The why can't the eagles fly oots to Mordor question

[HamsterOfTheGod]

OK so V is researching spells. We know Conjuration is barred for him V but Illusion and Univeral spells are not. So why not research

1) Shadow Walk - It's 6th level and should allow V, and anyone that wants to accompany him, to travel about 700 miles per casting. We're not sure how far out they are from Azure City and the spell is not exact but it would be a way to get back there very quickly. (Durkon could do the same with Wind Walk but Durkon seems to want to stay with Hinjo for the moment.)

2) Greater Shadow Conjuration - It's 7th level and each casting let's V emulate Teleport with a 60% chance of success. (See below (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4982704#post4982704))

3) Limited Wish - For 300 xp V can Teleport back to Azure City.

[Fawkes]

Here's a better question: how does V keep casting spells without ever trancing?

[Aeriander]

Here's a better question: how does V keep casting spells without ever trancing?

[S]he doesn't have to trance, just prepare for an hour or so.

[Rogue 7]

V probably wants a lot more information before they go. For all they know, they'll be jumping right in the middle of an army of hobgoblins with an epic-level lich with them. Not fun times.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Here's a better question: how does V keep casting spells without ever trancing?

Well there's a rule-lawyering out of that one, "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#rest)

[Studoku]

:elan: Summon Faq (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)



Q: In Strip #X, why didn.t character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or .forgetting. major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

Writer and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski had a standard answer for overzealous fans who would ask him obscure questions like, .How fast does a Starfury (the show.s standard fighter ship) fly?. He would say, .They travel at the speed of plot,. meaning that if the script called for them to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, they could.and if the script called for them to get there too late, they couldn.t. The Order of the Stick travels almost exclusively at the speed of plot.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

V probably wants a lot more information before they go. For all they know, they'll be jumping right in the middle of an army of hobgoblins with an epic-level lich with them. Not fun times.

Well the first time V, and the others, went to Azure City, they took the scenic route (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). So I'm sure V know of a place near to Azure City but far enough away to be a relatively safe starting point.

Anyways, if they get into trouble they can Shadow Walk, Limited Wish (or Word of Recall if Durkon's along) right back.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

:elan: Summon Faq (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7)

Yes I know...but I'm not asking Rich. More to the point, the question is starting to nag me as V gets more and more potent spells. While V was still somewhat less than awesome, I could bide V being impotent with regards to Ms Starshine.

[Chronos]

2) Greater Shadow Conjuration - It's 7th level and each casting let's V emulate Teleport with a 60% chance of success.Doesn't work. Shadow Conjuration only lets you emulate the Summoning and Creation subschools, not Teleportation.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Doesn't work. Shadow Conjuration only lets you emulate the Summoning and Creation subschools, not Teleportation.

Woops. Missed that. I stand corrected on that point.

[SPoD]

Getting back to Azure City is not the problem. If they wanted to go back to Azure City, they could do so any of several ways. The problem is, they don't know if Haley is IN Azure City. But they DO know that Xykon's forces control it now. So, the question is, is it worth it to walk into Xykon's stronghold to look for Haley when they don't even know that she's there? The answer, so far, has been, "No."

Also, the Cloister would still block Shadow Walk; it denies any form of extradimensional travel.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Getting back to Azure City is not the problem. If they wanted to go back to Azure City, they could do so any of several ways. The problem is, they don't know if Haley is IN Azure City. But they DO know that Xykon's forces control it now. So, the question is, is it worth it to walk into Xykon's stronghold to look for Haley when they don't even know that she's there? The answer, so far, has been, "No."

That I could buy but either the recent expression of V's power or the length of time spent in the side trek has made me question that.



Also, the Cloister would still block Shadow Walk; it denies any form of extradimensional travel.
Well Celia says the effect would hamper "any transportation magic from breaching an area up to several miles wide." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) So an attempt to use transportation magic might be dangerous and maybe V suspects that this is so. This might be why V came up with Greater Animal Messenger which if similar to the 2nd level spell is an compulsion which makes the animal messengers travel by ordinary means to the destination.

Still, the failure of the Greater Animal Messenger spell, V's desperate obsession with finding Haley, and V's over-confidence in being able to deal with most obstacles would lead me to believe that V would be trying a more direct approach, namely going there V-self.

[SPoD]

That I could buy but either the recent expression of V's power or the length of time spent in the side trek has made me question that.

V's power is exactly the same as it was during the Battle of Azure City. Prismatic Spray is a 7th level spell, which V could cast back then, too. S/he hasn't substantially gained in power, only in new spells.


Well Celia says the effect would hamper "any transportation magic from breaching an area up to several miles wide." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) So an attempt to use transportation magic might be dangerous and maybe V suspects that this is so. This might be why V came up with Greater Animal Messenger which if similar to the 2nd level spell is an compulsion which makes the animal messengers travel by ordinary means to the destination.

Still, the failure of the Greater Animal Messenger spell, V's desperate obsession with finding Haley, and V's over-confidence in being able to deal with most obstacles would lead me to believe that V would be trying a more direct approach, namely going there V-self.

