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Bulwer
2008-09-24, 04:38 PM
I'm looking for help building a good Warmage. The setting is combat-heavy, and others in the party can handle skills, so what I'm looking to make is a warmage that sticks pretty close to its core function: killing things with magic.

I'm starting from level 1, and I'd like for the build to be playable and fun from the start. What PrCs, feats, and extra spells are good for a warmage? I can use anything (yes, anything) from any Wizards book, but I don't really want to minmax the hell out of it.

Thanks for helping!

ColonelFuster
2008-09-24, 04:43 PM
Hey, man, if you don't want to minmax the hell out of it, don't ask the people here:smallbiggrin: My advice would be to focus on ranged touch attacks and maybe go for spellwarp sniper or magical trickster, depending on what you're going for. A better choice might be Warlock, just because you can have a moderate base attack bonus and an inexhaustible supply of magic, which can save your butt in a wartime campaign. If you're looking at a mook-heavy campaign, don't be hesitant to go sorcerer or wizard and do a fear-based PrC like Dread Witch or Nightmare Spinner.

Bulwer
2008-09-24, 04:48 PM
Hey, man, if you don't want to minmax the hell out of it, don't ask the people here:smallbiggrin: My advice would be to focus on ranged touch attacks and maybe go for spellwarp sniper or magical trickster, depending on what you're going for. A better choice might be Warlock, just because you can have a moderate base attack bonus and an inexhaustible supply of magic, which can save your butt in a wartime campaign. If you're looking at a mook-heavy campaign, don't be hesitant to go sorcerer or wizard and do a fear-based PrC like Dread Witch or Nightmare Spinner.

Thanks for the advice. Re minmaxing: Minmaxing the heck is okay, the hell, perhaps not. It's a question of degree, y'see? :)

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 04:54 PM
As a Warmage, your biggest obstacle will be your limited spell selection. Sandstorm offers the wonderful Prestige Class named "Sandshaper" which adds a whole ton of sand-related spells, a few of which very useful, to your spelllist as castables! It's a very decent option for any spontaneous caster and double that for something as limited as Warmage.

Other options include the usual - Incantatrix [Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings] is as broken as ever (but you can make it only "extremely good" by using it with a Charisma-based class like Warmage and focusing on metamagicking damage spells with Chain, Empower, Maximize and company), Unseen Seer [Complete Mage] is great for sniping single targets (gives you Sneak Attack) and expands your spell list, but takes some work to enter (requires Divinations), Recaster [Races of Eberron] is handy with extra Suddens and all that (not that good for Warmage though as it overlaps with your core abilities) and so on. Some qualifications are tricky, but for example Mage of the Arcane Order [Complete Arcana] pretty much solves your limited spell selection entirely (of course, if you solely want to blow things up, it's not really necessary, but generally you'll want to blow things up under the effects of Mirror Image and Greater Invisibility, for example, to be hurt less, and use stuff like Enervation to blow things up more efficiently).

One thing is for sure though: You want Residual Magic [Complete Mage] to get extra bang from your Sudden Metamagic. Also, Rapid Metamagic [Complete Mage] is a godsent for Warmages since it allows you to actually utilize Quicken Spell (otherwise the spell casting time is extended since you're a spontaneous caster and you just can't use it) and allows you to move and cast metamagicked spells each turn. So those two and a few metamagic feats for sure.

MeklorIlavator
2008-09-24, 04:55 PM
One thing I'd ask your DM is if you can exchange spells(on a one for one basis) for those found in other books, per his review, and only exchanging spells for ones of the same school or Evocation. This allows much better access to some spells in the PHB 2, Comp Mag, Divine, and the Spell Compendium. This isn't so much a power bump as allowing you to change your focus slightly(and it does fit the flavor, plus its suggested in the spell compenduim). Also, check with your Dm to see if you can stack sudden metamagic feats.

Oh, and the PHB 2 alternate ability is much better than the PHB 2 one: you already have most of the good evocation spells, so you should expand your range a tiny bit if possible.

Toliudar
2008-09-24, 05:01 PM
For a SLIGHTLY more versatile Warmage, I like the Arcane Disciple feat (CDiv). Adds to MAD, but depending on the domain chosen, can give some additional movement, counterspelling, healing etc options for the character.

