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Human Paragon 3
2008-09-22, 04:39 PM
There was a thread a while back about a gestalt rogue/wizard sabateur. The relevent post is spoilered below.


So, we may be playing a very small party (3 players) and thus there are roles that need to be filled; there's a dread necro/warlock who is under a geas to behave himself (very concept driven, adds some minions to the fray and blasts stuff) and his guardian, a paladin (grey guard at level 6, is playing like a grey guard from the start)/favoured soul who is in charge of him - so we have some melee force and some healing, with a few neat tricks thrown in. That leaves a rogue-type and a general arcanist really, so I'm filling those roles.

We're using the 8,10,12,14,16,18 spread, I got this weird idea when flipping through books of playing a heavily armoured dwarven rogue/runesmith.

My thought was: give up sneak attack for fighter feat advancement (Unearthed Arcana variant rogue), qualify for Dread commando (gets to reduce armour penalty by up to 4 at 4th level), take heavy armour optimization, and be able to run around in dwarven plate with no penalty and no arcane failure rate. I'll throw an exotic weapon proficiency at the Greathammer, which he uses for sabotage. He won't be very sneaky at low levels, but the image of a dwarf "rogue" with 18 strength, opening locks with his greathammer is amusing.

I need 13 Dex to get the dodge/mobility for Dread Commando (which also gets some sudden strike), so I figure that's the 12, with the 4th level attribute boost going into Dex. 18 Str, 12 Dex, 16 (14+2) Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 8 (10-2) Cha.

Rogue side: UA variant rogue with dwarven level substitutions, give up a feat instead of a d6 of sneak attack for the 5th level substitution?), dread commando at 8th (when you hit +5 BAB)

Wizard side: 1 level of fighter (since you are already using fighter feat progression on the other side, take the UA variant fighter that sacrifices feats for sneak attack progression? Weird...), followed by wizard 1-4, Runesmith 1-2, more wizard while you take dread commando levels.

So, I'm looking for interesting feats/combat style for the remaining piles of feats. I'm thinking of going with improved sunder (+4 for two handed weapon, +4 for Improved Sunder, +2 for Greathammer, extra damage vs. objects from rapid demolitionist).


My question is: is there anyway to un-gestalt this? That is to say, how would you build this character with a single progression?

Key elements to hit are, I believe:

Good Skill Points
Full Armored skill use/magic use
Destroying stuff via smashing/disabling/or through magical means
A sunder-focused combat strategy

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-23, 09:02 AM
bump from yesterday. It strikes me that you can make the sabateur rogue fairly easily, or make an armored wizard fairly easily, but combining the two is the tough part. Needs more consideration.

Lord Denyuar
2008-09-23, 09:09 AM
If you like various types of armor and being a dwarf, look into the equipment area of races of the stone. There is some fun armor there.

Epinephrine
2008-09-23, 09:41 AM
Runesmith dip is one way to get armoured casting; another would be to go with a class like Warmage, that already has armoured casting and pick up the feat Battle Caster, if you want really heavy armour. Or Divine casting instead - it's a lot easier to get casting in armour as a divine caster.

I'll mention the Fighter sneak attack variant as a way to get both Heavy Armour proficiency and some sneak attack toward Arcane Trickster: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter

The Dwarven Rogue substitution levels might be useful, as mentioned in the other thread - they offer bonus damage versus objects/constructs, making sundering easier (Dragon magazine #338) - you may thus want to grab 3 levels of rogue total, to get Expert Demolitionist's +2d6 damage vs objects and +2 to Craft, Disable Device and Knowledge Architecture/Engineering to demolish/tunnel through/etc. (if you DM allows the substitution levels)

Warmage: gets armoured casting. Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (or Rogue2/Fighter1 - you need +2d6 sneak atack - my DM will say that the fighter and rogue sneak attack progressions are the same, and thus will require 3 total levels) gets you your +2d6 sneak attack and heavy armour proficiency. Take Battle Caster to boost your armoured casting, use Warmage and Arcane Trickster to progress a decent PrC for casting and sneaking.

Wizard: Still use Rogue1/variant fighter1 for the sneak attack/armour proficiency, take wizard 3, Runesmith 1, then arcane trickster 10? (this looks pretty solid, really)

Shadowbane Stalker: Divine caster/Rogue mix, hence able to do armoured casting. Progresses casting and rogue-type abilities. Choose appropriate domains to get some neat spells (Destruction, to get Shatter?). The fluff is about lawful good yadda yadda, but fluff can be altered to suit campaigns.

For most of these you still have the issue of sneaking in heavy armour - use Mithril armour, to reduce the penalties, feel free to take Heavy Armour Optimization (req. +4 BAB, Races of Stone) and Greater Heavy Armour Optimization (req. +8 BAB, RoS) - they'll grant +2AC and reduce armour check penalties by 3. Mithril Full Plate with both Heavy Armour Optimizations would provide +10 AC with up to a +3 Dex bonus, while offering only a -1 Armour Check penalty - you can probably go swimming in it!

If you went Wizard you get the Int as a casting stat that you want for skill monkey stuff - Arcane Trickster only gets 4 skill points per level, but you're progressing your casting as well as rogue abilities.

