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Breaw
2008-09-22, 04:45 PM
I'm going to be playing in a thievery campaign in the next few weeks and I am going to be the party face/diplomat type. It seems to me that it could be very worth my while to fool magic lie detection. Naturally an absurd will save is a good start, but what classes/PRs out there can help me in sidestepping this hurdle?

And yes, this question was inspired by OOTS #594.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

-B

Kurald Galain
2008-09-22, 04:55 PM
Apparently there's at least one aristocrat-friendly prestige class that does that... :smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2008-09-22, 04:57 PM
Tell the truth.

Use rhetorical devices, omissions, leading statements, insinuations, aphorisms, etc, etc, etc..... The best lies are the ones we believe without being told.

Prometheus
2008-09-22, 05:09 PM
Usually, it depends on what the spell you are expecting.
-Zone of Truth is the most logical one. However, it requires that you attempt to answer questions. This depends on whether you are faced against an "innocent until proven guilty" court or a "guilty until proven innocent court". If you pass the Will save, however, people will be more likely to accept whatever you say as the truth. The spell says speak, so some DMs to infer that writing, telepathy, sign language, and audible illusions are all valid forms of communication that would be omitted from this rule. To take use of it, however, you would have to a) know it while the spellcaster does not b) feign muteness and/or c) disguise one form of communication as the other.
-Detect Thoughts is a common way of telling what someone is thinking, but there are several ways to get around that, the most obvious of which is a Will save.
-Detect Good/Evil/Law/Chaos is thwarted by Undetectable Alignment

I would try to get Slippery Mind as soon as possible (if you were going to build around it).

Curmudgeon
2008-09-22, 05:16 PM
Fight magic with magic. Cast a bunch of Magic Mouth spells where they can be heard, not seen, with false answers to the questions likely to be asked of you. You "can’t speak any deliberate and intentional lies" -- but you can lip-synch all the lies you can pre-record. :smallcool:

streakster
2008-09-22, 05:25 PM
Read any Robert Jordan? Your goal is to be as Aes Sedai like as possible.

"Did you steal those jewels?"
"No. (My partners stole them. I assisted.)"

"Did you kill him?"
"No. (I stabbed him. He died of bleeding.)"

"What is your true objective?"
"We just want to have some fun! (Robbing you!)"

Jack_Simth
2008-09-22, 06:40 PM
I'm going to be playing in a thievery campaign in the next few weeks and I am going to be the party face/diplomat type. It seems to me that it could be very worth my while to fool magic lie detection. Naturally an absurd will save is a good start, but what classes/PRs out there can help me in sidestepping this hurdle?

And yes, this question was inspired by OOTS #594.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

-B
A Ring of Mind Shielding will will halt anything short of Zone of Truth (which isn't covered, curiously).

The (Illithid) Slayer PrC has Cerebral Immunity as an 8th level power - Mind Blank will stop pretty much anything.

monty
2008-09-22, 06:40 PM
Glibness forces a caster level check to detect your lies and/or make you tell the truth.

Glimbur
2008-09-22, 06:41 PM
I am disappointed in my fellow posters. Not one of you suggested a Bard. Bards are Cha based and have all sorts of face skills in class, like Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive. They also get Glibness, which lets you have a chance against spells like Zone of Truth. Granted, you need to pre-buff and Detect Magic would ruin the fun, but it's still nice to have.

Edit: of course someone mentioned Glibness as I typed this.

monty
2008-09-22, 06:52 PM
Edit: of course someone mentioned Glibness as I typed this.

Glad I could help.:smallbiggrin:

Hawriel
2008-09-22, 06:54 PM
As mentioned befor. Do it the Ais Sedi way or as I call it, Obi-Wans point of view.

Breaw
2008-09-22, 07:27 PM
Between the research I've done and your suggestions this is my current conclusion: There doesn't seem to be any options that provide immunity to lie detection that are a small enough investment for my purposes.

I will be playing in a reasonably low magic setting, and would likely only need such an ability in the case that I messed up a mission against a particularly powerful mark, one rich enough to afford a wizard (there are all of 8ish wizards above level 10 in the setting). As such having a few outs for specific circumstances will likely be what I go for.