Bulwer
2008-09-24, 05:15 PM
For a SLIGHTLY more versatile Warmage, I like the Arcane Disciple feat (CDiv). Adds to MAD, but depending on the domain chosen, can give some additional movement, counterspelling, healing etc options for the character.

I like it, but I'd have to use str as my dump stat instead of wis. Is there any other feat like this (that adds spells to my list with easy prereqs)?

EDIT: My stats are 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, and 9. I've gotta throw something under the bus, and I like to carry things and hit other things.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-24, 05:19 PM
I like it, but I'd have to use str as my dump stat instead of wis. Is there any other feat like this (that adds spells to my list with easy prereqs)?Few feats, but there are quite a few PrCs. Rainbow Savant, Voyeuristic Seer, Sandshaper, and a couple of others. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-674335) and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-387294) have some lists of stuff, but there's not many feats that will do it without dips.

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 05:32 PM
I like it, but I'd have to use str as my dump stat instead of wis. Is there any other feat like this (that adds spells to my list with easy prereqs)?

EDIT: My stats are 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, and 9. I've gotta throw something under the bus, and I like to carry things and hit other things.

You definitely should build something mad and dump Str with those stats. Normally, Arcane Disciple is pretty weak just because you can't afford the stats it needs, but with those stats in pretty much that order, you'd have 7th level Divines without even trying. Heward's Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding or party Fighter = all the carrying capacity you'll ever need. Seriously, that's a gift horse right there. Don't look it in the mouth, you've got 5 great stats, which is more than any D&D character has any right having :P Btw, you could be middle-aged putting your stats:

18 Cha
16 Wis
15 Int
17 Con
14 Dex
9 Str

That would give you 19 Cha (awesome), 17 Wis, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Dex (meh, but you can pick up more - alternatively, switch 15 into Dex, 16 into Int and 14 into Wis - lower Disciple-spells, but closer to higher Edge and such - also, Con and Int could be switched if you're happy with 14 Con and want to maximize Edge), 8 Str, which would pretty much kick all sorts of ass. For especially level 1 kickass (ask your DM if Wisdom-boosting items qualify you for higher level Disciple-spells; if they do, this is the way to go):

19 Cha
15 Wis
18 Int
14 Con
15 Dex
8 Str

That would just plain kick all sorts of ass. As a Human, you'd actually be very skilled even though you're a Warmage (just pick up Charisma-based skills after maxing the naturals - you'll be very good at those even CC). Having +4 Warmage's Edge is an absolute gift from the heavens on level 1 - it over doubles the damage of Magic Missile and even the better spells such as Lesser Orb of Fire. As you progress in levels, it'll fade into triviality (ask your DM to allow you to apply it to every Magic Missile and such even though the book tells you the contrary - otherwise it's completely worthless later on, and it kinda sucks as it's your primary class feature), but for the time being, it'll kick ass if you wanna deal damage.

Bulwer
2008-09-24, 05:57 PM
You definitely should build something mad and dump Str with those stats. Normally, Arcane Disciple is pretty weak just because you can't afford the stats it needs, but with those stats in pretty much that order, you'd have 7th level Divines without even trying. Heward's Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding or party Fighter = all the carrying capacity you'll ever need. Seriously, that's a gift horse right there. Don't look it in the mouth, you've got 5 great stats, which is more than any D&D character has any right having :P Btw, you could be middle-aged putting your stats:

18 Cha
16 Wis
15 Int
17 Con
14 Dex
9 Str

That would give you 19 Cha (awesome), 17 Wis, 16 Int, 16 Con, 13 Dex (meh, but you can pick up more - alternatively, switch 15 into Dex, 16 into Int and 14 into Wis - lower Disciple-spells, but closer to higher Edge and such - also, Con and Int could be switched if you're happy with 14 Con and want to maximize Edge), 8 Str, which would pretty much kick all sorts of ass. For especially level 1 kickass (ask your DM if Wisdom-boosting items qualify you for higher level Disciple-spells; if they do, this is the way to go):

19 Cha
15 Wis
18 Int
14 Con
15 Dex
8 Str

That would just plain kick all sorts of ass. As a Human, you'd actually be very skilled even though you're a Warmage (just pick up Charisma-based skills after maxing the naturals - you'll be very good at those even CC). Having +4 Warmage's Edge is an absolute gift from the heavens on level 1 - it over doubles the damage of Magic Missile and even the better spells such as Lesser Orb of Fire. As you progress in levels, it'll fade into triviality (ask your DM to allow you to apply it to every Magic Missile and such even though the book tells you the contrary - otherwise it's completely worthless later on, and it kinda sucks as it's your primary class feature), but for the time being, it'll kick ass if you wanna deal damage.

