The definitive 'will Kubota get rezzed?' thread.

[Mercenary Pen]

I proposed on another thread that getting rezzed would probably actually work to Kubota's advantage, citing the following reason:

Kubota's guilt could easily be proven- after death- by the use of speak with dead. If he were rezzed, his unusual choice of prestige class would give him the chance to bluff his way out of things, lying his way out of the zone of truth with comparative ease...

Indeed, even if he couldn't pin things on Therkla, there's always the chance to blame things on Qarr, concocting an argument on the lines of 'I was dominated by an evil outsider who was hiding in the traditional 'power behind the proverbial throne' position- which is enough of a well-known plot device that it might even get Elan second-guessing himself...

[Threeshades]

I think you needa corpse to use speak with dead. And I don't think anyone has a corpse.

[Mauve Shirt]

Wasn't that the whole point of the gust of wind, to get rid of the remains so that resurrection is impossible?

[Mercenary Pen]

The corpse was blown off the deck of Hinjo's Junk (or whichever other ship it may have been) by V's Gust of Wind... All it takes is for Hinjo to decide he NEEDS answers, send Lien diving to bring Kubota's corpse back, and the problem is still there.

If Kubota qualifies for the much-touted 'MB' status, he's pretty much got to know the capabilities of all of the major Paladins within the Sapphire guard (which Lien counts as) as well as the abilities of anyone else Hinjo might call upon... In other words, being forced to admit to his crimes from beyond the grave is very much an option, and Kubota SHOULD know it.

EDIT: There's still the possibility of true resurrection, which doesn't need any bodily remains. Also, Gust of Wind is not a definitive answer, as stated above.

[Threeshades]

The corpse was blown off the deck of Hinjo's Junk (or whichever other ship it may have been) by V's Gust of Wind... All it takes is for Hinjo to decide he NEEDS answers, send Lien diving to bring Kubota's corpse back, and the problem is still there.

If Kubota qualifies for the much-touted 'MB' status, he's pretty much got to know the capabilities of all of the major Paladins within the Sapphire guard (which Lien counts as) as well as the abilities of anyone else Hinjo might call upon... In other words, being forced to admit to his crimes from beyond the grave is very much an option, and Kubota SHOULD know it.

You do realize that Kubota's "corpse" is nothing more than a pile of dust. Lien can dive all she wants even if she were able to find any of his dust it'll be quite a chore to collect it

[AstralFire]

Disintegrate turns things into dust. Lien cannot dive for dust.

As far as we know Durkon is the most powerful Cleric in range and he's too low level to cast True R, or Roy'd be alive.

[Threeshades]

As far as we know Durkon is the most powerful Cleric in range and he's too low level to cast True R, or Roy'd be alive.

Now that's one hell of a good point!

[Iranon]

Imagine the 'Roy's dead' getting dragged out forever and just as they seem to have found a plausible solution we get...

DING!
:durkon: Ach, blast it. True Ressurection!

[Mercenary Pen]

Disintegrate turns things into dust. Lien cannot dive for dust.

As far as we know Durkon is the most powerful Cleric in range and he's too low level to cast True R, or Roy'd be alive.

But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.

What's more, Qarr is known to call upon other evil outsiders upon occasion. One of these outsiders might potentially have enough Cleric levels to do a True Rezz...

[Laurentio II]

But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.

What's more, Qarr is known to call upon other evil outsiders upon occasion. One of these outsiders might potentially have enough Cleric levels to do a True Rezz...
Emphasized by me.

Qarr called ONE powerful outsider ONCE, due a game debt. While this does not preclude that he has a row of demons and devils just waiting for a chance to serve him, it would be strange. I means, you have that much follow, and still work as a minion familiar?
That brings to the part 2: now that the master is dead, what happens to the familiar?

[Myrdhale]

But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.

What's more, Qarr is known to call upon other evil outsiders upon occasion. One of these outsiders might potentially have enough Cleric levels to do a True Rezz...

except that his calling upon the great demon was shown to be on average an unlikely occurence, and there is no guarantee he has another Favour to call in from a greater outsider. I'm gonna invoke Occam's razor here, this whole "Kubota getting rezzed" thing is just grasping at straws. The most likely plot course is that Kubota is dead and gone with, V's gust ensuring that, and The order incurring the wrath of the other noble Houses for killing Kubota without proof or due process.