S/he may still yet do so. The over-confidence is something that is growing in stages, it may not yet have reached the point of, "Screw this, I'm going alone."

[HamsterOfTheGod]

V's power is exactly the same as it was during the Battle of Azure City. Prismatic Spray is a 7th level spell, which V could cast back then, too. S/he hasn't substantially gained in power, only in new spells.

Well a wizard's power is his/her known spells...



S/he may still yet do so. The over-confidence is something that is growing in stages, it may not yet have reached the point of, "Screw this, I'm going alone."
I concede the point that maybe V has not yet reached the "Cartman" point.

However, it just occurs to me there is one small detail overlooked...like you said...

The problem is, they don't know if Haley is IN Azure City. But they DO know that Xykon's forces control it now.
...ah but how do they know Xykon's forces control Azure City? We know RC has made some contact with nearby traders but apparently not with certain gnomes...Hinjo has been sailing far away...IF V could clairvoy AC or scry on say RC, THEN V could confirm what they "know". But V can't do that because of the cloister. In fact if V had tried to clairvoy on AC or scry on RC, V might have confirmed his/her suspicion that divinations were being blocked since divinations on anything near AC would have returned the same error. And it's not illogical to try to divine something in AC other than Haley if only to perhaps find some clue to what happened to Haley. It's a bit of nitpick yes, but if V is really convinced that saving the world necessitates finding Haley and reviving Roy and that following Hinjo is wasting time then it only makes sense for V to leave for AC...a Happy Coincidence given 596, no?

[Silverlocke980]

Because that's crappy writing....

Ignoring that? Goodness knows that while V's a powerful spellcaster, it isn't that good of a spellcaster. Even with what spells it knows, V is more interested in finding Haley and its other companions, whose whereabouts are currently unknown...

Even if V could, V has to find the others first.

[Wizardzo]

Because that's crappy writing....

Ignoring that? Goodness knows that while V's a powerful spellcaster, it isn't that good of a spellcaster. Even with what spells it knows, V is more interested in finding Haley and its other companions, whose whereabouts are currently unknown...

Even if V could, V has to find the others first.


Refering to V as it is pretty funny. ^^

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Because that's crappy writing....
I'm not the writer here. I'm just pointing out the logic of the situation as presented within the story and the accepted world rules.



Ignoring that? Goodness knows that while V's a powerful spellcaster, it isn't that good of a spellcaster. Even with what spells it knows, V is more interested in finding Haley and its other companions, whose whereabouts are currently unknown...

Even if V could, V has to find the others first.
Not sure what you mean here. My point is that V's divinations have been blocked. V and Durkon discuss the reasons why here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html). In 503 V specifically states that he/she thinks divinations may be blocked and in 504 V states divinations may be failing because Haley is dead. So it would stand to reason to try to scry or divine something or someone near to Haley's last known location or possible captors in order to learn of Haley's status by inference. It's not as if V has not had the time. For ex, suppose V were to try to clairvoy on AC with the intent of trying to see/hear the goings on the of hobgobs and to get news of AC. One of hobgobs might say something that will give a clue to what is happening in AC or to Haley. If the clairvoyance could work then a hobgob might have been heard talking about a resistance. In fact, it would turn out that the clairvoyance would get an error saying the you could not scry the location and this would go for any location in or near Azure City. This would itself be a clue that there is indeed a powerful divination block and that more direct action would need to be taken to find Haley.

In fact, in 503, in panel 6, Durkon argues that V does have to change plans after 3 months of trying divinations. Durkon's plan seems to be for the 3 of them to strike out on their own to find Girard's gate and save the world. V argues that it would be more direct to find Haley first. Well if V believes that, then it only seems logical that V has to go to the last know location and see for his/herself what is going on.

[FujinAkari]

.IF V could clairvoy AC or scry on say RC, THEN V could confirm what they "know". But V can't do that because of the cloister. In fact if V had tried to clairvoy on AC or scry on RC, V might have confirmed his/her suspicion that divinations were being blocked since divinations on anything near AC would have returned the same error.

Trouble is... what does V know to scry? Xykon? The fact that scries fail against a caster 10 levels above you doesn't tell you anything, its expected. Redcloak? Well, assuming V is aware that Redcloak is even there (they were very much separated during the battle, so V might not even be aware of RC) then V's inability to scry on someone who wears an artifact-level magic item also doesn't tell him anything.

Everyone else he knows is in AC (Miko, O-chul, Haley, and Belkar) has a significant chance of being dead, leaving V as frustrated and clueless as he is now, but its hard to fault him for not going "Hey! I keep scrying on people and it fails... I should go investigate why all of them seem to be dead!"

[factotum]

Well, assuming V is aware that Redcloak is even there (they were very much separated during the battle, so V might not even be aware of RC)

You don't think he might have noticed his presence when he Disintegrated Hinjo as they were leaving, then?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Trouble is... what does V know to scry? Xykon? The fact that scries fail against a caster 10 levels above you doesn't tell you anything, its expected. Redcloak? Well, assuming V is aware that Redcloak is even there (they were very much separated during the battle, so V might not even be aware of RC) then V's inability to scry on someone who wears an artifact-level magic item also doesn't tell him anything.

