TV Trope Thread: Lord Kubota---MB or Smug Snake?

[Charles Phipps]

Here's a thread to discuss whether Lord Kubota is a MB or a Smug Snake according to the Television Tropes web page. Examine both definitions then give your reasons whether you think he qualifies for one or the other.

Magnificent B***** (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard)

vs.

Smug Snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake)

[Enlong]

Smug Snake. He never really achieved true magnificence with his plans. We all just hated him. And he got Disintegrated midspeech. No real Magnificent B does that.

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, I got to go with that.

Kubota keeps acting like he's being brilliant all the time but the whole reason that he ends up getting destroyed is he narrates his plans to the people who dislike him. I literally think that Kubota was unprepared because he didn't realize The Order of the Stick isn't Lawful Good.

[Teron]

Hell, it was working on Chaotic Good Elan - it's the non-good (and, up to now, pointedly uninvolved) Vaarsuvius who unexpectedly resolved the issue.

[Lord Seth]

Hell, it was working on Chaotic Good Elan - it's the non-good (and, up to now, pointedly uninvolved) Vaarsuvius who unexpectedly resolved the issue.Vaarsuvius isn't good? All we know is (s)he isn't Lawful or Evil.

[kpenguin]

Vaarsuvius isn't good? All we know is (s)he isn't Lawful or Evil.

How do we know (s)he isn't Lawful? All we see is a fellow trying to avoid true justice and a sole elf enforcing it.

[Teron]

Vaarsuvius isn't good? All we know is (s)he isn't Lawful or Evil.
Besides his recent, questionable solution to the Kubota problem, it's been established that he only cares about power and his close friends - remember Lien's capture? For that matter, remember the dirt farmer he didn't think was worth a couple of hours of his time? He's textbook True Neutral.

[Lord Seth]

Kubota doesn't even come near the levels of Magnificent Bastard. He's the textbook Smug Snake.

[Theodoriph]

We already had a thread about this. The general consensus near the end was that Kubota was not an MB and if anything, was a Smug Snake.

[Yendor]

Who the hell is this "Lord" Kubota? There was a daimyo by that name, but that's different.

[Kurald Galain]

To reiterate -

Seriously, people, are we going to declare every villain a Magnificent Bastard whenever they do something even remotely cool? Yes, Kubota is a bastard, and nasty, and so forth. But he's several Xanatos gambits away from commencing to aspire to magnificence.

Light Yagami. Petyr Baelish. Keyser Soze. Havelock Vetinari. Dogbert.

Kubota can't hold a candle to any of them.

Kubota's plans so far:
(1) Act all snooty against Hinjo. Yup, he's got that down.
(2) Run away when Azure City is under attack. Okay, it worked, but that's not very magnificent.
(3) Kill Hinjo through Grand Larceny Dude. FAIL.
(4) Kill Hinjo through two ninjas during battle. FAIL.
(5) Prevent upstart soldiers from becoming nobles. FAIL.
(6) Kill Hinjo with sea trolls and/or Therkla. FAIL.
(7) Get Hinjo killed by orcs on that island. FAIL.
(8) When Hinjo is distracted through happenstance (which he didn't plan), kill the Kato family. FAIL.
(9) Be seen on the crime scene as the hero who defeated the Kato's killers. FAIL.
(10) Kill his own minion for deserting him. Okay, he did that. That isn't magnificent either.
(11) Escape from Hinjo's boat. FAIL.
(12) Lie his way through the trial. FAIL.

So Kubota is mostly a magnificent failure. His plans are obvious, he can't xanatos his way out of a paper bag, and his success rate is abysmal. It's simply that since TVtropes became well-known, every fictional character that does something even remotely cool is immediately declared a MB by a bunch of fanboys, spur-of-the-moment style.

(Speaking of which, the last guy we discussed, mr. oracle, is also neither magnificent nor a bastard; the only one so far who might qualify is Shojo, or possibly Redcloak if he didn't fail all the time)

[Ancalagon]

Vaarsuvius isn't good? All we know is (s)he isn't Lawful or Evil.

Err, everything we saw so far STRONGLY hints towards Neutral (and s/he is surely not chaotic; that results in true neutral).

[Voyager_I]

etc.

You forgot

"13) Be alive, or have any practical chance of ever being restored to life. FAIL."

If you're going to be a scheming bastard, it would be wise to pay a bit more attention to the maverick outsider who gives little or no regard to the social structures you currently hide behind and can kill you with a standard action.

[busterswd]

They're usually protected from the heroes either by having the law on their side, a position of authority, or the heroes' own moral code.

That describes Kubota to a T. The only thing keeping him alive and free was his ability to wriggle within the confines of Azurite law, his well liked position as a noble, and the restraint of the heroes/Hinjo from just up and killing him.

[JT Jag]

Kubota was a Smug Snake (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmugSnake) With Good Publicity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity) In Plain Sight (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DevilInPlainSight).

[Chronos]

Definitely not a Magnificent Bastard.

Does TVTropes have an entry for "Pile of dust"? Because I'm debating between "smug snake" and that.

