Character Development vs. Character Derailment

[TigerHunter]

This (#596) is the first strip in the entire run of OotS that I've actively disliked.

The first flaw occurs in panel 2. Elan goes from "I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU JUST DID THAT!" to "Oh, well, sure, I guess it's ok..." within the space of a few seconds. Putting aside the fact that it's Elan, whose policy on killing defenseless foes is well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html)-established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html), this is extremely unusual behavior for any human. Jokes about teenagers and pregnant women aside, such drastic mood swings don't really happen, and when confronted with something that so blatantly violates their moral code, people need more than a few seconds to rationalize it.

And as I touched on earlier, it's Elan. He's the most Good person in the strip, and V just murdered a defenseless man. He should remain outraged, and take even longer than normal to rationalize V's actions, if he can rationalize them at all.

Then there's the fact that Elan's opinion almost completely reverses itself by the end of the strip, meaning he goes from "Why on Earth did you do that!" to "I guess it's OK..." and back to "That's completely and utterly wrong!" in less than a minute. And his manner of expressing his second mood swing in as many seconds is completely out-of-character. It's as if Rich decided to completely change Elan's personality merely for the sake of a throwaway gag (though admittedly a funny one), and had V point this out under the delusion that poor writing becomes acceptable so long as it's lampshaded (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging).

And no, I'm not merely clinging to the status quo (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod) and wanting Elan to remain the Spoony Bard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpoonyBard) and never get any character development. I'm simply saying that changing Elan so drastically within such a short span of time isn't Character Development (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDevelopment)--it's Character Derailment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment).

[Silverlocke980]

I would like to put out one argument you haven't thought of- it's a bit of a "justification", perhaps, but I think it's one to remember.

Elan is currently undergoing incredible emotional distress from having Therkla die in his arms in a most horrific manner. He would initially be shocked at Kubota's death, but, at the moment, it satisfies something deep within him that needed Kubota to die. He'll probably have many more issues with what V did later, when he's settled back into his normal self, but for now, Kubota's death heals him more than it bothers him.

And as with all things- give it time. Derailment is not one event but a series of them. And I, personally, trust Rich Burlew. :)

[Stupendous_Man]

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax.'

Lalalalala

[TigerHunter]

Elan is currently undergoing incredible emotional distress from having Therkla die in his arms in a most horrific manner. He would initially be shocked at Kubota's death, but, at the moment, it satisfies something deep within him that needed Kubota to die. He'll probably have many more issues with what V did later, when he's settled back into his normal self, but for now, Kubota's death heals him more than it bothers him.
That still doesn't bring up the problem of his drastic mood swings. This sort of behavior would be perfectly normal over a slightly longer time frame, but it simply occurs too rapidly to maintain willing suspension of disbelief.

And why is he so calm if he's going through such emotional distress? Elan isn't exactly been good at hiding his thoughts and feelings.


I, personally, trust Rich Burlew. :)
As do I. As I pointed out, he's never failed me before.

I suppose we'll see.


If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax.'

Lalalalala
Way to completely and totally miss the point.

[JaxGaret]

The first flaw occurs in panel 2. Elan goes from "I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU JUST DID THAT!" to "Oh, well, sure, I guess it's ok..." within the space of a few seconds. Putting aside the fact that it's Elan, whose policy on killing defenseless foes is well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html)-established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html), this is extremely unusual behavior for any human.

I wouldn't say that it is unusual behavior. Do you have any evidence for that claim?


Jokes about teenagers and pregnant women aside, such drastic mood swings don't really happen, and when confronted with something that so blatantly violates their moral code, people need more than a few seconds to rationalize it.

Ah, but perhaps V's action didn't so blatantly violate Elan's moral code. After all, Kubota was Evil, was planning on committing further Evil acts, and generally being an Evil, Evil bastard, ruining many a Good person's life.


And as I touched on earlier, it's Elan. He's the most Good person in the strip, and V just murdered a defenseless man. He should remain outraged, and take even longer than normal to rationalize V's actions, if he can rationalize them at all.

V killed an Evil person, and Kubota was hardly defenseless, merely tied up. Kubota was still wearing magical protections, still has a Devil friend around, and still is a Noble, which is itself a protection, albeit not a physical one.


