The case for the (actual, permanent) death of Belkar...

[ZombieMaster]

Hi all, long time reader, first time poster, yadda yadda.

So, like, Gidday! :smallsmile:

There are lots of opinions floating around on Belkar, so I thought I would summarise them in a handy dandy list. I think he's going to die, permanently, and very soon. Here's my justification:

Why he will die

Well, obviously because the Oracle said so. I know a lot of people think there's going to be a cheap "well, it only says he'll draw his last breath" thing where he turns undead or something simuilar, but, honestly, why would the Giant bother?

Lets face it, Belkar is the least interesting character. OK, YMMV on that, but all of the other characters have their own arcs - Roy's is the entire strip, Haley has the thing with her father, Elan's is the linear guild (and possibly his father kidnapped Haley's father, as some people -including me- suspect), Durkon has the whole "he'll bring death and destruction when he returns home" thing going on (and it'll be posthumous), and V has the current building-insanity thing plus a husband/wife we have not met yet.

What's Belkar got? What great back story or ongoing arc does he have?

Nadda. Zilch. Belkar has always been a one trick pony. He's the psychotic guy who loves killing people, and that's about it. And frankly, although that was funny for a long time, it's tired and stale. He's not necessary anymore. It's time for the order to grow up and leave him behind. So, they wouldn't bother resurrecting him, they certainly wouldn't be happy with some undead version waldering aorund with them, and frankly, since Roy will remember Belkar killing the Oracle, he would most likely kill him next time he sees him anyway.

So that's my justification for Belkar leaving the strip.

Why is it soon?

Well, we know the Oracle said originally that he would only have one more birthday, and more recently he confirmed that Belkar had less than a year to go (specifically, that he would die by the end of the current in-comic year). Now, the new year celebration was before Azure city was raized, and since then a lot of stuff has happened, including Roy spending 3.5 months in the afterlife, after which we saw the paladin NPC's getting married and she's now at least 6 months pregnant (it looks like about 7 to me). They're paladins so it's safe to assume they didn't get pregnant before they were married :-)

So, that means that at the earliest it's about 10.5 months or maybe 11 since the start of the year, and Belkar has to die before the end of the year. So he's got, like, a month or so to go.

Not much time.

Personally? I'll be happy to see him go., As I said before, he was funny at first but now he's just tiresome and repetative. Can't wait to see the end of him.

Just my 2c. Opinions welcomed...

Cheers, Brian.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A: They're not Paladins.
B:They were 2 months pregnant before the ceremony.

[Theodoriph]

The oracle says:

"Belkar will draw his breath-ever-before the end of the year"

He then goes on to say:

"That's an in-comic year, not a real-time year Oracle fans!"



The first comment is ambiguous, because it's uncertain what "the end of the year is". A year is simply X number of days. So he could mean Belkar will die within X number of days from now. Or he could be using a calendar and be referring to the calendar year.

The second comment (That's an in-comic year) implies that he is not using a calendar year though (he should have used "that's the in-comic year" to more expressly refer to a calendar year). So it fits better with the idea that he was referring to within X number of days from now.

So based on that, I'm not too sure your math is right.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The oracle says:

"Belkar will draw his breath-ever-before the end of the year"

He then goes on to say:

"That's an in-comic year, not a real-time year Oracle fans!"



The first comment is ambiguous, because it's uncertain what "the end of the year is". A year is simply X number of days. So he could mean Belkar will die within X number of days from now. Or he could be using a calendar and be referring to the calendar year.

The second comment (That's an in-comic year) implies that he is not using a calendar year though (he should have used "that's the in-comic year" to more expressly refer to a calendar year). So it fits better with the idea that he was referring to within X number of days from now.

So based on that, I'm not too sure your math is right.Azure city fell after the visit to the Oracle. Roy was watching the wedding 3.5 months(104 days) after the fall of the city. The couple had been pregnant for 2 months at the wedding. She appears 6-7 months pregnant in the recent comics, maybe more. So we're looking at somewhere between 7.5 and 8.5 months since the Oracle, maybe more.

[arkwei]

What's Belkar got? What great back story or ongoing arc does he have?

Nadda. Zilch. Belkar has always been a one trick pony. He's the psychotic guy who loves killing people, and that's about it. And frankly, although that was funny for a long time, it's tired and stale. He's not necessary anymore. It's time for the order to grow up and leave him behind. So, they wouldn't bother resurrecting him, they certainly wouldn't be happy with some undead version waldering aorund with them, and frankly, since Roy will remember Belkar killing the Oracle, he would most likely kill him next time he sees him anyway.