[Nerdanel]

Definitely a smug snake who wasn't as smart as he imagined himself to be. The only reason his overblown ego wasn't deflated by a trial finding him guilty of everything is that he didn't make it alive to the trial.

[LordVader]

Smug Snake with a couple of moments of Magnificent Bastardry.

[ericgrau]

Easier to call him an SS now, but I'll agree. I kinda suspected it before, when things were going bad and he got even more arrogant. Everything went downhill ever since the island encounter, and it started seeming more and more like improvisation and less like he actually knew what was going on.

[Mewtarthio]

I'd say the disintigration clinches it. Magnificent Bastards die when their plans are finally unravelled after much hard work and sacrifice. They don't get blasted like that: They're too smart to let that happen. Besides, the scene clearly demonstrates that Kubota is just a small, pathetic man who's dealing with things way above his Challenge Rating.

Plus, y'know, he's a miserable failure. Most of his assassination attempts were just wastes of resources. The death of Therkla shows he's got contingency plans down nice, but he's never actually advanced in position.

[TigerHunter]

Checklist for Magnificent Bastardism:
[x] Audacity
[x] Charisma
[] Self-Reliance
[] Plays the odds and wins regularly
[] Has and makes use of talents beyond scheming
[] Can play other people's emotions like a piano
[/] Easily turns setbacks into advantages
[] Even when you deprive him of wealth and status, take away his dupes and catspaws, and foil his elaborate plot, he remains a force to be reckoned with

Kubota is certainly audacious, and likely has CHA oozing out his ears. He is completely incompetent when left alone, and it's only thanks to his inherited power structure that he managed to come close to achieving anything. His attempts at pretty much everything are clumsy and unimaginative. He couldn't manipulate a bee into making honey for him. He does make a fairly good (if his opinion is to be believed) attempt at turning his own arrest into a point for his side, but he fails at that, largely due to his bragging. A true Magnificent Bastard doesn't feel the need to explain every little part of his plan beforehand, and would only do so to manipulate the situation even further. Kubota was bragging about his plans for a completely separate reason--to massage his already overinflated ego.

[Gavin Sage]

I don't think one can be an MB without at least one Crowning Moment of Awesome. Kubota maybe has some hints, but just isn't.

Classic Smug Snake.

[Lamech]

Unless he has a way of restoring himself to life, and getting rid or the OotS I would say Smug Snake. If the order goes away after this and he can seize the fleet he might Qualify for smug snake, while his manipulations may work; he lacks any coolness or awesomeness so no MB for him. If he failed utterly I really don't he really qualifies as a Smug Snake; he wasn't really much of a threat, Quar is responsible for the Devil and other monsters.

[JaxGaret]

Does TVTropes have an entry for "Pile of dust"?

I had a good laugh at that one.

Also, I checked, and no it doesn't.

[Eric]

Yeah, I got to go with that.

Kubota keeps acting like he's being brilliant all the time but the whole reason that he ends up getting destroyed is he narrates his plans to the people who dislike him. I literally think that Kubota was unprepared because he didn't realize The Order of the Stick isn't Lawful Good.

And, which is the clincher to my mind, he's smug smiling as he says it!

No flair. No panache. No *style*. Just smug smuggity smug smiling.

EDIT: I *did* like him and still do. He was an effective and worthwhile villain. He had his moments of awesome and he took advantage well.

And part of the reason I liked him is he was a smug little PITA! A character that gets you involved in the story and the arc they are making, even if they are a smug little so and so, is a good character.

[Eric]

Besides his recent, questionable solution to the Kubota problem, it's been established that he only cares about power and his close friends - remember Lien's capture? For that matter, remember the dirt farmer he didn't think was worth a couple of hours of his time? He's textbook True Neutral.

Not really.

Think of Susan Sto Helit in "Thief of Time".

"You *Hero*" she said. In the same way as a southerner after the civil war would say "Yankee". The Sweeper told Lobsang better than that. If you're racing lightning to stop the end of the World, DON'T STOP TO HELP THE OLD MAN WHO CAN'T MAKE IT IN TIME.

All that means is you don't make it either.

So if you take V as LG, they are assessing whether it is better to get to the bottom of the mystery, find out why they are in trouble and why it is so serious they are being kidnapped.

Or help some no-names that, after being rescued, have the rescued man being asked to be kidnapped again.

Oooh, lets weigh up the pro and con on that one!

An extremely lawful (logical) point of view.

If that is how you view the lawful alignment.

[David Argall]

Smug snake given he just got offed so casually

[Teron]

Not really.

Think of Susan Sto Helit in "Thief of Time".

"You *Hero*" she said. In the same way as a southerner after the civil war would say "Yankee". The Sweeper told Lobsang better than that. If you're racing lightning to stop the end of the World, DON'T STOP TO HELP THE OLD MAN WHO CAN'T MAKE IT IN TIME.

All that means is you don't make it either.

So if you take V as LG, they are assessing whether it is better to get to the bottom of the mystery, find out why they are in trouble and why it is so serious they are being kidnapped.

