Gender Indicators

[Smajie]

Hi. Following a debate that started recently on the Wizards of the Coast forums, I'd like to ask whether any of the users of these forums have found the gender indicators problematic. Were you ever harrased, treated insultingly, or anything like that, because people saw your indicated gender?

Thanks for your feedback. If you want to see the original debate, it is here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=410851).

[WishfulThinking]

Ive never had the problem on this or any other board. I suppose, however, that I can see it happening, as there are rude people in the world. There should always be a way to hide your gender, if theres not (I gave mine without a second thought so im not sure).

[Aemirai]

I've never had a problem with it either. Of course, the boards I frequent don't exactly lend themselves to that sort of thing. I can see where the WotC boards, being a larger, public entity, could attract that sort of person/problem.

[White Blade]

Nope never had a problem about gender, but I am thankful to god in heaven that there is not an age indicator then I would be all biased to hell. (I'm twelve, now think about an instant reaction to a twelve year old and then compare it to one made to someone who is eighteen.)

[HempRope]

Or someone who is thirty-five.

I can understnad the problem, but have never encountered it -- but I would expect most problems to be for women, anyway (seeing as how aggressive and idiotic our gender is, of course).


I'm not really sure which all parts of this are sarcastic, but... well, there is no but. If I sound less stupid and idiotic if the passage in question is sarcastic, assume it is.

[The_King_of_Durf]

I think that these boards are too good to let something like that happen, it might on other boards but the mods here are really really good, so I think they'd stop that problem before it even started.

Oh yes I agree with White Blade, thank GOD there isn't an age indicator

[HempRope]

Well... there is if anyone takes a gander at the profiles, but, such an occurrence is rare -- but I don't care that you're 13 anyway! (Little whelp)

[The_King_of_Durf]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, my secret is out! Just when I thought I had everyone fooled too

[White Blade]

Your only fifteen.

[RawBearNYC]

I used to play EverQuest quite a bit. After I was bored with my druid character, I started a ShadowKnight. I didn't really think about it, but thought that a female dark elf would be cool, so I made one.

I was running around one of the lower areas trying to level (as my druid had done, years before), when I experienced something my druid never did. I was getting harassed as a female character. I'd usually respond with "Dude, for all you know, I'm an old guy behind the keyboard." and that usually scared them away.

I didn't read the post at WotC, but I suspect that guys don't have as much of a problem with this as gals.

Here at Giant in the Playground, we definately have NO tolerance for that kind of mess, and if any of our members are feeling harassed, regardless of reason (age, gender, whatever), please feel free to notify a mod.

[Frojoe21]

You know what, during my time at the WOTC forums, not once did I find a trace of gender discrimination. The other problem is that sometimes people have a Counterstrike female doohickey

CED, for those of you who dont know, is basically members of the female sex often are treated a lot better than us men.

Well, there is my two cents. I gave you a dime so you owe me 8 cents. Haha, I can add and most of you can too.

[Smajie]

Well, thanks. It seems that this supports my argument. The discussion on WotC was locked due to spam, but I'll open a new one.

[Winged One]

Do you realize that the gender indicator can be turned off?

It doesn't really matter here, we're fairly mature compared to some boards.

[The_King_of_Durf]

Yes, everyone does, probably because it starts that way. That's not even what this threads purpose was in the first place

[Arian]

Do you realize that the gender indicator can be turned off?

So can the age indicator, for that matter. You won't find out my age by reading my profile.

Reading my posts, I admit, is another matter - I've acknowledged it in several places. :)

[Chase]

I think its better to find out things about people by actually talking to them, instead of just looking at their profiles. I know a number of forums that are guilty of "You are just 13 what do you know!" etc. Good to see none of that here though.

[bingo_bob]

Yeah, I've had bad experiences with age indicators in my past too. Like White Blade, I'm only 12, and instead of saying "What do you know?" they just ignored me completely. You can see why I no longer post there.