Edit: Blast! ninja's by a viking general. :smalltongue:

[AKA_Bait]

I don't actually think it's going to be the wrath of the noble houses that causes the split with Hinjo. What I suspect is that Elan will be convinced by V to keep quiet but being Elan, something will slip. Hinjo will then, after being lied to and being connected with an unlawful killing (I'm not calling it a murder because the bastard had it coming) ask the order to leave as per his Paladiny goodness.

[sihnfahl]

That brings to the part 2: now that the master is dead, what happens to the familiar?
Depends on the nature of the demonic familiar's servitude on the mortal plane.

The good ones turn their old 'masters' into their servants in Hell.

You don't want to know what the bad ones do.

[Ikialev]

The good ones turn their old 'masters' into their servants in Hell.
...The GOOd ones? 0o

[sihnfahl]

...The GOOd ones? 0o
Well, sure! I mean, the good ones will only enslave their soul for all time, force them to be their gofers in Hell (picking up the kids, doing the laundry, sharpening the tines of their pitchforks, that sort of thing)... generally turn them into butlers.

[lord of kobolds]

...The GOOd ones? 0o

Good meaning "less bad" than the rest. Being a gofer is assumed to be far preferable to what some other familiars do.

[Zolem]

I think you needa corpse to use speak with dead. And I don't think anyone has a corpse.

You need an INTACT corpse, as they reply from the mouth with what knowledge they had in thier brain up to the moment of death. No contact with the spirit is involved.

Edit: On the topic of him being rezed. then Hell yeah. He has a cleric in his employ on standby with a lock of his hair in order to cast 'Resurection' to pull him out of the dead.

[Theodoriph]

You need an INTACT corpse, as they reply from the mouth with what knowledge they had in thier brain up to the moment of death. No contact with the spirit is involved.

Edit: On the topic of him being rezed. then Hell yeah. He has a cleric in his employ on standby with a lock of his hair in order to cast 'Resurection' to pull him out of the dead.


The only way Kubota can be resurrected via the resurrection spell is if they gather up all the dust particles.

A lock of hair will not help. For resurrection to work, the part of the body has to have been part of the body at time of death. Ergo, a previously cut lock of hair will not be sufficient. The spell specifies that "the remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body." Since the dust is now scattered and overboard...well, it's of no use.

Thus Kubota would need a cleric that knows True Resurrection, and he does not have one of those.

[Kurald Galain]

If Kubota qualifies for the much-touted 'MB' status,
It should be abundantly clear by now that he does not.


But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.
Yes, because evil demons are known for their loyalty :smallbiggrin:

(Besides, Occam speaking... if Qarr had anywhere near those resources he would have used them a long time ago, for instance to, you know, kill Elan)

[Mauve Shirt]

Dear gods, I reeeeally hope that he's not resurrected. Possible or not, I don't think Rich would do that to us after such a satisfying (I thought) extermination of the character.

[Oracle_Hunter]

No, the late, great Lord Kubota is dead and will not be coming back. Not only were his ashes scattered to the four winds, but Rich has, so far, only rezz'd one character (not counting Xykon, of course) and only because it would be bizarre if the Oracle didn't foresee his own death and make adequate plans for resurrection.

The good news is that Lord Kubota is now free to pursue greater goals... such as ruling Hell :smallbiggrin:

[Majorman]

Wasn't that the whole point of the gust of wind, to get rid of the remains so that resurrection is impossible?

No, it was to blow the evidence away. No body, no crime. And he won't be resurrected, unless his devil (or a demon?) companion is a high enough level to cast True Resurrection. But even then, that's too much work for a mere mortal. Surely, he can find another willing recipient.

[Fawkes]

I don't think you can really say that only one of those was the specific reason for the gust of wind, seeing those are both solid benefits of it. If V says "I did it to hide the evidence," or "I did it to prevent him from being resurrected," then we'll know.

[slayerx]

But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.