Or help some no-names that, after being rescued, have the rescued man being asked to be kidnapped again.

Oooh, lets weigh up the pro and con on that one!

An extremely lawful (logical) point of view.

If that is how you view the lawful alignment.
1. The arresting individual thought they had time to stop and help, and, in theory, she was the best qualified to judge that. As far as we know, Lord Shojo told her that her task was important, but not necessarily urgent.

2. Vaarsuvius made it abundantly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) clear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html) that he was going along to satisfy his curiosity, and not out of any obligation to protect the integrity of the universe (which by all indications was weakened, but not sustaining further damage or at significant risk, especially with Xykon apparently destroyed).

3. Even if the old man was serious about being captured on purpose (as opposed to saying so to insult his wife), the party had no reason to suspect such an unusual situation beforehand. As it happens, V's famous "love and marriage" (well, famous for what it revealed) speech, delivered upon the couple's reunion return, implies that he thinks there's more to their relationship than the nastiness shown. Besides, the old woman said the ogres have been causing much more trouble than kidnapping one old man.

[Laurentio II]

Smug Snake with a couple of moments of Magnificent Bastardry.
Name one. Just one.

[Kurald Galain]

Name one. Just one.

His sudden disintegration? :smallbiggrin:

[J.Gellert]

His sudden disintegration? :smallbiggrin:

That was a crowning moment of awesome indeed. For V-man :smallbiggrin:

[Laurentio II]

That was a crowning moment of awesome indeed. For V-man :smallbiggrin:
Now, really, I suppose that (1) poisoning a ninja and (2) walking away with impunity are cool stuff. Problem is, manipulation equals zero, and he died as a almost direct consequence. So, no Magnificent Bastard.

[Voyager_I]

Now, really, I suppose that (1) poisoning a ninja and (2) walking away with impunity are cool stuff. Problem is, manipulation equals zero, and he died as a almost direct consequence. So, no Magnificent Bastard.

It only counts as "walking away with impunity" if he actually gets away. So far his grandest accomplishment has been draining the human resources of his house. He lost three Ninja powerful enough to defeat Hinjo in the battle for Azure City, Quarr's service marker has been expended fruitlessly, Quarr himself is most likely out of house Kubota's employment, Therkla is dead, several more of his Ninja were killed in the attack on the Katos, and the two Samurai who were good enough to easily overpower Kazumi (and know Therkla personally) are also taking dirt naps.

That is, naturally, in addition to the loss of his himself as a major source of popular and political influence.

...and, you know, that +5 armor and small fortune of other protective items that are currently halfway to the bottom.

Other than that, he was mostly noted for trying and failing to capitalize on opportunities, rather than manipulating his opponents so that they create situations that benefit him. The hallmark of the MB is the Xanatos Gambit, which has two key aspects which Kubota misses completely; your opponents do as you want them to without knowing it, and end even when they foil your plans, you still win.

Kubota died because even though his escape plan worked flawlessly, it was fatally flawed. Elan waited the whole ten rounds and still caught him, whereupon he was just some old fart in a rowboat wearing Heavy Armor.

[Fighteer]

Heck, we have pretty good evidence that Kubota spent most of his time before his actual appearance in the comic being manipulated by Shojo into scheming against the other nobles. While we don't know exactly what Kubota was up to, Shojo was very clear in telling Roy that he adopted his guise of senility to keep the nobles from directing their energies towards assassinating him.

So, not only did Kubota abjectly fail at his goal of manipulating himself into rulership of Azure City (or its remnants); he was rendered more or less ineffective by the former ruler as well.

While it's certainly possible that Elan, Hinjo, et. al., will have to spend a few strips cleaning up the political mess of Kubota's death, the major antagonist of this story arc is now gone, kaput, defunct. The only significant character left is Qarr, and he's already blown his influence. There's nowhere important for this plot line to go anymore, unless another villain shows up out of nowhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull).

As for where we go from here,
The OotS still have to meet up at some point, and as long as Elan, Durkon, and V are stuck on the ships with Hinjo's people, they won't be able to go after the next major goal: Girard's Gate. V's "assassination" of Kubota could be the last straw as far as Hinjo is concerned - he could decide that having the OotS along is more of a liability than an asset, or they could "amicably part ways" so he doesn't have to put V on trial. Hinjo is a great character, but I think that once Redcloak and Xykon finally get a move on, he'll be more interested in reclaiming Azure City than moving on to defend the next gate.

Caveat: The presence of the rift above AC makes it highly questionable whether it could be reinhabited without epic-level magic to reseal it. Plus, pretty much every AC survivor will know that it's there now, so the secret is out. Might as well put a sign on the front gate: "Azure City, home of the (former) Sapphire Guard and a rift in the fabric of reality". Given this, Hinjo might decide to resettle his people somewhere else - maybe even near Girard's Gate.
Anyway, back to Kubota, his arc is over. There's nowhere to go from here that wouldn't look like a Deus Ex Machina, and the hallmark of a Magnificent Bastard is that he always, always lives to fight again, until his final Karmic Death. So yeah, no MB for Kubota.