[Wukei]

I never state "what do you know" to the 12-13 year olds around here, I am..however..surprised that someone that young role plays. (I've heard of five year olds role playing, though.) I'd never even HEARD of DnD til the movie came out, and I didn't start role playing until I was around 18-19 (first VtM and a year later, DnD)

[The_King_of_Durf]

I'm a 13 year old rp-er and DM, I learned how to play when I was like, 3 or 4, because my dad taught me. But I changed my age thing in my profiler to say thaty I'm 4

[White Blade]

My dad had played DnD but I had to figure out that it existed in a half-price book store when I was eight.

[Aeek]

My dad had played DnD but I had to figure out that it existed in a half-price book store when I was eight.

the dynamics of playing with a parent as DM could be seriously "interesting".

BOT: I'd thought about not using the gender indicator, but then my choice of avatar...

If it was searchable, that would be trouble.

[Estrogen]

Hi everyone ;D

I first heard of DND when my parents told me that my cousin's parents disowned her because she was practising evil rituals and worshiping satan. I asked what she was doing, and they told me about DnD. (she wasn't satanist at all. in fact, she was still christian.)

Needless to say, the stance that the church has taken against our harmless passtime is completely obsurd.

As per the gender situation, I'm in quite the spot most places I go. I'm a pre-op male to female transsexual. I'm 20 years old, and I'm far too honest for my own good. It's a sensative subject because most people don't know anything about it; and if they have, it's usually a bad example. A lot of people think of transsexuals as weird big hairy men who walk around wearing dresses. I'm not a crossdresser, I don't "get off" on dressing in women's clothing, it just comes natural to me (and I dress quite androgenously). I've known I was born the wrong sex since I was 3 years old, and it's been a big issue my whole life.

Most of the time, when I tell people this, they are open minded and willing to get to know me before harrassing me. Many many people though, especially in the faceles environment of the internet, seem to find great pleasure in calling me names.

(BTW, my forum name "estrogen" is a nickname I seem to have developed amongst my frinds. just fyi, so u don't think i'm TOO weird. Although weird is generally a good way to describe me :p)

I always identify my gender as female because that's what it is. There is a difference between gender and sex. My sex is just something that happens to be in transition.

Anyway, this is my first post (kinda embarrasing lol). I've read around a bit and it seems like a nice community, so...

*waves, smiles* :)

[Brianna_Sollandry]

I have been harrassed and insulted, but there's no way of knowing if it was because of my gender indicator. It's always the same people, but maybe they're just offended at me because of ... some reason.

Regarding age, I'm probably as old as any two (average) posters on the board, so I've certainly not been accused of "not knowing anything" because of my age - although the previously mentioned harrassers have rudely doubted I was as old as I claimed. You can't win. :)

[Wukei]

It's not your sex that's the problem. Plenty of people know my gender, and they're not offensive/offended in the least. But then, I tend to act like the opposite sex (it took everyone about a month or more to catch on to what I was.)

Really, if people are going to be childish about age/gender, you should just ignore them. Don't worry about avoiding telling everyone your gender, unless it's just fun for you. ;)

[sktarq]

it took everyone about a month or more to catch on to what I was.
and many still don't ;)

[Wukei]

Yea, except Banjulhu put me on that stupid "women gamers on OotS forum" thing...I don't think anyone but the person themselves should give away what gender they are....what if I'm trying to hide it for a reason?

[Plorpmeister]

Why would you want to hide it though? I doubt many, if any at all, people care if you're male or female.

I am actually a bit surprised at how young some people are on this board. I play some browser games and work with a 12 year old there, that has absolutely repulsive grammar. Kudos to you for being readable.

[Wukei]

I hope you're not talking to me. I'm 22. If I weren't readable, I'd be ashamed. But I try to avoid cursing, even on boards where it's allowed.

You don't know who's looking.

But I've been rather fond of keeping my gender quiet because I had an internet stalker a few years back. Whenever I faked being male, he didn't seem to realize it was me until someone let it go that I was indeed female. Then my personality gave away the rest.

[Plorpmeister]

At first I was talking to you, but I moved and talk more spcifically about how people about 10 years younger than us (I am also 22) here talk with better grammar than I see on other places on the 'net.