Assuming Qarr is still working for Kubota...
Considering how Qarr did not back up Kubota when he needed him i'd wager to guess that Qarr has decided to move on... Kubota hasn't exactly been the easiest master to work for as he been ignoring Qarr's judgement of Therkla and has thus very poor at getting the job done. i"m kinda guessing he's moving on to a new "master" now

[Johel]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm

A possibility ? Ok, we don't know any level 15 Wizard but who said Kubota had to actually find allies only in Azur City ? He might have "rent a clone" somewhere, sending a piece of flesh a long time ago.

The clone was preserved until then with a Gentle Repose spell.
1500 po is not that expensive for Kubota, nor are the expenses of a 15th level mage casting a 3rd level spell every 2 weeks and keeping the clone in his celling. Kind of a "Life-Insurrance" Business :smallbiggrin:

EDIT : in fact, the mage could just have kept the flesh in his celling and would create the clone only if needed (Any family member of Kubota can send a bird to the wizard to "informe him of the dead of his dear friend").

[AKA_Bait]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm

A possibility ? Ok, we don't know any level 15 Wizard but who said Kubota had to actually find allies only in Azur City ? He might have "rent a clone" somewhere, sending a piece of flesh a long time ago.

The clone was preserved until then with a Gentle Repose spell.
1500 po is not that expensive for Kubota, nor are the expenses of a 15th level mage casting a 3rd level spell every 2 weeks and keeping the clone in his celling. Kind of a "Life-Insurrance" Business :smallbiggrin:

In his ceiling where? Back in Az? Someplace on his boat? If that is the case, and it's on his boat, there was no reason for him to give in to capture. He might even have been better off jumping over the side and drowning.

[Johel]

As I said, the wizard don't have to be from Azur City.
Let's say Cliffport. They got a Magical Academy there, right ?

EDIT : and for the jumping and drowing part, why doing so ? If it's on his boat, he would have been caugh anyway AND would have had to cut of another peace of flesh (which must be a painfull thing) to create the next clone. No, better surrending and, if executed, reborn somewhere far away from there as a last ressort. ("Just lick my ball, Hinjo")

[AKA_Bait]

As I said, the wizard don't have to be from Azur City.
Let's say Cliffport. They got a Magical Academy there, right ?

I was talking about the location of the clone, not the wizard.

[Johel]

I was talking about the location of the clone, not the wizard.

Well, the clone (or the flesh) need a spell to prevent it to rot so it is with the wizard, who might be... anywhere BUT NOT WITH THE AZUR FLEET.
happy ? :smallsmile:

[Jade_Tarem]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm

A possibility ? Ok, we don't know any level 15 Wizard but who said Kubota had to actually find allies only in Azur City ? He might have "rent a clone" somewhere, sending a piece of flesh a long time ago.

The clone was preserved until then with a Gentle Repose spell.
1500 po is not that expensive for Kubota, nor are the expenses of a 15th level mage casting a 3rd level spell every 2 weeks and keeping the clone in his celling. Kind of a "Life-Insurrance" Business :smallbiggrin:

EDIT : in fact, the mage could just have kept the flesh in his celling and would create the clone only if needed (Any family member of Kubota can send a bird to the wizard to "informe him of the dead of his dear friend").

Possible but unlikely. I'll go ahead and assume that the second half of this theory is true - that this same wizard would teleport Kubota back to the fleet. If he had that kind of contingency plan in place, why bother with that scene and gambit with Therkla in the Kato cabin? He could have died a martyr, only to come back a level lower and much more popular than before.

Also, I can only imagine that some of the other nobles would be pretty pissed about something like that. Kubota has to have a successor, and that successor will not be happy when he gets coronated or whatever, only to have to abdicate a few days later when Kubota materializes on the deck going "LOL giyz not rlly."

Finally, bringing Kubota back would vastly cheapen the significance of his demise. It was epic. It was what everyone wanted but no one could have. Kubota - for all his scheming, power abuse, cheating, lying, backstabbing, assassinating, ruthless behavior - was taken out by a single, righteous act of pure violence. Was it unlawful? Certainly. But Kubota should have known on some level that when he starts using assassination, treason, and murder to attain power, eventually someone would employ the most brutal of methods to stop him. He didn't. He thought he was the only one allowed to break the rules - that he was the only one that could ever act outside the law, that his agenda was more important than any other (such as saving the world), and that everyone else just had to bend over and take it.

