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newbDM
2008-09-23, 04:56 PM
Hey,

I am trying to stat out some NPC mercenaries and other lower level NPC mooks (or possible allies), but I am running into some seriously conflicting results when trying to see how much wealth/gear they should have.

For example, I was just trying to stat out a group of 10 2nd level warforged fighters and 40 1st level warforged warriors who are currently on one of my PC's payroll.

According to Table: 4-23 NPC Gear Value on p.127 of the 3.5 DMG it says:


A Lv.2 NPC (a Fighter in this case) (CR 2 I believe) should have 2,000gp of gear.
A Lv.1 NPC (a Warrior in this case) (CR 1 I believe) should have 900gp of gear.



However, when I calculate the treasure a PC should get for killing such an NPC (using this quick program http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) I get the following

A CR 2 encounter should give 600gp.
A CR 1 encounter should give 300gp.



I am confident that I am missing something here. Odds are I am making a big error somewhere, but I have no clue how or why. Can you guys please help me?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-23, 05:30 PM
Disposable items.

Arbitrarity
2008-09-23, 05:43 PM
NPC's are intended to have more treasure than normal encounters. This is because they use their gear, and they need a decent amount to measure up in CR. Therefore, you either need to limit the number of NPC encounters, have them give out less than normal loot with buffed stats to compensate, or use a lot of single-use items.

Also, an encounter with just VoP Druids and swordsages.

Lemur
2008-09-23, 05:45 PM
NPC's gear is their treasure, and is supposed to be greater than normal monster treasure. Don't be alarmed, this is intentional; the rationale being that better gear will make them harder to defeat, meaning PCs still have to work appropriately to earn the treasure. That's how the theory goes, anyway.

In other words, your calculations are correct, the rules just had a bit of nuance to them that you missed, is all. Not a big deal, it happens to everyone sooner or later.

That said, the gear values in the book are just suggested, nothing says you have to equip every NPC with the same cash value. If you think that someone has more stuff than they should have, or not enough, feel free to do what feels right.

newbDM
2008-09-23, 06:35 PM
I am sorry, but now I am somewhat more confused.


NPC's are intended to have more treasure than normal encounters. This is because they use their gear, and they need a decent amount to measure up in CR. Therefore, you either need to limit the number of NPC encounters, have them give out less than normal loot with buffed stats to compensate, or use a lot of single-use items.

Also, an encounter with just VoP Druids and swordsages.

So I need to use mostly monsters that don't have gear or items/treasure/coins?

That seems to limit you quite a bit.

I am actually trying to run a more political type of campaign with more civilized/advanced groups on groups, and even troop on troop battles, so this might be a big problem for me.

Also, I always disliked pure "monsters" games.



NPC's gear is their treasure, and is supposed to be greater than normal monster treasure. Don't be alarmed, this is intentional; the rationale being that better gear will make them harder to defeat, meaning PCs still have to work appropriately to earn the treasure. That's how the theory goes, anyway.

In other words, your calculations are correct, the rules just had a bit of nuance to them that you missed, is all. Not a big deal, it happens to everyone sooner or later.

That said, the gear values in the book are just suggested, nothing says you have to equip every NPC with the same cash value. If you think that someone has more stuff than they should have, or not enough, feel free to do what feels right.

This has me confused.

So these aren't monsters/encounters I am stating?

Am I making CR encounters which are actually higher by just using the NPC wealth listed in the same book?

Wait, what is the main distinction between monsters and NPCs? I think that might be a factor in my problem.

Also, is NPC wealth meant only for plot important BBEG and their Sub Bosses? Am I in error for using this chart for basic ground troops?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-23, 06:41 PM
NPC opponents generally have more loot than most enemies of the equivalent CR. This is balanced by the large number of Oozes, Undead, Animals, and Plants that don't carry any loot. If you're campaign will have a large number of humanoid opponents, to keep the PCs in check, have a large portion of their loot be in disposable items that get used and the like(potions and scrolls are the easiest), or have a reason why the PCs don't get all of it(looting fallen soldiers is usually looked down on by the higher-ups after battles, the PCs are forced to flee the area due to reinforcements). Also remember that the PCs may well gain XP but no GP from beating social encounters, so their opponents can drop more to make up for that.

Baron Corm
2008-09-23, 07:22 PM
Monsters don't always give all their worn items as treasure. You are allowed to deem some of it broken by the battle, or custom-fit to that NPC, etc. Some supernatural monsters bypass this by having their worn items summoned magically, or only work for them for some magic reason.

Also, if you really want the players to feel cool by taking their foe's +3 sword, just lower the treasure gained for the next encounter. A lot of monsters give no treasure at all.

Edit: Also what Sstoopid said.

BRC
2008-09-23, 07:28 PM
The Treasure system is generally fairly messed up. It seems simple at first, but it's inheriently self-contradictory.