1. Someone already said that V knows of Redcloak.
2. I said use clairvoyance, a lower level spell which should be relatively easy for V to research or buy. Clairvoyance only requires knowledge of an area and V knows Azure City pretty well.(I explain the logical reason why clairvoyance might be used above.)



Everyone else he knows is in AC (Miko, O-chul, Haley, and Belkar) has a significant chance of being dead, leaving V as frustrated and clueless as he is now, but its hard to fault him for not going "Hey! I keep scrying on people and it fails... I should go investigate why all of them seem to be dead!"
All the more reason to scry on them. Each character has a percentage to be dead Haley, Belkar, Miko, O-Chul. But you don't know they are dead. Scrying on one character might let you know where another is. For example, if you scried on Belkar he might mention something that would lead you to believe Haley was dead, or captured or whatever. By focusing on only 1 character with ever more powerful divinations, and the comic implies that is what is going on, then V keeps running into the same logical puzzle (are divinations blocked or is Haley dead).

By scrying on others or using clairvoyance on varius locations on Azure city, something V has had pklenty of time to do over 3 months, V could have been
A. gathering second-hand info on Haley or
B. confirming that a high level divination block is at work

Either way, V would have made progress. Givent that
I. B would have happened not A, and that
II. V can have the ability to travel long distances quickly even without teleport, and that
III. V feel is of utmost importance to find Haley in order to save the world

then it seems logical to me that V should soon be traveling to a location near Azure City from which to spy directly or should have already done so.

I'm not saying it's a huge plot hole. I'm just saying the small rift is starting to grow...

[pjackson]

2. I said use clairvoyance, a lower level spell which should be relatively easy for V to research or buy. Clairvoyance only requires knowledge of an area and V knows Azure City pretty well.(I explain the logical reason why clairvoyance might be used above.)


Why do you think V hasn't tried it?
It should fail like all other non-epic divinations cast on AC from outside.
V does not have the power to penetrate Xykon's Cloister.

[The Tygre]

Ah, now the ball is in Pharaun Mizzrym's court!

Despite the many of you that nay-say War of the Spider Queen, I love it. I just finished Resurrection and found that up until the end one of my favorite characters was Pharaun. As I recall, this was almost exactly the same problem he had; why can't we just shadow-walk to wherever? Because the Plane of Shadows is full of monsters. Big, nasty, evil, usually undead monsters. Now if the law of OotS probability states that Qarr could summon a Pit Fiend, I imagine the same applies to, oh say, encountering a hunting party of nightwalkers.

That and I think Rich isn't sure how to illustrate the Plane of Shadow OotS style. Hell, I'm still not sure how to imagine most of it real-world style.

[NerfTW]

You don't think he might have noticed his presence when he Disintegrated Hinjo as they were leaving, then?

I actually don't think V knows WHO RC is. Just that he's a goblin leading the troops and apparently powerful. Remember that he was just a random goblin out of many the previous time they met.

As for why V doesn't just teleport, that's extremely obvious. The Cloister spell extends several miles. That's a LOT of area that Haley could be in, even if they assume she left the city. She's also still under the effects of cloister, and V doesn't know about Celia, so he/she can't scry on her.

If V were to teleport in, then they'd have to teleport several miles away from Azure city, and explore without incurring the wraith of Xykon, Redcloak, and several thousand hobgoblins. Extremely risky for a method that doesn't help them at all if Haley is either in the city or long gone.


Why do you think Rich bothered to include the whole "no teleports" clause in the cloister spell? To avoid just such a solution from presenting itself.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Why do you think V hasn't tried it?
It should fail like all other non-epic divinations cast on AC from outside.
V does not have the power to penetrate Xykon's Cloister.

If he had tried "it", by it I mean scrying others and clairvoying Azure City, then he would be sure there was a high level divination block.

Look the hole is not that the cloister can't be defeated. It is Epic after all.

The small plot hole is that V wants to find Haley but that he can't confirm that there is a high level divination block.

Further I'm only using the plot and character assumptions that it is V alone who is both desperate to find Haley and has some means of doing so. Because, if Durkon was willing to help and V and Durkon were communicating well, then Durkon could clairvoy (no need for V to buy or research the spell) or scry (and thereby doubling scrying time) and confrm the high level divination block. Then Drukon could get a planar ally like a astral deva to find Haley or scout Azure City for them (no need for V's Greater Animal Messenger) or Wind Walk (not blocked by the cloister) with V and Elan to Azure City with Word of Recall as an emergency escape.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Ah, now the ball is in Pharaun Mizzrym's court!

Agreed!


Despite the many of you that nay-say War of the Spider Queen, I love it. I just finished Resurrection and found that up until the end one of my favorite characters was Pharaun.

Me too!


As I recall, this was almost exactly the same problem he had; why can't we just shadow-walk to wherever? Because the Plane of Shadows is full of monsters. Big, nasty, evil, usually undead monsters. Now if the law of OotS probability states that Qarr could summon a Pit Fiend, I imagine the same applies to, oh say, encountering a hunting party of nightwalkers.

Nothing is stopping Rich from covering the small hole with the same spackle.