Then there's the fact that Elan's opinion almost completely reverses itself by the end of the strip, meaning he goes from "Why on Earth did you do that!" to "I guess it's OK..." and back to "That's completely and utterly wrong!" in less than a minute. And his manner of expressing his second mood swing in as many seconds is completely out-of-character. It's as if Rich decided to completely change Elan's personality merely for the sake of a throwaway gag (though admittedly a funny one), and had V point this out under the delusion that poor writing becomes acceptable so long as it's lampshaded (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging).

Again, I don't see how Elan's reactions are impossible to understand. I think his reactions are entirely within character and furthermore pretty much epitomize his alignment.

[Stupendous_Man]

Feel free to return to raging over a made up character in a work of fiction then.

[Lamech]

Elan looks up to V a good deal that probably goes some way to rationalizing it. He wasn't okay with it; he rationalized it, but when it turned out their was no rationalization, he got ticked. He sounded surprised, he just watched someone get killed, but I don't think he was horrified. I blame the inablity of text to transmit tone of voice, linguists really need to fix that.

Also don't forget that Elan seemed to struggle with not stabbing Kubota.

[TigerHunter]

I wouldn't say that it is unusual behavior. Do you have any evidence for that claim?
Yes--common sense. Do people really go from stark raving mad to perfectly calm within seconds for no discernible reason?


Ah, but perhaps V's action didn't so blatantly violate Elan's moral code. After all, Kubota was Evil, was planning on committing further Evil acts, and generally being an Evil, Evil bastard, ruining many a Good person's life.
Did you ignore the links I provided? The most recent of which occurred maybe five minutes previous? Elan refused to kill Kubota himself because it was wrong, and the fact that he really, really wanted to didn't change that.


V killed an Evil person, and Kubota was hardly defenseless, merely tied up. Kubota was still wearing magical protections, still has a Devil friend around, and still is a Noble, which is itself a protection, albeit not a physical one.
Whether or not V's actions were morally right is a separate thread (probably multiple separate threads).


Again, I don't see how Elan's reactions are impossible to understand. I think his reactions are entirely within character and furthermore pretty much epitomize his alignment.
So a person with staunch objections to killing prisoners being okay with killing prisoners is completely in-character?

[JaxGaret]

Who's raging?

[JaxGaret]

Yes--common sense. People really go from stark raving mad to perfectly calm within a second for no discernible reason?

Elan was stark raving mad? I must have missed it. He seemed to be shocked, for one panel. That hardly constitutes stark raving madness.



Did you ignore the links I provided? The most recent of which occurred maybe five minutes previous? Elan refused to kill Kubota himself because it was wrong, and the fact that he really, really wanted to didn't change that.

No, I did not. There is a difference between Elan being willing to kill Kubota himself, and accepting V's killing of Kubota. For Elan, he would not kill Kubota because of his personal code. However, he obviously can understand that killing Kubota, in the end, is probably the right thing.


Whether or not V's actions were morally right is a separate thread (probably multiple separate threads).

Agreed.


So a person with staunch objections to killing prisoners being okay with killing prisoners is completely in-character?

Elan has staunch objections to his personally killing prisoners, even heinously Evil ones. Perhaps he doesn't have staunch objections to others doing the dirty work for him.

Also, in the first example you gave, one of the prisoners happened to be Elan's brother.

[TigerHunter]

Elan was stark raving mad? I must have missed it. He seemed to be shocked, for one panel. That hardly constitutes stark raving madness.
True, I exaggerated a little too much. He's still far too quick to accept actions he views as immoral.


No, I did not. There is a difference between Elan being willing to kill Kubota himself, and accepting V's killing of Kubota. For Elan, he would not kill Kubota because of his personal code. However, he obviously can understand that killing Kubota, in the end, is probably the right thing.

Elan has staunch objections to his personally killing prisoners, even heinously Evil ones. Perhaps he doesn't have staunch objections to others doing the dirty work for him.
He sides against letting Belkar kill tied-up enemies not once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html), but twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html).


