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quillbreaker
2008-09-24, 10:56 PM
3 man group. Warlord [me], Wizard, Cleric. There is a Ranger and a Fighter, but they weren't at this session.

So, the adventuring party arrived in a new town in the DM's custom world. One of the particular attractions of this town was a gladiatorial arena. We needed a place to sit and plot, and it was cheap, so we bought seats and went in.

Bets started for the next match. It was a Dragonborn against a Gnome, and odds were set strongly against the Gnome, fifty to one. I placed a 10 gold piece bet (any one can get lucky) and we went in.

So we're plotting and the DM is narrating the start of the fight, describing the gnome as pathetic and weak, and the Dragonborn as a brawny monstrosity. The whole thing was a gory bit of comic relief, a la spattered gnome, for the jaded patrons of the arena.

I stop paying attention to the plotting and look down at the battle. The combat is engaged. I feel sorry for the gnome. "Commander's Strike."
DM: "What?"
"Commander's Strike. I yell advice down to the gnome. He gets a free attack."
"You're out of range."
"No range listed on the power, so I'm assuming Line of Sight, which I have."
"The arena has a ritual to prevent magical interference."
"Not magic. Martial. Martial Weapon. I use a halberd, so really, there's not anywhere for it to be other than my hand."
"Uh... ok. *rolls* The gnome hits."
"+4 damage from my intelligence mod. I do the same thing next round."



Commander’s Strike
Warlord Attack 1
With a shout, you command an ally to attack.
At-Will Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack against the target
Hit: Ally’s basic attack damage + your Intelligence modifier.


And, the gnome wins. I be a smart player and do not start scheming to break the arena in half... but once again, the "activating medium" for the Warlord, shouted commands, makes for a humorous and more than slightly odd in-game effect.

Douglas
2008-09-24, 11:00 PM
"You're out of range."
"No range listed on the power, so I'm assuming Line of Sight, which I have."
"The arena has a ritual to prevent magical interference."
Actually there is. Note the melee keyword in the power's description. The target of the "free" attack has to be within your melee reach.

Colmarr
2008-09-24, 11:02 PM
I hate to be the one to rain on parades, but Commader's Strike is a "Melee" power, which means it only works if the target (in this case the Dragonborn) is in melee range of you.

Nice story though :smallsmile:

EDIT: Damn these ninjas! They're everywhere :smallbiggrin:

The New Bruceski
2008-09-24, 11:22 PM
To be fair, that ability is THE current conflict du jour, due both to disagreeing fluff/crunch, and CusServ coming down solidly on the verbal side, while the FAQ supports melee range.

I see it as not just talking to someone, but actually interfering/pinning them and shouting "get him now!"

quillbreaker
2008-09-24, 11:25 PM
Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

Someone asked Customer Service and got an answer that agrees with my interpretation:



Subject
Commander's Strike question

Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 07/06/2008 02:00 PM
Brad,

Hello. You can grant the attack to an ally within your line of sight. You were reading it correctly.


I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

ghost_warlock
2008-09-24, 11:26 PM
By RAW this wouldn't might not work, but it's hilarious!

And, to be honest, I might have allowed it anyway for all the fun it could get the party into. Somewhere in that town, there's probably a mob boss who's very interested in how the gnome won against his prized dragonborn patsy. The people who run the arena are also probably interested in how this happened, too; as perhaps are the authorities as the local government probably draws income from the fights. The dragonborn (or his family if he died as a result of the fight) might be looking for revenge. The gnome may even be interesed in getting in touch with the PCs for help as the locals no doubt have him and a number of other gnomes enslaved for slaughter in just such fights.

Plot hooks galore.

FoE
2008-09-24, 11:26 PM
The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."

But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.

Funny story, in any case.

The New Bruceski
2008-09-24, 11:45 PM
I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

If you're playing it that way, then it works that way. No need to change if everyone's fine with it.

I've caused some strife in my group talking about items that come up that are odd or contradictory. I'm usually not saying they work one way or another, I just find it fascinating to look at how things interact. I'm the kind of guy who takes things apart, partially to see how they work, partially just to explore minutae.

BobVosh
2008-09-24, 11:55 PM
The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."

But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.

Funny story, in any case.

Actually lots of ways. "The gnome doesn't see himself as your ally."
"The gnome can't hear you"
"The gnome refuses to be commanded by you."
The guards recognize this kind of interference and come down to you. You have been slain. However, the gnome hits! +4 damage from int.

Also that is a good trope...for NPCs. For pcs it is terrible. You don't want to exceed WBL

DarknessLord
2008-09-25, 12:06 AM
As people have said by RAW it doesn't work, it's a melee weapon power, which means the target has to be within range of a melee weapon, I assume the customer service rep is right about the ally.

However, this is so darn funny, chances are I'd let it work, but then inform the player that if they keep trying it, someone's gonna catch on.

