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Heliomance
2008-09-24, 06:02 AM
I love the idea of Orcish spellcasters, particularly druids or spirit shamans. They seem just the type to have a shamanistic culture, but those mental penalties hurt. Is it possible to build a decent caster out of an Orc?

Hal
2008-09-24, 06:08 AM
Half-Orcs don't take a Wis penalty, so it's not difficult to make a Wis based caster.

For full orcs . . . they weren't designed to be effective casters, I guess. They're the only race I can think of off-hand whose ability bonuses and penalties don't even out. As a DM, I'd probably just ignore the penalty to one stat for whoever the casters are.

Spiryt
2008-09-24, 06:10 AM
Considering that spellcasters are already overpowered, I don't see a problem.

Increasing stats with gaining levels will leave them with just enough of them for high level spells.

As a cleric, great strenght will make them good at fighting, and you don't need great wisdom for buffing and healing. And when he hit higher levels, classic cleric spells (Righteos Might + Divine power) + his already high strenght will make him melee machine.

So IMO Orc make kinda nice clerics.

Druid will be worse mechanically, as he doesn't really need strenght (Wildshape:smallsigh:). Same with mage, probably.

SO overally, orc caster would be probably a bit weaker than "normal" one, but still strong. (Over)power of spells in 3.5 just can't be spoiled by mere - 2 to stat.

And he will always have a chance to do something at lower levels (even when spell's out).

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 06:11 AM
There are a lot of races with more bonuses then penalties (eg: Lizardfolk and Gnolls), and Kobolds don't balance either (-4 Str, -2 Con and+2 Dex). 1 variant rule lets Shugenjas use stats other then Cha for spell casting (Wind= Cha, Water=Wis, Fire= Int and Earth=Con). Also, don't forget that Shapeshifter Druids need Str due to how they only get stat bonuses rather thenreplacing their stats.

serok42
2008-09-24, 06:11 AM
Half-Orcs don't take a Wis penalty, so it's not difficult to make a Wis based caster.

For full orcs . . . they weren't designed to be effective casters, I guess. They're the only race I can think of off-hand whose ability bonuses and penalties don't even out. As a DM, I'd probably just ignore the penalty to one stat for whoever the casters are.

It seems like in most of the novels that the orc spell casters are weaker than the fighters. So maybe homebrew a weak orc that can be the caster of the tribe? I don't remember off the top of my head what modifiers an orc has.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 06:14 AM
They get +4 Str and -2 to all mental stats. I just remembered hearing about a class called the Tantarist which uses Con, but I don't know anything about them.

Talic
2008-09-24, 06:14 AM
I love the idea of Orcish spellcasters, particularly druids or spirit shamans. They seem just the type to have a shamanistic culture, but those mental penalties hurt. Is it possible to build a decent caster out of an Orc?

Sure thing. Let's look at the following:

32 point buy:

Str 22
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 6
Cha 6

Wizard, focused specialist (Transmutation).

Focus on buff spells, mainly Enlarge, Bull's strength, Fist of stone, invisibility.

At level 1, it's a build that'll rival most melee builds out there. Grab a spear (simple weapon), cast enlarge, and you've got a +6 to hit for 2d6+12 damage.

Spiryt
2008-09-24, 06:19 AM
Speaking about Cleric, Orc Domain (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/domain.pl?Orc) is kinda neat.

Grants you smite against anyone, free Divine Power and other decent spells, ending with Power Word : Kill.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 06:19 AM
Talic, wouldn't a dependance on using a lot of spell slots/encounter poor AC and a d4 HD make that build a liability? That Domain is quite neat, Spiryt. (It would be great for a melee-focussed Cleric.)

mostlyharmful
2008-09-24, 06:24 AM
There's a Grey Orc varient from the Races of FR i think, suppossedly orcs out of the east rather than the big North mountains. They got a +2 to Str and +2 to Wis instead of the usual. Make damn good clerics.

Spiryt
2008-09-24, 06:29 AM
There's a Grey Orc varient from the Races of FR i think, suppossedly orcs out of the east rather than the big North mountains. They got a +2 to Str and +2 to Wis instead of the usual. Make damn good clerics.