I will have access to some 'Magician' spells (illusion and divination), so spells like Misdirection will go a long way to helping me out in this regard. I may try to keep an eye out of an item that can help me out as well, but I may instead simply focus on strategies for not getting caught in the first place.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

-B

Wraith
2008-09-22, 08:31 PM
To be honest, the best way to get around lie detection is just to think very hard about your answer and make sure it's TECHNICALLY true, just like streakster said. You can usually get away with it if you have a casual demeanor and your GM is not the type to insist on a specific Yes or No answer.

"What is your name?"
"I am called <Insert the Orcish word for 'Human' or 'Elf' or 'Hey, You!' Here>" (And hope the person you're talking to doesn't speak Orcish. Substitute with the most obscure language you can find for best effect)

"Did you kill the merchant?"
"His blood is not on my hands." (Wear gloves, or simply make sure you stab him instead of punching him)

"Where did you steal those jewels from?"
"I am highly insulted that you would accuse me of petty theft!" (Could be true, whether they are accurate or not)

The possibilities are endless. A perfectly free technique, with the possible exception of a decent Bluff skill and - if you really wanted to justify it - a few otherwise unnecessary point in your INT to give the impression of a quick witted scoundrel.

Jack_Simth
2008-09-22, 08:42 PM
To be honest, the best way to get around lie detection is just to think very hard about your answer and make sure it's TECHNICALLY true, just like streakster said. You can usually get away with it if you have a casual demeanor and your GM is not the type to insist on a specific Yes or No answer.

Do note:
Any modern lawyer or investigator worth his salt knows this method, and would dismantle it in court.

The Glyphstone
2008-09-22, 08:57 PM
Do note:
Any modern lawyer or investigator worth his salt knows this method, and would dismantle it in court.

Thus - stay out of Cliffport?:smallcool:

the only PrC ability I know is Spymaster 7, and that's probably out of reach (min level 12).

Wraith
2008-09-22, 09:25 PM
Yes, Cliffport being the natural subversion :smalltongue:
Similarly, I rely on there being relatively few modern lawyers in a fantasy/medieval setting, hence the caution about having a pedantic GM. :smallbiggrin:

On a side-note, this method is also a lot of fun! You can make up almost any crazy stuff and, provided it's phrased in the right way, it still applies and won't register as a 'lie'.
Having other Player Characters choose Key Words before the conversation, and them owing you a gold piece if you can manage to use that Word without it detecting as a lie, is a fun little game-within-a-game if you're so inclined.

Emperor Tippy
2008-09-22, 11:20 PM
Do note:
Any modern lawyer or investigator worth his salt knows this method, and would dismantle it in court.

It depends on how much you practice, how good an actor you are, and what you are being accused of.

Riffington
2008-09-23, 12:39 AM
Bards are a superb choice - and glibness an excellent spell.
I might also suggest Modify Memory. If you remember it differently, then you aren't lying at all :)

Of course, a practiced investigator will not only require direct answers
but also would insist on removing all magics from the person to be interrogated.
Now, lawyerly misdirections are out of place in any medieval setting where trials are done by combat, but are normal in any setting where Zones of Truth are used/abused. Indeed, if people must deal with this spell, they'd be *better* at such misdirections and their avoidance than a modern lawyer.

Unless, of course, the Inquisitor requires answers in Celestial. That language does not contain the words necessary for misdirection.

Breaw
2008-09-23, 01:36 AM
I do believe I will be making use of the 'not quite lying' technique quite liberally in this campaign even when magic is not involved. My DM doesn't allow careful phrasing to eliminate the need for bluff checks (since you are still hiding something), but since I will be maxing out bluff, diplomacy and sense motive anyway that's not much of an issue.

As far as using that technique for sidestepping magic, I'll be interested to see how my DM plays it. He loves playing deamons, and will screw you constantly in bad deals unless you are VERY careful with your language. On the other hand I expect he'll play any wizard smart enough to be using these sorts of magical interrogations to also be smart enough to insist on yes or no questions.

Ultimately tell technically true statements to mislead is only very effective in two situations. The first is when you know the spell has been cast, but your questioner doesn't know that you know. The second is when the magic is being wielded by a not so clever NPC (or DM). Although it's certainly fun when it does work.

Dode
2008-09-23, 02:04 AM
Spymaster PrC, Complete Adventurer.

Bluff bonuses, save vs. divination bonuses, undetectable alignment, someone scries you and they get your cover identity, Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) at will. What else do you need?

