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dspeyer
2008-09-22, 10:43 PM
There were some scary builds last week. Now let's kill them.


RETURN OF THE GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE V: MAGE SLAYERS

Create a character capable of hunting down and killing an optimized and genre-savvy arcanist. Explain the tactics you will use, if necessary.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

We'll follow Duke of URL's old rules plus with a few minor changes.

For numeric attributes with progressions (such as BAB and saves) first determine at each level which progression the attribute follows, then count how many levels of each progression you have, then index into the progressions, then add them together. This means that a fighter 1 / sorceror 19 // wizard 20 has 1 level of good BAB and 19 of bad, giving +1 and +9 respectively for a total BAB of +10. Similarly, a character with 20 different marshal classes gets a base fort save of +12, not +40. It's not addressed in the gestalt or multiclassing rules, but this tends to make the most reasonable builds.

Disregard the clause about multiclassing penalties. We could never figure out how to apply it anyway.

If you are using multiple templates, you may only do so in a way which makes sense with what the template means. For example, you may only use one template that represents one parent being of a different race unless your base race is one where more-than-two parent reproduction is normal.

Well known cheese (pun-pun, omnificer, etc.) is banned.

Here are Duke of URL's old rules, for those who have forgotten them. Spoilered because they're long


Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

monty
2008-09-22, 11:14 PM
I don't know what I'm going to do yet, but I should warn you - expect serious cheese. Regular casters are strong enough, but to take down an optimized caster won't be easy.

Adumbration
2008-09-23, 12:15 AM
I call him... Bob.

Race: Aasimar
Class progression:
LA/Soulknife 1
Ranger 1/Soulknife 2
Ranger 2/Soulknife 3
Ranger 3/Soulknife 4
Ranger 4/Soulknife 5
Ranger 5/Soulbow 1
Ranger 6/Soulbow 2
Soulknife 6/Soulbow 3
Soulknife 7/Soulbow 4
Soulknife 8/Soulbow 5
Soulknife 9/Soulbow 6
Soulknife 10/Soulbow 7
Soulknife 11/Soulbow 8
Swordsage 1/Soulbow 9
Swordsage 2/Soulbow 10
Swordsage 4/Soulknife 6
Swordsage 5/Soulknife 7
Swordsage 6/Soulknife 8
Swordsage 7/Soulknife 9
Swordsage 8/Soulknife 10

His mind arrows are +5 Ghost Touch Collision Wounding Mind arrows of Seeking. In his left hand, he holds a Gem of True Seeing, and from his right spring the deadly bolts that slay his enemies. His AB is insane, due to getting his extremely buffed Wis, which also goes to damage. He gets so many attacks a round that it isn't even funny, from the Mongoose line of Sublime way, and boots of Speed. He gets almost all the possible archery feats there are.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-23, 12:25 AM
Hrmmm... best I can come up with without breaking the game is...

Name: The Whisper in the night

Race: Whispergnome

Class build: Ninja19/Shadow Dancer1//Warlock20

Skills: Hide
Move Silently
Jump
Balance
Climb
Tumble
Use Magic Device

Feats:
1. Extra Silence
3. Silencing Strike
6. Weapon Finesse
9. Combat Reflexes
12. Dodge
15. Mobility
18. Dark Stalker

Stats:
STR: 10 16
DEX: 28 34
CON: 14 20
INT: 10 16
WIS: 12 18
CHA: 10 16

Invocations:
Least:
Baleful Utterance
Spiderwalk
Entropic Warding
Lesser:
Flee the Scene
Fell Flight
Voracious Dispelling
Greater:
Chilling Tentacles
Devouring Magic
Wall of Perilous Flame
Dark:
Dark Foresight
Retributive Invisibility
Impenetrable Barrier

Gear: +5 Tome of Dex, +5 Cloak of Resistance, +6 Belt of Magnificence, +8 Bracers of Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Brilliant Energy Dagger



I don't think I need to explain the modus operandi for this character, do I? :smallbiggrin:

dspeyer
2008-09-23, 01:06 AM
I don't think I need to explain the modus operandi for this character, do I? :smallbiggrin:

No, that's pretty clear. Divination spells might be a problem, though.

dspeyer
2008-09-23, 01:07 AM
It's too bad the template doesn't have a level adjust, because I just realized a half-clay-golem with a deep hatred of batman wizards would be perfect here.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-23, 01:36 AM
No, that's pretty clear. Divination spells might be a problem, though.

Well, he's nigh impossible to scry on, is constantly hiding as well as invisible, and can't be tracked by scent.

There's not a lot more I could do as Divinations are nigh impossible to block, unless I missed something very obvious.

Kizara
2008-09-23, 01:40 AM
Well, he's nigh impossible to scry on, is constantly hiding as well as invisible, and can't be tracked by scent.

There's not a lot more I could do as Divinations are nigh impossible to block, unless I missed something very obvious.

Mind Blank?

Rei_Jin
2008-09-23, 01:42 AM
Scroll+UMD = Whatever spell I need. I only have 23 ranks in it, plus I can take 10. :smallbiggrin:

So, if there's a spell out there that helps me, I can use it.

Fishy
2008-09-23, 01:54 AM
I call him... Bob.

You forgot your Antimagic Field. Swordsages and Soulknives can run around freely in an AMF, with their pseudo-magic weapons and teleportation and fake Time Stop, whereas mages can... Well, Batman their way out of it in some complicated way I don't recall offhand.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-23, 03:00 PM
I'm in. It'll probably be a VoP Cleric of Mystra with a bunch of Swordsage levels.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-23, 04:18 PM
And the obligatory... Basketweaver v2.0!!!

Commoner // Warrior
Commoner // Survivor
Commoner // Warrior
Commoner // Warrior
Commoner // Expert
Commoner // Expert
Commoner // Expert
Commoner // Samurai
Commoner // Samurai
Commoner // Samurai
Commoner // Monk
Commoner // Monk
Commoner // Monk
Commoner // Soulknife
Commoner // Soulknife
Commoner // Soulknife
Commoner // Healer
Commoner // Healer
Commoner // Healer
Commoner // Aristocrat

Race: Elan, Warforged, or anything else without an age limit. Using the crappiest classes known to man, he simply takes the feat Skill Focus: Craft: Basketweaving, and hopes to outlive the mage. Hey, not all mages are immortal!

(edit) AND of course the Chicken Infested feat, to keep himself company. Not to mention food. More feats include anything that generates fire, for the Kentucky factor; I think a bloodline + reserve combo can pull it off. If not, splotch warlock/1 for Leaps & Bounds (what fun!) and eldritch blurb.

quillbreaker
2008-09-23, 05:18 PM
And the obligatory... Basketweaver v2.0!!!
Race: Elan, Warforged, or anything else without an age limit. Using the crappiest classes known to man, he simply takes the feat Skill Focus: Craft: Basketweaving, and hopes to outlive the mage. Hey, not all mages are immortal!

Why those particular classes with Commoner? Or am I taking the joke too seriously?

Kizara
2008-09-23, 05:26 PM
Why those particular classes with Commoner? Or am I taking the joke too seriously?

Cause they are garbage.

Chronos
2008-09-23, 05:33 PM
There's not a lot more I could do as Divinations are nigh impossible to block, unless I missed something very obvious.The best protection against divinations I've found is the [Illithid] Slayer's Cerebral Blind ability, at the 6th level of the class (character level 10 or higher). That combined with Darkstalker and high stealth skills will protect you from everything short of divine knowledge (which a caster can potentially get via Contact Other Planes or Commune), epic magic, or Metafaculty (which isn't strictly speaking "casting").

Against Metafaculty or Contact Other Planes, though, you pretty much need epic yourself.

Note also that these guys aren't for an arena fight: Any combatant is really going to need some means of finding the wizard, and probably some form of planar travel (both within and across planes) to reach him.


Kurald, where are the chickens? Don't tell me you forgot the chickens.

Douglas
2008-09-23, 06:01 PM
Note also that these guys aren't for an arena fight: Any combatant is really going to need some means of finding the wizard, and probably some form of planar travel (both within and across planes) to reach him.
In particular, every viable build is going to need some way to get at a paranoid wizard who has Mind Blank up 24/7, spends most of his time inside his Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, and uses Astral Projection whenever he needs to leave said MMM. There aren't very many ways to do that. In particular, I can only think of four: Metafaculty (provided you have seen the wizard somehow, probably via some sort of viewing-the-past power); Wish (transport the wizard to you, hope he fails the save); Miracle (powerful request, hope your deity likes you); and divine intervention. Good luck.

lord_khaine
2008-09-23, 06:46 PM
i could imagine a psion/illithid slayer//swordsage could work here.

the psion part would get Metafaculty to find the wizard, temporal acceleration to get up besides him and activate a antipsionic field, and lastly swordsage powers to be able to kill him while under the field.

ashmanonar
2008-09-23, 07:43 PM
i could imagine a psion/illithid slayer//swordsage could work here.

the psion part would get Metafaculty to find the wizard, temporal acceleration to get up besides him and activate a antipsionic field, and lastly swordsage powers to be able to kill him while under the field.

Quite a few Swordsage powers are supernatural. Quite a few stances as well. They wouldn't work in the anti-magic/psionic field.

Eldariel
2008-09-23, 08:41 PM
May I just build a Wizard (or Cleric) Gish focused on Mage Slaying? 'cause that's really the only way. Although Psionic Gish isn't probably impossible - just very, very hard to make work.

ash: Swordsage would be fine. All you really need is to keep him in the anti-psionic field - all that takes is Stand Still, threatened area and some way to avoid 1s. And most of SS maneuvers are ex. There're a few su ones, but they're mostly Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind neither of which is really even optimal for killing a guy up close - they're all pretty much ranged. As a bonus, you can teleport while under APF since Shadow Blink et co. are Ex. But yea, Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind allows for finishing the mage off really fast.

Chronos
2008-09-23, 09:16 PM
Quite a few Swordsage powers are supernatural. Quite a few stances as well. They wouldn't work in the anti-magic/psionic field.The simple solution to that is to just not choose any of those.

Draz74
2008-09-23, 09:31 PM
And the obligatory... Basketweaver v2.0!!!