Still, I don't see extending the range of this power to line of sight to be too broken, after all, you are still giving up your attack for someone else...

pingcode20
2008-09-25, 12:20 AM
Actually lots of ways. "The gnome doesn't see himself as your ally."
"The gnome can't hear you"
"The gnome refuses to be commanded by you."
The guards recognize this kind of interference and come down to you. You have been slain. However, the gnome hits! +4 damage from int.

Of course, that's basically a block, improvisation wise, and it would discourage the players from trying to do anything else moderately reasonable. The whole point of Tabletop gaming is that you can do whatever you want, without worrying too much about the strict uses of abilities.

I, personally, prefer to think of situations in a more cinematic sense.

Look at it from the Gnome's perspective:

You're in an arena, fighting an impossible foe four times your height. You know you're dead, and you watch in dread as the monstrous dragonborn before you raises his sword to finish you off.

Suddenly, you hear a voice in the audience, calling out to you through the din. "He's open! Get him now!" You look at the lizard before you, and yes, yes there is an opening! You take the opportunity, and lunge at the dragonborn, his eyes widening with shock as the sword slides into his belly.

He throws you backwards, and roars with anger, but you can see it. Everyone can. He's wounded, and the seed of doubt is beginning to creep into his mind. He charges with rage, and you steel yourself for the blow. You got lucky that time, and it wouldn't last. Then, the voice again. Reflexively, you thrust your sword forwards, not daring to believe that you might actually survive. You open your eyes. The dragonborn's eyes are wide, and he staggers back, dropping his greatsword. The roar of the crowd is deafening, and slowly, your eyes see the cause. Sticking from the gladiator's chest is your sword, buried hilt deep and seeping dark blood.

You look around for the voice, but he is already gone.

---

Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

Gralamin
2008-09-25, 12:34 AM
Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

Someone asked Customer Service and got an answer that agrees with my interpretation:



I don't want to argue what should be the case (nor am I claiming customer service as a definitive source), but I will toss two things out there. First, we've been playing it as Line of Sight and I haven't thought it overpowered (I use Wolf Pack Tactics most of the time), although it is very broken in this situation. Second, if it gets house-ruled (or ruled, or whatever) as melee range, I will be shuffling it out next level. I use it to add extra melee force to a select part of the battle, and I'm not willing to run over there to do it.

Last time I checked, Ask Wizards was usually considered a place for official answers (As its usually answered by the actual developers or similar people), and they said it was melee (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080827). I don't think there is any more official ruling then that.

Its still a useful ability, since warlord's care more about hitting in most cases then raw damage, and when you can't do anything more useful, its a good secondary ability to let your striker hit again for more damage or similar.

quillbreaker
2008-09-25, 12:38 AM
The DM was dumb. He should have just said, "Sorry, the gnome can't hear your voice over the screams of the crowd."


The DM was surprised, happens to everybody. Besides, if the power can be canceled by loud noise, the entire Warlord class just got taken down by a loudspeaker feedback loop.



But then again, this seems like the kind of set-up where the gnome was going to win anyway, in a "surprise victory." That's how this Trope works: the hero bets on the "obvious weakling" and ends up raking in a ton of cash, usually because he/she observes something no one else does (like the underdog is a master swordsman). Your DM may have allowed your cunning ploy for that reason.


I doubt that was meant to happen, based only on the difficulty we had collecting on our bets. Between 2 people we won 1500 at fourth level (someone else had a 20 gold piece bet), which is enough for a useful magic item or two.



Funny story, in any case.


Thanks. Entertainment was what I was going for here. *grin*

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-25, 02:29 AM
1:30 odds? What kind of crazy bookies give odds like that anyway? It's a bet worth dropping a few gold on no matter how unlikely, because the return is so insanely good. Your DM can blame himself for that. 1:8 odds would be big enough to draw a bunch of long-shot bets. 1:4 or 2:5 would be more realistic, especially if the gnome was capable of winning with nothing more than some commander's strike help.

Colmarr
2008-09-25, 02:33 AM
As people have said by RAW it doesn't work, it's a melee weapon power, which means the target has to be within range of a melee weapon, I assume the customer service rep is right about the ally.

QFT.

The target has to be within melee distance (which does not necessarily mean adjacent). The ally can be wherever the hell he wants so long as he can somehow validly make a melee basic attack on the target from that position (eg. reach). :smallsmile:

leperkhaun
2008-09-25, 02:48 AM
I, personally, prefer to think of situations in a more cinematic sense.

Look at it from the Gnome's perspective:

You're in an arena, fighting an impossible foe four times your height. You know you're dead, and you watch in dread as the monstrous dragonborn before you raises his sword to finish you off.

