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bosssmiley
2008-09-23, 03:11 PM
Some of you may be interested in this:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080922

High Mage Epic Destiny
Harper of Legend Epic Destiny
Mythic Sovereign Epic Destiny

As a matter of personal opinion the Mythic Sovereign is anything but mythic or epic. Both BECMI D&D and AD&D gave you the lvl 30 capstone feature as a standard class ability at around 9th level. Even more egregiously: Rich Baker (the man responsible for the above destinies) once created the "Birthright" setting, a place where you got abilities on a par with the Mythic Sovereign's entire suite of abilities - yes, including the crown - at 1st level character creation.

It seems that a timorous failure of imaginative grandeur afflicts the upper reaches of 4th Edition. Call me strangely old-fashioned, but I don't want the story to end when the new king crowns himself and proclaims "By this axe, I rule!": for me that's when the real fun stuff begins. :smallannoyed:

Isomenes
2008-09-23, 03:31 PM
Wow, more Epic destinies for FR that utterly fail to hold my attention. :smallsigh:

Somehow I'm not holding out much hope for Martial Power's ability to put out epic destinies. I'll probably just homebrew one as I originally intended. It's a shame, too, because the concept is sort of neat. But the execution has been mediocre so far.

Edit: Bossman, curse you for ninja-editing me in the OP!

mostlyharmful
2008-09-23, 03:38 PM
Yep, translating epic destinies into mechanics seems to be very difficult in a system obsessed with balance.

RTGoodman
2008-09-23, 03:54 PM
Well, I for one think the Harper of Legend seems pretty good, even if I don't care much about 4E. Gain an extra encounter power (even at level - 6)? Yes, please! Extra action points, and extra uses per encounter? Definitely! Turning into a semi-ghost thing once a day? Well, that's not that cool, but it's almost like the Archmage's ability anyway and could have some uses.

The other two, though, I don't really like. The Mythic Sovereign, especially, seems mostly "meh."

DM Raven
2008-09-23, 04:01 PM
Hey guys, I was reading over the epic destinies and I'm confused about what's wrong with them? Is there some FR lore I don't know they are going against or do you just want them to be more powerfull. Seems about on par with what the other epic destinies do.

Isomenes
2008-09-23, 04:10 PM
Yep, translating epic destinies into mechanics seems to be very difficult in a system obsessed with balance.

Nah, it's just that nothing more than mediocre has come up yet. I wouldn't say it's particularly difficult--but the best stuff always comes out when you work with your DM anyway, which is not something that WotC can provide out of the box.


Hey guys, I was reading over the epic destinies and I'm confused about what's wrong with them? Is there some FR lore I don't know they are going against or do you just want them to be more powerfull. Seems about on par with what the other epic destinies do.

It's not that they're particularly terrible as much as none of the epic destinies really get me excited. Demigod is perhaps the best of the lot, but it's got a very specific flavor that limits its appeal.

Zocelot
2008-09-23, 04:36 PM
It's not that they're particularly terrible as much as none of the epic destinies really get me excited. Demigod is perhaps the best of the lot, but it's got a very specific flavor that limits its appeal.

I feel that the fluff for Demigods is the most versatile of the EDs. All your character needs is to want a lot of power. What you do with it is up to you.

What I don't like about nearly all the EDs is the "Immortality" section. It completely dictates what you do after you get to level 30. Maybe my Archmage doesn't want to live a life in solitude in the middle of the Elemental Chaos.

DM Raven
2008-09-23, 04:36 PM
Level 30 characters are pretty badass without paragon or epic flavor paths. With those added the high-level characters are semi-unstoppable...especially with 4e's lack of save or die effects. It almost seems too powerful when viewed from far.

I'm actually excited to try high-level gaming for 4e...seems like the first system that may actually make high-level DMing fun.

Blackfang108
2008-09-23, 04:41 PM
What I don't like about nearly all the EDs is the "Immortality" section. It completely dictates what you do after you get to level 30. Maybe my Archmage doesn't want to live a life in solitude in the middle of the Elemental Chaos.

for the phb EpDs, it specifically states that those are examples, not dictations.

Yakk
2008-09-23, 04:54 PM
As a matter of personal opinion the Mythic Sovereign is anything but mythic or epic. Both BECMI D&D and AD&D gave you the lvl 30 capstone feature as a standard class ability at around 9th level.

Hmm? BECMI has encounter powers?

That capstone power kicks ass -- you attach it to an area attack encounter power, and then you can spam it on any large number of targets.


Even more egregiously: Rich Baker (the man responsible for the above destinies) once created the "Birthright" setting, a place where you got abilities on a par with the Mythic Sovereign's entire suite of abilities - yes, including the crown - at 1st level character creation.