[geek_2049]

Hi everyone ;D

I first heard of DND when my parents told me that my cousin's parents disowned her because she was practising evil rituals and worshiping satan. I asked what she was doing, and they told me about DnD. (she wasn't satanist at all. in fact, she was still christian.)

Needless to say, the stance that the church has taken against our harmless passtime is completely obsurd.

As per the gender situation, I'm in quite the spot most places I go. I'm a pre-op male to female transsexual. I'm 20 years old, and I'm far too honest for my own good. It's a sensative subject because most people don't know anything about it; and if they have, it's usually a bad example. A lot of people think of transsexuals as weird big hairy men who walk around wearing dresses. I'm not a crossdresser, I don't "get off" on dressing in women's clothing, it just comes natural to me (and I dress quite androgenously). I've known I was born the wrong sex since I was 3 years old, and it's been a big issue my whole life.

Most of the time, when I tell people this, they are open minded and willing to get to know me before harrassing me. Many many people though, especially in the faceles environment of the internet, seem to find great pleasure in calling me names.

(BTW, my forum name "estrogen" is a nickname I seem to have developed amongst my frinds. just fyi, so u don't think i'm TOO weird. Although weird is generally a good way to describe me :p)

I always identify my gender as female because that's what it is. There is a difference between gender and sex. My sex is just something that happens to be in transition.

Anyway, this is my first post (kinda embarrasing lol). I've read around a bit and it seems like a nice community, so...

*waves, smiles* :)


Way to pour your heart out to a bunch of complete strangers. Kudos to you for finding who you are in life.

To Wukei: I figured out you were a girl real quick, I forget how though. Did you used to have the girl symbol thing? Why did you change your avatar, I liked the Life for Death one. I feel for ya on the stalker thing though. I have this girl that keeps coming by my apartment. She even let herself in a few times, though I don't know how. You see she's a 6 month old kitten. I keep telling her that it will not work. I am weak, I just might have to adopt her. Does this make me shallow? I have this bad tendency towards levity, many apologies. I have found the best way to get rid of crazies is to act more crazy than they are.

EDIT: When I say the kitten "stalks me", I mean she hides behind a corner and runs up and puts a paw on me. Okay, no more puns. The kitten is super jealous though. I had a friend that is female and human come over and the kitten totally hissed and scratched her.

[White Blade]

At first I was talking to you, but I moved and talk more spcifically about how people about 10 years younger than us (I am also 22) here talk with better grammar than I see on other places on the 'net.
Yeah, but that's just because if I came here and talked with bad grammar I would get brow beaten to death... which I was once if a I remember correctly... stupid clerics...

[Plorpmeister]

I think we also have higher standards here than a lot of other places on the internet. Which may very well be a reason we don't have any problems with discrimination, at least as far as this thread shows.

I am willing to hypothesisize that people who are willing to take the time to write intelligently are more likely to realize how stupid discrimination against age, gender, religion, race, height, weight, spelling, etc really is.

[Adghar]

spelling,

But... but... it's better to have proper spelling, is it not? If it weren't for people who discriminate against improper spelling, the internet would be (more) full of people tokin like dis !!!11

[Plorpmeister]

But... but... it's better to have proper spelling, is it not? If it weren't for people who discriminate against improper spelling, the internet would be (more) full of people tokin like dis !!!11

From my experience a lot of people do talk like that on the internet.

I meant more of the odd misspelled word anyway. If your post is full of glaring typos, people will notice, and possibly comment. If you make a mistake or two and people get on your case about that, that's a bit much. I've seen it done though.

[RawBearNYC]

I read an article a while back. It suggested something I've taken to heart.

Internet based communication (chat, e-mail, message boards) is supposed to be fast. Not necessarily with accurate grammar or spelling. If the point can be understood, then the job is done.

I know a number of people that I feel are very intelligent, but know very little about grammar and spelling. My father, whose opinion I've learned to trust doesn't like to write, because he's self conscious. I try to tell him that I'm more interested in what he has to say than how he says it.