Edit: Actually, they get medium armor and all martial weapons proficiency, that's pretty interesting for a rogue PrC.

Hawriel
2008-09-23, 03:39 AM
Do note:
Any modern lawyer or investigator worth his salt knows this method, and would dismantle it in court.

Try noting that being 'modern' has no bearing on whether or not a person is skilled at rooting out deception.

Bayar
2008-09-23, 03:58 AM
Tell the truth. They will get confused when seeing how you speak of otherwise unspeakable atrocities and will think that their lie detec tor is flawed or something.

"Yeah, so I burn down the tavern after everybody was unconcious from the poisoned stab wounds. Then I raided the local stables. After killing every horse, i used a wand of animate dead to turn the horses into zombies and send them out to do my dirty work. Then I..."

"I'm telling you, this **** is broken."

Cheesegear
2008-09-23, 04:03 AM
Spymaster PrC, Complete Adventurer.

Bluff bonuses, save vs. divination bonuses, undetectable alignment, someone scries you and they get your cover identity, Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm) at will. What else do you need?

Edit: Actually, they get medium armor and all martial weapons proficiency, that's pretty interesting for a rogue PrC.

That's exactly what I thought when Kubota said it. And judging from his actions, I'd say it's well within the scope that we've seen him in that he's a Spymaster (Ninja underlings almost gives it away...). Including the fact that one of the pre-reqs to Spymaster is Skill Focus (Bluff). Yep. Definately Kubota.

charl
2008-09-23, 05:19 AM
Tell the truth. They will get confused when seeing how you speak of otherwise unspeakable atrocities and will think that their lie detec tor is flawed or something.

"Yeah, so I burn down the tavern after everybody was unconcious from the poisoned stab wounds. Then I raided the local stables. After killing every horse, i used a wand of animate dead to turn the horses into zombies and send them out to do my dirty work. Then I..."

"I'm telling you, this **** is broken."

Of course, in your standard DnD setting that wouldn't be unbelievable at all.

potatocubed
2008-09-23, 07:56 AM
Useful spells for foiling magic lie detection (at least last time I checked the rules):

Nondetection gives you I-can't-believe-it's-not-SR against divination spells (discern lie) and protection from whatever blocks zone of truth. Because it's not actually spell resistance, it still works on spells that wouldn't normally SR, but it uses the same mechanics (caster level check vs. DC). However, casters may or may not know their spell has failed. I don't know what the official ruling on that is.

Misdirection lets you completely and undetectably fool certain divinations (including discern lie and detect magic but not zone of truth). Cast it on an object on your person - your sock, for example - and you will always register as not lying, not evil, and not magical. (Evil, magical socks notwithstanding.) Unfortunately the caster of the divination gets a Will save to avoid the effect (boo), and as these people are usually clerics...

Getting wackier, very good lip-synching and ventriloquism or one of the minor/major image spells might just fly. The person actually doing the lying stands outside the area of ZoT, and so is immune to its effects. Or the 'person' doing the lying is actually an auditory magical effect, which is probably not quashed by ZoT at all.

Me, I'd go with protection from blah, nondetection and magical aura and/or misdirection to hide those magical auras.

Riffington
2008-09-23, 08:19 AM
Getting wackier, very good lip-synching and ventriloquism or one of the minor/major image spells might just fly. The person actually doing the lying stands outside the area of ZoT, and so is immune to its effects. Or the 'person' doing the lying is actually an auditory magical effect, which is probably not quashed by ZoT at all.


Note that "very good lip-synching" will register as a lie (because then you're actually saying the lie, just not audibly). Ventriloquism plus bad lip-synching or plus an illusion will work.

monty
2008-09-23, 10:17 AM
I might also suggest Modify Memory. If you remember it differently, then you aren't lying at all :)

If that's not enough, you might want to Mindrape yourself. Or everybody else. Then they'll forget they wanted to question you in the first place and remember that they owe you a lot of money.

Cainen
2008-09-23, 10:28 AM
You hope they don't have someone using Dominate Person.

monty
2008-09-23, 10:31 AM
You hope they don't have someone using Dominate Person.

Can you force somebody to say something you don't know, though? Besides, that opens plenty of opportunities for more Will saves (which you should have as high as possible).