Commoner // Warrior
Commoner // Survivor


Sorry, you don't meet the prerequisites for Survivor. :smallamused:


The best protection against divinations I've found is the [Illithid] Slayer's Cerebral Blind ability, at the 6th level of the class (character level 10 or higher). That combined with Darkstalker and high stealth skills will protect you from everything short of divine knowledge (which a caster can potentially get via Contact Other Planes or Commune), epic magic, or Metafaculty (which isn't strictly speaking "casting").

While this is all true, a Third Eye Conceal (120k cost) is a reasonable substitute for a 20th-level character who isn't a Slayer.

monty
2008-09-23, 10:12 PM
Well, I'll see what I can do.

Race: Half Green Dragon Petal
Class: Warblade 4 / Marshal 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 4 / Master Thrower 5 / Warblade +1 / Invisible Blade 5 // LA +5 / Factotum 3 / Warlock 12
Stats (pre-racial): Str 8 Dex 28 (18) Con 14 (8) Int 20 (14) Wis 8 Cha 24 (14), put level points into Dex
Cheese points: 4 (items), 6 if you count contingencies. Note that this is only relevant against high-level, paranoid mages. For "everyday" combat, it's 0.

{table]Level | Class 1 | Class 2 | Feat(s)/Features
1 | Warblade 1 | LA 1 | Point Blank Shot
2 | Warblade 2 | LA 2 |
3 | Warblade 3| LA 3 | Precise Shot
4 | Warblade 4 | LA 4 |
5 | Marshal 1 | LA 5 |
6 | Bloodstorm Blade 1 | Factotum 1 | Weapon Focus (dagger)
7 | Bloodstorm Blade 2 | Factotum 2 |
8 | Bloodstorm Blade 3 | Warlock 1 | Power Attack
9 | Bloodstorm Blade 4 | Warlock 2 | Stormguard Warrior
10 | Master Thrower 1 | Warlock 3 | Palm Throw
11 | Master Thrower 2 | Warlock 4 |
12 | Master Thrower 3 | Warlock 5 | Far Shot, Trip Shot
13 | Master Thrower 4 | Warlock 6 |
14 | Master Thrower 5 | Warlock 7 | Weak Spot
15 | Warblade 5 | Warlock 8 | Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
16 | Invisible Blade 1 | Warlock 9 |
17 | Invisible Blade 2 | Warlock 10 |
18 | Invisible Blade 3 | Warlock 11 | Craft Contingent Spell
19 | Invisible Blade 4 | Factotum 3 |
20 | Invisible Blade 5 | Warlock 12 [/table]
Level 20 numbers:
HP
BAB +19
Fort +9 Ref +10 Will +9
AC 32 (+11 Dex, +2 Size, +4 Natural, +5 Unnamed (Invisible Blade))

Equipment:
Belt of Battle
Scroll of Superior Invisibility
Scroll of Mind Blank
Scroll of Greater Teleport

I'll put in a new strategy, but keeping a similar build. See if you can find any problems with this.

Craft a contingent Mordenkainen's Disjunction on the condition "when I am in the same square as <name>." This should nicely strip all of his buffs and break a lot of his equipment.
Craft a contingent Antimagic Field on the condition "after Mordenkainen's Disjunction is cast." This keeps him from casting and killing you.

First, UMD the scrolls of Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank. This ensures that he won't know you're coming until it's too late. Start at least 125 feet away, so he can't find you with True Seeing. Motivate Dexterity with your minor aura.

Round 1
With at least +27 to initiative(+11 Dex, +5 Int, +7 Cha, +4 Imp Init), you're going to go first. Activate 2 charges on the Belt of Battle, using the standard action to UMD Greater Teleport into his square, activating both of your contingencies. Now the fun begins. Use your regular standard action to make a double trip attack with your dagger, thanks to Master Thrower's Palm Throw ability. With +33 to hit (+19 BAB, +11 Dex, +2 Size, +1 Weapon Focus) and +27 to your Trip check (+11 Dex, +5 Int, +7 Cha, +4 from Master Thrower), you're only going to be failing if you roll a 1 on the touch attack, and you get two chances. If you know he has no nonmagical armor (and you should really do your research before you try something like this), you can probably power attack for full and do even more damage.

Round 2
He's on the ground. When he gets up, you can make two attacks of opportunity. Now he can either attack you, and probably miss (and do pitiful damage even if he connects), or try to leave the AMF, giving you another two trip attempts. In either case, he's still in your square, so you can make a full attack with Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm on your action (8 attacks).

Round 3
More trip AoO's as applicable. On your turn, make a regular full attack for 8 touch attacks. Since you have +14 to hit before BAB, you can probably safely power attack for full. This gives you 1d2 (weapon) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 38 (Power Attack) + 40 (Combat Rhythm) -1 (strength). If all attacks hit (about a 66% chance, assuming you hit on a 2), that averages 712 damage. If he's not dead, go back to round 2.

JaxGaret
2008-09-23, 10:43 PM
Create a character capable of hunting down and killing an optimized and genre-savvy arcanist. Explain the tactics you will use, if necessary.

I may have missed it, but did the build challenge state anything about whether or not the build could itself be a spellcaster?

If not, that seems like a huge hole, and needs to be addressed.

monty
2008-09-23, 11:10 PM
I may have missed it, but did the build challenge state anything about whether or not the build could itself be a spellcaster?

If not, that seems like a huge hole, and needs to be addressed.

I think people seem to be assuming that anyway, since none of the entries so far (although there's only three that I can see) have any full caster classes.

JaxGaret
2008-09-23, 11:25 PM
I think people seem to be assuming that anyway, since none of the entries so far (although there's only three that I can see) have any full caster classes.

I know, but it still matters in terms of "cheese" points - what if a build has a minimal amount of casting? Or a pseudo-casting type of class, such as the Binder or Warlock? Are those no-nos?

monty
2008-09-23, 11:29 PM
I know, but it still matters in terms of "cheese" points - what if a build has a minimal amount of casting? Or a pseudo-casting type of class, such as the Binder or Warlock? Are those no-nos?

For purposes of the competition, I obviously have no say. Personally, though, I'd be fine with those (notice I didn't call the second build, with full warlock progression, a caster). Also, since it's specifically to kill an arcane caster, I might accept divine magic.

Talic
2008-09-24, 12:00 AM
Personally, I'd go with Minor Arcane classes would be ok, such as Assassin. Anything that gets 5th level spells or higher would likely be out.

I'd also see any divine caster as eligible. In fact, the build I'll be using will likely be a druid of some form... Or an undead. Not sure which. Heck, maybe both.

BobVosh
2008-09-24, 12:22 AM
Surprise Round
10 ranged touch attacks (4 base +1 from Cunning Surge x2 from Palm Throw) at +31 (+19 BAB, +10 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Weapon Focus) using Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior - Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw ability lets you treat ranged attacks as melee

Round 1
Roll for initiative. If you're using Motivate Dexterity, you have an initiative bonus of +26 (+10 Dex, +6 Int, +6 Cha, +4 Imp. Init). So let's assume you win, since you probably will (they need a +5 modifier just to tie you on a 20 vs 1).
Another 10 ranged touch attacks, thanks to Master Thrower's Weak Spot. If their flat-footed touch AC is less than 14 (not unreasonable, especially since they don't know you're there and therefore don't have all their buffs up). you can power attack for full and hit on a 2. This gives you 10 attacks for 1d3 + 5d6 (Invisible Blade sneak attack) + 50 (Combat Rhythm) + 38 (Power Attack). If all hit (about a 77% chance), that's an average of 1075 damage. If they're somehow not dead yet, you get to make a trip attempt with each successful attack at +26 (Dex+Int+Cha+4).

Round 2
Hopefully it doesn't last this long. If it does, repeat previous step, but without the Cunning Surge (no more Inspiration) or Combat Rhythm (one of you won't survive for a third round, so it'd be a waste).
Foresight+Greater Celerity+Time Stop
Forsight allows him to act in the surprise round, and isn't flat footed for sneak attacks. Greater Celerity allows him to, you know, win.
Also if you do a full attack you can't hide afterwards.

Although I have no clue what bloodstorm blade does. Or even the book O.o


If they somehow manage to get a spell off, you have defenses. Greater Invisibility and hide, naturally, are going to make it hard to target you, and you have spell resistance 15+level. And since you have immunity to acid, a good number of conjurations are useless against you.

Have you seen a level 20 mage without arcane sight + true seeing on 24/7?
Lots of ways around SR and immunity to acid. Since all he has to do is live until tommorrow to take care of you the next day he should be fine.

Wolfpack
2008-09-24, 12:43 AM
Surprise Round
10 ranged touch attacks (4 base +1 from Cunning Surge x2 from Palm Throw) at +31 (+19 BAB, +10 Dex, +1 Size, +1 Weapon Focus) using Combat Rhythm from Stormguard Warrior - Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw ability lets you treat ranged attacks as melee

Primary problem with your build: Surprise round is a standard action only, so no full attack, so you actually only get one single attack. Maybe two or three if you burn Inspiration.

Secondary problem: Any caster worth a damn that will have true-seeing, or blindsight up all the time, also the usual Foresight stuff for your "surprise round" and of course, he's flying and invisible too, so you never even found him.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 12:48 AM
The important thing is to have an item that activates Anti-Magic Field and some Scrolls of Timestop, or be a Cleric with the Trickery and Magic domains. You need to cast Timestop outside of the Wizard's True Seeing range. Use the RUN option to get to the Wizard, and then UMD/cast the AMF. Timestop ends, and you're next to the wizard, and he cant cast. He is then screwed. Stand Still and Combat Reflexes means he can't get away at all., and there's no way you're missing a Wizard in an AMF. He's probably only got like 14 AC max unless he has a chain shirt in which case he *might* have 18 AC.

Proceed to full-attack the Wizard until he dies. Or Grapple the Wizard until he dies.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 12:51 AM
Primary problem with your build: Surprise round is a standard action only, so no full attack, so you actually only get one single attack. Maybe two or three if you burn Inspiration.

Secondary problem: Any caster worth a damn that will have true-seeing, or blindsight up all the time, also the usual Foresight stuff for your "surprise round" and of course, he's flying and invisible too, so you never even found him.