V just proved him wrong with a single word - the shortest argument the elf has yet made.

"Disintegrate!"

[AKA_Bait]

Well, the clone (or the flesh) need a spell to prevent it to rot so it is with the wizard, who might be... anywhere BUT NOT WITH THE AZUR FLEET.
happy ? :smallsmile:

Well, it seems to me that the body doesn't need to be with the wizard who cast it anymore. Kutoba would just need someone to cast Gentle Repose on it every so often. That's only a second level cleric and third level wizard spell. Kutoba could keep a lower level wizard or cleric mook around to handle that. Doing so would be cheaper than having the 15th level mage tend to it also I suspect.

[Sethis]

But there's one fact still to be considered... Qarr is still out there somewhere.

What's more, Qarr is known to call upon other evil outsiders upon occasion. One of these outsiders might potentially have enough Cleric levels to do a True Rezz...

Not gonna happen. See Qarr is an Imp, which means he's a devil. The whole purpose of devils is to trick and connive to convince people to convert to Lawful Evil, and if ANYONE in this strip is LE, it was Kubota.

Then, when that person dies, the devil gets his soul. Kubota is currently on a one-way trip down the River Styx that ends in a very very bad place filled with fire and brimstone.

Justly deserved.

[Ridureyu]

Obviously, Kubota's spirit will be so upset about this (After all, now that he's dead he can't eat any more chocolate) that he will scream loudly enough to break through reality and escape to the Material Plane again, thus foiling everybody's plans and making him more powerful than before.

And then he will eat Gotenks.





(bonus points if that made sense to anybody)

[Johel]

Doing so would be cheaper than having the 15th level mage tend to it also I suspect.


Mmh... Yes, maybe.
But, as a Magnificent Bastard, I would not entrust my future in the hands of a mere 5th level wizard who would have to cast the spell every 4-5 days.

This and the fact that, when you are able to create clones, you could do swift money by creating something like a medieval cryogénic chamber.
The customer gives the flesh, a gold deposit and a password. You keep it all from rotting until the day when a bird come with the password. Then you create the clone.

Let's say every single Evil Guy and a few Good Guys as well would subscribe to the formule. Such a wizard could have up to 60 customers (15 days x 4 antirot spells) and it would cost him nothing but sacrificing all his 3th level spells for it and keeping a laboratory for the clone's creation. As a high level wizard, he would probably already have a laboratory for daily experiments so, it's not really that costly.

[Sethis]

Nevermind. Wrong version. Clone does however only work if the soul is willing to return, and as Kubota currently resides in Hell, and the first thing they do is torture the soul into insanity...

Yeah. There aren't many return tickets from there.

[Theodoriph]

Nevermind. Wrong version. Clone does however only work if the soul is willing to return, and as Kubota currently resides in Hell, and the first thing they do is torture the soul into insanity...

Yeah. There aren't many return tickets from there.



Alright, the clone theory is completely silly. BUT...why all the bickering about wizards casting gentle repose. It'd be so much easier to buy a magic item that keeps the spell continually cast on his clone.

[AKA_Bait]

Alright, the clone theory is completely silly. BUT...why all the bickering about wizards casting gentle repose. It'd be so much easier to buy a magic item that keeps the spell continually cast on his clone.

Thats... an excellent point.

[Theodoriph]

Don't encourage me. I feel like an enabler. :smalltongue:

[Chronos]

I proposed on another thread that getting rezzed would probably actually work to Kubota's advantage, citing the following reason:I can think of a much more compelling argument for why getting rezzed would work to Kubota's advantage:
Because then he, you know, wouldn't be dead any more

[AstralFire]

I can think of a much more compelling argument for why getting rezzed would work to Kubota's advantage:
Because then he, you know, wouldn't be dead any more

Oh no you didn't.

[David Argall]

Yes, because evil demons are known for their loyalty :smallbiggrin:

Well, actually he is an evil devil, and thus a little bit known for loyalty. Of course that is mostly loyalty in the small stuff so they can screw you in the important matters.