That and I think Rich isn't sure how to illustrate the Plane of Shadow OotS style. Hell, I'm still not sure how to imagine most of it real-world style.
If there is one thing I don't doubt it's Rich's creativity.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If he had tried "it", by it I mean scrying others and clairvoying Azure City, then he would be sure there was a high level divination block.

Look the hole is not that the cloister can't be defeated. It is Epic after all.

The small plot hole is that V wants to find Haley but that he doesn't realize there is a high level divination block.

Further I'm only using the plot and character assumptions that it is V alone who is both desperate to find Haley and has some means of doing so. Because, if Durkon was willing to help and V and Durkon were communicating well, then Durkon could clairvoy (no need for V to buy or research the spell) or scry (and thereby doubling scrying time) and confrm the high level divination block. Then Drukon could get a planar ally like a astral deva to find Haley or scout Azure City for them (no need for V's Greater Animal Messenger) or Wind Walk (not blocked by the cloister) with V and Elan to Azure City with Word of Recall as an emergency escape.:smallconfused: What makes you think V doesn't realize s/he's being blocked? This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) would seem to show s/he knows it and is trying to get around.

[AKA_Bait]

Also, lets be frank here, if V was going to Limited Wish up a teleport s/he would have to pay a 300 xp cost. I just don't see V doing that.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

I actually don't think V knows WHO RC is. Just that he's a goblin leading the troops and apparently powerful. Remember that he was just a random goblin out of many the previous time they met.

He doesn't need to be on a first name basis. More importantly, he can scry for O-Chul, Miko or Belkar. More importantly, he could clairvoy any location he is familiar with in and near Azure City. Detecting the cloister existence is possible. Celia noticed it because when she got within she could feel its blocking affect on her. Similarly V could detect the clister by noting the inability of all divinations to work in the and around Azure City.



As for why V doesn't just teleport, that's extremely obvious. The Cloister spell extends several miles. That's a LOT of area that Haley could be in, even if they assume she left the city. She's also still under the effects of cloister, and V doesn't know about Celia, so he/she can't scry on her.

If V were to teleport in, then they'd have to teleport several miles away from Azure city, and explore without incurring the wraith of Xykon, Redcloak, and several thousand hobgoblins. Extremely risky for a method that doesn't help them at all if Haley is either in the city or long gone.

IF V researched Shadow Walk or Limited Wish, he could transport to an area nearby to the cloister. It could be far, we don't know how far the cloister extends but certainly it would be much closer than they are now. Then it would only be a matter of moving in quickly while remaining undetected. Is it dangerous? Yes. Is it doing something more effective than just continuosuly hitting your head against the same wall? Yes.



Why do you think Rich bothered to include the whole "no teleports" clause in the cloister spell? To avoid just such a solution from presenting itself.
But the game and story based on a game conventions...that is the D&D rules...make "no teleports" only a barrier against game/story breaking moves.

Look, Rich/V already circumvented the cloister by coming up with Greater Animal Messenger which we can assume is a compulsion which makes normal animals travel whatever distance is necessary under their own power to deliver the message. And it worked except the Belkar killed the messengers. And I bought that.

I'm just saying, that there is still a hole, although the hole is rather small, concerning V's attempts to find out what happened to Haley. As V spends more time and gets more awesome spells, the hole grows larger.

If the plot moves quickly now from 596 to V and company moving closer to to find Haley or if Haley moved far enough away from Azure City to be outside the cloister (and it this point, I assume it means leaving Greysky City), then the plot hole evaporates. But if the current state continues then I have to wonder if V is as good a wizard as he claims he/she is if he /she can't realize why his/her current efforts are futile.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

:smallconfused: What makes you think V doesn't realize s/he's being blocked? This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) would seem to show s/he knows it and is trying to get around.

I already mentioned above that in 503 and 504 V considers it a possibility that divination on Haley is being blocked. But he also says it is possible divinations on Haley are being blocked because Haley is dead. I have also mentioned that by coming up with a Greater Animal Messenger, which we can assume is a compulsion spell, that V is attempting to circumvent a possible divination block.

All I'm pointing out is that it should be possible for V to confirm the presence of the cloister by using scry and clairvoyance judiciously on persons and places of interest in and around Azure City. And that once confirmed, V would probably be willing to risk a scouting/rescue mission. And that if V wanted to go on a scouting/rescue mission, he/she has the potential means to do so.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Also, lets be frank here, if V was going to Limited Wish up a teleport s/he would have to pay a 300 xp cost. I just don't see V doing that.

It would seem to me that 300 xp is not that much to pay for a desperate, hell bent on world salvation, must find Haley if it costs my sanity, kill anything that gets in my way, V.

[AKA_Bait]

It would seem to me that 300 xp is not that much to pay for a desperate, hell bent on world salvation, must find Haley if it costs my sanity, kill anything that gets in my way, V.

