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View Full Version : What was Kingdoms of Kalamar?



Pollip
2008-09-23, 07:01 PM
Hey, I've got a guestion! I see these Kingdoms of Kalamar books all the time at the used bookstore, and usually thumb through them out of curiosity. So far, what I've gleaned is that it was some kind of 3.0 campaign setting. Did I get it right? Is it just some setting that never caught on? Or is there some kind of cataclysmic secret that the Kingdoms of Kalamar hold, and everyone who Knows has been sworn to secrecy? I hope that's what it is.

Also. How do you personally pronounce bulette, the land shark thing from the monster manual. I've heard it pronounced boo-let (emphasis on the boo), bu-lett (emphasis on the lett), and even bullet (like the projectile). Just wondering.

Ashdate
2008-09-23, 07:09 PM
Kingdoms of Kalamar was made by the Knights of the Dinner Table guys, Kenzer and Company (they also did the D&D comic book that sprouted up around the time of 3e I believe, and Hackmaster, which is probably more awesome in theory than in practice but whatever).

It was originally two books that, at least according to the wiki, were books that provided a fantasy setting, most likely to use with D&D. When 3e came around they published an official 3e version of KoK.

I uh, have nothing after that.

- Eddie

Matthew
2008-09-23, 07:12 PM
The Kingdoms of Kalamar was the only officially licensed Dungeons & Dragons D20/3e campaign setting not produced by Wizards of the Coast. It was put out by Kenzer & Company, who are perhaps most famous for Hack Master and Knights of the Dinner table. The Kingdoms of Kalamar were originally produced for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (and other settings) without an official license, and for D20/4e Kenzer & Company have reverted to that practice. A few months back the D20/4e version of the Kingdoms of Kalamar camapign setting was released. You can read a little about that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85181).

JaxGaret
2008-09-23, 10:40 PM
I haven't used it yet, but it looks like a great D&D setting. The atlas is fantastic.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-23, 11:00 PM
I played with a group that used Kingdoms of Kalamar back in 3.0, and I thought it was a great setting. IIRC there were 3.5 updates posted online, or 3.5 versions printed or something, but I haven't looked into it for quite a long time. There were a lot of module adventures printed for it, probably enough to take a party from 1-20. If you can find quite a few used it'd be a great ticket to easy/introductory DMing, they should be easy to update to 3.5.

RTGoodman
2008-09-24, 12:06 AM
The Kingdoms of Kalamar was the only officially licensed Dungeons & Dragons D20/3e campaign setting not produced by Wizards of the Coast.

I'm pretty sure Sovereign Press did all the Dragonlance stuff besides the Campaign Setting and were officially licensed (seeing as how their license got pulled last year or earlier this year, I think), but that's a bit off topic.


On topic, has anyone actually picked up the KoK 4E stuff yet? I read a bit about it when it debuted (in the thread linked above), but I haven't seen it anywhere I could thumb through it and check it out.

charl
2008-09-24, 03:25 AM
I'm pretty sure Sovereign Press did all the Dragonlance stuff besides the Campaign Setting and were officially licensed (seeing as how their license got pulled last year or earlier this year, I think), but that's a bit off topic.


On topic, has anyone actually picked up the KoK 4E stuff yet? I read a bit about it when it debuted (in the thread linked above), but I haven't seen it anywhere I could thumb through it and check it out.

White wolf did Ravenloft.

Matthew
2008-09-24, 04:09 AM
I'm pretty sure Sovereign Press did all the Dragonlance stuff besides the Campaign Setting and were officially licensed (seeing as how their license got pulled last year or earlier this year, I think), but that's a bit off topic.



White wolf did Ravenloft.

Kind of correct. I should have said: "The Kingdoms of Kalamar was the only officially licensed Dungeons & Dragons D20/3e campaign setting not owned by Wizards of the Coast." The hour was rather late, so you'll have to forgive the error. :smallwink:

The Dragonlance and Ravenloft settings were licensed from Wizards of the Coast. However, you will notice that neither were allowed to make use of the Dungeons & Dragons logo when produced by a third party, unlike Kingdoms of Kalamar. They were not official Dungeons & Dragons products.

hamlet
2008-09-24, 07:20 AM
<shill>

Kingdoms of Kalamar (also known as "KOK") is a great setting.