You'll definitely want Darkstalker to counter Blind-sight. Foresight won't do much if the wizard doesn't know *who* is going to attack him. Lots of places to hide from more than 120 feet away. Also, if you are a cleric,you can have Invisibility Purge. What's the wizard going to do? Cast Timestop every time he encounters somebody with an Invis Purge?

Chronos
2008-09-24, 01:12 AM
As far as allowing casters, I'd consider anything to be within the spirit of the competition, as long as it's not using arcane casting for its primary abilities. A few levels to pick up a particular spell which complements other abilities seems fine by me. Any amount of divine casting, psionics, or alternate magic systems likewise seems fine.

I also think that we have to accept that there's a certain level of cheese on the enemy wizard's part about which we can't really do anything. It might be best to just assume that Celerity and its variants aren't in play (unless you can beat that, too, and want to show off).


And I don't think I'll have the time to come up with an entry for this one, but I will try to give advice where I can.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 01:39 AM
Again, against Celerity/Timestop/Foresight, you just need Timestop and Anti-magic-field yourself, and you're mostly set.

Talic
2008-09-24, 01:57 AM
You'll definitely want Darkstalker to counter Blind-sight. Foresight won't do much if the wizard doesn't know *who* is going to attack him. Lots of places to hide from more than 120 feet away. Also, if you are a cleric,you can have Invisibility Purge. What's the wizard going to do? Cast Timestop every time he encounters somebody with an Invis Purge?

Celerity is an immediate action. Thus it can be taken at any time, and interrupts other actions. If he sees something happening that he doesn't like, or something happens that he doesn't like, he can interrupt it with a spell. Namely Time Stop.

So, he sees someone hiding near him, casting a spell that he identifies as hostile, time stop. He sees someone raising a bow to fire at him, same thing.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-09-24, 02:12 AM
The only way to stop a prepared arcanist is another arcanist, at least if you want to kill him. Assuming said Arcanist has Foresight, Celerity and a widened AMF that excludes only him via mastery of shaping, there is NO way to reach him;

Say you got timestop and AMF yourself via scrolls. You can never get close enough to cast the thing because you can't enter the mage's own AMF under a time stop. If you cast it and then try to enter, the mage casts Twinned Celerity and unloads a few orbs, turning you into paste.

Say you want to sneak attack him. His own buffs, including foresight, still work so you can't.

Say you want to meele the mage and you somehow get close enough. You're standing in his AMF while he's not. Twinned Celerity, put up a Prismatic Sphere and a Cloudkill and teleport away. Now you're in a sphere you can't get out of and the cloudkill kills you.

Ganurath
2008-09-24, 02:19 AM
Mage Slayer: Fist of Order

The concept behind the competition is simple: Be the best at killing Arcanists. The fact that you're all assuming that it'll be L20 vs L20 utterly blows my mind. So, level by level, my Aasimar is going to literal kick Arcanists in the teeth.

Level One: Monk1//Aasimar LA
Feats: Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike
Skills: Max Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Spot, Listen
Other: Decisive Strike varient (PHBII)
The build uses Cha as a dump stat and Int as a minimum +1, which leaves 24 points to divide amone 4 stats. Basic math says 14 to each with a racial +2 to Wis, but if you're willing to take a hit to Con and Dex you can get your Str up to 16. Personally, I don't think that that particular +1 is worth the effort. Anyhow, the concept is simple: Sneak up on the arcanist, then show them what for with a combo of Stunning Fist and Decisive Strike.

Level Two: Monk2//Aasimar LA/Fighter1
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Spot, Listen
Now, the feat choice here may seem odd, but it'll make sense at the next level. Here, we're getting +1 to hit, a nice boost to HD, and... evasion! We all know all the good that does for you. Stay the course with the sneaky up and smash face, the only difference is that now you get to smash face whenever they try to run away, even if they get distractions like their familiar to eat your AoOs.

Level Three: Monk3//Aasimar LA/Fighter2
Feats: Open Minded, Weapon Focus (Siangham)
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, +4 Knowledge (arcana), +2 Spellcraft
Some of you may have noticed where I'm headed, on multiple fronts. This build is now facing 2nd level spells, which is bad... Until you consider that such spells don't do much against mundane stealth, and the Arcanist's saving throw against a Stunning Fist is still horrible next to all the boosts invested in it back at Level One.

Level Four: Monk4//Aasimar LA/Fighter3
Feats: Nothing new this time. Who'd have thought?
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Spellcraft
Other: +1 Wis
Huzzah, we're 2 BAB away from our target prestige class, and just in time for those spontaneous casters to get their 2nd level spells. In response, our saving throws have gone up, along with our unarmed damage... Not that that matters if you've gotten an enchanted siangham at this point. Why siangham? I find it aesthetically fitting next to Decisive Strike. The penalty for which goes down next level, I should note.

Level Five: Monk5//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade1
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Nimble Charge Skill Trick
A slight boost to AC, +2 to hit between BAB and the reduction on Decisive Strike, and the ability to bypass whatever rough terrain an Arcanist may create, either directly or indirectly. Nobody seems to notice the enviromental damage fireball inflicts, do they? Speaking of, prep casters have 3rd level spells now. That's okay, though, since we're getting +2 versus enchantments, +6 to Fort and Ref, +7 to Will, and evasion. Wait, why the Hexblade level? The most immediate reason is the off chance of giving the Arcanist -2 to their saves against the Stunning Fist with a curse. The main reason, though, is...

Level 6: Monk6//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2
Feats: Mage Slayer, Improved Trip
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Listen
...Mettle. We are now looking at some potent saving throws in general, some potent violence once the Decisive Strike hits the fan, and have robbed the target of the ability to cast defensively. Score. Invisibility and concealment may be an issue, but with only 3rd level spells Arcanists can't really look for pointy things in their dinner yet. With the added bonus of being able to open combat up by making an unarmed trip against the Arcanist on the charge, thwarting casting and making it easier to Decisive Stun them the following round.

Level 7: Monk 7//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer1
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Point it Out
Other: Weapon Bond to Siangham
Boosted saves like nuts, +1d6 against spellcasters (assuming your siangham isn't Magebane yet, which is just common sense,) and limited healing for the off chance you fail your Reflex save. Just in time for 4th level spells, too. It's enough to scry on the target, but trying gives a +5 on the save, which is currently... +9 before said bonus, which means +14 against the scry, or +19 if they're only scrying "someone who's trying to kill me." Against a DC of 14+their casting ability, I like those odds.

Level 8: Monk 8//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer2
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Listen
Other: +1 Wisdom
Mind over magic. One use is generally enough to turn the short battle in your favor. If you don't have the means to fly with magic items by now, there is something horribly wrong with you. Anyhow, yeah... Same strategy of Tripping Charge followed by Decisive Stunning Siangham.

Level 9: Monk 9//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer3
Feats: Pierce Magical Protection
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Clarity of Vision
The combination of auravision and Clarity of Vision allows you to bypass whatever stealth measures they have set up, and Pierce Magical Protection... I will sing its praises from the rooftop. This is a power spike level, no question about it. Oh, and improved evasion is always fun, almost as much as the damage doubling Decisive Strike not having a penalty to hit.

Level 10: Monk 10//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer4
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Listen
As if divinations targetting you didn't have a hard enough time already. The further I go, the more I wonder about why this is the first entry using this PrC.

Level 11: Monk 11//Aasimar LA/Fighter3/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer5
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Knowledge (arcana)
Screw still mind, see if you can retrain out of it in favor of the Prayerful Meditation varient in Complete Champion. The +2 bonus is rather meaningless since you now have undisputed immunity to the spells it covers, along with a fair chunk of the illusion school. Dare I say another power spike? We're getting two swings with Decisive Strike now, so how about YES.

Level 12: Monk 12//Aasimar LA/Fighter4/Hexblade2/Occult Slayer5
Feats: Blind-Fight, Pierce Magical Concealment
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Spot the Weak Point
Other: +1 Wisdom
Either I'm getting lighthanded in dishing out these power spikes, or killing arcanists is really easy when you put your mind to it. If nothing else, the people wondering why I went Fighter3/Hexblade2 earlier instead of Fighter2/Hexblade3 should figure it out by now. I'm planning ahead!

Level 13: Monk 13//Aasimar LA/Fighter4/Hexblade3/Occult Slayer5
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Listen
Oh, hey, this is where I get Mettle. A bit of a late investment, but worthwhile nonetheless. Oh, and now there's Diamond Soul for an SR of 23 to go with those 13+ saving throws. Good thing, too, with 7th level spells on the way.

Level 14: Monk 13//Aasimar LA/Fighter4/Hexblade4/Occult Slayer5
Feats: None.
Skills: +1 Hide, Move Silently, Spot, +2 Collector of Stories
Other: Dark Companion (PHBII)
Another -2 to the saves against Stunning Fist is always nice, especially since it can draw fire from your target with a casting action to dispel it. See, I screwed up the Mettle level for a reason, I plan ahead.

But only to a degree. I'll edit in the final eight six after some sleep. I'm thinking a dip in Spellthief for a level or two to pick up Ascetic Rogue and Staggering Strike and another saving throw booster... Anybody know any decent Monk PrCs for Caster Blasting?

lord_khaine
2008-09-24, 06:32 AM
i have polished my build to a psion10/slayer10//swordsage19/shadowdancer1

shadowdancer/swordsage will give the stealth to sneak up on a wizard with darkstalker.

psion will let the slayer use fission to create a double, that will attack first and draw the fire from the wizard using some fitting maneuver.

then after celerity has been used, then the real slayer can use temporal acceleration to get up besides his prey and activate antimagic field, whereafter when time resumes again, he can slice the wizard up with Time stand still and a lot of power attack.

the psion side will also give metafaculty, as well as psionic traveling power, to find and cach the wizard, as well as true seeing to see past any annoying illusions.

dspeyer
2008-09-24, 10:11 AM
Lu-Tze the Humble
Race: Phrenic Gnome
Initial stats: STR: 6 DEX: 8 CON: 16 INT: 16 WIS: 18 CHA: 18
Classes: druid 10 / master of many forms 2 / contemplative 8 // la 2 / ninja 3 / spymaster 7 / momf 8
Contemplative domain: Mind
Playable from: 5 (until you get wild shape, those physical stats are crippling -- no wonder you're so inclined to get into another body!)
Power break: 12 (deep cover)
Vital feats: Education (for contemplative), sudden still spell, sudden silent spell, mage slayer, natural spell

Even the mightiest wizards need someone: a merchant to sell spell components and bulk items not worth conjuring, a vizier to manage the mundane affairs of the domain, a bard to keep the public informed of how scary this wizard is (what's the fun in being terrifying if people don't know who to be terrified of?), a prostitute, a sycophant, or perhaps (as the name suggests), a simple sweeper to deal with the dust in the ivory tower. Lu-Tze becomes that person. He studies them in detail, observing as an unlit will'o'wisp and using detect thoughts at need. When he's ready, he kidnaps, interrogates, thought-probes and replaces them. Once he's in his new cover identity, no divination will detect him.