Hurm? In Birthright, at level 1, you could give every ally within 50 feet of you a free attack?


It seems that a timorous failure of imaginative grandeur afflicts the upper reaches of 4th Edition. Call me strangely old-fashioned, but I don't want the story to end when the new king crowns himself and proclaims "By this axe, I rule!": for me that's when the real fun stuff begins. :smallannoyed:

The real end is "you are destined to return in the hour of your land's greatest need". Mythic Ruler is based off of the Arthur idea.

If you fold these things into a campaign, you can move them more front and center. As written, it is easy to not make it front and center, but rather a side-feature of the plot, if the PCs and DM want that.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-23, 05:23 PM
I'm actually excited to try high-level gaming for 4e...seems like the first system that may actually make high-level DMing fun.

Other than, say, Exalted, or Amber DRP, or the Vampire Elders handbook... :smallbiggrin:

potatocubed
2008-09-23, 05:39 PM
Other than, say, Exalted, or Amber DRP, or the Vampire Elders handbook... :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, once I'd played and run Exalted everything 'epic' in D&D has just failed to measure up. =/

Anyway... [/derail]

DM Raven
2008-09-23, 05:55 PM
Yeah, once I'd played and run Exalted everything 'epic' in D&D has just failed to measure up. =/

Anyway... [/derail]


D&D has never had good game rules for any of the previous editions to run high-level characters. First, second, or 3.x games all get incredibly boring for me as a DM once the characters get above level 15...its boring because either the PCs are in no danger or they could die any second if they happen to fail a saving throw. Basically high-level battles are decided by the first several rounds...no fights are really tactical beyond the first few choices you make or perhaps the choices you make leading up to the battle.

Maybe playing a high-level is character is fun, but DMing a high level campaign is boring in any of the previous rule editions...at least in the case of combat.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-23, 06:46 PM
Nah, it's just that nothing more than mediocre has come up yet. I wouldn't say it's particularly difficult--but the best stuff always comes out when you work with your DM anyway, which is not something that WotC can provide out of the box.

When nothing more than mediocre has come up in high end epic level game system You've got to re-examine the game system at least at that level. These ED don't really fire up any reaction to me, they don't seem to fire up any for you. It's mediocre, it's also the top end of what My pcs are supposed to aspiire to. Woo. Big woop. Let me go get my big foam hand so I can chant along and show my interest in these. Woooooooooooo:smallannoyed:

Gralamin
2008-09-23, 06:56 PM
Just out of interest (and possibly homebrewing results), what sort of things would you want to see an epic destiny do?

Isomenes
2008-09-23, 06:59 PM
When nothing more than mediocre has come up in high end epic level game system You've got to re-examine the game system at least at that level. These ED don't really fire up any reaction to me, they don't seem to fire up any for you. It's mediocre, it's also the top end of what My pcs are supposed to aspiire to. Woo. Big woop. Let me go get my big foam hand so I can chant along and show my interest in these. Woooooooooooo:smallannoyed:

Well, it's not like we don't know that the designers don't know the possibilities of their own system. The extent to which their efforts fail to impress me does not indicate the heights said system is capable of. It just requires a little more imagination.

Isomenes
2008-09-23, 07:03 PM
Just out of interest (and possibly homebrewing results), what sort of things would you want to see an epic destiny do?

I've got several things in mind. Opening up class features at the cost of other class features strikes me as an interesting way to start. My first thought was to open up Channel Divinity, allowing a character burn uses of other encounter powers to have more uses of it. This would have been a far more awesome feature for the FR Chosen. And that's just for starters.

Townopolis
2008-09-23, 07:04 PM
I liked Mythic Sovereign. Among all the EDs out so far, it's unique. It has a definite and very appreciable Arthurian feel to it, and it makes a nice finishing touch to the adventuring career of any knight, estranged noble's child, or peasant insurgent.

I find the argument that its uninspiring because another game gives you everything from level 1 to be kind of silly. Some people mentioned Exalted, that gives you pretty much any epic destiny from level 1, but that doesn't make the Demigod ED uninspiring.

Also, Mythic Sovereign goes beyond mere kingship. You can get your crown at level 11 and still gain character advancement through the ED. A lot of kings suck, a lot of kings do nothing good during their reign. Taking the Mythic Sovereign destiny is simply pursuing that aspect of your character further, and when he's done you get to say "and then everyone in my kingdom lives happily ever after because that's how awesome a king I am." You can be a wizard at level 1, but going Archmage anoints you the uber-wizard. Taking Mythic Sovereign anoints you the uber-king.

