. They also often have NPC classes. And finally, I'd refrain from calling abnudance of mid-to-high level NPCs a bad thing.
And finally on the topic of Elminster: yes, he's a big fat Gary Sue from what I hear. But he's just one guy who by author wishes is sitting quietly in Shadowvale, so I see no reason for him to get involved in PCs lives if they and DM don't want him to FR is a big setting.

hamlet
2008-09-22, 04:28 PM
Mort: Elminster might just be one guy, but there are many MANY NPC's in forgotten realms that are just silly.

Blackstaff is one.

The Seven Sisters (IIRC) another.

Pretty much anybody who currently bears or has born the title Magus.

The entirety of the Zhentarim high command. (Confusing since Manxam isn't even humanoid)

Pretty much any member of an incorporated adventuring company including all characters ever penned by Greenwood.

Any character penned by Salvatore.

I should also add that more Forgotten Realms adventures are, IMO, reprehensible than any other setting. The worst of them coming from a late 1e early 2e module that, instead of having the PC's do anything, essentially cast them as hapless witnesses. I am not making this up. There was nothing in the module for the PC's to do but watch as the 20th level villainess duked it out with the 20th level, newly resurrected hero. There was no actual contribution they could make beyond staying out of the way.

Morty
2008-09-22, 05:09 PM
Well, the FR are huge and old. So I think it's perfectly justifable to have lots of high level NPCs there, after all, if PCs can gain power, others were able to do this as well. If PCs are lower level than them, they're involved in stuff the big fish don't care about; if they reach their level, they can face them or ally with them. Though generally, I agree that NPCs in FR are over the top; I just don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. I indeed think ultrapowerful mages have their charm. And on a side note, many of the uber-high-level NPCs in the Realms are actually moderately wimpy optimization-wise.
I'm afraid I can't comment on official FR adventures as I've never seen any, especially not for any editions older than 3ed; the two presented in FRCS seem fairly standard.

AslanCross
2008-09-22, 05:35 PM
3E:
Cormyr:
Alusair Obarskyr -- Fighter 7/Ranger 1/Purple Dragon Knight 2
Caladnei -- Sorcerer 11/Fighter 4
Tessaril Winter -- Wizard 12/Fighter 6.

Pretty much all the city and town lords in Cormyr are classed. Most are Fighters or Rangers, but there are a few Wizards.

Also, in the Purple Dragon dossier on Candlekeep, it says all regular members of the Purple Dragons have at least 1 level of Fighter. None of them are merely warriors (that's the militia, I guess.)

Thane of Fife
2008-09-22, 06:51 PM
So many NPC's are ridiculously leveled including some 23rd level wizards by the time 2nd edition rolled around. That's just silly.

To be fair, if you look in the original grey box, you can already see this - Elminster lvl 26. Khelben 26+. The Simbul all the way up there at 30.

I don't think that anyone else broke 18, but I could definately be wrong.


Pretty much any member of an incorporated adventuring company including all characters ever penned by Greenwood.

While I don't know Greenwood, and have no real outside knowledge for thiking this, I'd always assumed that the vast majority of these characters - Doust, Florin, etc. - were all PCs in games which he'd run.


I don't know. I've always found that there's a lot of really cool stuff in the Forgotten Realms - I'm particularly partial to the Cult of the Dragon, and I'll admit to quite liking Blackstaff - but that there's a lot of really weird stuff that you have to throw out. In my opinion, this is what makes it a good campaign setting - there's resources for just about anything you want, and it isn't hard to do away with those things which you don't want.

Matthew
2008-09-22, 07:42 PM
3E:
Cormyr:
Alusair Obarskyr -- Fighter 7/Ranger 1/Purple Dragon Knight 2
Caladnei -- Sorcerer 11/Fighter 4
Tessaril Winter -- Wizard 12/Fighter 6.

Pretty much all the city and town lords in Cormyr are classed. Most are Fighters or Rangers, but there are a few Wizards.

Also, in the Purple Dragon dossier on Candlekeep, it says all regular members of the Purple Dragons have at least 1 level of Fighter. None of them are merely warriors (that's the militia, I guess.)

Interesting. That reminds me, FR15 Gold & Glory, details a number of mercenary brotherhoods, all of which seem to be classed and levelled. A good example, and a very familiar group to those who have played Baldur's Gate, are the Flaming Fist:

Forces in Baldur's Gate

AD&D 2e

Duke Eltan (Level 22 Fighter)
Moruene (Level 20 Wizard)
Scar (Level 16 Fighter)
Koruelve (Level 10 Fighter)
Lendali Firehair (Level 9 Fighter)
Herculus the Hammer (Level 9 Fighter)
Delandria (Level 9 Fighter)
Morgan Redwing (Level 9 Fighter)
Skot-sar of Berdusk (Level 9 Fighter)
Kalvistalk the Hunter (Level 9 Fighter)

10 Rangers
10 Wizards
150 Priests
10 Assassins (the best of which are a pair of elven wizard-thieves)
15 Thieves
1,200 Fighters (550 Level 3, 400 Level 4, 150 Level 5, 50 Level 6)

In the context of the 2e PHB/DMG/MM, I consider that to be somewhat outrageous.