But the default presumption at this point is tha Qarr is now carrying Kubota's soul off to some Hell for results that will be a lot more fun for Qarr than Kubota.

[Callista]

Wasn't that the whole point of the gust of wind, to get rid of the remains so that resurrection is impossible?It's not impossible, just very difficult. True Resurrection or Wish/Miracle will do it.

Oh, and there's the "coming back as undead" route.

Or you could use a Limited Wish (or some other multipurpose spell) to gather up the ashes, and then Resurrect.

A clone spell, prepared beforehand, or a high-level priest on retainer could solve that, though.

If you REALLY don't want somebody coming back (and you're evil enough to do it), kill them, raise them as a zombie or skeleton, protect it against scrying, and toss it someplace obscure, like the Astral plane or the bottom of the ocean. I think it takes epic magic to get out of that one, because you have to find the undead creature before you can kill it and raise the person, even with true resurrection. Of course, the "trapped as a mindless undead creature for all eternity" (in some settings--others have the soul bound only if the undead creature has an INT score) is what makes it so evil.

[ericgrau]

No, no he will not be rezzed. Astralfire put it nicely, but it's also a matter of plot.

[Jade_Tarem]

If you REALLY don't want somebody coming back (and you're evil enough to do it), kill them, raise them as a zombie or skeleton, protect it against scrying, and toss it someplace obscure, like the Astral plane or the bottom of the ocean. I think it takes epic magic to get out of that one, because you have to find the undead creature before you can kill it and raise the person, even with true resurrection. Of course, the "trapped as a mindless undead creature for all eternity" (in some settings--others have the soul bound only if the undead creature has an INT score) is what makes it so evil.

Better still: find a sphere of annihilation and apply it to your target. BOOM. The bastard will not be coming back without the direct intervention of a deity - even epic magic falters here, although an epic enough character could theoretically kill a deity (thus becoming one) in order to bring back an annihilated entity.

[Theodoriph]

Better still: find a sphere of annihilation and apply it to your target. BOOM. The bastard will not be coming back without the direct intervention of a deity - even epic magic falters here, although an epic enough character could theoretically kill a deity (thus becoming one) in order to bring back an annihilated entity.


Or, soul bind them. Throw the gem into a bag of holding and then pierce the bag of holding with a sharp instrument. As per bag of holding description, "All contents are lost forever." Alas, poor soul.

[hamishspence]

and in Epic handbook the head of The Garotte (ancient assassin organisation): has a cloak: place it over body, speak command word, disappears, soul is un-resurrectable even by greater gods.

[TentsOnFire]

Imagine the 'Roy's dead' getting dragged out forever and just as they seem to have found a plausible solution we get...

DING!
:durkon: Ach, blast it. True Ressurection!

That would be amazingly hilarious, and amazingly frustrating.

But yeah, I REALLY hope Kubota stays dead.

[Iamyourking]

In theory, V could restore the body using a Limited Wish (Which we know he can cast since she did cast Prismatic Spray and I don't believe is one of his barred schools) allowing Durkon to Ressurect him. However, I somehow doubt it would want to do that since after all he did kill Kubota and I doubt she would want to spend another one of it's valuble spells to undo this.

[Lamech]

Kubota could have a one shot clone item and a piece of flesh stashed somewhere. According to the making new magic items rules that would cost about 13500 gp and require CL 15, plus a gental repose item probably another few thousand gp. It would be cheaper than the +5 armour and have the same CL, he could definitaly do it. Of course, he would need someone to activate it, and it would take sometime, and such an item would need to be possible. I don't think you can have a prebuilt clone because of this line.

A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved.
Hmm... Kubota might also have a magic item that can cast true ressurection, it would be insanely expensive, but it just might work.

I hope Kubota stays dead, but V did not take good precautions to prevent a raise from going through.

[SPoD]

I hope Kubota stays dead, but V did not take good precautions to prevent a raise from going through.

I don't think V gives a crap if Kubota is raised, as long as it happens somewhere where it doesn't affect him/her. As in, if he/she sees Kubota alive again, he/she will just disintegrate him again anyway.