Except that in V's mind, to do that s/he must become more powerful. Paying an xp cost, probably several times, in an attempt to get close enough and into AC and discovery Haley's whereabouts runs directly contrary to V's accumulation of additional magical power. I wouldn't be suprised if the idea never even occurred to shim.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Except that in V's mind, to do that s/he must become more powerful. Paying an xp cost, probably several times, in an attempt to get close enough and into AC and discovery Haley's whereabouts runs directly contrary to V's accumulation of additional magical power. I wouldn't be suprised if the idea never even occurred to shim.

OK we can agree to disagree here. You think that paying 300 xp is out of character for V. I don't. But that's OK. we can each have a different tak on the character.

But that only covers the Teleport through Limited Wish part (and Planar Biding through Limited Wish, etc). V could still buy/research Shadow Walk to get back to some place close to Azure City if he/she wanted. And by using Clairoyance, Scry, or Sending and Dream, V could confirm the presence of the cloister. Hell, V might be even able to map it it's area of effect if he/she used enough Clairvoyance spells -- sort of like playing Battleship.

My point is not the exact means since D&D rules offer myriad options -- some of which I have yet to mention because they are evil. The point is that V's inability to confirm the existence of a high level divination block is wearing thin.

[AKA_Bait]

My point is not the exact means since D&D rules offer myriad options -- some of which I have yet to mention because they are evil. The point is that V's inability to confirm the existence of a high level divination block is wearing thin.

What do you mean? V knows there is an effect blocking his scrying. S/he says so in the third panel here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) Also from that panel I think we can infer that all the lower level divinations V and Durkon have access to also didn't work. V indicates that they tried 'every existing divination or communication spell' that either he or Durkon cast. Granted, that's not the same as every such spell that possibly exists in the OotS verse but it heavly imples that it's every spell he or Durkon know about.

Edit: I see, you are talking about V figuring out where the exact physical range of the cloister. Persumably, it goes for miles through heavly guarded territory. Even if V figured out what the overall area covered was, s/he wouldn't be able to mount a sucessful rescue without knowing where Haley was specifically. Physically going there and scouting around is another thing I'm not sure I see V even contemplating. For V magic is the ultimate power and contains the soloution to every problem. Wandering about a looking at stuff with, gasp, your eyes is not even worth doing if magic failed.

[Yendor]

504 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html): "As of yet, every existing divination or communication spell you or I have cast has failed to locate Miss Starshine." That suggests Durkon and V have already tried every relevant spell at their disposal to no avail. V has also mentioned looking for Belkar or Roy with Enhanced Scrying, and Hinjo has said scrying has failed to show anything in Azure City.

V knows there's something blocking scrying. The problem is that V doesn't realize it's epic-level, and won't be defeated just by gaining a level or two.

Anyway, here's one potential solution:
The 8th-level Discern Location can find objects as well as people, and objects aren't specifically targeted by Cloister. It might well fail for objects inside the Cloister, but once they're outside they should be fair game. Any object Durkon or V has touched that they can be reasonably sure is still in Haley's possession (say, her armour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)) would tell them where she is.

[NerfTW]

He doesn't need to be on a first name basis. More importantly, he can scry for O-Chul, Miko or Belkar. More importantly, he could clairvoy any location he is familiar with in and near Azure City. Detecting the cloister existence is possible. Celia noticed it because when she got within she could feel its blocking affect on her. Similarly V could detect the clister by noting the inability of all divinations to work in the and around Azure City.


IF V researched Shadow Walk or Limited Wish, he could transport to an area nearby to the cloister. It could be far, we don't know how far the cloister extends but certainly it would be much closer than they are now. Then it would only be a matter of moving in quickly while remaining undetected. Is it dangerous? Yes. Is it doing something more effective than just continuosuly hitting your head against the same wall? Yes.



We know the area is several miles wide, and that it has a lasting effect. V has clearly been attempting to scry on anyone in the city, he/she can't, because EVERYONE in the city is blocked. V knows something is blocking the scrying.

You do not seem to understand how LARGE a circle of several miles in diameter is. There is no way to effectively search it while it's crawling with hobgoblin patrols. The risk of being attacked and captured or killed is not worth the tiny chance that they might run into Haley, who is already in another city anyways.

I don't see why V insisting on pinpointing Haley's location, which could be anywhere from Azure City to Cliffport to Dorukon's Dungeon by now, before launching a rescue mission makes V a bad wizard. It's just common sense, given that they have no idea WHERE Haley is located. For all they know, she could have left in any direction four months ago, and could be at the next gate waiting for them by now.

[AKA_Bait]

Anyway, here's one potential solution:
The 8th-level Discern Location can find objects as well as people, and objects aren't specifically targeted by Cloister. It might well fail for objects inside the Cloister, but once they're outside they should be fair game. Any object Durkon or V has touched that they can be reasonably sure is still in Haley's possession (say, her armour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)) would tell them where she is.


Frankly, at this point, it doesn't even need to be that compicated. If V just gained a level (possible given the pit fiend), for example, s/he might just go try to scry or use enhanced scrying again. This time it would work since Greysky city isn't within the cloister effect.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

What do you mean? V knows there is an effect blocking his scrying. S/he says so in the third panel here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html)
In panels 3 and 4 in 505 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html), V says the either there is a powerful divination block that is is hampering the attempts to find Haley or the divinations may be failing because she is dead.