Dwarven Rogue 3/Wizard 1/Fighter 1/Runesmith 5/Arcane Trickster 10 or some such isn't too bad. You get +2d6 damage versus objects, +2d6 of sneak attack from rogue (qualifying for Arcane Trickster), Heavy armour proficiency and Heavy Armour Optimization from fighter (by waiting till 5th level you can use the bonus feat this way), another 5d6 sneak attack damage (total +7d6), 16 levels of spellcasting and pretty solid skills.

If the DM allows it, Dwarven Rogue 1/Variant Fighter 1 to get +2d6 sneak attack and the heavy armour proficiency can save you levels and allow you up to 18 levels of spellcasting (3 Wiz, 5 Rune, 10 AT?)

Telonius
2008-09-23, 11:00 AM
A straight-out-of-the-can Artificer might work for what this is trying to do. Mithral Fullplate, Open Lock as a class skill, Trapfinding, UMD to create items that emulate ... well, anything.

Curiously, Disable Device is absent from the Artificer's class skill list. That could put a crimp in the build, but you can easily make a widget of Disable Device if you really need to.

Keld Denar
2008-09-23, 04:10 PM
Maybe something like

SA Fighter1
Wizard1
Wizard2
Wizard3
Wizard4
Unseen Seer1
Unseen Seer2
Unseen Seer3
Unseen Seer4
Runesmith 1
....build as desired.

I'm pretty sure you'll qualify for Runesmith by that point, and I THINK you can squeeze out the skill points you need for USS by that point with a decent int score. Doesn't have trap finding, but could grab Find Traps off the cleric list using USS' Divination spell.

Otherwise, do factotums get medium armor proficiency? Maybe a level of Factotum to start and get most of the skills filled, then Wizard and taking feat Heavy Armor Proficency. If that is the case, you could do:

Factotum 1 Heavy Armor Proficiency
Wizard 1 Improved Inititive (Fighter bonus feat ACF, UA)
Wizard 2 Dodge
Wizard 3
Wizard 4
Wizard 5 Spont Divination(CChamp ACF), Mobility
Dread Commando 1
Dread Commando 2
Dread Commando 3 Heavy Armor Optimization
Runecaster1
Dread Commando 4
Dread Commando 5 XXX feat
Arcane Trickster 8

Or something like that...Should probably sit down and look at prereqs and whatnot to verify that the build is legal, but unfortunately, my books are all about 2500 miles away...TT

Ends up with 14 Caster Levels for level 7 spells, 3d6 sudden strike, 4d6 sneak attack, 0% ACS and -0 ACP in Mithril Full Plate, can run while moving silently, and +5 inititive bonus to the whole party. Not too shabby...

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-23, 04:26 PM
Hmm, I like it. Not sure if Factotum does get the medium armor prof or not, but it's neat. I think you'd actually need Heavy Armor Opt at level 6 and greater heavy armor optimization at 9, though. Also, until you actually get runesmith, you're S.O.L. for armored casting. You may be able to qualify it earlier... right at level 6.

Keld Denar
2008-09-23, 04:53 PM
Hmm, I like it. Not sure if Factotum does get the medium armor prof or not, but it's neat. I think you'd actually need Heavy Armor Opt at level 6 and greater heavy armor optimization at 9, though. Also, until you actually get runesmith, you're S.O.L. for armored casting. You may be able to qualify it earlier... right at level 6.

Like I said, AFB, so I can't look up the details on Factotum or Runesmith to tell you the reqs, maybe some kind soul will post them for us?

Alternately in the 2nd build, you could swap out 2 levels of Dread Commando for the last 2 levels of Arcane Trickster to get CL 16 for 8th level spells, or you could swap out ALL of the AT levels for USS for CL14, but with all the neato USS abilities, depending on your preference. Again, AFB, and I don't remember which abilities DCs get at each level to determine where, if at all, the best jump out point would be. Need at least 3 to qualify for AT, and its only a 5 level class, so there can't be more than 5...

ocato
2008-09-23, 05:07 PM
Curiously, Disable Device is absent from the Artificer's class skill list. That could put a crimp in the build, but you can easily make a widget of Disable Device if you really need to.

Actually, according to the EbCS, it's on their list. I think this might be a good idea all around.

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 11:16 AM
Which Faerun book were Runecasters in again? I can't seem to locate them in the ones I have. Maybe it would be easier if I just asked for the prereqs list...

Telonius
2008-09-24, 11:18 AM
Actually, according to the EbCS, it's on their list. I think this might be a good idea all around.

That's what I get for being AFB and trusting the keeper of crystals. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 11:32 AM
That's what I get for being AFB and trusting the keeper of crystals. :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, here on the north slope of Alaska, all internet is controlled, and the great controller of the internets keeps me from the keeper of the crystals, even during non-working hours....

*grumble tyranny grumble grumble*

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-24, 11:48 AM
Runesmith is in Races of Stone. The requirements are, I believe, Race: Dwarfl, Craft: Stonework 8 ranks, heavy armor prof, and arcane caster level 1.

Epinephrine
2008-09-24, 11:52 AM
Like I said, AFB, so I can't look up the details on Factotum or Runesmith to tell you the reqs, maybe some kind soul will post them for us?


Can't help with Factotum.
Runesmith requires being a Dwarf, Concentration 5 ranks, Craft (Stoneworking) 8 ranks, Armour Proficiency (Heavy), Scribe Scroll, and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells. They get their rune magic at 1st level, so a single level dip is ok, though Share Runes at 3rd and Permanent Rune at 5th aren't bad abilities.