Also, in the first example you gave, one of the prisoners happened to be Elan's brother.
Whom Elan contemplated letting die instead of saving. Family obligations didn't play into it.

[JaxGaret]

True, I exaggerated a little too much. He's still far too quick to accept actions he views as immoral.

He doesn't seem to view V's action as immoral, from what he stated.



He sides against letting Belkar kill tied-up enemies not once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html), but twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html).

The first example I already covered. In the second example, Elan doesn't even say anything about Belkar's suggestion, so there's no evidence to be had there either.

Also, Elan has matured since then, which may have contributed to a change in personal philosophy.


Whom Elan contemplated letting die instead of saving. Family obligations didn't play into it.

Which strip is that in?

[TigerHunter]

He doesn't seem to view them as immoral, from what he stated.
Exactly the problem.


The first example I already covered. In the second example, Elan doesn't even say anything about Belkar's suggestion, so there's no evidence to be had there either.
You're right, I shouldn't have brought it up.


Which strip is that in?
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

[Kaihaku]

And as with all things- give it time. Derailment is not one event but a series of them. And I, personally, trust Rich Burlew. :)

Yeah, definitely.

I also agree with the Elan is under a lot of stress and it makes sense that he, being good, would freak out, calm down saying I can trust my ally, then freak out again when he realizes...wait...what?

[JaxGaret]

Exactly the problem.

I don't see it as a problem.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0068.html

If anything, that reinforces my point, in that Elan is unwilling to do the killing himself, but contemplates it and perhaps sees it as the right thing to do, but simply cannot bring himself to do it on his own.

[TigerHunter]

I don't see it as a problem.
That would be why we're on opposite sides of the issue.


If anything, that reinforces my point, in that Elan is unwilling to do the killing himself, but contemplates it and perhaps sees it as the right thing to do, but simply cannot bring himself to do it on his own.
Only when viewed out of context, since Elan's "No! No killing!" a few strips later makes it pretty clear that that's not the case at all. (Which brings this tangent full circle, since that's the strip I was referencing in the first place.)

It's been fun, but I really need to get to bed. Night.

[basilisk 89]

Seems to me like he was okay with it when he thought V had killed Kubota for being an evil bastard, but once V said that (s)he had only taken the noble's life because it would make life easier and didn't even know who he was, Elan got mad. Elan's anger seems to be focused on the reasons V killed Kubota, and not the fact that V killed Kubota. See how he starts getting confused and then annoyed and then angry as V explains his/her reasoning?

"You executed him just because I happened to have him tied up??"

If V had done it because Kubota was evil or for a reason that wasn't as cold as "He had a mustache and the potential to delay us," Elan wouldn't be nearly as upset.

[SPoD]

OK, here's the thing: Elan does not object to the fact that Kubota is dead, he objects to the fact that V killed Kubota for no reason. Elan HAD a reason, and he still did not kill Kubota. But Elan DID want Kubota dead at that point, otherwise he wouldn't have been torn about letting him surrender.

Panel One is simply an expression of shock.

Panel Two and Three translate to: "Well, Kubota is dead. I don't have that much of a problem with that, even if I wasn't willing to do the deed myself. There was certainly an argument to be made that he 'needed killing' due to the threat he presents. I may not have wanted to kill him, but I am willing to agree to disagree on this point with my good friend, Vaarsuvius, whose judgment I have always trusted in the past." The point being that he disagreed with V's methods, but assumed (incorrectly) that V and him were in agreement on underlying morality (i.e. he couldn't be allowed to run free). Elan is willing to cut his friend slack on doing something bad for a good reason, just as he does with Belkar (or even Haley) sometimes.

Panel Four to the end are the growing realization that Vaarsuvius had no reason to kill Kubota at all, or at least no reason that Elan finds justifiable. That they do not share an underlying morality, so that it does not matter how much Kubota "needed killing," because that need is NOT why he was killed.

As far as the speed at which he switches between Panels One and Two...well, it's a comic strip. One that was already packed to the limit with dialogue. Another few panels of Elan switching from Panel One to Panel Two wouldn't have added that much to the comic, and would have taken away from what I presume to be the real point: That V killed someone for pure convenience.