You have brightened my day, sir. I am far more enthusiastic about warmagery now.

JaxGaret
2008-09-24, 07:33 PM
One thing I'd ask your DM is if you can exchange spells(on a one for one basis) for those found in other books, per his review, and only exchanging spells for ones of the same school or Evocation. This allows much better access to some spells in the PHB 2, Comp Mag, Divine, and the Spell Compendium. This isn't so much a power bump as allowing you to change your focus slightly(and it does fit the flavor, plus its suggested in the spell compenduim). Also, check with your Dm to see if you can stack sudden metamagic feats.

Oh, and the PHB 2 alternate ability is much better than the PHB 2 one: you already have most of the good evocation spells, so you should expand your range a tiny bit if possible.

These are both excellent suggestions.

There's also the Warmage Build Guide (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-463783.html).

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 08:02 PM
You have brightened my day, sir. I am far more enthusiastic about warmagery now.

I'm glad to have contributed positively (I think?).

Speaking of lists, I forgot:
Treantmonk's guide to Evocation Spells (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=968899) - Advanced Learning gives you any Evocation Spells so make good choices on that list and you'll be very much more versatile (don't pick up stuff that just blows things up - you've already got plenty of those for every sitiuation - pick other stuff that interests you).

Standouts
Level 1:
-Dawnburst: Solves all invisibility-problems you may encounter in a level 1 slot!

Level 2:
-Force Ladder: An effect that can certainly be useful and one you don't normally have access to.

Level 3:
-Blacklight: A lot of added versatility in a level 3 slot - stuff you can't normally do.
-Manyjaws: Long-term Force Fireball at many opponents? Nice.
-Wind Wall: Immune to arrows? Handy, to say the least.
-Greater Thunderclap: Opponent makes 3 saves. Enough said.

Level 5:
-Wall of Force: Stuff you can't normally do, and the best spell at that.

Level 6:
-Howling Chain: Trips people, hurts them, reduces their morale, awesome.
-Contingency: For duh reasons.

Level 7:
-Bigby's Grasping Hand: Solves things. Hard.

Level 8:
-Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere: Handy. Also, transportation.

Level 9:
-Instant Refuge: Yea, teleportation in Evocation. Where do I sign?


EDIT: Also, as a Warmage, your level 0 spells actually pack a punch. Warmage's Edge makes Acid Splash and Ray of Frost into very reasonable 1d3+4 damage spells on the first level. Not the best, but certainly better than nothing. Gives you longetivity on level 1.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, max out Use Magic Device. Then get Obtain Familiar. Congratulations, now you have a Wand-using Familiar. Profit. Although since UMD is crossclass, making it do stuff consistently may take a while. Also, get Improved Familiar to pick up Imp or something with an actual Charisma-score. Too bad they can't bask in your glory. Anyways, since you're Cha-based, you'll be using Wands and stuff in no time and that'll solve much of your problems. You can even use Healing Wands and Revivify Scrolls and stuff.

Bulwer
2008-09-24, 08:24 PM
PHBII allows substituting Eclectic Learning, which lets you pick any Wiz/Sorc spell but it counts as one level higher. That opens up a lot more options, too.

Edit: No Floating Disc?

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 08:32 PM
I wouldn't probably pick up Floating Disk - you can generally get the same job done without it. I'd pick up stuff that really enhances your versatility and such. Ecletic Learning kicks ass. I'd definitely get Limited Wish when the time comes. Beyond that, it's anybody's game. I'd probably pick up Glitterdust or Web, possibly instead of Dawnburst. It's kinda out there. But yea, that really opens up the options. Greater Dispel Magic seems like a solid choice too, although the levels fall kinda dumb. Really though, it's kinda annoying to be a magic unable to dispel. I mean, most protection from your spells is magical and it's really annoying if you can't get rid of that. Assay Resistance [SC] and Teleport are other spells really worth consideration for Eclectic Learning.