And LA + 1, if I'm not wrong?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-24, 06:30 AM
They get +4 Str and -2 to all mental stats. I just remembered hearing about a class called the Tantarist which uses Con, but I don't know anything about them.If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's in the BoEF, so don't expect it to be approved(why is so much related to that happening these days? I even had to use it IRL when I needed info on how Kobolds viewed abortion). Con determines bonus spells for the Tantrist, Int determines Save DC, IIRC. It casts like a Wizard, from the Sorc/Wizard list, but uses scars on his own body as a spellbook, with no limit on the number of pages. You also have to have sex for an hour. So yes, there are many easy ways to adapt it to the CE Orc shaman, most of which I'd prefer not to openly state.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 06:33 AM
Thanks, Sstoopidtallkid (I think; that class sounds disturbing:smalleek:). That would only work for a booster/utility caster, unless the DM was fine with you using Con for the Save DCs, which shouldn't be that much of a problem. Acording to page 29 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf , Water Orcs get a +2 Con bonus as well, so that race could be useful to you.

Kaiyanwang
2008-09-24, 06:35 AM
There's a Grey Orc varient from the Races of FR i think, suppossedly orcs out of the east rather than the big North mountains. They got a +2 to Str and +2 to Wis instead of the usual. Make damn good clerics.

Yes they are. I like them because you can play them as more "spiritual" orcs (could be sound odd but you could mix an innate ferocity with an intrinsic respect for natural world, spirits, element and so on).

LA +1, however.

mostlyharmful
2008-09-24, 06:40 AM
LA +1, however.

Meh, I always allow buy-off rules on LA which makes it a lot more workable.

Talic
2008-09-24, 06:41 AM
Talic, wouldn't a dependance on using a lot of spell slots/encounter poor AC and a d4 HD make that build a liability? That Domain is quite neat, Spiryt. (It would be great for a melee-focussed Cleric.)

Typical Focused specialist caster can expect to burn 1-2 slots per encounter, provided it's a challenging one.

Focused specialists have 4 level 1 spells at level 1. This grants a lot of flexibility. Heck, any time the caster gains a new spell level, they start with 3 spells, bare minimum.

D4 HD isn't quite as important as you'd think. Boost Con modifier, use reach, and most of that will be mitigated. Supplement auxiliary casting with scrolls. Heck, splash a level of Barbarian for added HP and rage for added Strength. At level 4, you gain the Int to qualify for Improved trip, though stand still is also an option.

Basically, it's marketed as combat control/damage, with built in buffs that you don't need to waste resources on. Not necessarily be all/end all tank. It's a 5th slotter character.

Oslecamo
2008-09-24, 06:45 AM
Use water orcs. Just like normal orcs, but they get a swim speed and +2 to CON, balancing the stats quite well. La+0 Check them out in the srd.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 06:46 AM
That is a good point. Whole less spells would be available initially, wouldn;t Battle Sorcerer be a better choice for a Full Caster with melee capabilities, though? Using a 32 PB, I'd go with the folloing stats for an Orc using this class:

Str: 18. (6 points.)
Con: 14. (6 points.)
Dex: 10. (2 points.)
Int: 8. (2 points.)
Wis: 8. (2 points.)
Cha: 16 (14 points.)

Getting the DM to let you have proficiency with a 2-handed Martial weapon would help as well.

EDIT: I already found a link for Water Orcs. If you use those, taking 2 points from Con and putting them in Dex could be a good idea.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-24, 06:48 AM
The other options for Orc Casters are the various Gish and Partial Caster classes out there. Bard can provide Party Buffs and support with relative ease and benefit from his stats in melee. A Duskblade certainly won't mind the Str boost, even with the Int cost. Cleric-Zilla may prefer the added damage, even with the loss of save DCs and bonus spells, especially if he doesn't go DMM.

Roderick_BR
2008-09-24, 07:04 AM
Talic, wouldn't a dependance on using a lot of spell slots/encounter poor AC and a d4 HD make that build a liability? That Domain is quite neat, Spiryt. (It would be great for a melee-focussed Cleric.)
Using an old meme from the forum: "If you are a spellcaster, and is getting within melee range, you are doing it wrong".

An orc caster would be cool, depending of the setting. A xaman/druid like gets more to mind, though a wizard/sorcerer would make it an interesting character, like that caster from Looking for Group (she's an orc, right?)

Edit: Of course, only now I remember she's a priestess...

Heliomance
2008-09-24, 07:19 AM
Actually, I don't think anyone's quite sure what she is.

potatocubed
2008-09-24, 07:22 AM
How about an orcish shaman who isn't a spellcaster at all? He's a rogue (possibly multiclass) with a whole load of smokesticks and other alchemical goodies, a funky headdress and 'shaman gear', and he's got the other orcs thinking he's magical through sleight of hand and bluffery.