So that's my justification for Belkar leaving the strip.

You see, that's just your opinion. I, for one, just like his wicked jokes. All the evil/lewd humor goes to him, so that's something when the majority of D&D players are guys.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but maybe this isn't the place to use such subjective opinion.






Azure city fell after the visit to the Oracle. Roy was watching the wedding 3.5 months(104 days) after the fall of the city. The couple had been pregnant for 2 months at the wedding. She appears 6-7 months pregnant in the recent comics, maybe more. So we're looking at somewhere between 7.5 and 8.5 months since the Oracle, maybe more.

No, Oracle stated the specific time of Belker's death right after Belker killed him, not the first time the party's there.

So the only time reduction to that "one year" is exactly how long Belker has his MoJ activated. Which is not long, really, just the Greysky arc. And that's like, what, two days at most?

Remember, all of 573-595 happened during the same night.

[lord of kobolds]

You see, that's just your opinion. I, for one, just like his wicked jokes. All the evil/lewd humor goes to him, so that's something when the majority of D&D players are guys.

I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but maybe this isn't the place to use such subjective opinion.


Belkar may not have any real subplots, but a very large number of punchlines early on involved the Belkster. He is not endearing, but he is funny as crap to some of us. I can honestly say that about 50% of the reason I read OOtS, and the reason I started in the first place, was Death's L'il Helper.

[ZombieMaster]

No, Oracle stated the specific time of Belker's death right after Belker killed him, not the first time the party's there.

So the only time reduction to that "one year" is exactly how long Belker has his MoJ activated. Which is not long, really, just the Greysky arc. And that's like, what, two days at most?

I disagree - what he said the second time (most recent time, after Belkar killed him) was that Belkar would be dead "by the end of the year". When someone says to you "the end of the year" you know that they're talking about a calendar year, that's pretty clear terminology. You don't say "the end of the year" meaning a specific number of days from now, that doesn't make sense. I guess t's possible that the Oracle is using a different calendar from everyone else, but that seems like a bit of a cop out.

Now, my maths was clearly off (I forgot they were 2 months pregnant when they got married, oops), but that still means it's at least 8-9 months since the start of the in-comic year, so that doesn't leave long for Belkar.

As I said, YMMV. Just my opinion, etc.

[Skeletoff]

Btw, there are at least 2 new year celebrations, therefore 2 calendars in oots, do we know which one oracle uses?
Anyway, I think he'll get drunk to death during the countdown.

[David Argall]

"...at the end of a year." = 365 days.
"...at the end of the year." = in 1 to 365 days.

Now we do not know for sure what calendar the Oracle uses, but he lives in the Southern lands and so the default is the Southern, which is now in the Fall.
Now so far, the Oracle has not been noted for giving out tricky predictions. Predictions that were not worth much ["Where is Xykon?"..."In his throne room."], but the predictions were directly true, not some hidden trick meaning. So the idea that he has some different calendar in mind is distinctly suspect.

[arkwei]

I disagree - what he said the second time (most recent time, after Belkar killed him) was that Belkar would be dead "by the end of the year". When someone says to you "the end of the year" you know that they're talking about a calendar year, that's pretty clear terminology. You don't say "the end of the year" meaning a specific number of days from now, that doesn't make sense. I guess t's possible that the Oracle is using a different calendar from everyone else, but that seems like a bit of a cop out.

Now, my maths was clearly off (I forgot they were 2 months pregnant when they got married, oops), but that still means it's at least 8-9 months since the start of the in-comic year, so that doesn't leave long for Belkar.

As I said, YMMV. Just my opinion, etc.



The Oracle said "before the end of the year," true.

But he said "that's an in-comic year" right after that.

So, really, if he meant "the" year, won't he use "the" both times? I think he is trying to confuse us, again.

[Emanick]

Is everyone ignoring what Durkon said during 588? He said, in response to Hinjo's saying "Twelve Gods, that elf is starting to get on my nerves?", "Jus' now? Yer runnin' six months behind tha rest o' us." That strongly implies it has been six months since the fleet left (as an arbitrary time when V started obsessing makes little to no sense), which frankly makes a great degree of sense to me. It ties in with V's scrying, as well as the time it would take for Haley, Belkar and Celia to reach Greysky City. Let's see, it was fourteen weeks between Azure City's fall, and given that the Oracle was three days away from Azure City, it can't have been THAT big a detour. Celia refers to the time since the Oracle as "these last few weeks." Yep, that seems to tie in with six months or less.
As far as I can tell, the only strike against it having been six months is that Kazumi looks more than four months pregnant. However, it could just be an early baby, and OOTS is liable to stretch the laws of pregnancy a bit to fit the story.
All said and done, it looks as though Belkar has (up to!) about five months to live, assuming Durkon was rounding down.