Sebastian
2008-09-23, 11:26 AM
Usually, it depends on what the spell you are expecting.
-Zone of Truth is the most logical one. However, it requires that you attempt to answer questions. This depends on whether you are faced against an "innocent until proven guilty" court or a "guilty until proven innocent court". If you pass the Will save, however, people will be more likely to accept whatever you say as the truth.

Just remember that the caster always know if you passed your save or not.

Probably in a trial even attempt to resist is against the law. What is the term? a "Conptemt of court" or something like it.

Human Paragon 3
2008-09-23, 11:43 AM
Spymaster is clearly the way to go here. Doesn't require anything exept some skill points and skill focus:Bluff and gives you amazing defenses against magical detection spells. The big bonus to bluff, gather info, and disguise are helpful, too.

Person_Man
2008-09-23, 11:56 AM
Well, having Detect Thoughts or Telepathy yourself helps, in that you can read the mind of whoever is questioning you, and phrase your answers in such a way that they're likely to believe it. You could also use it "offensively" as well, to avoid getting into situations where people would use magical lie detection against you. It's pretty easy to get as a spell or in a wand, or you could take Cabinet Trickster, Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Dantalion, Rainbow Servant, Insidious Corrupter, Mindspy, Shadowmind, Ghostwise Halfling, Mindbender, Hellbred, Psion, Demonbinder, etc.

Slayer, Bloodhound, Spymaster, Occult Slayer, Tattoed Monk, Shadow Spy, Unseen Seer, Master of Masks, Defiant, and Shadowmind all have varying levels of non-detection.

There are a ton of different ways to get immunity to Mind Affecting effects and/or Spell Resistance.

Put those together with good social Skills, and you're set.

Mina Kobold
2008-09-23, 12:04 PM
do like the elves from Eragon they can't lie in their language but they are really good at telling something but not all. if you have to say yes or no do like this "did you stab him so he bleeded to dead" "no ( you just call something else but they don't now so its not a lie)

snoopy13a
2008-09-23, 12:19 PM
It depends on how much you practice, how good an actor you are, and what you are being accused of.

Cross examination questions are usually leading and can only be answered with yes, no, I don't know, or I cannot recall:

Example, suppose a victim is found dead of knife wounds and the prime suspect is brought in for questioning:

Questioner: Isn't it true that you are responsible for this person's death?

Defendent: Well, I...

Questioner interprets (addresses judge): Please instruct the defendent to answer with a yes or a no?

Judge (to witness): Answer yes or no

If the defendent succeeds in rationalizing that his actions weren't responsible then the questioner (e.g. I simply stabbed him, it was his own fault that he couldn't find a cleric to heal him in time) will ask exhaustive details in the yes or no format. Assuming the defendant cannot lie under magic, they would be forced to admit to everything:

Q: On the date of the murder, did you have a knife on your person:

D: Yes

Q: Did you come across the defendent

D: Yes

Q: Did you stab the defendent with your knife:

D Yes

valadil
2008-09-23, 12:31 PM
You could always be the face by default because you're ignorant. Your friends weren't responsible for murdering and robbing the shopkeeper, they were all just going to the bathroom, and you were outside guarding the ponies.

Mina Kobold
2008-09-23, 12:37 PM
I got an idea do like this:
Q: did you stab him
A: no ( Q didn't say who you stabed so you just speak of a guy you never met)
Q: did you steal the jewels
A: no(wich jewels did Q speak abaout oh he forgot to mention).
just twist and "misunderstand" as much as possible, he he he...
he he he hi hi hi mua ha ha... whoops sorry :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Riffington
2008-09-23, 12:59 PM
Also, if you want to do this properly, you may want two house rules:
1. change certain spells (Modify Memory) to Instant rather than Permanent.

After all, an Inquisitor is going to have Detect Magic, and insist you be free of spells/magic items prior to casting Zone of Truth on you. This will hose many strategies.


2. Allow a DC 20 Bluff roll for any character who succeeds on a Will Save to make the caster believe he had failed. Not being able to 100% rely on Zone of Truth makes most games more fun.

monty
2008-09-23, 01:07 PM
Also, if you want to do this properly, you may want two house rules:
1. change certain spells (Modify Memory) to Instant rather than Permanent.

After all, an Inquisitor is going to have Detect Magic, and insist you be free of spells/magic items prior to casting Zone of Truth on you. This will hose many strategies.