Unfortunately, too many people let such things affect the credibility they give the author. I've always felt this was a shame. Tho, it's hard to do. I know many people who write well and whose opinions I couldn't care less about.

I humbly ask my fellow internet citizens to cut people a break when it comes to spelling and grammer and try to hear the golden nugget of a point underneath, then judge the author.

(even if, everytime I read the words "would of", "could of" or "should of" a part of me dies inside, just a little)

[Plorpmeister]

Wow I like this I got a mod a bit off topic.

I was just list anything that I could think of when I made that list of things that people could concievably discriminate about. Some are experience, some are common things, and others I just pulled out of nowhere.

[Wukei]

I think there are times when correcting spelling and grammar is okay.

"Your going to the market today?" is an obvious grammatical error. (You don't know how hard it was for me to type that incorrectly.) "Your" should be "you're." And there is no issue with correcting it. The same thing with the "would of, could of, should of" scenario. People might get mad and not listen, but I have the feeling that it is better to inform them of the proper grammatical context of the word they've typed. After all, you can't get by in life without spelling correctly.

As for actual spelling problems. Saying something like "I just got hmoe" is an obvious mistype. I don't think people should get onto others for this. If it's worth correcting, and the person that typed it notices it, they'll probably correct it.

Also, one should realize when English is not a person's first language. I have a friend that I am role playing in a PbP with currently. He doesn't spell everything correctly, or he has a grammatical flux...but that's because English is not his first language. I would not dare to inform him of every single mishap, due to the number of them, and his posts are still legible. It is amazing that he has learned a whole other language, and props should go to him.

Now, back on topic, gender indicators. I seriously wonder what's wrong with people that do the whole a/s/l thing. Some are actually stalkers. If they find that you're an eleven year old boy from Memphis, TN, that's not going to be a problem...there are a ton of boys from Memphis for them to stalk. But what if you give a picture of yourself and you're from that little town in Texas that only has 2,349 people in it? It would be quite easy for a perverted stalker to hunt you down. That is why gender indication is an option on these boards.

Also, some of us don't feel comfortable with disclosing information about our gender for several reasons. I was on a board where every time I stated something the other members would state "don't listen to her, she's just a woman." That is, they said that until they found out the administrator was my fiancee. Then they actually listened and found out I had something decent to say. They even liked my sense of humour. So once you get past the gender barrier, no, it's not a problem. But until you get past the gender barrier, there might be a problem. I've learned just not to indicate my gender because of this problem.

[Cougaar]

After years of having to prove that I'm female.. I'm actually glad to find forums with gender indicators. But I can imagine the trouble people (mainly females) might have and think that the way it is handled here (making it an option to openly indicate what gender you are) a sensible way of taking care of it.

As for being biased towards people of certain ages - yes, I'm biased.. I prefer interacting with people roughly half my age (I'm 30) as my experiance so far has proved that although many youngsters are prone to AOLisms and other sometimes annoying posting behaviour - they aren't as malignant as some(!) of those so-called "grown-ups" I've met on the 'net.

Concerning typing/grammatical errors - I rarely go about correcting people. Hey, I'm far from being perfect myself.
On a forum where I'm a mod, if something is completely unreadable, I might send a PM politely and kindly informing the person that the way they post will refelct on how people see them. Usually with a link to Onlinenetiquette's courtesy #3 (I'll provide a link to those interested if that is allowed) which includes following quote:


"Poor writing is equivalent to someone speaking with spinach stuck between their teeth. Listeners and readers concentrate on the spinach; not what is being said."

[Plorpmeister]

Also, one should realize when English is not a person's first language. I have a friend that I am role playing in a PbP with currently. He doesn't spell everything correctly, or he has a grammatical flux...but that's because English is not his first language. I would not dare to inform him of every single mishap, due to the number of them, and his posts are still legible. It is amazing that he has learned a whole other language, and props should go to him.