[Impikmin]

It'll be sad to see him go. But if I had to choose any of the order, it would be him :(

[David Argall]

Is everyone Durkon said "Jus' now? Yer runnin' six months behind tha rest o' us." That strongly implies it has been six months since the fleet left (as an arbitrary time when V started obsessing makes little to no sense),
It is simply a possible association. It gives us a minimum period of time, but no maximum. And the idea that the period started just when the fleet sailed is clearly suspect. One expects some grace period after all, and here we can suggest the grace period might have lasted 4 months, making it early December.


it was fourteen weeks between Azure City's fall,
16. See 532.


As far as I can tell, the only strike against it having been six months is that Kazumi looks more than four months pregnant.
She also talks about 6 months of hemmroids, which could put her 8 months along.

[Hippoboy]

How do you people know that Belkar won't get character development, the current mark of justice arc could round out his character a bit from 'Funny Heroic Sociopath' to 'somewhat more 3D heroic sociopath'.

Personally I take Belkars death sentence with a pinch of salt because the giant could (theoretically) just be screwing with the minds of this board and say "I Lied" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ILied)

[Silverlocke980]

To be honest?

The best case for Belkar being permanently dead- no ifs, ands, tricks, or buts- is because it's the last thing we'd expect. People getting around "being dead" prophecies through some odd means or another is something we are all used to by now, but Rich Burlew is, if anything, a hell of an author. He will kill Belkar and he will not do anything to get around that fact. He will do it, and thus, he will manage to grab our attention far better than any "zombie Belkar" or other trick could.

Thusly, I put my hope in Rich that something really wild will happen: Belkar will die. Permanently.

[goodyarn]

What's Belkar got? What great back story or ongoing arc does he have?

Heaven itself has shown us the graph, whereby they expected Belkar's level of evil to increase hyperbolically. But there has actually been a decrease in the number of kilonazis due solely to his time with the order of the stick.

Imagine how evil Belkar could really be if he was kicked out of OOTS (like he almost is) and joined Xykon and the even darker side (like he almost already did).

[Emanick]

It is simply a possible association. It gives us a minimum period of time, but no maximum. And the idea that the period started just when the fleet sailed is clearly suspect. One expects some grace period after all, and here we can suggest the grace period might have lasted 4 months, making it early December.


16. See 532.


She also talks about 6 months of hemmroids, which could put her 8 months along.

Technically, she says half a year, which is most likely rounding. I just can't see Haley taking six months to get to Greysky. It makes zero sense. One could walk across a fair-sized continent in that space of time, assuming no natural obstacles. And by default, we should assume as well that Haley's arc is not several months behind Hinjo's.
Seven to eight months seems the most reasonable amount of time since the fleet sailed, especially closer to the higher number. Since if Kazumi was eight months along, it would have been six months since #504, when V has already been obsessed for weeks, it has obviously not been that long.

[AceOfFools]

Is everyone ignoring what Durkon said during 588? He said, in response to Hinjo's saying "Twelve Gods, that elf is starting to get on my nerves?", "Jus' now? Yer runnin' six months behind tha rest o' us." That strongly implies it has been six months since the fleet left

Six in-comic months?

[Silverlocke980]

Six in-comic months?

Yes- it's been about six months in-comic. Weirdly, most of what we've caught up with has only happened in a very short period of time- maybe a week?

[Eric]

I know the name is Kubota. I was trying to joke about it a little. I'm sorry if anyone is offended, since apparently some people were mad about the purposely abused use of [sic]. Now please get over it.

The point of the joke was to "quote" imaginary people spelling Kubota's name wrong in a ridiculous fashion, in order to make fun of people misspelling characters' names.

Uh, you say "I'm sorry if anyone is offended"[sic] and then say "in order to make fun of people"[sic].

If you make fun OF PEOPLE, that is offending them.

So which were you trying to do? Not offend, or offend?

[sic]

[Eric]

Personally I take Belkars death sentence with a pinch of salt because the giant could (theoretically) just be screwing with the minds of this board and say "I Lied" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ILied)

Given how the Oracle (for those who looove him) was absolutely right when he said his prediction for Belkar was served because Miko died. Roy did. Windstriker isn't coming back. whatever. Then how can this "prediction" be solved in a way that doesn't actually mean "Belkar dies, doesn't come back and never gets to be animate"?