[Charles Phipps]

The context is actually pretty clear. First of all, Elan is perfectly intent on killing Kubota in combat. He's killed the Ninjas before plus god knows how many Mooks until this point. Elan has no moral objection to killing people as a rule. This is just wrong if you're claiming otherwise.

Next, there's a reminder that Kubota just murdered Elan's Tiffa (or Aerith if you chose Tiffa or Yuffie because you're not able to appreciate awesome Flower Girls).

Elan is willing to travel with BELKAR, which means that he has a high tolerance for evil actions against evil people. It's only when he discovers that V wasn't executing an ENORMOUSLY DANGEROUS CRIMINAL but just some random guy he's bad.

Batman would be angry if someone killed the Joker. However, when Nightwing revealed that he let Blockbuster die, Batman is forgiving. Because there's a difference between the two.

Elan is aware that Kubota is evil and had it coming.

[JaxGaret]

V killed someone for pure convenience.

V did logically conclude, and rightly, that Kubota was Evil, and a threat.

Had V concluded that Kubota was Good or Neutral, I doubt V would have been willing to dust them.

[Charles Phipps]

V did logically conclude, and rightly, that Kubota was Evil, and a threat.

Actually, that's the point of the strip.

:vaarsuvius: killed the person in the rope because of illogical reasons. If Elan happened to be into certain kinky stuff or just was showing some random guy how to use a lasso then V would have killed him anyway.

[AceOfFools]

Elan wanted to kill Kubota himself.

That's why he was so pissed when he surrendered. Elan realized that as much as he wanted to, it went against everything he was to kill Pinky, and decided it wasn't worth it.

So he expressed his considerable anger via substantially less lethal fist-to face.

Then V comes along and gives him exactly what he wants, but cannot take for himself.

His initial reaction to this is shock.

V just killed a helpless prisoner in cold blood. Not the sort of thing Elan would expect his friend to do, as it does go against everything he believes in.

But it was what he wanted. Part of what "feels weird" is the fact that he is far more accepting than he feels he should be.

Then V goes and reveals that the elf wasn't even aware of who was killed, they just did it because Elan happened to have Kubota tied up. Which means V would have done the same to any one (villain or not even) that happened to surrender.

Which Elan is not okay with. V takes away Elan's ability to justify (via "Kubota deserved it") his friend's action to himself, and so he reacts as he would have had he never had any justification.

Which is to say, he's very upset with V.

All of which seemed reasonable to me.

[JaxGaret]

Only when viewed out of context, since Elan's "No! No killing!" a few strips later makes it pretty clear that that's not the case at all. (Which brings this tangent full circle, since that's the strip I was referencing in the first place.)

Except that the Good incarnate was attempting to convince Elan to commit action to save Nale, whereas the Evil incarnate was attempting to convince Elan to simply do nothing. If Nale were not Elan's brother, the Evil incarnate may have won out the argument - note one of the things the Good incarnate stated: "He is still your brother, and to kill him, even through inaction, would be wrong."


It's been fun, but I really need to get to bed. Night.

Agreed. Goodnight! :smallsmile:

[SPoD]

V did logically conclude, and rightly, that Kubota was Evil, and a threat.

I'm not trying to justify V's actions or not. I'm saying what I think the purpose of this strip in the overall story is: To illustrate V's frame of mind, and that it was not the same as Elan's.

[JaxGaret]

I'm not trying to justify V's actions or not. I'm saying what I think the purpose of this strip in the overall story is: To illustrate V's frame of mind, and that it was not the same as Elan's.

Oh, I know, and I wasn't disagreeing with anything else you said.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

And as I touched on earlier, it's Elan. He's the most Good person in the strip

I would say Elan is the most naive of the OotS members. It's debatable, as almost everything esle is, as to who is the most Good. I would argue it is Durkon because he often acts as the conscience of the party.

To your main point, Elan's reactions in 596 seem to be very Elan, naive acceptance followed by the slow dawning that something is not right.

Durkon on the other hand may have a completely different reaction. It would not be out of character for Durkon to break with V over this matter but then again in 591 Durkon, very ironically, stated that he was starting to get worried about V.