Once he reaches the unsuspecting target, he begins with a stilled silenced summon nature's ally. He runs away from the dangerous creature and hides, maintaining his cover, while the wizard expends his contingency and a few high-level offensive spells dealing with the threat. Lu-Tze then gets within a much larger creature's reach, transforms into that, and attacks or grapples.

Once the fight begins, Lu-Tze has several defenses. Firstly, no one can cast defensively against him, and being bitten by a dragon is quite distracting. Secondly, he has spell resistance 20+level from phrenic. Yes, there are ways around SR, but they're generally not the first choice, and there's no reason to suspect he has it until a spell fizzles. Also, he has all good saves (well, one point short on will, but wis is very high), decent hit points, and wis to ac.

If melee isn't enough, he has almost full druid casting to fall back on. And if that fails, he can psionically teleport to a safe place.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 10:19 AM
The only way to stop a prepared arcanist is another arcanist, at least if you want to kill him. Assuming said Arcanist has Foresight, Celerity and a widened AMF that excludes only him via mastery of shaping, there is NO way to reach him;

Say you got timestop and AMF yourself via scrolls. You can never get close enough to cast the thing because you can't enter the mage's own AMF under a time stop. If you cast it and then try to enter, the mage casts Twinned Celerity and unloads a few orbs, turning you into paste.

Say you want to sneak attack him. His own buffs, including foresight, still work so you can't.

Say you want to meele the mage and you somehow get close enough. You're standing in his AMF while he's not. Twinned Celerity, put up a Prismatic Sphere and a Cloudkill and teleport away. Now you're in a sphere you can't get out of and the cloudkill kills you.

You'll want to try to disjunction the AMF from far away...although you onlyhave one chance to do so as it's your domain slot. The trick is to not get seen at all by the caster so he can't identify your casting and can't identify you period.

BTW, AMF, doesn't block line of effect. Find a way to shrink yourself from Small to Tiny. You can now share a space with the Wizard. Cast Time Stop. Run *close* to the wizard, then UMD a Dimension Hopper so you can teleport 30ft as a move action. Teleport 30 ft THROUGH the AMF into the Wizard's space. Now, UMD a Froce Cage if you really want, but you can just skip to jumping onto the shoulders of the Wizard before casting AMF. Now, the Shrink Person ends thanks to AMF, and you're on top of the mage basically grappling him, and he's in the AMF. Even if you're not grappling him, you're next to the wizard and he's within your AMF. He is screwed.

Chronos
2008-09-24, 12:23 PM
dspeyer, be advised that you have ten levels of simultaneous prestige classes, for a bunch of cheese points.

lord_khaine, there are easier ways to get Hide in Plain Sight. I recommend either the Dark template from Tome of Magic (+1 LA, but that hardly matters under these rules) or three levels of Umbral Disciple from Magic of Incarnum (which benefits from, but does not need, a one-level dip in Incarnate first).

Prometheus
2008-09-24, 01:00 PM
Are these builds against a regular mage of a gestalt one? If it is a gestalt, should these builds be compared with the products of the last challenge or should it be assumed that the mages go for something that is more general, that might cover weaknesses like BAB, saves, or certain special abilities?

I'm not making a build, but some of these builds may depend on the answer.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-24, 04:17 PM
If he sees something happening that he doesn't like, or something happens that he doesn't like, he can interrupt it with a spell. Namely Time Stop.

Yes. Although it is not a given that every mage to be slain will be 17th level or higher. Which is to say, if some slayer at level 5-12 is capable of taking down equal-level mages, that's still quite the effort.

Wolfpack
2008-09-24, 04:39 PM
You'll definitely want Darkstalker to counter Blind-sight. Foresight won't do much if the wizard doesn't know *who* is going to attack him. Lots of places to hide from more than 120 feet away. Also, if you are a cleric,you can have Invisibility Purge. What's the wizard going to do? Cast Timestop every time he encounters somebody with an Invis Purge?

Did you miss the part where I was addressing a specific build, ad not some Schroedinger Mage Slayer with levels in everything.

1) Note the build I am addressing does not have Darkstalker.
2) Note the build has exactly 0 Cleric levels and no way of casting invisibility purge.
3) Note that the build actually requires invisibility to even be able to get anywhere ear the Wizard (even though it still can't because it has no way of finding the Wizard).
4) Note that Superior Invisibility ignores Invisibility Purge.

On a completely separate note. Darkstalker is stupid, and reduces the entire game to the following two questions:

1) Do you have mindsight?

2) If no, are you a Druid who is aware that you are being Darkstalked and therefore bought a competence item to listen?

Any game that involves Darkstalkers is just going to boil down to Darkstalker versus Persistent Superior Invisibility. Because anything that says:

I can stand directly adjacent to you and follow you around exactly five feat away until you go to sleep without you ever noticing me unless you have one specific feat, and telepathy, is a game where 99% of characters and 99.9% of every MM cease to actually have any effect on the game.


Yes. Although it is not a given that every mage to be slain will be 17th level or higher. Which is to say, if some slayer at level 5-12 is capable of taking down equal-level mages, that's still quite the effort.

I think that level 5-12 slayers will have difficulty using scrolls of Timestop to kill said mages though.

Of course, even level 20 builds can only afford so many scrolls of timestop.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 05:43 PM
Superior Invisibility itself is completely stupid, as is the feat Persistent Spell. Get rid of Persistent Spell and mages becomes somewhat easier to take down.

Wolfpack
2008-09-24, 05:55 PM
Superior Invisibility itself is completely stupid, as is the feat Persistent Spell. Get rid of Persistent Spell and mages becomes somewhat easier to take down.

I just said that. My point is that Darkstalker does the exact same thing as Persistent Superior invisibility.

If you allow one, then only characters with one or the other actually continue to matter to the campaign. If you don't allow either, then all sorts of other people ca keep playing. If you only allow one, then why is it okay for one character to win D&D and not the other?

If you can beat 99% of every MM by saying, "Hey Rogue, walk up to it and full attack with your eight attacks that either strength damage it or SA it or it's an ooze. (seriously, oozes are the only things that a well built rogue can't SA or Strength damage and oozes are more traps then actual opponents) then the game is just as pointless as if Cindy where a character.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 06:51 PM
I just said that. My point is that Darkstalker does the exact same thing as Persistent Superior invisibility.

If you allow one, then only characters with one or the other actually continue to matter to the campaign. If you don't allow either, then all sorts of other people ca keep playing. If you only allow one, then why is it okay for one character to win D&D and not the other?

If you can beat 99% of every MM by saying, "Hey Rogue, walk up to it and full attack with your eight attacks that either strength damage it or SA it or it's an ooze. (seriously, oozes are the only things that a well built rogue can't SA or Strength damage and oozes are more traps then actual opponents) then the game is just as pointless as if Cindy where a character.

Wolkpack, you are esceptionally well-versed for someone who joined less than a month ago. You know of the Tippy-verses and Cindys! But yes, in my games, I probably will not allow Foresight. And I sometimes ban Celerity. I definitely ban Superior Invisibility.

Maybe we mod Darkstalker so that things trying to detect the rogue using things other than sight or sound (so if they're using Blindsight, Tremorsense, etc) get a +10 or +20 on their Spot/Listen check to notice?

Wolfpack
2008-09-24, 07:04 PM
Wolkpack, you are esceptionally well-versed for someone who joined less than a month ago. You know of the Tippy-verses and Cindys! But yes, in my games, I probably will not allow Foresight. And I sometimes ban Celerity. I definitely ban Superior Invisibility.

Maybe we mod Darkstalker so that things trying to detect the rogue using things other than sight or sound (so if they're using Blindsight, Tremorsense, etc) get a +10 or +20 on their Spot/Listen check to notice?

1) Not so sure about Tippy verses, though given Tippy, I can guess. But I do know about Cindy.

2) That would be acceptable in some ways for some PCs, but honestly, bad idea. The problem is that skill checks are always pushed off the RNG. It's just too easy to do so.

Take a level 14 Dark Whispergnome Rogue, they can have a check of 17ranks + 12 racial + 10-30 competence item + 9 Dex.

That's + 48-68. Now maybe +20 onto a normal PCs check is one thing. And +10 onto a Dragon might even be good enough to detect it occasionally (might need a competence item).

But what about Oozes? They have no Int score, and thus no skill points. So even with a +20, they are still looking at 1d20+25 at best. They just can't win. And the same goes for every creature that can't afford to rank up spot and listen, which is a lot of classes, and mostly every monster that isn't an outsider or dragon.

EDIT: Oh look, I forgot the size bonus. Even better. And yes, listen will usually be an easier check to make, and allowing something with blindsight to pinpoint instead of detect presence with a listen check makes sense, but you still have to cross of half the MM. And honestly, before Darkstalker Hide checks with HiPS were a problem too, it was just that you had a lot of ways of ignoring their checks.

Making something as fundamental as: "Can you attack me?" based on a skill check is a bad idea (the same with the CL check against a Wizard's Sup Invis) because of course he's going to push you off the RNG as much as possible.