The main campaign setting book and atlas (the only two you really need to play, though the two versions of the player's guide help somewhat) are virtually systemless and are definately worth getting even if you don't want to play in that setting. The best thing I can do to give the setting justice is this: pick up the campaign setting book, open to any single page at random up to and including the table of contents and index, you will find at least 3 possible adventure hooks, and no two people will find the same three. Even if you don't want to use the setting, there are a lot of good city descriptions including geography, demography, basic industry, underworld (i.e., criminal) activities, notable NPC's, local sages/mages, and so much more.

The history laid out in the setting is, to me and a lot of other people, compelling and well laid out. Yes, it is inspired heavily by classic Earth history in that you could potentially say that the Kalamarans are analagous to the Romans/Greek and the Svimhozians are the Africans and you'd be technically correct. However, these races, though they start at this point, are given all their own unique history and depth that makes them into their own entities.

In terms of what "style" of game the setting supports, that's simple: any style you want. If you want high fantasy and high magic, heroes saving the world from otherworldly threats, it fits just fine. You want rough and gritty, heroes holding off the dread things in the wilderness, protecting civilization by the skin of their teeth, it works. Political? Works very well. War? HUGE potential. Pulp fiction? Conan would feel right at home in any number of locations. Exploration and discovery? All over the freakin' place.

If you want D&D rules, the setting will provide. There are a lot of supplements and accessories that have a good healthy dose of it, but also have enough non-rules material to keep us old fogey's happy. I particularly reccommend "Strength and Honor" to anybody picking up the books.

The 4th edition book is, by all reports, great, virtually identical to the 3rd edition books with only a sparing few 4th edition rules thrown in to appease. It also includes the atlas. There's a free preview of it (16 full pages I think) over at here at the website (http://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?cPath=25_28_43&products_id=625). Definately interesting stuff.

Another thing that's nice is that it's very inspring. There's a fellow who wrote out what I consider to be the definitive imperial history of Kalamar and expanded its material for his game that, if I can ever get time and enough suckers (er players) together I will shamelessly steal. Head here to read it. (http://www.geocities.com/cmellare/)

For those that actually care, I make the following recommendations for anybody wanting to get into the setting.

1) Minimum is the Campaign Setting, the Atlas, and the Player's Primer. You can game for, pretty much, forever with just these books. The Dijishy and Zoa city books are recent and fabulous additions, even if you aren't playing in Kalamar.

2) Up from that, I'd grab hold of the Player's Guide 3.5 edition, even if you don't play 3.5. Add in the Tomb of Kruk Ma Kali and any or all of the Friend and Foe books along with Strength and Honor and Fury in the Wasteland. Most of all, at this level, I'd recommend Divine Masters, the book containing all the new info about the pantheon and specialist clerics and ranks within the church and a metric fertalizer ton load of campaign ideas per page.

3) Any of the adventure compilations. They have 4 or so shortish adventures in them that are definately worth grabbing if you can locate them.

4) Those looking for a slightly wierder bit of fun can and should pick up "Beneath the Waves" which details the mermish kingdom off the shores of the Elos Desert.

These books, which are for the most part out of print now but still around, are very much worth the money.

Go buy them now.

</shill>

Okay, I promise not to do that again.

Hzurr
2008-09-24, 11:00 AM
Bulette

The way it's spelled makes it look like a French word, in which case it would be pronounced boo-let, with slightly more emphasis on the "let" and a faint "uh" sound at the end.

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 11:11 AM
Also, if you poke around the RPGA website, there is indeed a Living KoK campaign. I'm not sure about HOW much support LKoK recieved, since it grew to maturity in the shadow of Living City and Living Greyhawk, but I've played in a few LKoK events at conventions over my years. Its too bad that it didn't get any more spotlight than it did, because it really did seem like a very immersive and well defined world, not unlike the level of detail in more published campaign settings like Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms.