Now, back on topic, gender indicators. I seriously wonder what's wrong with people that do the whole a/s/l thing. Some are actually stalkers. If they find that you're an eleven year old boy from Memphis, TN, that's not going to be a problem...there are a ton of boys from Memphis for them to stalk. But what if you give a picture of yourself and you're from that little town in Texas that only has 2,349 people in it? It would be quite easy for a perverted stalker to hunt you down. That is why gender indication is an option on these boards.

Also, some of us don't feel comfortable with disclosing information about our gender for several reasons. I was on a board where every time I stated something the other members would state "don't listen to her, she's just a woman." That is, they said that until they found out the administrator was my fiancee. Then they actually listened and found out I had something decent to say. They even liked my sense of humour. So once you get past the gender barrier, no, it's not a problem. But until you get past the gender barrier, there might be a problem. I've learned just not to indicate my gender because of this problem.
Most of the non-native English speakers will readily admit that, and I am much more forgiving about them making grammatical and spelling errors.

I haven't seen the a/s/l thing on any of the message boards I'm on, that's more of a chat room thing. There's a problem with your logic on the 11 year old example though, technically children under the age of 13 aren't supposed to be on the internet without adult supervision. Then again many parents are lazy and will let their 11 year old do whatever they want at the computer, but that's a whole new issue. Generally the most I'll say about where I live is California, if really pressed I'll tell them the Bay Area. That's me though and I'm cautious.

And as I said before I don't think gender is that big of an issue here at The Giant's site. At other message boards, and the internet in general, there are plenty of bigotted people. I like it here, it feels safe and calm.

[Ryver]

Under most circumstances, such as in preplanned E-mails, posts made to message boards, and leisurely instant messaging... I find few reasons not to use correct spelling and grammar if you're capable.

People who don't normally speak English, or aren't the best at writing it... fine by me. I'm an understanding guy. but teh ppl who try hard 2 type liek tihs (rofllll) aer teh lazyest ppl on the planet

Why on Earth would someone type "r" instead of "are"? Especially someplace like on a message board - where time is not an issue - why wouldn't you take an extra second (or less if you're a good typist) to spell out the full word? There's a time and a place for brevity, IMO.

So far as gender goes... it's usually optional, and you can always lie. That's the beauty of the internet.

I'm close to a person who refused to divulge their gender. It was a quirk, an "experiment", to see how they'd be treated, and what gender they'd be assumed to be. After more than three years, I finally found out, but by that time, it'd become unimportant. They tought me many a good lesson about life; that was one of them.

Neither sex, gender, sexual orientation, race, nor age should be used to assess the validity of someone's thoughts or feelings. Ever. Online or off.

On a side note, age can be indicative of maturity. As I've come to discover, this is not always the case. In the circles I frequent, it's rarely the case; maturity seems travel in packs. Either way, when it comes to the internet, it's the maturity that we can see, and that's what we have to use as a judge of character, not the date of birth in the profile - which may or may not be the correct one anyway.

[Nidae]

Wow. I'm... just.... wow.

I never thought this would be an issue, anywhere. I honestly would never have thought a tiny little symbol could cause such a big stink.

Being female myself, I enjoy the few times when a guy says something postive about my ranks in Knowledge(D&D). :)

And Wukei, I feel you. I had a stalker IRL. Then he followed me online. So I really had no where I felt safe. After a few months and a move, life is a lot better. I hope you're doing well. *thumbs up*


Nidae Uladvar Tormtor

[Zherog]

I humbly ask my fellow internet citizens to cut people a break when it comes to spelling and grammer and try to hear the golden nugget of a point underneath, then judge the author.

You spelled 'grammar' wrong. :P :P :P :P :P

As a rule of thumb, I agree with you, RB. As long as I can tell what you are trying to say, I'm generally OK with it. Once in a while I'll comment, but just about always in a joking manner (like above, for example).

[ghostrunner]

As an English major and tutor, I find myself absentmindedly scouring everything I read for accuracy (including my own post, in which I make frequent mistakes...). That being said, I almost never point errors out to people for a couple reasons, most of which have already been listed. One of the primary reasons is tact. No one impresses another by correcting minor and inconsequential mistakes. At best, it's annoying as hell. And, as RawBear pointed out, determining a person's credibilty based on his or her grammar skills is a logical fallacy. That's not to say that people don't say lots of stupid crap that doesn't deserve to be tolerated, but one must not confuse the message with the delivery.