Frosty
2008-09-24, 07:07 PM
Well the problem is Sneaking is a big part of some Rogue powers. The fact that at higher levels everyone and their mother have some sort of Blindsense/sight etc really sucks for Rogues. I want Sneaking to be viable at high levels without it being the win button, although why WoTC let Wizards have win buttons and not Rogues is beyond me.

See, as the DM, I also won't let someone's hide/MS modifier go above a certain amount. It'd be capped no matter what. Rule 0 for goodness!

Fwee, time to go home, and then look up whether my level 8 Succubus can afford a Holy Avenger.

monty
2008-09-24, 10:18 PM
All right, I made some significant revisions. I think I covered all the problems, but I probably didn't.

Wolfpack
2008-09-24, 10:56 PM
All right, I made some significant revisions. I think I covered all the problems, but I probably didn't.

1) Scrolls of Mindblank, Superior Invisibility, and Greater Teleport cost a lot of money. You won't be able to do this many times.

2) So you use Craft Contingency (IE cheese that makes me cry) and scrolls to do everything that a level 20 Commoner using 25 PB couldn't do just as well.

Any Warlock 12/Commoner 8 is equally as good at mage slaying as you.

3) How did you find the Mage?

4) How well can you deal with a Wizard with Contingencies, ad Superior Invisibility ad Mind Blank? If he can't see you then you can't see him.

Furthermore, If he has a series of crafted Contingencies against someone Disjunctioning him?

Contingency: If a Disjunction would affect me, teleport me 100ft straight up." Is a valid use of the Contingency spell, not even bringing his 40 Contingent spells into it.

dspeyer
2008-09-24, 11:18 PM
dspeyer, be advised that you have ten levels of simultaneous prestige classes, for a bunch of cheese points.

Point. Multi-prestiging doesn't strike me as egregious cheese, but I did use a lot of it. If I just made the whole left side druid, I would lose the momf capstones (gargantuan, dragon, and immunity to hostile polymorphing) and the mind domain. All are useful but none are vital.

I could recoup the mental powers by mixing in beguiler. That would also gain me bluff and related skills at the high levels, but cost full druid casting. It seems very strange to give up 9th level spells for first level, even though I don't have any immediate plans for my druid casting.

I wonder if baleful polymorph / charm animal / speak with animals would be an effective druidic interrogation strategy. It's either that or size bonuses to intimidate checks.

monty
2008-09-24, 11:25 PM
1) Scrolls of Mindblank, Superior Invisibility, and Greater Teleport cost a lot of money. You won't be able to do this many times.

2) So you use Craft Contingency (IE cheese that makes me cry) and scrolls to do everything that a level 20 Commoner using 25 PB couldn't do just as well.

Any Warlock 12/Commoner 8 is equally as good at mage slaying as you.

3) How did you find the Mage?

4) How well can you deal with a Wizard with Contingencies, ad Superior Invisibility ad Mind Blank? If he can't see you then you can't see him.

Furthermore, If he has a series of crafted Contingencies against someone Disjunctioning him?

Contingency: If a Disjunction would affect me, teleport me 100ft straight up." Is a valid use of the Contingency spell, not even bringing his 40 Contingent spells into it.

1. When I kill a mage, I get their stuff. High level mages have lots of stuff. So I'll be making a lot of money anyway, or I'll be dead.

2. A commoner can't easily keep them from getting away afterwards. The trip-lock is a significant part of the build.

3. Like I said, do your research first. You want to have the fight on your terms, not the mage's.

4. Again, fight on your terms. Keep stalking him until you can catch him "off guard." I'm sure it's possible. All you need is one round of semi-weakness.

Then put another contingency on; you still have 18 left. Make the trigger "when <name> activates a contigency effect." Then it comes down to who wins initiative, just like a caster fight. And guess who has a higher initiative modifier? Hint: probably not the wizard.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 12:04 AM
Thisis why most mage-slaying strategies involve ANti-Magic Fields. Contingencies don't matter anymore.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 12:40 AM
2. A commoner can't easily keep them from getting away afterwards. The trip-lock is a significant part of the build.

A Commoner can prioritize Str, take improved grapple and aberrant blood and initiate a grapple, all that's needed to beat a Wizard within 5ft of you in an AMF.


3. Like I said, do your research first. You want to have the fight on your terms, not the mage's.

No. You can't. You can't just declare that you found him when he travels by teleportation unless you also have teleportation.

Finding someone you are looking for is the hardest part of killing them.


4. Again, fight on your terms. Keep stalking him until you can catch him "off guard." I'm sure it's possible. All you need is one round of semi-weakness.

How are you following him when you can't see him and you have no idea where he is? Either he can see you despite your Superior Invisibility (by the way, he can since True Seeing is a CL check against it, and he has a higher CL) and you can't follow him and you fight as soon as you see him. Or you can't see him because of his Superior Invisibility, and so you never even know he's there, much less if he was in a position of weakness.


Then put another contingency on; you still have 18 left. Make the trigger "when <name> activates a contigency effect." Then it comes down to who wins initiative, just like a caster fight. And guess who has a higher initiative modifier? Hint: probably not the wizard.

1) And of course he probably has a Contingency "If a contingency activates with me as part of it's activation condition, teleport me home." And he has more Contingencies then you because none of his are a Disjunction. And he has the spell.

2) Who has Higher Init? Hint: Probably the Wizard.


Thisis why most mage-slaying strategies involve ANti-Magic Fields. Contingencies don't matter anymore.

The hard part is getting them into an AMF.

"If an AMF would include me in it's area teleport me 200ft straight up." is also a valid contingency.

And if you expend your action to activate the AMF, well then he just uses his turn to 5ft step, cast Wall of Force, and then he has all his buffs again, so he just flies away/teleports away.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 01:36 AM
True, but again, Contingencies don't activate within Timestop, so you have to reach the caster while within your Timestop. Shaping the AMF just means the mage-killer must also use Dimension Hopper or however that's spelled from Complete Mage to be able to teleport as a move action.

The truly hard part is finding the mage. The rest isn't that hard really.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 01:50 AM
True, but again, Contingencies don't activate within Timestop, so you have to reach the caster while within your Timestop. Shaping the AMF just means the mage-killer must also use Dimension Hopper or however that's spelled from Complete Mage to be able to teleport as a move action.

The truly hard part is finding the mage. The rest isn't that hard really.

1) What makes you think a Time Stop prevents a Contingency from activating? It's accelerated time, but if a contingency can go off between the casting of a spell and it having an effect on you, there is no reason to believe that it would not also be able to go off when a spell is cast in a Time Stop.

2) You can't cast AMF while you are in a Time Stop.

3) Dimensional Jump spells are swift actions. But I don't see why any particular action on your part would limit him to using them instead of his excess standard actions, or his move action to fly upward.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 01:54 AM
1) What makes you think a Time Stop prevents a Contingency from activating? It's accelerated time, but if a contingency can go off between the casting of a spell and it having an effect on you, there is no reason to believe that it would not also be able to go off when a spell is cast in a Time Stop.

2) You can't cast AMF while you are in a Time Stop.

3) Dimensional Jump spells are swift actions. But I don't see why any particular action on your part would limit him to using them instead of his excess standard actions, or his move action to fly upward.

That's just how I rule things. Contingency doesn't work while someone else is doing stuff near you in a Timestop. And sure you can cast AMF in a Timestop. It'd just end the Timestop immediately. Based on these interpretations (which is as valid as yours), it's perfectly feasible to defeat a wizard once you find the bastard.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 02:27 AM
That's just how I rule things. Contingency doesn't work while someone else is doing stuff near you in a Timestop. And sure you can cast AMF in a Timestop. It'd just end the Timestop immediately. Based on these interpretations (which is as valid as yours), it's perfectly feasible to defeat a wizard once you find the bastard.

No, they really aren't just as valid as mine. In fact, your Time Stop restriction is much less valid then my interpretation and less valid then the interpretation that Contingency cannot go off between the casting of a spell and it's effect.

Also: "You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

If you activate an AMF while in a Time Stop, then you would be in an AMF while under the effect of Time Stop. How did you get there? By entering the AMF while under the effect of Time Stop.

You can't do it. That's the point. Time Stop and AMF are never able to interact in any way, they are mutually exclusive.

You could ready an action to AMF after the Time Stop ends, but it is then the Wizard's turn and he merely 5ft steps, casts Wall of Force, and then uses his Shapechange to change into a Choker, and teleports away (or swift action teleports away, or as a free action activates Gem Jump and escapes, or flies upward 100ft and summons a Gargantuan Fiendish Centipede with SR high enough that it auto ignores your AMF and grapples you to death.)

monty
2008-09-25, 10:26 AM
A Commoner can prioritize Str, take improved grapple and aberrant blood and initiate a grapple, all that's needed to beat a Wizard within 5ft of you in an AMF.

It's considerably more likely that you'll fail a grapple check than that I'll fail two trips. How many rounds will it take your commoner to kill the wizard without magic items? That leaves a big window of possibility for his escape/your death/other nastiness. Also, how is your commoner casting AMF in the first place?


No. You can't. You can't just declare that you found him when he travels by teleportation unless you also have teleportation.

Finding someone you are looking for is the hardest part of killing them.

Care to explain how any of these other builds are supposed to solve that problem, then? I never said it was going to be easy.


How are you following him when you can't see him and you have no idea where he is? Either he can see you despite your Superior Invisibility (by the way, he can since True Seeing is a CL check against it, and he has a higher CL) and you can't follow him and you fight as soon as you see him. Or you can't see him because of his Superior Invisibility, and so you never even know he's there, much less if he was in a position of weakness.

See previous answer.


1) And of course he probably has a Contingency "If a contingency activates with me as part of it's activation condition, teleport me home." And he has more Contingencies then you because none of his are a Disjunction. And he has the spell.

I have a contingency "when another contingency is activated"; so does he. Which one is resolved first?


2) Who has Higher Init? Hint: Probably the Wizard.

Care to explain that one?

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 11:07 AM
It's considerably more likely that you'll fail a grapple check than that I'll fail two trips. How many rounds will it take your commoner to kill the wizard without magic items? That leaves a big window of possibility for his escape/your death/other nastiness. Also, how is your commoner casting AMF in the first place?