It'd probably be good for one, maybe two surprise shots while the players try to work out what spells he's casting and what class he is. :smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 07:23 AM
There are a lot of feats which grant minor spells once/day. I'll find a list of them (UMD would be great for that character as well).

EDIT: Page 21 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf mentions the feats (Touch of Deception and Touch of Summoning could be the best feats fluff-wise).

I'd build that character like this (using 32 PB):

Str: 12 (0 points.)
Dex: 16 (10 points.)
Con: 12 (4 points.)
Int: 12 (6 points.)
Wis: 10 (4 points.)
Cha: 13 (10 points.)

I'd take at least 1 Flaw (Coward or Bravardo would probably fit the character well), before taking Touches of Depeption and Captivation at level 1 for feats. Skill Focus (UMD), Spell Hand or Touch of Summoning would be good level3 feat choices. I'd invest the level 4 stat point in Cha while keeping UMD, Bluff, Disguise, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, Tumble and Sleight of Hand maxed out as well. It may be a good idea to have her gain 4 Warlock levels as well (Invocationwise, Eldrich Glaive would be neat due to being visual and dangerous, along with things like Summon Swarm and other flashy Invocations).

Adumbration
2008-09-24, 07:24 AM
I remember seeing an orc race that was actually rather sophisticated, and good aligned. Sharakim, was it? Anyway, it's in one of the Races books.

EDIT: Races of Destiny.
Racial traits: +2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex, -2 Cha. +1 NA. +1 LA, unfortunately.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 07:43 AM
Looking over their stats and abilities, they really don't seem strong enough to have a +1 LA. Getting rid of the Natural Armour would probably knock them right down to LA 0.

Heliomance
2008-09-24, 08:11 AM
While the Sharakim do look quite fun, they hate orcs. The flavour I had in mind was for orcs with a tribal system, where shamans featured prominently. So you'd have your standard rampaging orcs, but each tribe would have a shaman, highly respected in the tribe. They'd likely be either a druid or a spirit shaman, really.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 08:13 AM
Have you seen the Spirit Shaman optimisation thread? That could help if you decide to use those. In regards to my ideas for the Rogue, would the Warlocklevels fit that well? I was just thinking about how Invocations are technically spells. An Earth Shugenja would be able to heal as well as blast people, so it would probably work well here (Wind spells are often illusions, so they don't fit that well with the Orc steriotype).

Suzuro
2008-09-24, 08:14 AM
My old friend (Siric, if you remember him) Made an orcish Favored Soul for the BBEG in one of his campaigns.

-Suzuro

Darrin
2008-09-24, 08:25 AM
Is it possible to build a decent caster out of an Orc?

For Charisma-based casting, adding the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306, +2 Cha -2 Wis, no LA) to a desert half-orc (Unearthed Arcana, p. 12) works pretty well: +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha.

For Intelligence-based casting... hmm... no decent options there without taking a level adjustment somewhere. Deep template (Dragon #306, +2 Int -2 Str) might be best for only LA +1.

Asbestos
2008-09-24, 08:32 AM
Orc Totemist perhaps? Everything is Con based and the Orc Str boost would help out too. Isn't really a caster per se, but it definitely fits the shamanistic theme.

Tempest Fennac
2008-09-24, 08:36 AM
Can that class be used for healing at all? (I tend to think of that as an important Shaman-type ability.)

Asbestos
2008-09-24, 09:18 AM
Can that class be used for healing at all? (I tend to think of that as an important Shaman-type ability.)

Hmmm... you'd have to take the "Shape Soulmeld" feat so you could add the "Lifebond Vestments" from the incarnate list to your Totemist. It isn't the 'ideal' way to heal (does damage to the healer = 1/2 what is healed or something) but it is a way.

A Totemist/Earth Shugenja mix might be interesting.

Heliomance
2008-09-24, 11:07 AM
Which book's the totemist in?

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 11:35 AM
Magic of Incarnum.

Devils_Advocate
2008-09-24, 02:10 PM
Well, the basic standard in D&D is that each humanoid race has its own racial deity who supposedly created the race and now guides and protects it. Clerics of that deity then provide their race with magic, and often serve as the only source of magic in communities with no other spellcasting tradition. They often also play a leadership role in the community. This is how things work in the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, to my understanding. Orcs are no exception to this general rule. Regardless of what other divine spellcasters they have, there are going to be clerics of Gruumsh.