D20 3e

In the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, it seems that Duke Eltan has been rolled back to Level 20, pp. 225-6, but no information on the composition of the Flaming Fist is found therein (to my knowledge).

According to the 3e supplement Enemies and Allies, a typical city guard would be a Warrior 2 and an elite city guard a Fighter 2, pp. 33-4. The city guard commander, Stallas Mon, is a Fighter 6/Rogue 1.

D20 4e

Somebody who has played in this Living Forgotten Realms Module might be able to tell us about the 4e version of the Flaming Fist:



August 20, 2008

BALD1-1 Flames of Initiation

You have come to the city of Baldur’s Gate in search of adventure and quickly discover the Flaming Fist, one of the largest and most powerful mercenary companies in all Faerun. To survive in this teeming metropolis, you must prove both your physical and political prowess, and the challenges you will face might turn out to be far more complicated than you imagined. A Living Forgotten Realms adventure set in Baldur’s Gate for characters levels 1-4.

horseboy
2008-09-22, 08:03 PM
I think some of it comes from TSR, in The Dragon Kings one of the things they said was that they wanted a characters leveling up to mean more, because there were fewer high level characters than, say Forgotten Realms where you could easily advance to 20th level and nobody notice. Well, that's not the exact quote, but it's really close. That and Selune being a bar maid in the AD&D comics.
On the whole Abertoril was the Tippyland of 1st/2nd. Where Greyhawk took "stock" fantasy land and overlaid game rules onto it, Forgotten Realms said "Wait, people who can do X are walking around. What would the ramifications of them doing X be?" In fact, they did have a Tippyland back in their back story.

By interesting cross-referencing, roughly 10% of Barsaive's population are adepts in Earthdawn. Everybody loves a decimal point.

hamlet
2008-09-23, 08:51 AM
I think some of it comes from TSR, in The Dragon Kings one of the things they said was that they wanted a characters leveling up to mean more, because there were fewer high level characters than, say Forgotten Realms where you could easily advance to 20th level and nobody notice. Well, that's not the exact quote, but it's really close. That and Selune being a bar maid in the AD&D comics.
On the whole Abertoril was the Tippyland of 1st/2nd. Where Greyhawk took "stock" fantasy land and overlaid game rules onto it, Forgotten Realms said "Wait, people who can do X are walking around. What would the ramifications of them doing X be?" In fact, they did have a Tippyland back in their back story.

By interesting cross-referencing, roughly 10% of Barsaive's population are adepts in Earthdawn. Everybody loves a decimal point.

1) Dragon Kings was a world specific book that didn't grate so much simply because it offered an in story and very plausible explanation as to why some of these extremely high level characters were running around. These are people who became so powerful that, inadvertaintly, they conquered pretty much the known world and are in the process of ascending to physical godhood (or as close as you can get on Athas).

2) Calling Forgotten Realms "Tippyland" is pretty good, and nicer than what I've been known to call it. For the most part, though there are some interesting bits, I consider the entire thing . . . childish.

Greyhawk is much preferrable as is Kingdoms of Kalamar. I find them to be much less "fantasy fulfillment" and more "grown up."

Triaxx
2008-09-23, 01:29 PM
Let's put it this way. Greyhawk is amazing for the first ten levels. Eberron for the next ten. FR has those high level characters and potential enemies so you're not spending all your time 'mook spanking'. Some one powerful enough to give you a challenge, but not optimized so they can still be defeated.

hamlet
2008-09-23, 02:23 PM
Let's put it this way. Greyhawk is amazing for the first ten levels. Eberron for the next ten. FR has those high level characters and potential enemies so you're not spending all your time 'mook spanking'. Some one powerful enough to give you a challenge, but not optimized so they can still be defeated.

Or, for those of us who play AD&D, Grehawk and Kalamar are perfectly suitable for all levels.

Beleriphon
2008-09-23, 02:39 PM
I think the big issue with FR is that from a design standpoint Ed Greenwood originally presented the setting as his homebrew game world, thus why some of the NPCs are such a high level, they were originally PCs. The trend unfortunately stuck just to make the new NPCs competitive with the old ones.

A setting like Eberron takes a different route. Everybody, with very few exceptions, is low level and probably has NPC classes. Even the king of Breland is only 8th level, and three of the levels are in aristocrat. The guy is described a highly skilled warrior, and he has three levels of an NPC class. After that the only characters that significantly higher level are bad buys, or incredibly old and intentional powerful characters (Erandis d'Vol for example).

From a design standpoint FR NPCs are supposed to represent what your character can become. While Eberron outright expects that anybody who reaches 20th level should be participating in world shaking events, in effect meaning the PCs.

Triaxx
2008-09-23, 05:19 PM
I tend to use FR as a retirement area for Epic characters. I think 60 is the minimum level I have.