Also from that panel I think we can infer that all the lower level divinations V and Durkon have access to also didn't work. V indicates that they tried 'every existing divination or communication spell' that either he or Durkon cast. Granted, that's not the same as every such spell that possibly exists in the OotS verse but it heavly imples that it's every spell he or Durkon know about.

Yes but in panel 3 of 504 V states and I quote, "As of yet, every existing divination or communication spell that either you [Durkon] or I have cast has failed to locate Ms Starshine" which implies that they have not tried to confirm the nature and type of block in a systematic way.



Edit: I see, you are talking about V figuring out where the exact physical range of the cloister. Persumably, it goes for miles through heavly guarded territory. Even if V figured out what the overall area covered was, s/he wouldn't be able to mount a sucessful rescue without knowing where Haley was specifically. Physically going there and scouting around is another thing I'm not sure I see V even contemplating. For V magic is the ultimate power and contains the soloution to every problem. Wandering about a looking at stuff with, gasp, your eyes is not even worth doing if magic failed.
I am assuming V thinks magic is the ultimate answer to everything. My problem with the current status of V's search is not that V must/would mount a successful rescue mission but that V has not used the magical means available to him/her to figure out that further remote divination or communication is impossible. If V could figure that out then a rescue scouting mission by V would be an option, one I think V would try. But there are also other ,magical, options once V realizes that a cloister like spell is in effect.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

...ah but how do they know Xykon's forces control Azure City? We know RC has made some contact with nearby traders but apparently not with certain gnomes...Hinjo has been sailing far away...

Well, when they last saw Azure City it was pretty much completely overrun with all the high level troops dead or dead (with a few escaping). I'd think it would be a sure bet that the enemy forces, if not Xykon himself, would probably still be there.


V might have confirmed his/her suspicion that divinations were being blocked since divinations on anything near AC would have returned the same error. And it's not illogical to try to divine something in AC other than Haley if only to perhaps find some clue to what happened to Haley.

I don't really see the point - when Haley was still in Azure City as V assumed, and all her spells were being blocked (which V is fully aware is happening, as she states in strip 504) what would be the use of wasting valuable casting time/ingredients/spell slots to try divining something else just to confirm the effect blocking her is universal all over the City?

Her plan is a bit stubborn, but there was some logic to "perhaps if I come up with a new, more powerful spell the effect blocking my other spells won't be able to stop it".

Of course the point became redundant when Haley left Azure since nothing should be stopping V's spells now. Of course V can't know that the simplest divination spells he has access to will now work.


All the more reason to scry on them. Each character has a percentage to be dead Haley, Belkar, Miko, O-Chul. But you don't know they are dead. Scrying on one character might let you know where another is. For example, if you scried on Belkar he might mention something that would lead you to believe Haley was dead, or captured or whatever. By focusing on only 1 character with ever more powerful divinations, and the comic implies that is what is going on, then V keeps running into the same logical puzzle (are divinations blocked or is Haley dead).

Well, V is rational. She knows O'Chul was last in the throne room, home of things like Xykon and then a massive castle levelling explosion. Miko was last seen unbalanced and depowered in a jail cell, not to far from the afore mentioned explosion. Belkar is a difficult to control, psychotic halfling with poor hiding/life preservation skills who would be unable to defend himself from living opponents in the city plus he is handicapped by the whole "Roy's body" thing. Haley, however, is a reasonably high level rogue. Compared to the others listed she is a character made for surviving this kind of thing and thriving in such a hostile urban environment.

If V was looking to focus his efforts on the one person who still had a very good chance of being alive then Haley is the only logical choice.


then it seems logical to me that V should soon be traveling to a location near Azure City from which to spy directly or should have already done so.

Personally I think V is a bit shaken due to the last time she faced an army almost alone (though she'd never admit it). She doesn't want to hurry back unprepared into what could be a similar situation.

So say V suggested "I have a plan, I have researched a spell that will allow myself, with others, to return to the general vicinity of Azure City where we can attempt physical and magical scouting there until we find Miss Starshine or information regarding her" who would go? Elan maybe. Hinjo and Lien are out, as is Durkon. Nobody else on the fleet who would likely be much help. So it would likely be V almost alone.

Now depending on how complete the picture V has of the blocking spell she might know it covers all of Azure city. If she had that kind of idea then she'd know it wouldn't really be possible to do much on the ground there, because the area is huge - one or two people in an entire occupied city? So wanting to really find them magically seems very V, and not totally off.

[AKA_Bait]

I am assuming V thinks magic is the ultimate answer to everything. My problem with the current status of V's search is not that V must/would mount a successful rescue mission but that V has not used the magical means available to him/her to figure out that further remote divination or communication is impossible. If V could figure that out then a rescue scouting mission by V would be an option, one I think V would try. But there are also other ,magical, options once V realizes that a cloister like spell is in effect.

Well, wasn't that what the Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html)spell was an attempt at?

[HamsterOfTheGod]

504 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html): "As of yet, every existing divination or communication spell you or I have cast has failed to locate Miss Starshine." That suggests Durkon and V have already tried every relevant spell at their disposal to no avail.