Religions vary from one campaign setting to another, however. Obviously, if you're making your own setting, you may want to make your orcs different (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurOrcsAreDifferent) from the ones in the Monster Manual; swapping out some details to give a setting its own distinct feel is itself a D&D standard, after all. (If you really wanted to get nuts, you could put a tribe of evil murderous raider orcs in the same setting as a tribe of honorable shamanistic nature-worshipping hunter orcs, on the theory that humans aren't the only race in the world to develop more than one distinct culture. Crazy idea, I know.)

One thing to consider is that if your orcs are stereotypical Proud Warrior Race Guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProudWarriorRaceGuy), they're probably not going to put up with some wimp bossing them around. If anything, it's more likely that the physically strongest member will rule, the orcs regarding this as right and proper. And that orc is probably gonna be a Barbarian or Fighter rather than a spellcaster. There are two ways to deal with this:

(1) The strongest warrior is the tribe's chieftan, and the oldest shaman is his chief advisor, or something to that effect. Basically, the shamans serve as the proverbial brains of the operation, who actually make the important decisions, and the warriors are the executive branch, seeing to it that their will is enforced. The warriors like this arrangement because they get all the honor, glory, prestige, and babes. The shamans like this arrangement because they'd really rather not have to personally lead the charge, or face challengers in honorable fights to the death for rule of the clan, or anything stupid like that. (Such activities result in a low life expectancy even for those who are cut out for such things, and they'd prefer to remain breathing for now.)

(2) The tribe's leader is a CoDzilla or similar type of character. He doesn't have the most raw, natural, physical strength, but he can take any other member of his tribe in a fight, and that's what really counts, not how much you can bench press. He also specifically has demonstrable, potent divinely granted power, and you don't want to piss off a deity by disobeying his one of his favored servants, do ya?

Eskil
2008-09-24, 04:15 PM
The Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) is a Con-based battlefield-controller/secondary buffer with at-will supernatural and spell-like abilities.

Another option, if one wants to include variant rules, is the Tainted Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer), which does away with the need to have high mental scores.


Which book's the totemist in?


Magic of Incarnum.

Also available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050907a&page=3). With extra soulmelds. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4)

Theodoxus
2008-09-24, 06:57 PM
I've chosen the Gray Orc as my race for the variant druid I'm building for my next character.

Taking the Storm Giant Bloodline (major), Druidic Avenger and Druidic Hunter (all from Unearthed Arcana), and using level buy-off to help mitigate some of the downsides, "Sticknyf" is coming along quite nicely.

By 20th level, he'll have 9th level spells, 100' move, +3 to AC (as well as Wisdom), 3 Favored enemies, swift tracking, 4 Rages per day as well as Power Attack and Cleave for free, Water Breathing (unlimited), Call Lightning SLA (1/day), natural armor and a +1 bonus to Str, Con and Wis.

He'll be fast and strong, a decent hunter (with Great Axe and Longbow for free as well as tracking with bonuses to survival), having full druid casting (being 3 levels behind in spells, but not in Caster Level).

Plus he'll be a ton of fun to RP, since he'll have problems speaking in Common ('Nyf smash!) but be very cogent in Orcish (basically, my speech patterns will be different depending if I'm thinking/speaking in Orcish or Common).

Can't wait to actually take him for a spin :)

Theo

Irreverent Fool
2008-09-24, 07:13 PM
Did somebody mention spellcasting governed by non-mental stats?



I present for you the Student of the Atlas School, a Str-based spellcasting class! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-68276.html)

The Students of Atlas scorn the weak ivory-tower mages who ignore their physical bodies to leech power via magical rites; they are equally contemptuous of sorcerers who rely on inheritance and personality to gain sorcerous might. To a Student of Atlas, the power of both is a sham; the only true power in this world is the power of a lean, muscular body. The Students of Atlas devote themselves to developing their beautiful muscles; they are so strong that, with a mere flex and a few boastful words, they can produce magical effects, as reality itself reshapes around their toned, muscular form. However, they are narcissistic, and must devote a certain percentage of their magic to improving their own body. Their study of bodybuilding is also focused almost entirely on the sheer, raw effect that a muscular body has, embodied in a physical presence not unlike the power a sorcerer normally gains from the strength of their personality; they do not normally study arms or physical combat, although it is not uncommon for them to branch out in that direction once they feel their studies in the Atlas school itself are complete.