Suddenly, you hear a voice in the audience, calling out to you through the din. "He's open! Get him now!" You look at the lizard before you, and yes, yes there is an opening! You take the opportunity, and lunge at the dragonborn, his eyes widening with shock as the sword slides into his belly.

He throws you backwards, and roars with anger, but you can see it. Everyone can. He's wounded, and the seed of doubt is beginning to creep into his mind. He charges with rage, and you steel yourself for the blow. You got lucky that time, and it wouldn't last. Then, the voice again. Reflexively, you thrust your sword forwards, not daring to believe that you might actually survive. You open your eyes. The dragonborn's eyes are wide, and he staggers back, dropping his greatsword. The roar of the crowd is deafening, and slowly, your eyes see the cause. Sticking from the gladiator's chest is your sword, buried hilt deep and seeping dark blood.

You look around for the voice, but he is already gone.

---

Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

This is exactly the reason that GMs should bend/break rules as needed, besides its not like this was a gamebreaking event....

Pegasos989
2008-09-25, 03:24 AM
Debating about the "Weapon" part aside...

Ofcourse it works.

Haven't anyone of you seen ANY boxing/arena/some similar matches?

Well... I haven't actually. But well.. In movies..

There is always the coach next to the ring shouting "Punch lower! Punch lower! Protect your face!!!"...

Well, that is exactly that power.

I don't see it all that humorous. That's how it should work.

BobVosh
2008-09-25, 03:30 AM
Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

I would allow it in my game, but the DM of this one obviously didn't want it. I find it hilarious.

Ikkitosen
2008-09-25, 04:35 AM
Top notch! I'd allow this, and I'd think "humbug" at my DM if he didn't :smallwink: Unless that dragonborn was central to the plot that is!

Charity
2008-09-25, 05:53 AM
To be honest, like was said above, the odds were far too long for a two horse race... and lets face it the bookie is going to be none too pleased (unless he cleaned up on bets on the favourite) and will no doubt be introducing the player to some of his knuckle dragging mates, so the winnings can be considered treasure for such an encounter, I don't see it as a big problem.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 06:04 AM
To be honest, like was said above, the odds were far too long for a two horse race... and lets face it the bookie is going to be none too pleased (unless he cleaned up on bets on the favourite) and will no doubt be introducing the player to some of his knuckle dragging mates, so the winnings can be considered treasure for such an encounter, I don't see it as a big problem.Actually, the bookie probably loved it. After all, 1-50 odds means there was no shot for the gnome. The odds were probably 9:10 or worse for the Dragonborn. For a bookie, odds that long means everyone was probably betting on the Dragonborn and he just wanted to make sure he didn't lose too much when the gnome got hammered. The bookie probably cleaned up.
Last time I checked, Ask Wizards was usually considered a place for official answers (As its usually answered by the actual developers or similar people), and they said it was melee (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080827). I don't think there is any more official ruling then that.FAQ/CustServ/Sage is NOT RAW. They are contradictory and often have ruled in ways that are obviously not following the RAW. Sage even admits his first desire is balanced rulings, not making rulings, you know, by the rules. There's a 20+ page thread over at Gleemax debating this, given that 2 Wizards sources have made 2 different declarations. Let's find something better to do with our time, please.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-25, 09:56 AM
Actually, the bookie probably loved it. After all, 1-50 odds means there was no shot for the gnome. The odds were probably 9:10 or worse for the Dragonborn. For a bookie, odds that long means everyone was probably betting on the Dragonborn and he just wanted to make sure he didn't lose too much when the gnome got hammered. The bookie robably cleaned up.

If everyone else was making similar small bets up to 20 or so, an individual bookie would have needed at least 75 people (quite a lot for one bookkeeper, especially if it's not centralized into one official betting parlor or syndicate) making bets to even cover the winnings.

And what were the odds in favor of the dragonborn there, anyway? 9:10? If the winner was so obvious that everyone would bet on the Dragonborn, bookies wouldn't have taken bets, because they'd have lost. They're the ones actually making money from the betting, after all.

Hzurr
2008-09-25, 10:51 AM
Well... I haven't actually. But well.. In movies..

There is always the coach next to the ring shouting "Punch lower! Punch lower! Protect your face!!!"...

Well, that is exactly that power.

I don't see it all that humorous. That's how it should work.


"You're a bum, Rocky!"

err... not exactly "inspiring" in the traditional sense, but I guess it works.

Tengu_temp
2008-09-25, 11:02 AM
I don't care if this is legal by RAW, or how much sense do these odds make - this example is awesome. Kudos for the player for using his powers in a smart way and making an otherwise (probably) background and relatively unimportant element of the session memorable.

EDIT: Ah, and the player is the OP. Right. Kudos to him, then.

Blackfang108
2008-09-25, 11:13 AM
"You're a bum, Rocky!"

err... not exactly "inspiring" in the traditional sense, but I guess it works.