Unless, of course, the person is typing in 1337. In that case, the person deserves to be disparaged based on their delivery alone.
;D

[The_Beast_Rabban]

I have to be honest and say that the reasons I like these boards so much is

1) The posts have a very high standard of spelling and grammar

2) The posts are usually(not the silly games obviously) very informative and well thought out.

Kudos to you all and keep up the high standards.

As for gender I do not even look for it. I judge each post on it's own merits/failings as should we all.

[Tzor]

About spelling and grammar: I have often found it difficult if not impossible to properly proofread a posting from a little tiny windows edit box. Mistakes happen and things are overlooked. Even when you proofread you often will miss mistakes you make. This is why you have someone else proofread your works.

I like gender indicators, but I don't really pay attention to them all that often. That's the ideal situation, they are there if you need them but they are not so obvious as to overshadow the posting. Not all boards can handle them, but this one definitely can and in a very mature manner.

[Annarrkkii]

Heh. I like to keep my age in the dark. Gender, not so much, as it would be obvious after a short while. I'm a devil's advocate, and quite belligerent toward people whp push my buttons. Not to say that I don't know women like that, just that I generally associate that kind of thing to be a male trait.

As for spelling and grammar, I would like to think that I have good syntax. I do often make mistakes, as a hunt and peck typer, though I have managed to limit the hunt part, I peck 90 GWAM, not as fast as many good touch typers, but fast enough for me. I can't see typos as I make them, so I have to recheck my posts. I have a tendency to annoyingly capitalize the first to letters of words, when only the first one should be. I just hold the shift down too long.

Unfortunately, I have a tendency to really, really not like bad syntax. 75% of my first impression of a poster is based on their syntax and grammar. I am a terrible nitpick, and I bang my head with something when I come across truly terrible syntax (which happens rarely, I assure you). When I get around to DMing a game, I am definitely gonna' accept submissions based at least somewhat on the player's syntax. Also, typos that are horrendously obvious, like messed up code, that would be easily caught and edited, but aren't, just irk me to no end.

Just my 2 cp.

[Lightman]

Nope never had a problem about gender, but I am thankful to god in heaven that there is not an age indicator then I would be all biased to hell. (I'm twelve, now think about an instant reaction to a twelve year old and then compare it to one made to someone who is eighteen.)
I definatly agree with this

[Buzzfloyd]

I've never had trouble specifically because of a gender indicator. However, I was a member of a Discworld PbP RP site where I had a 'seamstress' character (among many others); and some members were unfortunately unable to distinguish between player and character. Fortunately, we had some good mods who set the matter straight very quickly. I did get a wannabe cyberstalker out of that site though, but he wasn't very good at the whole stalking thing (Wisdom of 3?), so I was able to lose him with ease.

Age has never been an issue for me, luckily. The internet is a great equaliser in that respect.

And as for language... My 'home' messageboard is strict about using good English. That is, we ban l33tspeak, chatspeak and textspeak, and ask that people do their best to maintain a high standard of English. Since that is a given, we tend to overlook mistakes so long as the meaning comes through; we have a couple of very dyslexic members and a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. It would be very uncharitable to be constantly picking on their mistakes. We only ask that everyone tries.

[kuja.girl]

It can be argued that they are both good and bad...
Sometimes I don't care, othertimes, it's good to know (ie. when ur being hit on or harassed).
Personaly, I like them. It makes me remember that there is a real person underneath the avatar.

But as women are a minority in roleplaying/videogames, it can lead to problems. I walked into a Computer Gaming Cafe (where a whole bunch of PC's are set up to play each other) and was hit on by one of the employees in under 3 mins...kinda makes you wonder.

I remind people who may doubt girl gamer's skills:
I reguarly "own" boys (and men) while playing Halo 2.
;)
and I'm glad I haven't encountered anything sexist on this site yet! Go team!