Maybe "He doesn't enjoy killing as much as he used to and that to the Belkar I prophesied for is death: that one no longer exists".

That "kills" Belkar just as much as giving a ring of jumping to Roy is Belkar killing Roy.

[Njord]

Well, I think its quite clear that belkar is going to die. As far as halfling biology is concerned i think they need to breath, and according to oracle, he will take his LAST breath ever, by the end of the year. Off course he can go undead or some thing, but again, oracle says - although not with this words - to roy that he let belkar had his time because he is a goner.

And also I think that his death will be something extremely fun to watch, that will get us laughing, for the simple fact that Belkar - death lil' helper - does not deserve a emotional-sad death such as Miko and Therkla.

He is a bastard, and considering that even Roys death was kind of funny - and he didnt deserve it - I'll just sit and enjoy seeing his death, which by the way I concur will happen in no more than 3-4 in-comic months.

[factotum]

The Oracle said "before the end of the year," true.

But he said "that's an in-comic year" right after that.

So, really, if he meant "the" year, won't he use "the" both times? I think he is trying to confuse us, again.

The only reason he said that was to prevent people thinking it was a year in real time rather than a year in the timeline of the comic, I think--you're over-analysing a statement that was simply made to nip another line of discussion in the bud.

[Kish]

Heaven itself has shown us the graph, whereby they expected Belkar's level of evil to increase hyperbolically. But there has actually been a decrease in the number of kilonazis due solely to his time with the order of the stick.

Imagine how evil Belkar could really be if he was kicked out of OOTS (like he almost is) and joined Xykon and the even darker side (like he almost already did).
But his death will reduce his number of kilonazis to 0.

[Eric]

But his death will reduce his number of kilonazis to 0.

Unless he kilonzi's Asmodeus and turns up as a greater demon on the prime material.

[Lowkey]

The 2 most famous OOTS strips are the Gygax one and the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" one. He has the 4th most appearances in the series. He is the primary source of humor in subarcs here he appears, and either gets the most lines or is the butt of most of the jokes. He is, simply, the moneymaker. That's pretty hard to replace, so I expect him to be around for a bit.

[chiasaur11]

Unless he kilonzi's Asmodeus and turns up as a greater demon on the prime material.

Or his corpse may be turned into a Golem, allowing him to both be totally dead and fairly evil.

[factotum]

Or his corpse may be turned into a Golem, allowing him to both be totally dead and fairly evil.

But not really the same character, which would kind of defeat the point of retaining him in the strip, wouldn't it?

[Greep]

Eh, I still think Belkar won't even die in the first place. With the Oracle, not only is "draw his last breath" vague, but even "belkar" is vague, as it could mean his current personality. I mean look at the past prophecies. Does "When the goat turns, red strikes true" have ANY reference to Nale or Haley? Roy's dad sure wasn't talking about a goat XD

Edit: actually, the fact that Belkar has had no great development reinforces this. The fact that he hasn't means he WILL if this comic's trends are consistent, and if he WILL his character will change.

I'm probably dead wrong, I just don't belkar dead in the next 100 comics XD

[Kish]

The 2 most famous OOTS strips are the Gygax one and the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" one.

What's your basis for this claim?


He has the 4th most appearances in the series.

Fourth? Out of six main characters? That's not really a point in his favor. :smalltongue:

[goodyarn]

But his death will reduce his number of kilonazis to 0.

I was responding to an earlier point that Belkar should die because he has no dramatic arc. I say, once Belkar leaves OOTS, he is going to have the opportunity to turn on them and become their worst enemy. Whether or not that results in Belkar's permanent death, I can't say. But once that story is done, I don't think you can fairly look at it and claim that Belkar had no dramatic arc.

[Sir_Norbert]

Well, the latest strip (#598) gives us another datum. The current in-comic year is still 1184, so the Oracle's prediction definitely refers to Belkar's death before the end of 1184. (Yes, I know this was almost certain anyway, but now it's set in stone. Tee hee.)

From the graph in #489, it looks to me like two months of 1184 had then gone, so if we're going to estimate what the current month is, that should be our starting point. Roy spends 111 days, nearly four months, in the afterlife between then and #500, and if Kazumi is around seven months pregnant in the latest strip, that would put us in December already.

Looks like Belkar's time is nearly up....