You could always get a custom item of Glibness and cast Magic Aura on it.

HidaTsuzua
2008-09-23, 01:21 PM
I got an idea do like this:
Q: did you stab him
A: no ( Q didn't say who you stabed so you just speak of a guy you never met)
Q: did you steal the jewels
A: no(wich jewels did Q speak abaout oh he forgot to mention).
just twist and "misunderstand" as much as possible, he he he...
he he he hi hi hi mua ha ha... whoops sorry :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

As a GM I would label this as lying since it's clear who is talked about and you're deliberately misleading. I mean it's the same of this exchange:

Q: What's 2+2?
A: 3 (That's 2+2-1, the question didn't mention a lack of a negative 1)

As someone who plays in games that focus heavily on lying and interrogation (though nothing approaching magical), my suggestion is to have a good story that will lead people away from asking the right questions.

And honestly I'm not sure a face would be really that useful. You'll be as secure as your worst liar. You might be a master of deceit but any other PCs involved may not. It might deflect people who aren't investigating that hard, but a hardcore investigator would know the key of isolating parties involved.

Breaw
2008-09-23, 03:26 PM
And honestly I'm not sure a face would be really that useful. You'll be as secure as your worst liar. You might be a master of deceit but any other PCs involved may not. It might deflect people who aren't investigating that hard, but a hardcore investigator would know the key of isolating parties involved.

The purpose of the party face is not to 'prove' the party is innocent. It's to case the scene of the crime to be in the weeks leading up to the mission, to befriend/seduce the guard and steal his/her access key, and to in general gather information useful to the party. In the same way that a sneaky rogue is useful to a party not completely composed of sneaks, a charismatic character also has their uses.

The lie detection immunity is just a yummy perk that would be nice to pick up if I can along the way.

The spymasters 'personas' fits in perfectly with how I am designing the character, so I will likely be picking up what I can from that class. We are playing a quasi homebrewed a-la-carte 3.5 campaign, so I might be able to pick up just what I really need from the class. (Namely: cover identity, undetectable alignment, quick change and deep cover)

To be clear, the ability to defy magical lie detection is in no way the focus for this class. It's just an aspect that I hadn't fully fleshed out, and I wanted to weigh my options.

Riffington
2008-09-23, 03:26 PM
You could always get a custom item of Glibness and cast Magic Aura on it.

A good idea, and if enough people do this, a decent Inquisitor will also refuse to allow a witness to wear any masterwork items. But while Sense Motive is necessary for any Inquisitor, Search may not be. A rogue or bard may be able to simply hide such an item.

Of course, Detect Magic, followed by Dispel Magic, followed by a second Detect Magic, followed by Zone of Truth... sounds like a good plan for the supremely cautious.

Dumb question: Magic Aura hides the aura of the item it is cast on. By RAW does it also hide its own aura, or does it register as an effect? [i.e. this is a nonmagical masterwork longsword. There seems to be an Illusion spell near it.] (obviously I'd rule the illusion is hidden, but I'm just curious about RAW).

Riffington
2008-09-23, 03:36 PM
If you're homebrewing, there's a feat (or maybe Skill Trick) that I've always thought ought to exist: "See what you Expect."
People pay more attention to you than to their own spells. If a divination spell would reveal trickery on your part, it gives the user a Sense Motive check at +4 opposed by your Bluff. If they succeed, the spell functions normally. If they fail, the spell still functions normally... but the caster ignores its result in favor of the image you are portraying.

Thus, a character pretending to be Good will still detect as evil to a Paladin. But if the Paladin fails her Sense Motive, she will remember the result as having been non-evil.
Only intelligent creatures can be fooled.

Zeful
2008-09-23, 03:39 PM
Magic Aura allows you to change all the auras of an item, including the spell's own aura.

Also any good D&D court starts of with Disjunction on the witness.

TwystidMynd
2008-09-23, 05:15 PM
One explanation of the similarity between the words "testimony" and "testicles."


"An old theory has it that the Romans placed their right hands on their testicles and swore by them before giving testimony in court."
(http://www.bartleby.com/61/73/T0127300.html)

In light of this, perhaps in lieu of costly anti-magic fields, or hiring mages to cast Disjunctions, or even worrying about magic items, courts in fantasy settings should simply have their witnesses come naked to testify?