High Mage annoyed me. It's another representation of the "elves do everything better" idea that usually serves to pretty much piss me off completely. I actually didn't read beyond the requirements, so I make no judgement on the actual functionality of the ED, it just aggravated me on a purely subjective personal level.

Harper of Legend also made me happy. It seems like a less bombastic demigod. Some players want their characters to live their lives as mighty heroes, but stay essentially mortal. Sometimes they don't qualify for Epic Trickster and find Eternal Seeker unappealing. In a situation like this, The Harper of Legend fills in nicely, and it does this especially well in terms of mechanics. Action points and bonus encounter powers seem pretty action-hero to me. The capstone is somewhat of a step back, but if it bugs you, fluff it more along the lines of the Mythic Sovereign's level 24 ability.

It helps (for me) that I prefer not to play in FR and can ignore all the Harper Society fluff.

DM Raven
2008-09-23, 07:45 PM
Action points and bonus encounter powers seem pretty action-hero to me.


I dunno, I thought the action point power was kinda weak. I mean, how often do you even fight enemies who use action points? Maybe more at high level, but my games are up to level 6 already and I think in all that time we've fought one enemy who used action points. I would have liked it better if they were just allowed two action points per combat.

Matthew
2008-09-23, 07:48 PM
Call me strangely old-fashioned, but I don't want the story to end when the new king crowns himself and proclaims "By this axe, I rule!": for me that's when the real fun stuff begins. :smallannoyed:

Ha, ha. A Kull the Conqueror reference, I do believe. :smallbiggrin:

RTGoodman
2008-09-23, 07:50 PM
I dunno, I thought the action point power was kinda weak. I mean, how often do you even fight enemies who use action points? Maybe more at high level, but my games are up to level 6 already and I think in all that time we've fought one enemy who used action points. I would have liked it better if they were just allowed two action points per combat.

Every Elite and Solo monster has action points and should use them. The monsters aren't going to last past the encounter (for the most part) so you don't need (as a DM) to worry about saving them. And since a good deal of encounters should have Elites and Solos (to give a good mix and keep players on their toes), there should be ample opportunity to get use out of the Harper's ability.

Colmarr
2008-09-23, 09:44 PM
When nothing more than mediocre has come up in high end epic level game system You've got to re-examine the game system at least at that level. These ED don't really fire up any reaction to me, they don't seem to fire up any for you. It's mediocre, it's also the top end of what My pcs are supposed to aspiire to. Woo. Big woop. Let me go get my big foam hand so I can chant along and show my interest in these. Woooooooooooo:smallannoyed:

This is a problem caused by the disconnect between fluff and mechanics.

Any impressive fluff is either (a) matched by impressive mechanics, or (b) not matched by mechanics.

(a) leads to the sort of crazy high-level combat that caused so many gamers and DMs to avoid high-level 3e play like the plague.

(b) leads to somewhat ho-hum powers being allocated to supposedly "apex" PCs.

I personally prefer option (b) as balance is quite a big issue for me personally. And to take it a step further, I don't agree that the EDs are mediocre. Almost all of them have a "once per day; don't die" ability and that seems pretty epic to me. Anyone who can shrug off a hit from Orcus' skull wand or Yeenoghlu's flail is pretty 'wow!' in my book.

That's not to say that I think all of the ED powers are great. From a personal perspective (I play a cleric of Tempus), I was very disappointed with the utility power that Chosen of Tempus provides. How much of a difference is 16 damage going to make to Orcus if he has 1500 hp? Or even to a non-solo (who at level 30 probably has 300+ hp).

But specific powers aside, I think that the EDs provide just the right amount of 'awesomeness'.

Edea
2008-09-23, 11:21 PM
1) High Magic
2) Ritualist's Ring
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Grey Watcher
2008-09-23, 11:39 PM
Not sure how I feel about the rest, but when I read Mythic Sovereign's capstone ability, I wanted to see if I could find some nifty power with the Reliable keyword to pair it up with. That way it essentially becomes an At-Will (since Reliable means it's not expended on a miss, while the ED means it's not expended on a hit....) Anyway, I don't think there are any Reliable powers of nearly high enough level for this to really be a problem, but it was an interesting potential exploit I saw.

Oh, and I found it really, really odd that it has a class restriction. No love for a Cleric turned Philospher-King? Ixnay on the Izardway Ingkay? I realize that they were trying to make an ED for Aragorn (or, as some have pointed out, King Arthur), but wouldn't it be better to leave it open for other sorts of rulers to come to the fore? (Unless maybe they figured Divine and Arcane characters already have an unfair share of Epic Destinies and were specifically trying to give love to the Martial people.)