That said, I'm not sure of the fate of LKoK. Given that its an RPGA endorsed campaign in a WotC owned setting, my guess is that its slated to go the way of the dodo on December 31, similar to the way LG is. Non-RPG campaigns suchs as Living Planar, Living Blackmoor, and Legend of the Shining Jewel will continue though, I'm about 90.7% sure.

Matthew
2008-09-24, 11:19 AM
That said, I'm not sure of the fate of LKoK. Given that its an RPGA endorsed campaign in a WotC owned setting, my guess is that its slated to go the way of the dodo on December 31, similar to the way LG is. Non-RPG campaigns suchs as Living Planar, Living Blackmoor, and Legend of the Shining Jewel will continue though, I'm about 90.7% sure.

The Kingdoms of Kalamar setting is owned by Kenzer & Company. The Living Kingdoms of Kalamar are indeed ended, to the best of my knowledge, but you are best checking out the Kenzer & Company forums to be sure of that.

hamlet
2008-09-24, 11:25 AM
Bulette

The way it's spelled makes it look like a French word, in which case it would be pronounced boo-let, with slightly more emphasis on the "let" and a faint "uh" sound at the end.

It is pronounced "Boo-Lay."

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 11:27 AM
Ok, let me rephrase that. KoK is licensed by WotC, which would mean they control the flow of IP, and therefore have ultimate power regarding their continued endorsement (or lack there of) through the RPGA (WotC's Book of the Month club). If WotC chooses to pull the plug, nothing Kenzer & Co can do to keep the setting an official living campaign, short of stripping out all the IP licensed to them by WotC, which pretty much neuters an already low-popularity setting. THATS why I'm inclined to believe that LKoK is dying out at the end of the year.

Matthew
2008-09-24, 11:32 AM
Ok, let me rephrase that. KoK is licensed by WotC, which would mean they control the flow of IP, and therefore have ultimate power regarding their continued endorsement (or lack there of) through the RPGA (WotC's Book of the Month club). If WotC chooses to pull the plug, nothing Kenzer & Co can do to keep the setting an official living campaign, short of stripping out all the IP licensed to them by WotC, which pretty much neuters an already low-popularity setting. THATS why I'm inclined to believe that LKoK is dying out at the end of the year.

Nope. The license with WotC ended over a year ago (August 2007), the conditions of renewal were apparently over zealous. The Kingdoms of Kalamar haven't been officially affiliated with WotC since then. The 4e campaign setting was produced entirely without their approval or say so, and without use of the GSL. K&C had a hell of a time with WotC during the period that they enjoyed the license, apparently, as the latter did have the power of veto on many K&C products; some have been inclined to see the release of 4e Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting in this manner as the fruit of that soured relationship, but I wouldn't know.

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 11:44 AM
Nope. The contract with WotC ended more than a year ago. the Kingdoms of Kalamar haven't been officially affiliated with WotC since then. The 4e campaign setting was produced entirely without their approval or say so, and without use of the GSL. K&C had a hell of a time with WotC apparently, as they did have the power of veto on many K&C products.

orly? I was under the impression that WotC was pretty heavy handed with anything with their name on it, near it, or associated with it, with the patience and understanding of a teething infant. If they didn't like what you were doing with their IP, they threatened to crush you under the immense weight of legal budget, since the burden of proof would be on the defendant. Or at least that's the way its seemed with all of the content produced for the LG campaign. The ownership of written modules reverted to the author after the mod was removed from play, but it could never be used for ANYTHING (including publishing, trading with others, or even GIVING AWAY) because it still had Greyhawk content in it, which is owned by WotC. To this day, I'd speculate there is an underground market for trade of these modules similar to the trade of copyrighted music, etc.

Then again, maybe thats just the jaded opinion I've picked up from hanging out on the LG message boards too long that I can't see through the Gloom and Doom (TM) anymore.