[JaxGaret]

Actually, that's the point of the strip.

:vaarsuvius: killed the person in the rope because of illogical reasons. If Elan happened to be into certain kinky stuff or just was showing some random guy how to use a lasso then V would have killed him anyway.

No, you forget that V heard part of the conversation between Elan and Kubota. He knew that it was not a lasso demonstration, nor kinky stuff.

[Charles Phipps]

I would say Elan is the most naive of the OotS members. It's debatable, as almost everything esle is, as to who is the most Good. I would argue it is Durkon because he often acts as the conscience of the party.

Naivity is a very awkward concept in Order of the Stick. Mostly because, Elan is Genre Savvy. Because of this, essentially, Elan is actually the least naive character in the strip. Because he's aware they're protagonists in a storyline, all of Roy's concerns just make him look like he's hopelessly naive that the world will work to logical progressions.

It's a bit like saying that Ford Prefect is Naive and Arthur Dent the intelligent one.


No, you forget that V heard part of the conversation between Elan and Kubota. He knew that it was not a lasso demonstration, nor kinky stuff.

And V's entire response is based on the fact he didn't care about the circumstances whatsoever.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Elan has staunch objections to his personally killing prisoners, even heinously Evil ones.

Also, in the first example you gave, one of the prisoners happened to be Elan's brother.

Yes...but the second time Nale was captured and Elan learned that mercy allowed him to slaughter many a Cliffporter, he decided to spare Nale's life not because of moral objections, but only because he was somehow certain that Nale had a cleric on standby with True Resurrection prepared.

[Kaytara]

I didn't see Elan's reactions as unrealistic. He's initially shocked that someone can just Shoot the Dog like that, but doesn't really see it as wrong, because Kubota was evil and had it coming. He goes back to being appalled when he learns WHY Vaarsuvius did that - more specifically, he's appalled that Vaarsuvius would reason like that.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Naivity is a very awkward concept in Order of the Stick. Mostly because, Elan is Genre Savvy. Because of this, essentially, Elan is actually the least naive character in the strip. Because he's aware they're protagonists in a storyline, all of Roy's concerns just make him look like he's hopelessly naive that the world will work to logical progressions.

It's a bit like saying that Ford Prefect is Naive and Arthur Dent the intelligent one.

I guess I'm saying Elan is a kind of idiot savant. He knows what heros are supposed to do but that is naive in an action comic.

For ex, he's supposed to have the "hero's choice" but he gets "to be the girl". He knows a 1-in-a-million chance means Certain Doom but he thought he could meet Therkla alone without being followed and he thought Therkla would turn to his side, not once but twice, despite her being a victim of Unrequited Love.

So either Elan's genre savvy is inspired or has comic genius timing smarts.

[JaxGaret]

And V's entire response is based on the fact he didn't care about the circumstances whatsoever.


No, V clearly stated that Kubota, due to his logical conclusions, was a "main villain of the encounter", which means that he is a valid target of V's strongest attack spells.

[Charles Phipps]

No, V clearly stated that Kubota, due to his logical conclusions, was a "main villain of the encounter", which means that he is a valid target of V's strongest attack spells.

When Elan thinks that's an insane reaction, it's not a good sign.

[SPoD]

When Elan thinks that's an insane reaction, it's not a good sign.

Exactly; everyone (including Elan himself) knows that Elan gets his Genre Savvy predictions wrong just as often as he gets them right. Basing the decision to kill on Elan's conclusions is not logically sound.

It's roughly the same as deciding to shoot someone because Wikipedia told you something bad about the person.

[JaxGaret]

When Elan thinks that's an insane reaction, it's not a good sign.

If you look at Elan's reaction after the second shock, you'll see that he doesn't seem all that put off by V. Certainly annoyed, and concerned, but he doesn't seem frightened by V.

[Warren Dew]

Putting aside the fact that it's Elan, whose policy on killing defenseless foes is well (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html)-established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html)

Do you think he thinks it's okay, as in your second link, or not-okay, as in your first link?

Kubota is defenseless even before he surrenders - the author made a point of specifying that he had no weapons and no more poison - yet Elan was ready to run him through.