Blackfang108
2008-09-24, 08:33 AM
From a personal perspective (I play a cleric of Tempus), I was very disappointed with the utility power that Chosen of Tempus provides. How much of a difference is 16 damage going to make to Orcus if he has 1500 hp? Or even to a non-solo (who at level 30 probably has 300+ hp).

Be happy. At least you can be a chosen of Tempus.

In the campaign I am currently in, story-wise, Chosen of the Raven Queen would make perfect sense. Of course, there was no love for RQ worshippers in FR.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-24, 09:07 AM
Not sure how I feel about the rest, but when I read Mythic Sovereign's capstone ability, I wanted to see if I could find some nifty power with the Reliable keyword to pair it up with. That way it essentially becomes an At-Will (since Reliable means it's not expended on a miss, while the ED means it's not expended on a hit....) Anyway, I don't think there are any Reliable powers of nearly high enough level for this to really be a problem

I don't think level-30 abilities can be considered unbalancing at all, given that they only ever come up near the very end of a campaign that even gets to that level (which, assumedly, most campaigns won't).

Yakk
2008-09-24, 09:30 AM
Reliable and half-damage-on-miss are (always?) reserved for Daily powers, so they aren't fully wasted from a single missed d20 roll.

At this point, it seems to be a hard design decision.

SadisticFishing
2008-09-24, 11:54 AM
If you're looking for an ability like "You never miss", realize that you may be super epic, but so is everything you're fighting.

More options, that are epic, is what Epic Destinies are about. Getting back powers, being nigh unkillable, turning any attack into a critical hit, forcing your DM to miss on crits...

These are all epic abilities in their own right. Epic Destiny is not about what you do, so it has no attack powers - it's about what you are. So it gives powers that make you better and more awesome, without making your base class meaningless.

I mean, do we really want a Demigod Strike? "Any stat VS Fort, Hit: Kill your target instantly, reliable". Boring.

Mando Knight
2008-09-24, 12:03 PM
Oh, and I found it really, really odd that it has a class restriction. No love for a Cleric turned Philospher-King? Ixnay on the Izardway Ingkay? I realize that they were trying to make an ED for Aragorn (or, as some have pointed out, King Arthur), but wouldn't it be better to leave it open for other sorts of rulers to come to the fore? (Unless maybe they figured Divine and Arcane characters already have an unfair share of Epic Destinies and were specifically trying to give love to the Martial people.)

I think that he's assuming that a cleric going for the threefold mantle of Prophet-Priest-King and the Wizard ruling over a land with arcane might will multi into one of the more martial classes... (Wizard-Warlord, Cleric-Paladin or Cleric-Ranger, etc.)

Colmarr
2008-09-24, 05:10 PM
In the campaign I am currently in, story-wise, Chosen of the Raven Queen would make perfect sense. Of course, there was no love for RQ worshippers in FR.

Refluff Chosen of Kelemvor?

Yakk
2008-09-25, 09:30 AM
Always remember minion mechanics.

Almost every monster 6 or more levels under you is reduced to a minion.

Just from your level, you gain the power to kill it with a single solid blow.

All of your other powers, the damage they do, is measured against epic-scale enemies. A power that is "save or die" has to be save or die vs Orcus, the demon prince primodeal, because _you have that power against any creature significantly weaker than Orcus_.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 09:38 AM
Always remember minion mechanics.

Almost every monster 6 or more levels under you is reduced to a minion.

Just from your level, you gain the power to kill it with a single solid blow.

All of your other powers, the damage they do, is measured against epic-scale enemies. A power that is "save or die" has to be save or die vs Orcus, the demon prince primodeal, because _you have that power against any creature significantly weaker than Orcus_.

Really? At level 30 you do 200 damage with a single power every time you use it?

I must be missing something big somewhere.

Gralamin
2008-09-25, 10:13 AM
Always remember minion mechanics.

Almost every monster 6 or more levels under you is reduced to a minion.

Just from your level, you gain the power to kill it with a single solid blow.

I haven't actually seen that bit. Could you give a book/page reference?

Yakk
2008-09-25, 10:19 AM
At level 30, a level 24 opponent should be turned into a level 30ish minion.

You are not supposed to encounter opponents more than +/-5ish levels from you -- but they still exist. When you encounter them, the DM can either say "it was no challenge", or can use minion mechanics to create minionized versions of the monsters.

Look at the encounter building part of the game -- monsters more than a 5 level window away from your PCs are not supposed to be used in encounters. And you can take lower level opponents and turn them into higher level minions.

When you hit a minion, what happens?

And yes, the borders at which an opponent goes from "low level normal monster" to "minion" are fuzzy. That's ok.

Gralamin
2008-09-25, 10:22 AM
At level 30, a level 24 opponent should be turned into a level 30ish minion.

You are not supposed to encounter opponents more than +/-5ish levels from you -- but they still exist. When you encounter them, the DM can either say "it was no challenge", or can use minion mechanics to create minionized versions of the monsters.

Look at the encounter building part of the game -- monsters more than a 5 level window away from your PCs are not supposed to be used in encounters. And you can take lower level opponents and turn them into higher level minions.

When you hit a minion, what happens?

And yes, the borders at which an opponent goes from "low level normal monster" to "minion" are fuzzy. That's ok.

Ah, so just a good application of the rules as they exist. Makes sense.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 10:40 AM
At level 30, a level 24 opponent should be turned into a level 30ish minion.

You are not supposed to encounter opponents more than +/-5ish levels from you -- but they still exist. When you encounter them, the DM can either say "it was no challenge", or can use minion mechanics to create minionized versions of the monsters.

Look at the encounter building part of the game -- monsters more than a 5 level window away from your PCs are not supposed to be used in encounters. And you can take lower level opponents and turn them into higher level minions.

When you hit a minion, what happens?

And yes, the borders at which an opponent goes from "low level normal monster" to "minion" are fuzzy. That's ok.

Okay, so you don't one shot monsters 5 levels below you, you just pretend you do. I see.

The only problem is that there are only 7 non elite/solo/minion monsters that are less then 5 levels beneath you. And few of them work well together. So every fight would have to be pretty damn generic if you limit yourself to things within 5 levels.

Yakk
2008-09-25, 01:15 PM
Yes, there is a massive shortage of opponents for level 30 characters within 3 months of the release of 4th edition.

There is, however, an entire section of the DMG dedicated to "how to make a monster" and "how to boost a monster's level".

It isn't that tricky. :-)

So if you are skipping all the way to 30th before the 2nd MM comes out, your DM will probably have to write up new opponents.

And no, I'm not pretending -- the game explicitly states that monsters significantly below your level should not be used in a combat, and either implicitly or explicitly states that minions are a mechanical representation of lower-level mook mobs designed for balanced combat at higher levels.

Yes, your DM can throw level 21 normal monsters against a level 30 character -- but the fight will consists of "the monster missed again, why am I bothering to roll to hit?" and "you hit again -- why are you bothering to roll to hit?" Any real challenge that they would present would be more along the lines of boredom, or some no-hit-roll powers, or other cheese.

Wolfpack
2008-09-25, 04:34 PM
Yes, your DM can throw level 21 normal monsters against a level 30 character -- but the fight will consists of "the monster missed again, why am I bothering to roll to hit?" and "you hit again -- why are you bothering to roll to hit?" Any real challenge that they would present would be more along the lines of boredom, or some no-hit-roll powers, or other cheese.

Well I don't know about AC, but as far as I can tell the best possible to hit at level 30 is:

+15 level + 6 magic + 5 starting attribute +5 attributes leveling up. And that assumes starting 18, racial bonus, ad Demigod for maximum attack.

So that's +31 vs the average level 25 creature: with defenses ranging from 32-42, with emphasis on the higher end of that.

So it seems in practice you have a little better then 50% chance of hitting an opponent five levels below you. And I would imagine much the same is true of them hitting you, except in reverse. And that's not including Elites or Solos.

It appears that fighting creatures 6 levels below you is pretty similar to fighting level 10 creatures at level 12.

Blackfang108
2008-09-25, 04:50 PM
Refluff Chosen of Kelemvor?

Might work, except my DM's trying to stick to RAW for now.

at level 3, I've got time to convince him otherwise, if we even survive that long. (I have a bounty on my head. Yay...)

when I next get a look at the book, I'll reread it.

I don't know much about Faerun.

Grey Watcher
2008-09-25, 05:14 PM
Might work, except my DM's trying to stick to RAW for now.

at level 3, I've got time to convince him otherwise, if we even survive that long. (I have a bounty on my head. Yay...)

when I next get a look at the book, I'll reread it.

I don't know much about Faerun.

Well, Kelemvor and the Raven Queen are pretty similar deities, so they should grant similar powers. Both are Unaligned Gods of Death, both disapprove of the undead. Both are about properly sheperding the dead to their ultimate destinations. I don't see how it's deviating significantly from RAW to just take Chosen of Kelemvor and swap in the words "the Raven Queen" every time the book mentions Kelemvor and change the pronouns appropriately).