Matthew
2008-09-24, 11:51 AM
orly? I was under the impression that WotC was pretty heavy handed with anything with their name on it, near it, or associated with it, with the patience and understanding of a teething infant. If they didn't like what you were doing with their IP, they threatened to crush you under the immense weight of legal budget, since the burden of proof would be on the defendant. Or at least that's the way its seemed with all of the content produced for the LG campaign. The ownership of written modules reverted to the author after the mod was removed from play, but it could never be used for ANYTHING (including publishing, trading with others, or even GIVING AWAY) because it still had Greyhawk content in it, which is owned by WotC. To this day, I'd speculate there is an underground market for trade of these modules similar to the trade of copyrighted music, etc.

Then again, maybe thats just the jaded opinion I've picked up from hanging out on the LG message boards too long that I can't see through the Gloom and Doom (TM) anymore.

They aren't anywhere near as heavy handed as TSR were back in the day, but what you have to understand is that the 4e Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting doesn't make use of any WotC intellectual property, it just claims to be compatible with fourth edition. David Kenzer is, so I understand, an intellectual property lawyer, and also released the AD&D versions of Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting and adventures without a license and without getting sued by TSR.

The Wizards of the Coast have almost no chance of winning a legal action of this sort, though they could waste time, resources, and public good will by attempting to do so. :smallwink:

It is a complicated world, but you or I could release material intended to be compatible with D20/3e/4e without the say so of WotC or use of any license, so long as we kept within certain limitations. Identifying those limitations is the tricky part.

Keld Denar
2008-09-24, 12:02 PM
They aren't anywhere near as heavy handed as TSR were back in the day, but what you have to understand is that the 4e Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting doesn't make use of any WotC intellectual property, it just claims to be compatible with fourth edition. David Kenzer is apparently an intellectual property lawyer, and also released the AD&D versions of Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting and adventures without a license and without getting sued by TSR.

The Wizards of the Coast have no chance of winning a court case of this sort, though they could waste time, resources, and public good will by doing so. :smallwink:

Maybe so, but you don't have to know you can win to file suite. One common tactic used by major corporation is to bog the case down in legalese and burden of proof to keep a product in limbo, and then waiting until the defendant runs out of money from lack of moving the frozen product and folds. WotC has HASBRO backing them, meaning their pockets are probably deeper than Mr. Kenzer's.

Then again, like I said, I'm mearly speculating from what I've seen over on the Living Greyhawk boards. I was also refering to the Living KoK game, rather than the setting as a whole. K&Co can publish material and whatnot, but they (or anyone else) can't have a 3.5 living campaign anymore without that license or removal of all WotC licensed content from all content. That's all a moot point since LKoK apparently died out a year ago anyway...

Matthew
2008-09-24, 12:24 PM
Maybe so, but you don't have to know you can win to file suite. One common tactic used by major corporation is to bog the case down in legalese and burden of proof to keep a product in limbo, and then waiting until the defendant runs out of money from lack of moving the frozen product and folds. WotC has HASBRO backing them, meaning their pockets are probably deeper than Mr. Kenzer's.

That is correct (well, in the US, anyway). These things are risk versus reward versus cost. There is nothing stopping WotC bringing a legal action, win or lose, but the bet is that if they were to consider doing so, they would be advised by their lawyers not to (after all, just that sort of thing is what helped to sink TSR). If we start to see them resorting to legal action, it will probably be indicative of their market share slipping.

Meat Shield
2008-09-24, 12:40 PM
OK, I'll skip the legal minutiae being discussed and jump in on the 'hell yeah's being thrown around for the KoK setting.

My home group uses Kalamar and I will also confirm there is something for everyone. Ostensibly, the setting is lower magic than Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, but my group has upped the magic level with no difficulty or impact to the setting.

It is also completely generic if you want it to be - what I mean is that you could take aspects of it you do not like and adjust to flavor with little or no loss of satisfaction (see magic level above). We have also inserted a homebrew pantheon that supplants the one supplied with the setting.