(On a side note, I don't get why so many people have assumed that Belkar's Mark of Justice has has its effects and run out, just because he stopped vomiting. There is such a thing as conservation of matter, you know. He can't vomit up any more than he has inside him to start with. But he is still very much sickened, and it's very likely to lead to his death, possibly directly, but more likely by causing him to take or omit some action that causes his death in a way that we aren't going to succeed in guessing.)

[esmerelder]

All the evil/lewd humor goes to him, so that's something when the majority of D&D players are guys.

It's something for the girls and women who like reading about Belkar's misbehaviour too!

[David Argall]

so the Oracle's prediction definitely refers to Belkar's death before the end of 1184.
From the graph in #489, it looks to me like two months of 1184 had then gone, so if we're going to estimate what the current month is, that should be our starting point. Roy spends 111 days, nearly four months, in the afterlife between then and #500, and if Kazumi is around seven months pregnant in the latest strip, that would put us in December already.
There are a couple of technical errors here. We know from the strips that Azure City got taken about January 15. And when Roy looks in on the wedding, Kazumi is 8 weeks pregnant, so the current date by Azure City time is September or October. The dates in 489 are best considered Northern Calendar, and not the same as the Southern. [302]


Looks like Belkar's time is nearly up....
This depends on what calendar the Oracle was using. By the Northern Calendar, he seems to barely have days left. By the Southern, it's a few months. And if the Oracle is using the right calendar, he still has about 11.


(On a side note, I don't get why so many people have assumed that Belkar's Mark of Justice has has its effects and run out, just because he stopped vomiting. There is such a thing as conservation of matter, you know. He can't vomit up any more than he has inside him to start with.
That is not a limit with magic, as the everfull jug shows.


But he is still very much sickened, and it's very likely to lead to his death, possibly directly,
Almost certainly not directly. The spell is to sicken him, not kill, and so its effects are entirely survivable.

[ChowGuy]

[QUOTE=David Argall;5040240]There are a couple of technical errors here. We know from the strips that Azure City got taken about January 15. And when Roy looks in on the wedding, Kazumi is 8 weeks pregnant, so the current date by Azure City time is September or October. The dates in 489 are best considered Northern Calendar, and not the same as the Southern. [302]

Speaking of "technical errors" I'd like to point out that the notion that a year starts and ends on some arbitrary specified date in the middle of the winter is a peculiarly post-Roman European one. It's far more common for a calender to be based on some political or religious event. "New Year's" in Azure City might (probably does) coincide with the founding of the City, and need not be at all in sync with whatever passes for "Common Era" elsewhere, even if for administrative purposes they recognize that dating system. Which is probably relevent only to posts about "what month is it?" such as your own.

More importantly however, the actual length of a given numbered year is not always so fixed as we would assume, if that year is based on a lunar rather then solar calender. We have no way of knowing which is the case in the OotS world, nor even what the lengths of those respective cycles or any others that are involved might be. That the Oracle specifies an "in-comic" then opens up considerable wiggle room for the authors to make that as long or short as needed. In other words, like a Star Fury, time in the OotS world flies at the speed of Plot.

[Sir_Norbert]

Speaking of "technical errors" I'd like to point out that the notion that a year starts and ends on some arbitrary specified date in the middle of the winter is a peculiarly post-Roman European one.
I know that, but this is a comic with coffee machines.

[David Argall]

More importantly however, the actual length of a given numbered year is not always so fixed as we would assume, if that year is based on a lunar rather then solar calender. We have no way of knowing which is the case in the OotS world, nor even what the lengths of those respective cycles or any others that are involved might be. That the Oracle specifies an "in-comic" then opens up considerable wiggle room for the authors to make that as long or short as needed.
We have a rather honest writer here, who doesn't seem to try this sort of trick on us. Roy asks a defective question. We are immediately made aware of that. The Oracle gives defective answers to questions, but they are not tricky answers. Knowing Xykon is in his throne room is worthless when you don't know where that is, but you know right away it is worthless. You don't get the idea he is North when he is actually South.

So there seems to be little reason to be looking for loopholes.

[Greep]

We have a rather honest writer here, who doesn't seem to try this sort of trick on us. Roy asks a defective question. We are immediately made aware of that. The Oracle gives defective answers to questions, but they are not tricky answers. Knowing Xykon is in his throne room is worthless when you don't know where that is, but you know right away it is worthless. You don't get the idea he is North when he is actually South.

So there seems to be little reason to be looking for loopholes.

I agree that would be a pretty lame trick. Akin to saying "hey goats are actually called blargfests in the comic, so when someone says goats they're referring actually to horses. Oh this is also part of a trick to confuse you in a prophecy."

I'd be :smallfurious: