Delete please cont.

[Owrtho]

A continuation of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91645) non existant thread.

Working on coming up with rules for the plane of nothingness.



Let me first point out that there is indeed the possibility that your first point is correct and that a non-entity that ceases to exist and/or non-exist may very well cease both simultaneously resulting in a non-entity for all intents and purposes.

That said, I see no reason why an act of non-existence would not cause the opposite to occur. The two (existence and non-existence) are dichotomous as my pseudo-ontological demonstrated. And the laws of polarity clearly state that inverting something will always cause the opposite to occur no matter what. The chances are quite high that a non-existent that ceases to non-exist would thus come to exist.
The issue here is that you are treating it as all things that don't exist are not in the plane of nothingness emulating existance to the fullest extent possible in a non existant area. However, when one does succesfulf refute the existance of a non existant force or entity on the plane of nothingness, it does not necasarily invert it, merely it comes to stop emulating its existance (which does not exist) on the plane of nothingness with no effect on any possible exiting planes if such a thing does indeed exist. Thus there would always be the risk in refuting your existance (and proving you don't exist) that you would not manage to leave the plane of nothingness, but just cease to be represented therein forever condeming yourself to not existing without even the aleviation of your non existant boredom that nonexistance offers (not that you'll care since you don't exist).

Also, I cannot tell if you made any mention of actualy entering the plane of nothingness asuming that such a place as is not in it exists.

Owrtho

Owrtho

[thegurullamen]

A continuation of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91645) non existant thread...

Owrtho

As there is no way to test this hypothesis of non-interactions between two sides of the same coin (here Prime Material and TPoN, hereafter referred to as TRON because of the similarity between the new name and the prior acronym,) many of the ideas put forth in your rebuttal lack sufficient base. In point of fact, it seems as though having one side of the coin affect the other (here PM to TRON by virtue of [supposedly one-way] travel to TRON) would open up the slightest possibility for the opposite to occur (here TRON to PM minor effects and possible travel.)

But, if planar physics has taught us anything, it's that nature abhors asymmetry and favors balance. Life--nay, existence and its opposite--are not entirely chaotic and still hold to several basic laws, a few of which we have established. One of these governs the transition from existence to non-existence (as shown below.) Another governs the opposite relationship: that which leaves stands to come back. Even if it does not, the potential for such an occurrence must still exist, even in an abysmally small fraction of a possibility. Balance, and nature by extension, demand it.

I noticed that you were correct in assuming that I had not covered the topic of travel to TRON. That is because it is always possible, due to the natural entropic state of PM, to enter TRON if only by virtue of decaying ala existing; one day, everything you love will turn to ash. Which will then disappear. (A TRON elemental if ever there were one if I may be so bold.) TRON, that place of quintessential nothingness, embraces such changes from the PM and indeed, we all feel its cold tendrils slowly wrapping tightly around our necks as the days pass. C'est la vie y c'est la existence.

For the record, I would like to quote the Rolling Stones by saying "You can't always get what you want but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need." This important adage may or may not serve to enlighten my future self and/or support future arguments, but I would like it on the record nonetheless.

[Owrtho]

Your however assuming that when something is disbelieved in TRON that it ceases its lack of existence, this is not necasarily true. It could quite easily just change the nature of its lacking existence from one that is expressed to other non existant entities on TRON to one that is no more percieved than what one finds does not exist on the PM. After all, when one ignores something that does not exist, they are not denieing it its non existence, but accepting it does not exist and in doing so is not effected by it.

Owrtho

[thegurullamen]

Your however assuming that when something is disbelieved in TRON that it ceases its lack of existence, this is not necasarily true. It could quite easily just change the nature of its lacking existence from one that is expressed to other non existant entities on TRON to one that is no more percieved than what one finds does not exist on the PM. After all, when one ignores something that does not exist, they are not denieing it its non existence, but accepting it does not exist and in doing so is not effected by it.

Owrtho

Perhaps, but this interpretation is open to abuse. For example, who is to say that it is the external non-existent that is affected rather than the portion of the consciousness of the willful ignorer. That that which no longer exists does not affect him in any way could in all actuality be an onset of acute dementia and, by all clinical definitions, it is.

We must, as individuals and I dare say as members of society acknowledge that there is indeed a transitory phase between existence and its opposite and that there exists yet another transitory phase after non-existence has become the new medium for what the French commonly refer to as je no se qua. I still hold, despite your allegations to the contrary, that JensQ (the French term's nickname) can eventually and does occasionally lead back to existence by virtue of the balance I expounded upon earlier.

[Owrtho]

The issue though is that there is no change in balance as a nonexistent entity that is ignored suffers no change in state. As there is not change in state, there is also no change in balance, and therefor no need for balance to be restored. This is not to say that it is not possible for ignoring something to be a method to make it exist, just saying that is also likely it won't come into existence afterwords. (also there is the possibility there is no real existence for there to be balance with).

Owrtho

[Zeta Kai]

This a non-post for a non-thread, non-posted by a non-poster in a non-thread.

[thegurullamen]

The issue though is that there is no change in balance as a nonexistent entity that is ignored suffers no change in state. As there is not change in state, there is also no change in balance, and therefor no need for balance to be restored. This is not to say that it is not possible for ignoring something to be a method to make it exist, just saying that is also likely it won't come into existence afterwords. (also there is the possibility there is no real existence for there to be balance with).

Owrtho

See, now that last part sounds like solipsism. And I've got the hoses on standby.

I didn't speak of balance as a micro-level event needing constant tending on every interpersonal/inter-entitial interaction. This isn't Mechanus for the gods' sakes! Getting a cup of coffee with an attractive woman or simply ignoring the (non-)existence of an external entity is not a process ruled over by the forces of law and order, requiring one hundred perfect levels of bureaucratic red tape to be filed every day at precisely noon sharp (including Sundays) for one hundred days prior to said event! I was speaking at the macro-level, the laws bounding the universe and allowing for the dichotomous relationship that we've been discussing for days now. Hells, all dichotomous relationships for that matter. For all intents and purposes, those laws are as strict (and occasionally esoteric) as an Abyssal DMV, though much more benign on average. That which does not exist does not exist and that which does, does. If, in ignoring a non-existent entity, one comes to transcend the level of non-existence on which that non-entity does not-reside, it cannot be said that the act of ignoring has left the non-entity unchanged. Its inability to interact with an otherwise similar non-entity has been compromised. One of the tenets of this type of non-existence--that all non-existent things behave as though they existed except when they do not--has been violated as the ignored non-entity can do neither! Its inability to interact with another non-entity means it cannot function as though it did exist and the ignorer's invalidation of its status as non-entity (at least within the same realms of non-being) means it cannot fulfill the requirements necessary to have been considered a non-entity; how can it for it has never not-existed, even in non-entitial non-form as dictated by the diligent Willful Ignorer.

This paradox opens new avenues of thought and delivers unto minds--both existing and not--the tools with which testing existence and its counterpart's very natures has become not only possible but imperative!

[Owrtho]

how can it for it has never not-existed, even in non-entitial non-form as dictated by the diligent Willful Ignorer.

This paradox opens new avenues of thought and delivers unto minds--both existing and not--the tools with which testing existence and its counterpart's very natures has become not only possible but imperative!

That is increadably inacurate. A non entity that is willfully ignored does not cease to not exist. It just 'accepts' its lack of existence and ceases to be notable from anything else that does not exist (the accepts is singled out as it does not require the non entities acceptance, but I couldn't think of a better word). As such it continues to not exist and no paradox is formed.
This line does not exist, as doesn't Zeta Kai's non post
On another note, due to the fact that matter can not be created or destroyed, how can something that has never existed be spontaneously made to exist without distupting the existance of something else (this is not a problem on TRON as it doesn't exist so need not be subjigated to the rules of existance). Therefor, even after leaving the plane of nothingness, unless equal substance is made to not exist so that the is enough for the previous non entity to exist, the non entities will continue to not exist. This means that over time there would be an increasing amount of nonexistant materials and forces on the PM.
This line doesn't exist either.
Owrtho

[Zeta Kai]

My non-posts don't exist so much, the other two non-posters don't even acknowledge their non-existence. ;D

[Shadow_Elf]

I think you guys broke Zeta...

[Owrtho]

??? What are you talking about?
Naw, we just finnished breaking him. Also this line doesn't exist.
Owrtho

[Vazzaroth]

I cast Summon Vaarsuvius to put this tl;dr rambling to shame.

[Zeta Kai]

I think you guys broke Zeta...

Nobody broke me. I just like non-speaking in non-white non-text. :smallwink:

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Would the plane of non-existence happen to need some non-existent outsiders?

[Draken]

Would the plane of non-existence happen to need some non-existent outsiders?

There is a non-need.

[Owrtho]

Well as it doesn't exist, it wouldn't need them, but anything that is nothing helps particularly if it doesn't exist.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves ← This line doesn't exist
Owrtho

[Zeta Kai]

Would the plane of non-existence happen to need some non-existent outsiders?

Don't they already not exist? :smallwink:

[streakster]

Today I met upon the stair
a little man who was not there.
He was not there again today.
I wish, I wish he'd go away.

If this thread or this poem existed, it seems to me they would fit perfectly.