The level of fluff thrown into the books are truly amazing. Definitely pick up the campaign setting and the players guide, but also get the books Geanavue: the Stones of Peace and Loona: Port of Intrigue. They are the capital and port city of a city-state in the main continent of Tellene. That is THREE HUNDRED pages of nothing but fluff, description, NPCs, intrigue, guilds, rivalries, threats, quests, and other glorious things - and NO CRUNCH! So if you need a place to base a campaign, regardless of the world, setting, or system, those books are you thing. (BTW, did I mention they were also written by Ed Greenwood - you may have heard of him. Forgotten Realms, Myth Drannor, Elminster, you know, that guy)

Hzurr
2008-09-24, 01:41 PM
It is pronounced "Boo-Lay."

Not with the "-ette" ending.

If it was just just "Bulet", then you would pronounce it "Boo-Lay," but by adding on the extra "-te," you pronounce the "t" sound.

See: "Marionette" or "Marie Antoinette" for similar end pronunciation.

mwp1138
2008-09-25, 01:16 PM
Ack - don't say 'what was Kingdoms of Kalamar'... ;) We're still publishing!

Some of the above posters have somewhat covered this already, but I'll repeat - many of the Kingdoms of Kalamar (3.0 and 3.5) and HackMaster (4th edition) books were produced under our license agreement with Wizards of the Coast. When that agreement expired, any books produced under that license went out of print.

Fortunately, most of the KoK books didn't reprint any D&D material at all, so we've been able to re-release almost all the KoK products in PDF and POD (Print On Demand) form, after polishing them a bit and buffing out the D&D/WotC logos. :)

We are currently working on the next edition of HackMaster, which will use the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting as its default world. The plan is for any regional/reference books to be as rules free as possible, so you can use them for your own homebrew or rules system of choice.

You can follow the discussion on our forums, if you're interested. Be sure to keep an eye on our website for future release of HM 5th edition information and previews!

mwp1138
2008-09-25, 01:17 PM
Oh, and of course we're still releasing new D&D compatible Kingdoms of Kalamar material in PDF/POD form. The most recent include the 4E Kingdoms of Kalamar setting, plus city supplements for Diijishy and Zoa (both v3.5 edition).

LibraryOgre
2008-09-25, 01:23 PM
And from what I hear, KoK will be the base setting of Hackmaster 5th edition.

Matthew
2008-09-25, 02:00 PM
Hmmn. I can't swear to it, but I think that was Mark Plemmons posting above... which makes two Marks saying so. :smallbiggrin:

LibraryOgre
2008-09-25, 02:44 PM
Not with the "-ette" ending.

If it was just just "Bulet", then you would pronounce it "Boo-Lay," but by adding on the extra "-te," you pronounce the "t" sound.

See: "Marionette" or "Marie Antoinette" for similar end pronunciation.

I'll point out that Hzurr, unrepentant stick-geek that he is, doesn't have an English 4e PH. He has one in French. Now, French isn't his native language... I think that's FORTRAN... but I kinda take his word for it on how something is pronounced in any language spoken through the nose.

:smallsmile:

hamlet
2008-09-25, 04:09 PM
Hmmn. I can't swear to it, but I think that was Mark Plemmons posting above... which makes two Marks saying so. :smallbiggrin:

Just be thankful we didn't draw Dave himself here.

The resultant tear in the fabric of space and time would have cause untold destruction.

newbDM
2008-09-25, 05:36 PM
The Kingdoms of Kalamar was the only officially licensed Dungeons & Dragons D20/3e campaign setting not produced by Wizards of the Coast. It was put out by Kenzer & Company, who are perhaps most famous for Hack Master and Knights of the Dinner table. The Kingdoms of Kalamar were originally produced for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (and other settings) without an official license, and for D20/4e Kenzer & Company have reverted to that practice. A few months back the D20/4e version of the Kingdoms of Kalamar camapign setting was released. You can read a little about that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85181).

Damn, that is a shame. They did some great 3.5 stuff. :smallfrown:

hamlet
2008-09-26, 07:06 AM
Damn, that is a shame. They did some great 3.5 stuff. :smallfrown:

They're still producing it, just in less quantity now.

In fact, they just reprinted Fury in the Wasteland (the orc book) as 3.5 rules as a POD from lulu.com.