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Adumbration
2008-09-23, 11:59 AM
ECL 15, using the rules for dragon PCs from Dracomnicon. Alignment, evil. What dragon should I choose? What feats? What options do I have in combat?

I'll be editing this post as I do some groundwork myself, but right now, I could use some opinions on the first and last question.

By the Dracomnicon rules, I'll probably get a dragon with 10-13 HD and 2-5 LA. Age varies from Very Young to Young.

EDIT: I think I just fell in love with the Abyssal Drake. And it's just the first monster in Dracomnicon.

Oh, and most books are available.

Dragon decided: the Abyssal Drake.

Ganurath
2008-09-23, 01:27 PM
You know, since it already has burrow speed, I've always liked the idea of a Blue Dragon making like the Beetlejuice Sandworm, snatching prey and draggin them underground. Perhaps a few levels in Monk for grappling feats and a speed boost? Not to mention the strong Reflex Save.

The_Snark
2008-09-23, 03:54 PM
I've mentioned it before on these boards, but for playing a real dragon, the abyssal drake is what you want. You could play a true dragon, but likely you'll end up as a Medium-size dragon with a feeble breath weapon and stats only slightly above, say, an orc.

Whereas the abyssal drake is Huge-sized, with natural armor and stats to match. It doesn't get wing attacks, but the rend attack and poison make up for that. It even gets frightful presence and a breath weapon that's respectable, although not great for ECL 15.

Important note: The abyssal drake can't attack with all four attacks unless it's hovering, and it can't hover at normal maneuverability. Pick up the Draconomicon item that boosts maneuverability by two categories.

Combat options depend on feats and, more importantly, on what class levels you want to pick up later. It's pretty easy to just make a melee bruiser, in which case you might want Multiattack, probably Power Attack, and any other feats you feel like taking. Snatch might be handy too.

Frosty
2008-09-23, 04:05 PM
You only need Good Maneuverability to hover.

Adumbration
2008-09-23, 11:52 PM
I've mentioned it before on these boards, but for playing a real dragon, the abyssal drake is what you want. You could play a true dragon, but likely you'll end up as a Medium-size dragon with a feeble breath weapon and stats only slightly above, say, an orc.

Whereas the abyssal drake is Huge-sized, with natural armor and stats to match. It doesn't get wing attacks, but the rend attack and poison make up for that. It even gets frightful presence and a breath weapon that's respectable, although not great for ECL 15.

Important note: The abyssal drake can't attack with all four attacks unless it's hovering, and it can't hover at normal maneuverability. Pick up the Draconomicon item that boosts maneuverability by two categories.

Combat options depend on feats and, more importantly, on what class levels you want to pick up later. It's pretty easy to just make a melee bruiser, in which case you might want Multiattack, probably Power Attack, and any other feats you feel like taking. Snatch might be handy too.

This is what I'm going to do, pretty much. I've already grabbed that RoW feat that improves your maneuverability by one category, and I think I'll get that item too.

Any opinions on the feat Large and in Charge? Basically, each time you take an AoO, you get a free bullrush to push the enemy back from your reach. And this is with the damage from the AoO. Would probably help keeping those pesky paladins from smiting so bad.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-24, 12:37 AM
If the Abyssal Drake has a breath weapon, consider picking up the Fly By Attack/Fly By Breath/Strafing Breath feat tree from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's crazy dangerous to use, and fun to boot!

newbDM
2008-09-24, 06:06 AM
If you want some advice from someone who has played a Dragon PC (Copper), played a character with a dragon effigy with HD equal to his (Red), and is currently running for a (Silver) dragon PC, just drop the LA.

You would be surprised at how well it works. In both the game where my red dragon effigy was equal to the party's HD, and in my current game where the silver dragon PC is equal to the party's HD they were not even the deadliest thing in the group. In my current group the dwarf paladin and the warforged fighter/paragon can both whip him (they take part in coliseum battles for prizes on occasion).