But then V should be able to confirm that there is a block on V. Look, say, V or Durkon cast Clairvoyance on the dock from which they left, or any other location in Azure City, they would get an error. Except in this case, they should not get an error because it is reasonable to suspect that the dock or 123 Main St, Azure City are still there. This would imply a divination block, one that blocks at least 7th level spells. Further if you extend your cliarvoyance from the center of the city out, say you clairvoy "1 mile down the road we traveled to Azure City", then you would get an idea of the extent and power of the effect. V might then decide to mount a rescue mission or he might agree with Durkon that it is best to let the search for Haley wait while they attend to other things. Or V might be able to explain to Durkon, "See there's this huge and powerful divination block. If you could user planar ally we could send a powerful, intelligent scout directly to the city." Once V uses magic to confirm he/she is up against the cloister MORE magical possibilities open up.



V has also mentioned looking for Belkar or Roy with Enhanced Scrying, and Hinjo has said scrying has failed to show anything in Azure City.

Where? In 505, they only specifically mention scrying for Roy and Haley. Roy presumably to see if he's been brought back from the dead.



V knows there's something blocking scrying. The problem is that V doesn't realize it's epic-level, and won't be defeated just by gaining a level or two.

Then wouldn't V agree with Durkon to go search for Girard's gate. V seems to imply that in the 3 months of fighting off trolls and ninja's he has not gained any major xp. Rather, he has burned a lot of loot.



Anyway, here's one potential solution:
The 8th-level Discern Location can find objects as well as people, and objects aren't specifically targeted by Cloister. It might well fail for objects inside the Cloister, but once they're outside they should be fair game. Any object Durkon or V has touched that they can be reasonably sure is still in Haley's possession (say, her armour (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)) would tell them where she is.
Once Haley is outside the cloister it stands to reason that any divination would find her and that V is constantly trying divinations just in case such an event were to happen. That is, if the plot moves along faster now after 596, then this small hole goes away.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Well, wasn't that what the Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html)spell was an attempt at?

Yes. I already mentioned several posts ago that V was trying to get around a possible divination block by using a spell which we can presume is a compulsion (since Animal Messenger is a compulsion) which forces an animal to use normal means of travel. And it would have worked if Belkar had not shot the messenger.

But even core D&D offers so many options, that as time passes, V's inability to magical come to a logical conclusion and for the plot to move on wears thin.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

We know the area is several miles wide, and that it has a lasting effect. V has clearly been attempting to scry on anyone in the city, he/she can't, because EVERYONE in the city is blocked. V knows something is blocking the scrying.

No. V thinks this is one possibility. More importantly, V has bnot figured out the full extent of this effect. Imagine that you could not clairvoy any existing LOCATION near and around Azure City for miles. This would give you the extent and nature of the divination block we are dealing with. The logical conclusion, the one we as readers know to be the case, for V to make if he systematically approached the problem like an intelligent, high level wizard would is that further divination is unlikely to work.



You do not seem to understand how LARGE a circle of several miles in diameter is. There is no way to effectively search it while it's crawling with hobgoblin patrols. The risk of being attacked and captured or killed is not worth the tiny chance that they might run into Haley, who is already in another city anyways.

If V decided on a scouting/rescue mission, who says the first mission must succeed altogether or fail altogether? Shadow Walk near enough, a few miles away and gather intel. Is it dangerous? Sure. Is it doing something more constructive? Yes. Is a rescue operation the only option? No.



I don't see why V insisting on pinpointing Haley's location, which could be anywhere from Azure City to Cliffport to Dorukon's Dungeon by now, before launching a rescue mission makes V a bad wizard. It's just common sense, given that they have no idea WHERE Haley is located. For all they know, she could have left in any direction four months ago, and could be at the next gate waiting for them by now.
I'm not saying V has to launch a rescue mission although a scouting mission to find out just what the hell is going on at Azure City seems to me like a good idea.

My point, I'll repeat again, is that V has not done enough, within the rules, through the magical means available to him/her, to confirm the extent and nature of the problem that they're dealing with, namely the cloister. Once that is done, V could use other magical means to solve the problem. Yes, V attempted a compulsion spell, Greater Animal Messenger, to get around any possible divination block. But given the myriad options available to even a sub-optimized wizard like V, V should not just be repeatedly biting on the same piece of granite.

[Yendor]

Where? In 505, they only specifically mention scrying for Roy and Haley. Roy presumably to see if he's been brought back from the dead.

508: "I need to use my new scrying spell to look for the halfling, as well as Sir Greenhilt." and 502: "Your own spellcasters have failed to contact [Haley], despite trying dozens of times. And scrying has failed to show anything that's going on in Azure City.


Once Haley is outside the cloister it stands to reason that any divination would find her and that V is constantly trying divinations just in case such an event were to happen. That is, if the plot moves along faster now after 596, then this small hole goes away.

Nope. See 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) again. Haley was targeted by the Cloister and is under its effects until it runs out. If it has run out, and she hasn't been contacted by Durkon or V, then that's a plot hole, because there's been no indication they've given up looking.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Well, when they last saw Azure City it was pretty much completely overrun with all the high level troops dead or dead (with a few escaping). I'd think it would be a sure bet that the enemy forces, if not Xykon himself, would probably still be there.