A student of the atlas school is an arcane caster who casts Str-based spells. They learn and cast spells as a sorcerer, with the additional restriction that a certain percentage of their spells must be devoted to personal or touch-range buff spells (from a list.) There are some spells, such as Bull's Strength, that they are absolutely required to take; these still take up spells-known slots. Additionally, they are barred from learning or using evocation or necromancy spells (and derive no benefit from this). Finally, they refuse to cast any spell that will weaken their prestine bodies, viewing it as a bad trade in any circumstances; specifically, they will not cast any spell with an XP cost, and can learn such spells only when they have (and only for use with) a non-xp-costing option, such as Gate for travel.

Aside from these restrictions, they can fill their remaining slots with whatever they wish.

They do get some other advantages to make up for the restrictions. They have a whopping d10 for HP, and both good fort and will saves; they have a slightly expanded skill list over a sorcerer, including skills such as intimidate, climb, jump, and swim (however, they still only get 2 + int mod skill points per level, and with no real use for int, they are unlikely to be good at much.) They eventually get abilities that let them apply their Str modifier as an (additional) bonus to many charisma-based checks and bonuses, such as intimidate or diplomacy; and to substitute it for their con for the purposes of calculating their fort save. Although they are suitable to develop into a gish caster with the proper training, the class itself provides no special advantages in this direction beyond Str-based spellcasting itself.

To recover their spells, they must rest for eight hours, followed by 10-15 minutes of rigorous exercise and flexing.

I thought there was a whole write-up for this class, but I can't seem to find it.

JaxGaret
2008-09-24, 07:30 PM
As long as you stay away from casting spells that allow saves, having a -2 to a mental stat isn't that bad for a caster. You only lose a couple of spell slots.

This obviously leads to buffing or utility types being great choices for an Orcish caster. Orc Clerics who self-buff are quite mean.

Chronos
2008-09-24, 10:15 PM
Some months ago, someone posted a tale from their game of an orc tribe led by an unusually smart and wise adept. His rival, a barbarian, tried to take over from the "weakling", but got thoroughly smacked down by the adept and his skeletons.

Now if only I could find the thread...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-24, 11:56 PM
Magic-Blooded (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs):

Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Wis -4
Base land speed 30 ft., Swim speed 30 ft.
Low-Light Vision (replaces both darkvision and light sensitivity)
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against creatures of the fire subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
-2 penalty on all saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities with the fire subtype or used by creatures of the fire subtype, including extraplanar creatures from the Elemental Plane of Fire.
+2 Racial bonus on Spellcraft checks & the skill can be used
untrained.
+2 Racial bonus on Knowledge (arcana) checks & the skill can be
used untrained.
Spell-Like Abilities, caster level equals character level, each usable 1/day: Detect Magic, Read Magic, and Magic Aura.
Favored Class: Sorcerer
Level Adjustment: +0


I'd go for Battle Sorcerer, Hexblade, or Dread Necromancer. Also combine Battle Sorcerer (UA) with Stalwart Sorcerer (CM) for far fewer spells/day/known but quite a bit more HP and combat ability, as follows:
Stalwart Battle Sorcerer spell/day and spells known by level:

Spells/Day Spells Known
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 4 2 - - - - - - - - 1 3 1 - - - - - - - -
2 5 3 - - - - - - - - 2 4 1 - - - - - - - -
3 5 4 - - - - - - - - 3 4 1 - - - - - - - -
4 5 5 2 - - - - - - - 4 5 1 1 - - - - - - -
5 5 5 3 - - - - - - - 5 5 2 1 - - - - - - -
6 5 5 4 2 - - - - - - 6 6 2 1 1 - - - - - -
7 5 5 5 3 - - - - - - 7 6 4 1 1 - - - - - -
8 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - - 8 7 4 1 1 1 - - - - -
9 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - - 9 7 4 3 1 1 - - - - -
10 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - - 10 8 4 3 1 1 1 - - - -
11 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - - 11 8 4 4 3 1 1 - - - -
12 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - - 12 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 - - -
13 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - - 13 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 - - -
14 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - - 14 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 - -
15 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - - 15 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 - -
16 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - 16 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 -
17 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 - 17 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 -
18 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 18 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 19 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 20 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1
For a Magic-Blooded Water Orc Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, I'd probably get proficiency in Armor Spikes from Battle Sorcerer and Glaive from Stalwart Sorcerer. That gets 1d8+2 plus Con mod HP/level (max like a d10 class, average like a d12 class), 3/4 BAB, and they can get Improved Familiar (CW) for a Howler to use as a mount. Get the typical Gish feats and spells, maybe pick up the feat Frightful Presence from the Draconomicon, and just go single-classed. That would turn out to be a very powerful opponent for PCs to face, especially in numbers or with some basic warriors for support.