It really does balance out quite well. I was originally suggested this by two members on the WotC forums (pre-4ed :smallannoyed:)


Check out the following Dragon issues for Racial Progression rules for breaking down the dragons into class levels, so you can play either a metallic or chromatic dragon from level 1-20. This is what I used for my player, but I just went by the listed HDs instead of the level.

http://paizo.com/dragon/products/downloads/320&source=rss
http://paizo.com/dragon/products/downloads/v5748btpy7y9v

Heliomance
2008-09-24, 06:29 AM
Important note: The abyssal drake can't attack with all four attacks unless it's hovering, and it can't hover at normal maneuverability. Pick up the Draconomicon item that boosts maneuverability by two categories.


Which item is that? I can't find it.

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 07:19 AM
If the Abyssal Drake has a breath weapon, consider picking up the Fly By Attack/Fly By Breath/Strafing Breath feat tree from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. It's crazy dangerous to use, and fun to boot!

Yeah, he has a breath weapon. I think it was 10d6? 10d8? half fire, half unholy. 1d4 recharge time, as usual. Unfortunately, I don't have the Dragonlance campaign setting.

Also, the DM has told me that there will be both underground battles, and at least one aerial battle. I'm guessing that my abyssal drake will be pitted against a dragon of good, or something like that.

EDIT: Also, does anyone have any idea which of the class skills get racial boni? I'm fairly sure that he does get some, the numbers don't match.

At the moment I'm looking at the following feat progression:

1st: Improved Flight (RoW)
3rd: Large and in Charge
6th: Quicken Breath
9th: Clinging Breath

Flaw ( ): Flyby Attack
Flaw ( ): Snatch

With this, I would be able to take care of myself both on ground and in air. When I need to use Quicken Breath, I'll also pile massive amounts of Clinging breath on it. Sure, I won't be doing it again in many rounds, but the enemies will burn. And if any pesky paladin tries to get near, they'll be thrown right back. Or snatched and chewed.

Koalita
2008-09-24, 09:26 AM
Excuse me for asking here, but I was thinking, what do you think about a gestalt character, dragon/some class? so he can advance in dragon HD and in a classs at the same time... Should LA be applied then?

Cheers

The_Snark
2008-09-24, 12:43 PM
Which item is that? I can't find it.

The Pectoral of Manueverability, page 83 in the Draconomicon.

Abyssal drakes don't have racial skill bonuses; all of the modifiers match up, if you account for the fact that it has 11 ranks in hide and 1 rank in Diplomacy and Intimidate. Synergy bonuses give the rest.

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 01:21 PM
Abyssal drakes don't have racial skill bonuses; all of the modifiers match up, if you account for the fact that it has 11 ranks in hide and 1 rank in Diplomacy and Intimidate. Synergy bonuses give the rest.

What, does he get synergy bonuses worth 17 skill points? Since that's what I calculated, what with his -2 Int modifier.

The_Snark
2008-09-24, 01:31 PM
You might have forgotten he has the outsider type, not dragon: he gets 8+Int modifier skill points per level. That's 6 skills: Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, with two skill points taken out of Hide and put into Diplomacy and Intimidate.

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 01:45 PM
Right, just re-did my calculations, and as it turns out, you're right.

By the way, I still have about 50k gold left to spend. Armbands, rings, amulet and armor are already accounted for. Any ideas?

only1doug
2008-09-24, 04:18 PM
dragonspirit cincture (belt): increase breath weapon damage by 1d6.

Adumbration
2008-09-25, 05:38 AM
What's with the Abyssal Drake's full attack? It says either bite and sting, or two claws. Can I only use two natural attacks at a time?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 05:41 AM
What's with the Abyssal Drake's full attack? It says either bite and sting, or two claws. Can I only use two natural attacks at a time?It's a layout issue. You have claws and a bite on the front and a sting on the back but you can't bring all of those to bear unless you are hovering.

Adumbration
2008-09-25, 05:59 AM
It's a layout issue. You have claws and a bite on the front and a sting on the back but you can't bring all of those to bear unless you are hovering.