Well as I said, the Warlock 12/Commoner 8 has a 2 point BAB advantage on the Wizard, or more if the Wizard PrCed. He is an Orc with 18 base Str. And all levels put into Str, and a +5 Tome of Str. So his grapple score inside an AMF is +12 BAB + 11 Str +4 Improved Grapple +2 Aberrant Blood = +29.

Of course the straight Commoner has a chance to lose to the 8 str Wizard who never PrCed. But only if the Wizard rolls a 20 and the Commoner rolls a 1. And he'd have to do that twice in a row, since he'd be pinned.

Compare that to a Wizard with 6-8 strength and ten BAB. Hey look, it is totally impossible for him to lose.

Not to mention the various ways a wizard could have lower scores: Small race, PrCs reducing BAB.

The Wizard could also use Escape Artist, which may or may not be higher, depending on if he ranked it up cross class (unlikely) but since that takes a standard action, he still can't escape since the Commoner would just re-pin him with the first attack and then damage him with the second.


Care to explain how any of these other builds are supposed to solve that problem, then? I never said it was going to be easy.

Well the only other build I've seen that has a serious answer is the one that apparently poses as spell component merchants, has access to divinations, and can teleport. And the other Psionic build that can teleport, and has access to Metafaculty and the time spying power.


See previous answer.

Mostly, they aren't, but the at least invested resources into trying, instead of spending it all trying to prove that they can kill a Wizard in an AMF.

All I'm saying is you optimized a entire gestalt build around something that any Commoner can do (kill a Wizard in an AMF). And then used UMDed scrolls and magic items to accomplish the following actions:

1) Find the Wizard (somehow).
2) Prevent the Wizard from seeing you, and by extension, killing you.
3) Reach the Wizard.
4) Activate AMF

I think you should probably devote some class features to doing 1-3, since:

5) Kill a Wizard in an AMF.

Is so easy a Commoner 20 can do it.

I mean, a Warlock 12/Commoner 8 has the exact same success you do. There is no possible situation that such a character would fail and you would succeed.


I have a contingency "when another contingency is activated"; so does he. Which one is resolved first?

They both occur at the same time, but he teleports away before your spell affects him. These contingencies are effectively Abrupt Jaunts, but teleporting further. So all yours are wasted.


Care to explain that one?

Well since this is all happening before he has been Disjunctioned or AMFed, he has all his buffs active.

Including being Shapechanged into a Creature with higher Dex then you, and maybe a familiar, and quite possibly one of the two feats he has access to that provide bonuses to Init greater then yours, and of course he can use the Nerveskitter spell.

So basically, He's got a higher dex, and a possible +26 that he could have. And you've got a lower Dex and +4.

lord_khaine
2008-09-25, 12:33 PM
lord_khaine, there are easier ways to get Hide in Plain Sight. I recommend either the Dark template from Tome of Magic (+1 LA, but that hardly matters under these rules) or three levels of Umbral Disciple from Magic of Incarnum (which benefits from, but does not need, a one-level dip in Incarnate first).

ahh thnx, i just though Hide in Plain sight might be nececary against the highest grades of cheese, so i grapped the first souce of it i could think of.

also i were courious, what solution have the rest of you found to try and combat greater celerity?

monty
2008-09-25, 01:59 PM
Well since this is all happening before he has been Disjunctioned or AMFed, he has all his buffs active.

Including being Shapechanged into a Creature with higher Dex then you, and maybe a familiar, and quite possibly one of the two feats he has access to that provide bonuses to Init greater then yours, and of course he can use the Nerveskitter spell.

So basically, He's got a higher dex, and a possible +26 that he could have. And you've got a lower Dex and +4.

So he's got 26+Dex. I can beat that, easy. With a +5 Manual of Quickness of Action, +4 Tome of Clear Thought, +4 Tome of Leadership and Influence, +6 Gloves of Dexterity, +6 Headband of Intellect, and +6 Cloak of Charisma, I have 44 Dex, 30 Int, and 34 Cha. That still leaves me with almost 300,000 of my WBL for scrolls and whatnot, and it makes my initiative modifier 17+10+12+4=43, so he needs to have +17 from Dex just to match it, and that's assuming he's optimizing for initiative, which isn't always the case (a familiar is a huge liability, every initiative feat isn't a metamagic feat, etc.). Oh yeah, there's no reason I can't have Nerveskitter too. Make that +22. Can he shapechange into a form with 54 Dex? And since you're saying a commoner can do it better, what's your initiative modifier?


Anyway, it seems we can't agree on the grappling/UMD stuff, so I'll pose a different problem. How does your hypothetical commoner do against enemies below level 17? From about level 10 on, I can take out most unaware enemies in one round, and I'm not too bad before that. Can you pose a serious threat without cheese?

Siegel
2008-09-25, 02:39 PM
Can a beholder take part in this challenge ? Anti-Magic Eyeray and things...

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 04:19 PM
So he's got 26+Dex. I can beat that, easy. With a +5 Manual of Quickness of Action, +4 Tome of Clear Thought, +4 Tome of Leadership and Influence, +6 Gloves of Dexterity, +6 Headband of Intellect, and +6 Cloak of Charisma, I have 44 Dex, 30 Int, and 34 Cha. That still leaves me with almost 300,000 of my WBL for scrolls and whatnot, and it makes my initiative modifier 17+10+12+4=43, so he needs to have +17 from Dex just to match it, and that's assuming he's optimizing for initiative, which isn't always the case (a familiar is a huge liability, every initiative feat isn't a metamagic feat, etc.). Oh yeah, there's no reason I can't have Nerveskitter too. Make that +22. Can he shapechange into a form with 54 Dex? And since you're saying a commoner can do it better, what's your initiative modifier?

1) No you can't have Nerveskitter, because it's an free action cast not on your turn. You can't UMD it.

2) So you spend 460,000gp on stat boosters alone in order to play catch up?

3) No, he can shapechange into a form with 52 Dex, which thanks to you not being able to use Nerveskitter puts him ahead.

4) He can also use his Moment of Prescience.

5) The thing you are missing is that no matter who wins Init, all the contingencies go off simultaneously and he is teleported outside of your Disjunction.


Anyway, it seems we can't agree on the grappling/UMD stuff, so I'll pose a different problem. How does your hypothetical commoner do against enemies below level 17? From about level 10 on, I can take out most unaware enemies in one round, and I'm not too bad before that. Can you pose a serious threat without cheese?

So you are better at killing non-mages. And equal at killing mages to a non-gestalt commoner. This proves you are a good Mage killer how exactly?

dspeyer
2008-09-25, 07:05 PM
also i were courious, what solution have the rest of you found to try and combat greater celerity?

I can't find celerity (greater or otherwise) in the spell compendium, but I roughly recall it's used to act immediately without waiting for initiative.

I figure that's what summoning spells are for. A 20th level druid can spontaneously summon at least 12 tyrannosaurs a day. How many times will a 20th level wizard prepare celerity?

Frosty
2008-09-25, 07:29 PM
No, they really aren't just as valid as mine. In fact, your Time Stop restriction is much less valid then my interpretation and less valid then the interpretation that Contingency cannot go off between the casting of a spell and it's effect.

Also: "You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop."

If you activate an AMF while in a Time Stop, then you would be in an AMF while under the effect of Time Stop. How did you get there? By entering the AMF while under the effect of Time Stop.

You can't do it. That's the point. Time Stop and AMF are never able to interact in any way, they are mutually exclusive.

You could ready an action to AMF after the Time Stop ends, but it is then the Wizard's turn and he merely 5ft steps, casts Wall of Force, and then uses his Shapechange to change into a Choker, and teleports away (or swift action teleports away, or as a free action activates Gem Jump and escapes, or flies upward 100ft and summons a Gargantuan Fiendish Centipede with SR high enough that it auto ignores your AMF and grapples you to death.)


Nope. You can't enter a zone, but this one just sor tof appears on you when you cast it, so it's perfectly valid. Besides, the Wizard's 5-ft step won't be enough. You've got *reach* You can also Widen your AMF too if you want.

monty
2008-09-25, 08:59 PM
1) No you can't have Nerveskitter, because it's an free action cast not on your turn. You can't UMD it.

Who said anything about UMD? I have one first-level spell from Factotum, and I'm not using it for anything else. Also, it's an immediate action, not free.


2) So you spend 460,000gp on stat boosters alone in order to play catch up?

What else am I going to spend it on? The only other permanent item I need is a Belt of Battle, and scrolls and contingencies aren't going to use up all the rest.


4) He can also use his Moment of Prescience.

So can I.


5) The thing you are missing is that no matter who wins Init, all the contingencies go off simultaneously and he is teleported outside of your Disjunction.

Since they go off at the same time, the teleport is suppressed. There is no reason the teleport action should be resolved before the AMF can affect it.


So you are better at killing non-mages. And equal at killing mages to a non-gestalt commoner. This proves you are a good Mage killer how exactly?

I never said that. You seem to have interpreted my post a little too loosely. Also, you never answered my question. How does your commoner do against, say a 10th level wizard?

weenie
2008-09-26, 06:58 AM
So, are full caster classes legal for this competition or not? In case they are here's what I came up with:

Duskblade 20 // Wizard 10 / Master specialist(abjuration) 10

Here's how it goes:

1) Find out mage's location
2) Cast Timestop
3) Teleport near mage
4) Full attack channel the mage with an AMF(Major school esoterica)

From here on the mage is completely at your mercy. He can't cast(AMF), can't run(dimension hop), can't fight(well, he could try, but his magic items won't work and arcane strike still works in an AMF).

You could replace the Duskblade side with virtually anything, this is just my favorite gestalt build.. :smallsmile:

monty
2008-09-26, 10:47 AM
Personally, I really think that violates the spirit of the competition, killing a mage with another mage. Also, your build has the same problem most of them have: it doesn't account for contingencies.

weenie
2008-09-26, 01:20 PM
Do contigencies also work under time stop?

monty
2008-09-26, 02:12 PM
It doesn't matter. You can't attack during Time Stop, and as soon as it ends, they'd go off anyway.

weenie
2008-09-26, 02:34 PM
Oh. Damn, I always thought you could cast spells on others during time stop if they had a duration greater than instantaneous.. in that case never mind my build I guess.

monty
2008-09-27, 01:27 AM
I'd like to suggest more categories to judge on for this. Since it seems difficult, if not impossible, to even stand a chance against a high level mage without using magic yourself, I think we should focus more on effectiveness at all levels. Also, out-of-combat/nonmagical combat ability should be taken into account to at least some extent, since you presumably do something other than kill mages for a significant part of your life.

lord_khaine
2008-09-27, 05:03 AM
Quote:
4) He can also use his Moment of Prescience.

So can I.


are we talking about the same Moment of precience (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#moment-of-prescience) here? because the standard one doesnt mention anything about being used in a initiative check.


I'd like to suggest more categories to judge on for this. Since it seems difficult, if not impossible, to even stand a chance against a high level mage without using magic yourself, I think we should focus more on effectiveness at all levels. Also, out-of-combat/nonmagical combat ability should be taken into account to at least some extent, since you presumably do something other than kill mages for a significant part of your life.

wasnt when you would start being effective part of the original judging criteria?

mostlyharmful
2008-09-27, 07:45 AM
are we talking about the same Moment of precience (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsMtoO.html#moment-of-prescience) here? because the standard one doesnt mention anything about being used in a initiative check.

Oppossed Dex check. Some DMs rule it works, some rule it doesn't apply.

lord_khaine
2008-09-27, 09:31 AM
Oppossed Dex check. Some DMs rule it works, some rule it doesn't apply

ahh, yeah i can see where you are going with that, though i personaly would not count it as a oposed check.
so there hasnt been anything official on this?

mostlyharmful
2008-09-27, 09:55 AM
ahh, yeah i can see where you are going with that, though i personaly would not count it as a oposed check.
so there hasnt been anything official on this?

Not as i'm aware, not likely to be now WotC has deepfreezed 3.5.

quillbreaker
2008-09-27, 11:25 AM
Cleric 20 (God of Magic in your Campaign) // Bard 20

Use my prestige in the church of the god of magic in combination to my bard's persuasive abilities to convince the God of Magic to shut magic off for a handful of rounds. Beat the Mage to death during those rounds with a mace.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-27, 05:21 PM
Out of interest what level of optimization are the rest of the posters on this thread envisaging the Mage?

It seems that some responses are thinking about a DMG Level20 Wiz NPC, some are thinking about LNG-Batman that focuses on group work, some on Paranoid-Batman that trys to minimize all risk and some are thinking of Tippy/Cindy levels of game-breakingly-powerful Mages that a non-caster hasn't a hope against.

I just think it'd be more productive if we worked out the level of prep-work that's gone into any particular prospective victims, since Wizard is the most variable of all the classes powerwise this isn't a little problem of scope.

Frosty
2008-09-27, 05:25 PM
Moment of Prescience does NOT work for Initiative checks. It is not an opposed check. Nowhere in the definition of the Initative check on page 135 of the PHB does it say "opposed."

Kurald Galain
2008-09-27, 05:50 PM
Nowhere in the definition of the Initative check on page 135 of the PHB does it say "opposed."
It is, however, "opposed" given the dictionary definition of that word...

monty
2008-09-27, 05:52 PM
It is, however, "opposed" given the dictionary definition of that word...

Yes, because we all know D&D always uses dictionary definitions for words...

Charlie Kemek
2008-09-27, 07:23 PM
How about somthing like this?
Warlock 16/Hexblade 4//spellthief 20

With Mettle, and ability to UMD, can absorb spells, and can use dispel magic at will, this character could dispel the foresight abilities, then sneak attack and steal spells.

monty
2008-09-27, 10:31 PM
First, I'd be curious as to how you got 22 levels on the left side. Second, I'd like an explanation of exactly how it works. I'm not great at visualizing strategies based on class levels alone.

monty
2008-09-29, 12:54 AM
That still does nothing to handle the contingency(ies).

Besides, you can't possibly work quickly enough to take out an intelligent mage like that. For example, you dispel Foresight. They realize that there's a credible threat nearby, and teleport to safety. When you find them again, Foresight is back up. Zero net gain, assuming they don't kill you rather than teleport away. That would be negative gain. Or positive loss, I suppose.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-30, 04:40 PM
That still does nothing to handle the contingency(ies).

Besides, you can't possibly work quickly enough to take out an intelligent mage like that. For example, you dispel Foresight. They realize that there's a credible threat nearby, and teleport to safety. When you find them again, Foresight is back up. Zero net gain, assuming they don't kill you rather than teleport away. That would be negative gain. Or positive loss, I suppose.

Any situation that results in a Mage getting more prep time is a bad thing almost by definition. That being said are we sure there's no way to make the debuffing covert? Could the noble playgrounders come up with a way to have a sneaky Dispel routine?

monty
2008-09-30, 06:15 PM
Any situation that results in a Mage getting more prep time is a bad thing almost by definition. That being said are we sure there's no way to make the debuffing covert? Could the noble playgrounders come up with a way to have a sneaky Dispel routine?

No matter how sneakily you can dispel, the mage will still notice that they can no longer predict the future.

I suppose dispel mind blank -> mindrape might work (quickening one of them), assuming that doesn't set off any contingencies, but that still leaves them with a chance to cast Celerity in between.

Frosty
2008-09-30, 07:31 PM
You don't *just* dispel foresight. You try to dispel everything else too.

monty
2008-09-30, 07:36 PM
You don't *just* dispel foresight. You try to dispel everything else too.

...and then they teleport away. And if you don't dispel enough of their buffs for them to consider you a serious threat, they just nuke you. Either way, you don't win.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-30, 10:39 PM
...and then they teleport away. And if you don't dispel enough of their buffs for them to consider you a serious threat, they just nuke you. Either way, you don't win.Quickened Greater Dispel Magic+Nosavejustdie=dead wizard in the surprise round. Now the problem is being sure of beating their Dispel check...Artificer, perhaps, with the stave?

monty
2008-09-30, 11:41 PM
Quickened Greater Dispel Magic+Nosavejustdie=dead wizard in the surprise round. Now the problem is being sure of beating their Dispel check...Artificer, perhaps, with the stave?

...except Foresight lets them know you're about to do something to them (that is, dispel stuff), so they still aren't flat-footed. Nothing in the description for Foresight says you suddenly become flat-footed if it's dispelled. Sure, they lose their Dex bonus against you, but that doesn't stop them from taking an immediate action to get the hell out of there, figure out who just attacked them, and rain merciless death upon you (in that order).

There's a reason arcane casters are the most broken classes at high levels (except Planar Shepherd, of course).

Frosty
2008-09-30, 11:43 PM
...and then they teleport away. And if you don't dispel enough of their buffs for them to consider you a serious threat, they just nuke you. Either way, you don't win.

There are spells that prevent teleportation. You gotta use those. You really want to kill the Contingency and the Death Ward, and then try to do a metamagick'ed Enervation and drain 20 levels all at once somehow.

Or again,just do what I mentioned before and approach with Times Stop and cast AMF. There's nothing he can do about that.

Eldariel
2008-09-30, 11:50 PM
Unless he has holed AMF on him, which means you can't get close enough to cast AMF on him in Time Stop as you can't enter his AMF. Also, resolving Time Stop without him noticing and managing to locate and close in on him during it is gonna be hard (Anticipate Teleport, for example, would eat 3 turns of Time Stop).

monty
2008-09-30, 11:55 PM
There are spells that prevent teleportation. You gotta use those.

There are ways around that. Like Dispel Magic.


You really want to kill the Contingency and the Death Ward, and then try to do a metamagick'ed Enervation and drain 20 levels all at once somehow.

Ideally (for the mage), wouldn't trying to remove the contingency be one of the conditions to activate it?


Or again,just do what I mentioned before and approach with Times Stop and cast AMF. There's nothing he can do about that.

And then what? He can just leave the AMF when your Time Stop ends and teleport away.

Cuddly
2008-10-01, 11:49 AM
Can't Touch This
This build focuses on getting Charisma as high as possible and applying it to saves and AC. Virtually all stats can be dumped, save charisma. It also has 9th level spells.

The build:
Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)7/Bard1/Sublime Chord 10/LA2//Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Blackguard3/Swordsage 12

/swordsage2/warblade 10 or /crusader 10 could also work, though you won't get as high level maneuvers. Since you're dumping everything but cha, focus on maneuvers that don't key off any stats by forcing saves. What you want are utility abilities.

Feats:
Other than the three for getting into blackguard, steadfast determination and ascetic mage (get wisdom bonus to ac turned into cha bonus) are all that's really necessary. Getting WRT and IHS with feats (don't think either are on swordsage list) could also be worthwhile.

Ability scores ( 32 pb )
str 8
dex 14 +10 (racial)
con 10 +4 (racial
int 8
wis 10 +2 (racial)
cha 18 +6 (racial)

What you get:
Paladin of Tyranny, Hexblade, Gloura, and Blackguard all give you charisma to saves, which stacks.

With point buy, get 18 charisma. +6 from race, +6 from an item, +5 tome, +5 levels gives you 40 Cha, which means +60 to all saves. Save-or-sucks and save-or-dies effectively fail, due to you also having Mettle (Hexblade class ability) and Evasion (on a ring).

With a monk's belt, Gloura's racial passive, and swordsage, you get charisma to AC x3. With 30 dex (+6 dex item), this is a touch AC of 65 without any other items or bonuses (profane, deflection).

The only problem now is making sure your HPs are sufficient to not be slain by anything that kills based on HP (like PW: Kill).

As for offensive powers, you've got some spell casting (8 levels of bard, 10 levels of sublime chord). Other than that, though.... Not a whole lot.

lord_khaine
2008-10-01, 12:16 PM
though that is a very impressive defensive build, then i am still not sure it can survive the firepower of a twinked mage, and how will you stop the mage from just teleporting away?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-10-01, 12:37 PM
Ascetic Mage only works with monk, not swordsage. Other than that, your build is good.

As for a mage's firepower, a twin, split, maxed ray of stupidity has a 25% chance to take you out. Ditto for other twin/split rays that deal enugh damage.