A certain CR is supposed to give X treasure, this is all calculated so that PC's will have an appropriate amount of wealth as they reach various levels. The amount of treasure gained is supposed to reflect the difficulty of the encounter. However, you run into creatures with treasure listed as "Double Standard", meaning they give twice as much treasure as somthing of their CR normally would. This means that simply by merit of the DM picking certain monsters the Pc's get twice as much treasure as they should. It's essentially saying "Use these guidelines, except when we decide you shouldnt!".

Cuddly
2008-09-23, 07:31 PM
Remember that the looted +1 battleaxe that your greatsword spec'd fighter wouldn't use is also sold for 1/2 market value.

Colmarr
2008-09-23, 10:12 PM
So I need to use mostly monsters that don't have gear or items/treasure/coins?

That seems to limit you quite a bit.

I am actually trying to run a more political type of campaign with more civilized/advanced groups on groups, and even troop on troop battles, so this might be a big problem for me.

Also, I always disliked pure "monsters" games.

Unfortunately, yes.

3e requires you to give NPCs above-average loot if they are to provide appropriate challenges to your party. Unfortunately if you wish to use humanoids frequently this leads to either (a) your PCs getting too much experience if you don't equip NPCs as expected (ie. the encounters become too easy), or (b) your PCs getting too much wealth if you do equip the NPCs as expected.

4e goes some way to addressing this issue because opponents don't need magical toys to be effective. The bonuses are built into their stats and can't be looted by the PCs after the combat is over.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-23, 10:19 PM
4e goes some way to addressing this issue because opponents don't need magical toys to be effective. The bonuses are built into their stats and can't be looted by the PCs after the combat is over.The problem with this is the players going "Wait, someone needs a magic sword even to hurt me. How'd the drow manage to get that hit? I want to loot their corpse and get the weapon."

afroakuma
2008-09-23, 10:24 PM
MY recommendation would be to gear the NPCs the way players are geared; if it's a loot encounter, add some disposable items, wondrous items or maybe a nice magic weapon/armor. If it's a filler encounter, a mook combat etc. but you still need to make it a good challenge, make them with no better than masterwork equips and appropriate lesser items and give them the benefit of combat layout, terrain, etc.

After all, they are the encounter. Everything that is not the PCs was placed specifically to bother the PCs.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-23, 10:30 PM
NPCs, just like PCs, base a lot of their power on their gear. A level 2 Fighter in +1 Full Plate with a +1 Heavy Shield and a Masterwork martial weapon will be much better off than a level 5 Fighter in Hide armor with a barrel lid for a light shield and an improvised Club. Similarly, well-geared NPCs are a more appropriate challenge than poorly geared NPCs.

I usually give NPC opponents 1-4 types of potions each, at least 2-3 of each potion. For example, an NPC Fighter may have three Potions of Bull's Strength, two Potions of Protection from Arrows, four Potions of Cure Moderate Wounds, and two Potions of Invisibility. He'll undoubtedly use at least one of the Bull's Strength potions before or at the beginning of the fight, probably at least one Cure potion if he gets worried, and he'd down an Invisibility potion and try to escape if he's about to die, drinking another Cure potion if the PCs manage to pursue. If he has only one of a given potion, he's probably not going to use it unless he's sure he'll need it, plus if the PCs manage to kill him he'll not have used up all of their "loot" during the fight.

Depending on how much gear they get I'll usually give them Cure Light or Moderate potions first, buff/protection potions second, and situational or escape potions last. Opponents who rely on physical ability scores would get buff potions, enemy spellcasters would probably get Barkskin or Shield of Faith potions, archer-type opponents would probably have Fly and/or Protection from Arrows, situational potions would include Protection from Arrows and Protection from Evil, escape would be Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, or Fly, etc. Just imagine if you were playing that NPC in a one-shot 3-5 encounter adventure, what potions/items would you pick for them? Remember that hearing a combat is a DC 0 Listen check, but count the -1 penalty per 10 feet and/or through walls and doors. Any guards who hear the PCs approaching will probably buff up ahead of time, especially considering that the PCs will likely begin the fight already buffed.


Also keep in mind that NPC opponents and double- or triple-loot monsters are there to make up for no-loot encounters such as oozes, undead, plants, (dire) animals, magical beasts, etc.

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-26, 05:21 PM
I am actually trying to run a more political type of campaign with more civilized/advanced groups on groups, and even troop on troop battles, so this might be a big problem for me.
That being the case, how often will enemy gear fall into the PCs' hands?

Dungeon delvers get to keep all the treasure they find because they go outside the society they live in to lay claim to things that their society doesn't recognize as anyone's legal property. If you kill someone inside of a city, you're less likely to be able to loot his corpse and get away with it. Possibly because you need to flee the scene quickly in order to get away with killing him in the first place.

Gaiwecoor
2008-09-26, 05:35 PM
Another option you can use in addition to the above, is to assume the NPCs actually escape most of the time. If the PCs only destroy the NPCs one third of the time (and thus obtain the equipment), then the numbers for Level 1 NPCs are right on, and it's pretty close for the Level 2 NPCs, as well.