So I can use them, now that I have Good maneuverability? And on ground, if it comes to that?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-25, 07:03 AM
For anything with maneuverability Normal or lower you should get the feat Improved Flight from Races of the Wild.

Shadow Dragon is by far the best one to use. Take Warlock 2 for Darkness and Devil's Sight, and your Shadow Blend ability will make you always have total concealment. Total concealment = invisibility that isn't dispelled when you attack, and it can't be thwarted by effects that normally see invisible creatures. Maybe just get one Warlock level for Darkness, or get a Wand of Darkness with UMD. Take Recover Breath and Flyby Attack and undetectably pummel your opponents with negative levels every round, which doesn't suffer the 20% miss chance for the darkness.

If you can, take Leadership and get a cohort who's a Cloistered Cleric of Tiamat 6/ Talon of Tiamat. He should have Heighten Spell and Divine Metamagic: Heighten Spell. He can spend most of his time guarding your lair, maintaining wards and undead guards, and praying at a shrine you've set up. Every few days have him cast a Heightened (9th) Deeper Darkness on a pendant you wear around your neck. Being a 9th level spell, it will automatically overcome and suppress any light spell of 8th level or lower. You can hold the pendant in your mouth to keep the effect contained, and "drop" it by spitting it out as a free action to plunge the area into darkness and activate your Shadow Blend ability.

Shadow Blend is win. Even if your opponents can see through magical darkness, they won't be able to see you through Shadow Blend. They can't use any spells or abilities against you that don't require an attack roll or have an area effect, because they won't have line of sight to you. If they do try to use ranged or area attacks, you'll be flyby attacking every round so it will be a guessing game of where you are each time they try.

True Seeing can see through Shadow Blend, but it can only see out to 120 feet. Blindsight can pinpoint your location, but its range is usually even more limited than True Seeing. Blindsense, Mindsight, and similar abilities also have a limited range and also can't pinpoint your exact location. They could Spot/Listen check to try to figure out where you're at, but remember they get a -1 per ten feet.

Keep in mind you'll know how long you have to wait to breathe again, so even if opponents have abilities like those, you can be out of detection range on the rounds you can't breathe. I seem to remember a feat somewhere that lets you breathe as a free action during a round in which you do nothing but move, so you could actually fly past at a x4 run and be well out of range both before and after your turn.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-25, 07:46 AM
An Abyssal Drake is an Outsider instead of a Dragon, it gets only d8s for HP instead of d12s. By advancing its Hit Dice your save DCs will increase appropriately (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + ability modifier, Con for breath/poison and Cha for frightful presence), but your breath attack damage will never increase as a result of advancement. You won't gain the DR, SR, spells, increased natural armor, fly speed, or other special abilities that any true dragon would gain by advancing an age category.

Creatures that advance by HD instead of age categories end up with an abnormally high HP pool and physical damage for their CR, but abnormally low AC. Advancing by ECL instead of CR, you won't even have that. CR advancement would get at least double the HP, BAB, saves, and size/ability score increases as ECL advancement, and advancing by CR becomes less playable the higher you get; ECL advancement will become less playable twice as fast.

The full attack option doesn't include all four attacks in a single full attack, even when hovering. You're always limited to either a bite and a sting, or two claws. You'll never be able to make all four in a single round unless you can somehow make two full attack actions in one round. The best it can do is make two claw attacks with a rend on a flyby attack.

Short-term, it may immediately be a better physical combatant than most true dragons, but if the game is going to last long enough for you to advance at all, an Abyssal Drake or any other creature that doesn't advance by age categories or class levels will be a poor choice for later on.