As for your skills, I'd always max out:
Intimidate (you could also pick up Imperious Command [Drow of the Underdark] to do something with no Magic in combat)
Spellcraft
Concentrate
Knowledge: Arcana
and perhaps Knowledge: History

This leaves you with 2 more skills, which could be Diplomacy and Use Magic Device, for example. Alternatively, Bluff instead of Knowledge: History. Could also use Gather Information or such - I'd stick to Charisma-based skills as those are the ones you can get meaningful rolls in cross-class too, since you'll really pimp out your Cha.

Eldariel
2008-09-24, 09:17 PM
Also, Domains that may be of interest for you for Arcane Disciple:
-Air: Obscuring Mist, Wind Wall, Air Walk, Control Weather, Control Winds - the latter two are superb mass destruction spells, and you get a form of flight in Air Walk and Wind Wall's "pro arrows" at level 2, also Obscuring Mist
-Healing: Heal, Regenerate, Mass Heal - well, duh, if you need to be able to heal, this is the way
-Magic: Identify, Dispel Magic, Imbue with Spell-Like Ability (superb for Familiar), Spell Resistance, Anti-Magic Field, Spell Turning, Disjunction - a great domain early on with some standouts later; only problem is, it doesn't recieve Greater Dispel Magic
-Strength: Enlarge Person, Magic Vestment, Righteous Might, Bigby's Hands - Depending on other party members, the buffs and Hands may be useful
-Travel: Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, Astral Projection - This one is obvious
-Trickery: Disguise Self, Invisibility, Nondetection, Mislead, PAO, Time Stop - Some nice tricks early on and bombs in the end.

Spell Compendium:
-Celerity: Blur, Haste, Tree Stride, Greater Blink, Wind Walk, Time Step - some handy buffs, "teleportation" and later bombs.
-Charm: Charms - I'm just bringing this up since you're Charisma-based which greatly enhances all Charm-effects.
-Envy: Disguise Self, bla bla bla bla bla, Limited Wish, bla bla bla - Well, it's prolly better to pick it through Eclectic Learning, but Limited Wish is übergreat.
-Liberation: Undetectable Alignment, Rage, Freedom of Movement, Greater Dispel Magic, Mind Blank - Some handy early buffs and most importantly, the elusive Greater Dispel Magic. Also, Mind Blank is awesome (something you'll always want). And Omen of Peril gives you some very limited Divination-ability.
-Portal: Dimension Door, Teleportation, Etherealness, Maze, Gate - Follows the pattern of early movement, late bombs.
-Spell: Silence, Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Limited Wish, AMF, Disjunction - Anyspells and Limited Wish are hard to beat. Also, Silence is a killer vs. mid-level casters. When cast on an object, no save. Too bad there's no Greater Dispel Magic here.
-Summoner: Planar Allies, Summons, Gate - Planar Allies are definitely awesome for you as you're Charisma-based and Gate is busted. Summons can fill in occasionally.
-Time: Haste, Freedom of Movement, Permanency, Contingency, Foresight, Time Stop - What can I say. A pretty much allstar line-up right there. Pick up Celerity through Eclectic Learning and enjoy level 16 Foresight + Celerity nonsense (until DM bans it). Other handy spells too.


That's about it. In my eyes, the standouts are:
-Trickery
-Liberation
-Spell
-Summoner

All of them give you different flavours of versatility you just don't have normally. My personal pick is Spell since Anyspell, Greater Anyspell and Limited Wish just pretty much open up any spells you could possibly want to you. The others are handy too. Then you'd have to pick up Dispel Magic through Eclectic Learning, but beyond that there aren't too many hoops to jump through. Further, Spell-domain is pretty much natural for any god of magic, which is a natural god for you to worship.

Liberation is the other option I'd consider. Having Freedom of Movement, some buffs, Greater Dispel Magic and Mind Blank just gives you an entire new dimension of abilities. Still, since Spell also offers all manners of Teleportation, Flight and such, I'd say it wins out in the end.

Of course, Anyspells are written for Clerics so the RAW basically states they do nothing for non-Clerics. That's easily remedied by slight sensible houserules though. You may have to pick up Arcane Preparation [Complete Arcane] to get it done though. It's all out there, really.