I think 596 is a great strip, mostly because every single panel is hilarious, but also because of how it's developing Elan's attitude towards good and evil. There are plenty of characters who are innocent because of naivete, but one who is innocent despite, or because of, sophisticated moral understanding would be pretty cool.

[Charles Phipps]

If you look at Elan's reaction after the second shock, you'll see that he doesn't seem all that put off by V. Certainly annoyed, and concerned, but he doesn't seem frightened by V.

I don't think :elan: believes :vaarsuvius: is evil. I do think that he believes the man's choice of action was severely irresponsible (again, when :elan: thinks you're being irresponsible...). He's not sorry Lord Kubota is dead or that the man didn't get his trial (he suspects that the man was right and would have been happy to kill him in a fair fight).

Instead, I believe he's worried about his friend jumping off the slippery slope of evil and possibly going insane from his obsession with achieving results on his spell.

[arkwei]

You know, there might be another reason that Elan seems shocked in the first panel. (I'm not trying to argue he isn't, though.)

Someone behind him just shot a high-powered magic beam to the guy in front of Elan. Within moments, the perfectly good human in front of him turns skeleton, then turns to dust.

1. Elan might not be aware of V, and got scared a little bit when V just shot Kobato [sic].
2. The visual image isn't pleasing, either. It could make Elan feel uneasy.
3. Please note, Elan had a particularly childish behavior in 583 panel one. When Therkla was throwing a shuriken in his direction, he got scared, closed his eyes and yelled.

So, Elan's shocked expression might be that he was frightened a bit. Thus the "fast mood swinging" theory is less likely to be true.

[busterswd]

Something you're forgetting, OP, is Elan attempting to stab Kubota himself as he was making his getaway. Had Kubota not been geared to the teeth, that wouldn't exactly have tickled.

[Prowl]

Or, it just might be a comic and not an attempt at realist literature.

If you're complaining about a lack of realism in a comic where the characters estimate the length of a trial as a number of strips, perhaps you just don't get the joke.

[Charles Phipps]

Or, it just might be a comic and not an attempt at realist literature.

If you're complaining about a lack of realism in a comic where the characters estimate the length of a trial as a number of strips, perhaps you just don't get the joke.

Being a children's show does not need to make it a childish show.
-Tom Baker, paraphrased.

[Prowl]

Being a children's show does not need to make it a childish show.
-Tom Baker, paraphrased.

An extraordinary comic it may be, but all the wishing it were Shakespearean drama in the world will not make it so. It is fundamentally a comic intended for humor and entertainment, and losing sight of that leads to all sorts of nonsensical analysis as we see throughout this thread and many of the other threads spawned by the last two strips.

One would think that with all the genre savviness and lampshade hanging in this one strip alone that message might actually make it through, even to some of the thicker skulls in the audience. The characters involved need no more motivation to act as they do than to spare the readers 20 to 30 strips worth of humorless drudgery. With the kinds of complaints I have seen about these past two strips I almost think that the complainers actually want to be subjected to those hypothetical humorless strips.

[slayerx]

I don't see a problem with what Elan did...

Elan came within inches of Killing Kobuta himself. The only reason he stoppped was because Kobuta surrendered and reminded Elan than taking him in was the right thing to do... this ofcourse did not make Elan any less pissed about the situation and Elan had to fight himself just to settle for a punch... not to mention at that moment he was fighting himself he also likely felt that justice against Kobuta would be served and he would end up in Jail... this is then followed by the realization that Kobuta might actually get off the hook... Though Elan is still skepticle

And then we have V's action... Elan is at first shocked at what happened, he still felt Kobuta should face trail and pay, but after a brief *sigh* Elan realized that the trail was not a sure thing anymore... Here's the question you have to ask, If Elan knew that Kobuta only surendered because he knew he could get out jail time, would he have still sparred Kobuta's life? And this is why Elan was able to except V's actions, simply because he himself almmost did the same thing just a few minutes ago and is know thinking that it would have been better that way... but Elan "feels weird" about it as such he is not totally sure it was right...