Assuming you get at least an elite array for ability scores, an Abyssal Drake advanced to ECL 20 (+5 HD) would have about 200 HP, no higher AC other than gear, +5 to attack rolls, +2 to saving throws, +2 to save DCs. Put that against an Adult Copper Dragon, CR 14, anything lower would be too low for you to even get XP for. That gets just as much HP as you, at least as high an AC as you considering its 3rd level and lower spells (Greater Mage Armor, Shield, Shield of Faith), just as fast/maneuverable as you assuming you both get appropriate feats to improve it, much higher attack bonus due to having more HD, higher save bonuses, DR/magic that you can't overcome, and much better tricks than you considering just its spells and Stone Shape. Its breath attack would deal less damage than yours, but it can cast Resist Energy or Protection from Energy to negate that advantage. Plus it would be a lot smarter than your drake, and if played properly you would be doomed to lose, in a fight that would only give you less than 1/26 the XP you'd need to level up. Even if it was about to lose, it could cast Protection from Evil and do a little dance in front of you, because that alone would completely prevent you from harming it.

Adumbration
2008-09-25, 08:20 AM
Hmm. You do have good points, but I think you're underestimating the power of 36 point-buy, self-picked feats + 2 flaws and full WBL. Here is what I have so far.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=82986

You have, however, made a convincing argument for the shadow dragon. I have to consider and compare.

EDIT:
Doing a comparison right now. A shadow dragon would net me 12 HD, +3 LA. 2 additional hitdice when compared to the Abyssal. It would be Young, without Frightful Presence, which is a minus, as well as Small, compared to Huge of the Abyssal. It has better NA bonus, as well as SR. It has, in my opinion, the worse of the two breath weapons - 1 negative level when compared to the 10d8 of fire. The Meld in Shadows is a good benefit, though.

Let's see. If you can find a way to get more negative levels on his breath weapon, or another very good reason, I might take it.

EDIT 2: Actually, on reading your first post again, I am more convinced. I am, still, a bit at loss on how to go about actually making the crunch work.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 08:42 AM
An Abyssal Drake is 7 HD, which means you get an additional 8 class levels of abilities before reaching the same ECL as a Shadow Dragon. That's the real difference. Abyssal Drake+Barb 1+Warblade 7 is enough to kill most CR-appropriate encounters without worry. 6th level Maneuvers can destroy everything, especially when piled on top of your dragon goodies.

Adumbration
2008-09-25, 08:48 AM
An Abyssal Drake is 7 HD, which means you get an additional 8 class levels of abilities before reaching the same ECL as a Shadow Dragon. That's the real difference. Abyssal Drake+Barb 1+Warblade 7 is enough to kill most CR-appropriate encounters without worry. 6th level Maneuvers can destroy everything, especially when piled on top of your dragon goodies.

Excuse me? Abyssal drake is 10 HD, with 5 LA. Page 145 of Draconomicon. I think you're thinking about some other dragon here.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 08:57 AM
Excuse me? Abyssal drake is 10 HD, with 5 LA. Page 145 of Draconomicon. I think you're thinking about some other dragon here.Yeah, I was thinking of the Ambush Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a), which is a 7HD no LA dragon. It's the closest to playable of any of the Dragons out there.

Adumbration
2008-09-25, 09:39 AM
Actually, Shadow Blend is even better than I thought. You don't even need magical darkness, any state of illumination lesser than full daylight allows you to disappear into the shadows.

But I'm still kinda iffy about whether a shadow dragon can do anything useful in combat. The breath weapon would be good, if it wasn't so weak.

EDIT: Also, most of the other submissions are casters or more on the stealthy side. A big melee bruiser wouldn't hurt.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-25, 02:31 PM
A Shadow Dragon gets 2 claws and a bite at small, it will gain 2 wings as well at medium. Abyssal Drake gets either 2 claws and a rend, or a bite and a sting. The Shadow Dragon will have a higher BAB and a size bonus to hit, the Abyssal Drake has a much higher Str due to its size. The Shadow Dragon will be getting +2 to hit and denying opponents their Dex and Dodge bonuses to AC due to shadow blend, as though the opponent were blind. The shadow dragon can take the feat Rapidstrike from the Draconomicon to gain additional claw attacks. The shadow dragon will have a better AC and potentially higher HP, plus total concealment, plus UMD for Wands of Cure spells. The abyssal drake may be able to kill opponents more quickly, but against something that it can't reliably hit, such as a shadow dragon, it's likely to lose.