Chronos
2008-10-01, 01:45 PM
Ascetic Mage only works with monk, not swordsage. Other than that, your build is good.The only thing about Ascetic Mage that needs monk is the AC improvement with levels. Turning the Wis to AC into Cha to AC works regardless:
If you would normally be allowed to add your Wisdom bonus to AC (such as for a unarmored, unencumbered monk), you instead add your Charisma bonus (if any) to your AC.

Also keep in mind that that build has full spellcasting via Sublime Chord. One of those spells could be, say, Ray Deflection.

Cuddly
2008-10-01, 03:19 PM
though that is a very impressive defensive build, then i am still not sure it can survive the firepower of a twinked mage, and how will you stop the mage from just teleporting away?

Can anything but another twinked mage survive the fire power of a twinked mage?

Though I'm pretty sure even 20 levels of the greatest wizardliness would have trouble prepping for it. Upwards of 70 touch AC is going to be hard to hit. Not many builds I know of regularly do that.

Let's see:
BAB 10 + 20 (contingent true strike) + 10 (say 30 dex from a polymorph spell and/or items) + 10 (assortment of spells like haste and stuff) = only hitting on a natural 20.

Anything that requires a save he'll auto-pass (as long as we're not using methods to get n+1 ability scores).

As for preventing teleporting away-
There's always the darkstalker feat and an AMF. Followed by a grapple and death.

But if the mage gets to use contingency cheese, then really, the fight could be between two level 20 commoners with someone crafting contingencies for them.


Ascetic Mage only works with monk, not swordsage. Other than that, your build is good.

It works. See Chronos' post.


As for a mage's firepower, a twin, split, maxed ray of stupidity has a 25% chance to take you out. Ditto for other twin/split rays that deal enugh damage.

Good luck hitting 70 touch AC. There's also no reason why this guy shouldn't have a few scrolls of spells he can put on himself to protect from ability damage that he can UMD or cast of sorc/wiz list.


Also, let's not forget he has 19 turns/day. He could pick up some feats that allow him to spend turning to get more charisma bonuses, or prevent bad things from happening.

Turcano
2008-10-01, 03:56 PM
BAB 10 + 20 (contingent true strike) + 10 (say 30 dex from a polymorph spell and/or items) + 10 (assortment of spells like haste and stuff) = only hitting on a natural 20.

This is the tricky part, especially since it's the touch AC that matters. You need a touch AC of about 50 or so to be proof against most attacks, and I'm having trouble getting it above 32. And nothing really protects you from maw of chaos.

Cuddly
2008-10-01, 04:06 PM
This is the tricky part, especially since it's the touch AC that matters. You need a touch AC of about 50 or so to be proof against most attacks, and I'm having trouble getting it above 32. And nothing really protects you from maw of chaos.

Charisma of 40 = +15 modifier
Dex = 30 (base 14 + 10 race + 6 item) = +10 modifier

Charisma to AC once (monk's belt), twice (gloura), thrice (swordsage)

Base 10 + 10 dex + 16 monk + 15 gloura + 15 swordsage = 66. With only gloves of dex, cloak of charisma, and a +5 book of charisma. +5 more from a defending weapon, and +5 from deflection gets you to 76.

Alternatively, with your ninth level casting, simply shapechange into something with more natural AC than 30 dex, and cast scintillating scales (natural armor to deflection).

As for Maw of Chaos, there's only a 5% chance that he fails his will save for trivial damage. Mettle sees to it that the other 95% of the time, he takes no damage.

Draz74
2008-10-01, 04:46 PM
Unless he has holed AMF on him, which means you can't get close enough to cast AMF on him in Time Stop as you can't enter his AMF.

That's when you fly above him and his AMF (using magical flight) before you cast your own AMF; you take a bit of falling damage, but you suddenly get to move (straight down) however far as a free action and end up right next to the mage and radiating an AMF over him.

monty
2008-10-01, 05:03 PM
Ability scores ( 32 pb )

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this contest use 28 pb?

Also, it seems we've once again proven that you can beat a caster with more magic.

Hal
2008-10-01, 05:24 PM
Do contingent spells work in an AMF?

Turcano
2008-10-01, 06:57 PM
Charisma of 40 = +15 modifier
Dex = 30 (base 14 + 10 race + 6 item) = +10 modifier

And how do you plan to get that with a 28 point buy?


Charisma to AC once (monk's belt), twice (gloura), thrice (swordsage)

I'm pretty sure those don't stack.


Alternatively, with your ninth level casting, simply shapechange into something with more natural AC than 30 dex, and cast scintillating scales (natural armor to deflection).

Using magic to defeat magic sort of defeats the purpose of this exercise.


As for Maw of Chaos, there's only a 5% chance that he fails his will save for trivial damage. Mettle sees to it that the other 95% of the time, he takes no damage.

That's still CL*3.5 points of damage, though.

Chronos
2008-10-01, 07:16 PM
His race (Gloura) gives some pretty nice stat bonuses (+10 Dex, +6 Cha). And I don't think that Monk's Belt stacks with Swordsage's AC bonus (if nothing else, the Swordsage bonus technically requires that you be wearing light armor, and the belt requires unarmored), but the Swordsage's bonus and the Gloura's should stack, since they're both unnamed bonuses from different sources.

Frosty
2008-10-01, 07:46 PM
Ideally (for the mage), wouldn't trying to remove the contingency be one of the conditions to activate it?



And then what? He can just leave the AMF when your Time Stop ends and teleport away.

I guess you *could* get the contingency on "a targeted Dispel cast on me" but then it's effing EASY to force the wizard away from a fight, and in a campaign the monsters now have a few turns to just BEAT on your allies, becuase the enemies have Anticipate Teleport too.

How can he leave my AMF when I have Thicket of Blades, a Reach weapon, and Stand Still/Improved Trip? Once I get into range with my AMF, standard Lockdown conditions apply, except he doesn't get to use any magic or magic items or even (su) abilities. It's possible for me to *miss* yes, but with 20 BAB against a wizard with NO buffs and no magic, that's highly unlikely. Take a Luck feat for a re-roll or something.

Thrawn183
2008-10-01, 08:44 PM
For builds boasting extremely large saves, might I suggest Steadfast Determination so that you don't even fail Fort saves on a 1?

Gotta say it made my DFA eat beholders for breakfast. And they're kind of like casters.... ish.

Cuddly
2008-10-01, 08:47 PM
And how do you plan to get that with a 28 point buy?

Fine. 75 touch AC. He loses 2 points dex. You still are missing 95% of the time.


I'm pretty sure those don't stack.

Oh?
Why's that?
Have you looked?


Using magic to defeat magic sort of defeats the purpose of this exercise.

I agree, though I was merely demonstrating that he could have excess of 75 touch AC. I just wasn't cheesing it up with a bunch of stupid contingency spells.


That's still CL*3.5 points of damage, though.

That has a 5% chance of landing IF the gloura doesn't take a feat for rerolling (which lowers it to a 1/400 chance) and the mage decides that that's the spell he wants to be spending actions on, and not a barrage of orbs. Though actually the orbs are more dangerous, since there's a greater chance of rolling a twenty. A spell he'd probably have would be Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil)- immediate cast, all incoming attack spells bounce back at a target within 30'.


His race (Gloura) gives some pretty nice stat bonuses (+10 Dex, +6 Cha). And I don't think that Monk's Belt stacks with Swordsage's AC bonus (if nothing else, the Swordsage bonus technically requires that you be wearing light armor, and the belt requires unarmored), but the Swordsage's bonus and the Gloura's should stack, since they're both unnamed bonuses from different sources.

Unarmored swordsage variant if that is actually a problem. Anything else would be DM fiat.

[edit]
There's also no reason why the gloura shouldn't have maxed disguise. That way, the wizard looks at it and doesn't realize that it will have impenetrable saves & AC. About half of it will be CC, but sense motive isn't on the wizard skill list, and it's extremely unlikely for the wizard to have higher wis than the gloura's charisma.

Turcano
2008-10-01, 09:31 PM
Oh?
Why's that?
Have you looked?

They're nearly identical abilities, and those tend not to stack, especially since you've got them all powered by Charisma. If the monk/swordsage abilities are based of Wisdom like normal, you, have one of them stack with the gloura ability.

Cuddly
2008-10-01, 09:36 PM
They're nearly identical abilities, and those tend not to stack, especially since you've got them all powered by Charisma. If the monk/swordsage abilities are based of Wisdom like normal, you, have one of them stack with the gloura ability.

Different bonus types from different sources stack. These include unnamed bonuses.

Ruling that they wouldn't stack isn't RAW; it'd be you making stuff up.

Frosty
2008-10-01, 09:54 PM
Monk Swordsage might not stack since they are very similar, but Gloura/Monk or Swordsage definitely stacks regardless of if they both use Charisma or not.

Douglas
2008-10-01, 11:30 PM
By RAW the Swordsage bonus goes away if you take off your light armor. Since you can't have both light and no armor at the same time, you cannot satisfy the requirements for both Monk and Swordsage AC bonus at the same time.

By RAI, I'm pretty sure they were meant to not stack as they represent almost exactly the same thing.

Either way, that particular combination doesn't work.

Turcano
2008-10-01, 11:33 PM
Different bonus types from different sources stack. These include unnamed bonuses.

Ruling that they wouldn't stack isn't RAW; it'd be you making stuff up.

Very well.

So how are you getting Charisma to synergize with all three abilities? I know you can get Intelligence synergy with Carmendine Monk; is there a similar feat for Charisma I'm not aware of?

Chronos
2008-10-01, 11:51 PM
We already went over that-- Ascetic Mage turns a Wis to AC bonus into Cha to AC. And the Gloura's Unearthly Grace ability is already Cha-based.

Turcano
2008-10-02, 01:52 PM
We already went over that-- Ascetic Mage turns a Wis to AC bonus into Cha to AC. And the Gloura's Unearthly Grace ability is already Cha-based.

Ah. Sorry; this build is based on a creature I have absolutely no experience with.

Cuddly
2008-10-02, 07:04 PM
Ah. Sorry; this build is based on a creature I have absolutely no experience with.

I linked the creature in my initial post.

Turcano
2008-10-02, 07:10 PM
I must of glossed over that.