However, his next "mood swing" kicks in when he hears the reason why V killed him... she did not kill him because he was a villain that was responsible for the deaths of many people and has attempted to rule through regicide, she killed him because he was a villain who was a bothersome inconvenience to them; for all V knew, Kobuta could have been guilty of nothing more of something like grand theft, or some other crime where capitol punishment was not strictly necessary or a good option... Elan found V's REASONS for his actions to be immoral... Killing Kobuta because of his actual crimes would have been killing him for the "right reasons", But V effectively killed kobuta for the "wrong reasons"... and thus Elan becomes angry with V because of his immoral actions

the way Elan sees it...
-Killing Kobuta because he was a murderous evil villian = moral in that its for the greater good
-Killing Kobuta simply because he was a very inconvenient villian = immoral

[FujinAkari]

Just my Two Cents...

It is a well-established physiological fact that people actually -do- go through rapid changes in behavior ("mood swings") during times of unusually high stress. There are actually people who are hired to be close to the President to ensure he does NOT act on the often irrational thoughts that would be his initial response to an extremely stressful situation.

[Charles Phipps]

An extraordinary comic it may be, but all the wishing it were Shakespearean drama in the world will not make it so. It is fundamentally a comic intended for humor and entertainment, and losing sight of that leads to all sorts of nonsensical analysis as we see throughout this thread and many of the other threads spawned by the last two strips.

One would think that with all the genre savviness and lampshade hanging in this one strip alone that message might actually make it through, even to some of the thicker skulls in the audience. The characters involved need no more motivation to act as they do than to spare the readers 20 to 30 strips worth of humorless drudgery. With the kinds of complaints I have seen about these past two strips I almost think that the complainers actually want to be subjected to those hypothetical humorless strips.

I point out that William Shakespeare was a writer of romantic comedies and action movie equivalents. The very idea that he would be analyzed 500 years later by people would come off as totally absurd to him. No, Order of the Stick is a parody strip of D&D-isms and Fantasy but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have more than gags nor that fans can't obsess over it.

It's certainly no sillier than attempting to ask what gender issues are raised by 12th Night. Something that, blatantly, has no subtext because it's a silly comedy.

[Ridureyu]

Yeah, I know. Vaarsuvius was totally evil for killing an innocent, defenseless, harmless man. Just like when Roy was horribly evil for insulting sweet, defenseless Miko, or when Haley was evil for criticizing kind, peaceful Belkar, or when umbrella radishes greenly.

[Impikmin]

Huh I agree with first AND second post soo much??:smallconfused:

[Impikmin]

Yeah, I know. Vaarsuvius was totally evil for killing an innocent, defenseless, harmless man. Just like when Roy was horribly evil for insulting sweet, defenseless Miko, or when Haley was evil for criticizing kind, peaceful Belkar, or when umbrella radishes greenly.

I have to agree with your other sarcasms, but umbrella just DESERVED to be radishes greenly!! I mean, come on, turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly! :furious:

[NENAD]

An extraordinary comic it may be, but all the wishing it were Shakespearean drama in the world will not make it so. It is fundamentally a comic intended for humor and entertainment, and losing sight of that leads to all sorts of nonsensical analysis as we see throughout this thread and many of the other threads spawned by the last two strips.

One would think that with all the genre savviness and lampshade hanging in this one strip alone that message might actually make it through, even to some of the thicker skulls in the audience. The characters involved need no more motivation to act as they do than to spare the readers 20 to 30 strips worth of humorless drudgery. With the kinds of complaints I have seen about these past two strips I almost think that the complainers actually want to be subjected to those hypothetical humorless strips.

Clearly I'm missing some of your logic here.

1) There are lampshade hangings, therefore
2) The comic has no deeper meanings.

The first statement does not suggest the other. There must be a third statement concerning the nature of lampshade hangings that you failed to mention which is necesarry to make the logic work. Further, this third statement must be either blatantly obvious (like statement 1 in the above logic) or supported by other statements until we reach a set of obviously factual statements supporting your current conclusion.

That was a bit of an over-analysis of the situation, but if what you say is true, it really shouldn't be hard at all, as it clearly took you all of twenty seconds to arrive at this conclusion.