That should be easy enough to confirm with a simple clairvoyance spell. Oh wait, it can't. Clairvoayance won't work. Anywhere. I wonder why?



I don't really see the point - when Haley was still in Azure City as V assumed, and all her spells were being blocked (which V is fully aware is happening, as she states in strip 504) what would be the use of wasting valuable casting time/ingredients/spell slots to try divining something else just to confirm the effect blocking her is universal all over the City?

What would be the point in spending time and money developing V's Enhanced Scrying? What has V done over 3 months if not repeatedly try one divination after another? Why can't V put the puzzle togther and figure out the nature of the problem. Note I'm not saying why doesn't V not simply let it go. No. I understand V's obsession. I don't get V's 14th level, 18 intelligence incompetence.



Her plan is a bit stubborn, but there was some logic to "perhaps if I come up with a new, more powerful spell the effect blocking my other spells won't be able to stop it".

Except we, the readers, know it won't work.



Of course the point became redundant when Haley left Azure since nothing should be stopping V's spells now. Of course V can't know that the simplest divination spells he has access to will now work.

The plot point is that from 531 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Celia says it should take baout 5 weeks for Haley, Celia and Belakr to be rid off the effect of the cloiseter which follows them even after they've left the area. Plus the three are now stuck in Greysky City. It's hard to tell how much time has passed between 531 and 596 so it's hard to tell when the plot will move to resolved the party split.



Well, V is rational. She knows O'Chul was last in the throne room, home of things like Xykon and then a massive castle levelling explosion. Miko was last seen unbalanced and depowered in a jail cell, not to far from the afore mentioned explosion. Belkar is a difficult to control, psychotic halfling with poor hiding/life preservation skills who would be unable to defend himself from living opponents in the city plus he is handicapped by the whole "Roy's body" thing. Haley, however, is a reasonably high level rogue. Compared to the others listed she is a character made for surviving this kind of thing and thriving in such a hostile urban environment.

If V was looking to focus his efforts on the one person who still had a very good chance of being alive then Haley is the only logical choice.

3 months! 3 months! V can't spend one spell looking for something other than Haley in 3 months? V can't figure out that all divination and communications to all persons and locations in and near Azure City are blocked for miles? This is what I object to.



Now depending on how complete the picture V has of the blocking spell she might know it covers all of Azure city. If she had that kind of idea then she'd know it wouldn't really be possible to do much on the ground there, because the area is huge - one or two people in an entire occupied city? So wanting to really find them magically seems very V, and not totally off.
If V had any real idea as to the size of the area, he/she would no it was epic in scale.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

508: "I need to use my new scrying spell to look for the halfling, as well as Sir Greenhilt." and 502: "Your own spellcasters have failed to contact [Haley], despite trying dozens of times. And scrying has failed to show anything that's going on in Azure City.

OK I stand corrected. Thanks for 508 and 502. But then it begs the question, why doesn't V realize the full nature of the problem? Or Durkon for that matter? Planar Ally would be a logical choice for a scout, no? It does seem that things will come to a head after 596, so hopefully this little hole is moot once the party gets back to saving the world.



Nope. See 532 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) again. Haley was targeted by the Cloister and is under its effects until it runs out. If it has run out, and she hasn't been contacted by Durkon or V, then that's a plot hole, because there's been no indication they've given up looking.
Yeah I mispoke there. I as aware of Celia's note on 532. I posted that in my previous post but thanks for pointing that out.

[Mike62]

Yes. I already mentioned several posts ago that V was trying to get around a possible divination block by using a spell which we can presume is a compulsion (since Animal Messenger is a compulsion) which forces an animal to use normal means of travel. And it would have worked if Belkar had not shot the messenger.

But even core D&D offers so many options, that as time passes, V's inability to magical come to a logical conclusion and for the plot to move on wears thin.


Belkar didnt shoot the messenger, Haley did. Belkar only cooked them afterwards.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Belkar didnt shoot the messenger, Haley did. Belkar only cooked them afterwards.

Woops on that too. Thanks for the correction.

[Yendor]

OK I stand corrected. Thanks for 508 and 502. But then it begs the question, why doesn't V realize the full nature of the problem? Or Durkon for that matter? Planar Ally would be a logical choice for a scout, no? It does seem that things will come to a head after 596, so hopefully this little hole is moot once the party gets back to saving the world.

V seems to be arrogant enough to think that it will take just a little more effort to get past the blocking effect. Frankly, I don't know what the hell Durkon's thinking. He doesn't seem to have any idea what to do, much less communicate it to V.

[Linkavitch]

Here's a better question: how does V keep casting spells without ever trancing?

Well, for one thing, the past twenty or so comics have all been in one night.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

V seems to be arrogant enough to think that it will take just a little more effort to get past the blocking effect. Frankly, I don't know what the hell Durkon's thinking. He doesn't seem to have any idea what to do, much less communicate it to V.

That's the low charisma thing for Durkon like when he was unable to explain to Roy why he wouldn't resist Miko's arrest.