My inspiring words come from R Lee Ermey (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337552/).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-25, 11:26 AM
Apparently if this is true or not is a issue that merits a 29 page thread. Ah, gleemax.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1052820

That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18) (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396), and still the stupid thread goes on.

FoE
2008-09-25, 11:47 AM
The DM was surprised, happens to everybody. Besides, if the power can be canceled by loud noise, the entire Warlord class just got taken down by a loudspeaker feedback loop.

There were exceptional circumstances here. The Warlord was shouting encouragement to a complete stranger from a long distance away (an arena seat to the arena floor) amongst hundreds of other voices likely chanting "KILL! KILL! KILL! KILL!"

Of course, I'm guessing this was a proper coliseum and not a dozen people gathered around a pit, like in Conan the Barbarian.

Morty
2008-09-25, 11:49 AM
That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18) (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396), and still the stupid thread goes on.

When was the last time things like "there being a definite answer to the question" stopped RPG players from discussing something obsessively?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 12:12 PM
That thread is silly. WotC actually answered this weeks ago (#18) (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396), and still the stupid thread goes on.Several issues. First, Custserv is not RAW! They seem to get pleasure out of making confusing, contradictory, and outright wrong answers at times. Second, WotC has actually answered this twice, ruling opposite ways each time. Third, this way is cooler anyhow, and more balanced, so even if it is satisfactorily resolved, it may still become a common houserule.

Mando Knight
2008-09-25, 12:17 PM
Third, this way is cooler anyhow, and more balanced, so even if it is satisfactorily resolved, it may still become a common houserule.

1st Commandment of Playing 4E Correctly: Thou Shalt Invoke The Rule Of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) Wherever It Shall Cause Awesome. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrowningMomentOfAwesome)

DM Raven
2008-09-25, 12:20 PM
Technically this wouldn't work because of the whole melee thing...and the fact that the target has to be an ally, not a neutral party.

But, it does make for a good story and opportunity for a plot hook via the gnome who survives the battle. The only problem is consistency...if you're going to allow this to happen once then you are telling your players they can use the power like this any time...which is treading dangerous waters.

Seckro
2008-09-25, 12:28 PM
I had a friend of mine who was playing an Obese fighter crit fail on hiding behind a chair. xD

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-25, 12:29 PM
Technically this wouldn't work because of the whole melee thing...and the fact that the target has to be an ally, not a neutral party.Seriously, are my posts invisible?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-09-25, 12:33 PM
Seriously, are my posts invisible?

Who said that? :smallconfused:

Townopolis
2008-09-25, 12:57 PM
Bottom Line: it was awesome, and you should have inspiring word'd him too.

"Now hit him below the knee! Yeah, that's it. Go get him, gnome!"

MartinHarper
2008-09-25, 05:52 PM
Now tell me why that shouldn't be allowed in a high fantasy world like DnD?

It should, but I'd tend to mechanic it via use of Inspiring Word and "Actions the Rules don't Cover", rather than removing the requirements of Commander's Strike.

greenknight
2008-09-25, 06:11 PM
If you got away with it, good for you. But next time you try this, expect your DM to wear a big grin as he describes 100 Warlords encouraging the opponent.

Colmarr
2008-09-25, 07:59 PM
Second, WotC has actually answered this twice, ruling opposite ways each time.

Assuming that the FAQ is one of those times, what is the other?

If you're referring to the custserv quote already provided above, it's not an opposite ruling. It is in fact entirely consistent with both the FAQ and the RAW.

As for whether this should have been allowed to worked, my answer is no. Allowing the power to work in this way creates mechanics whereby to maintain verissimilitude every gladiator match has to either:

1. take place in a magical arena (that stops powers used in the crowd from affecting the combatants); or

2. explicitly allow each gladiator to hire as many warlords as they can afford to "encourage" them.

Neither works for me.

pingcode20
2008-09-25, 08:46 PM
Actually, I think it sparks two different changes, both for the better.

1. Side Plot involving Gnome.
Look at it this way. You've just, completely out of the blue, saved the poor gnome's life in a gladiatorial fight. The Gnome is most certainly going to want to see you, and it could be taken any number of places - perhaps you free the gnome from gladiatorial life to become an adventurer like you, perhaps you help him pursue a dream he's always had... There's any number of threads that could be spun off from this one event, now that the Gnome's story is involved.

2. Gladiatorial Coaches
While it most certainly wouldn't be immediate, people would obviously begin to catch on that there's no ward that can stop people from shouting advice from the spectator stands - well, not without silencing the arena, and that would cause more problems that it would solve.

Instead, other gladiators would catch on first, and then they would begin hiring Warlords to sit in the front row and call out advice, giving them a noticeable advantage over their competitors - just like the fight between the gnome and the dragonborn. Then it would get to the point of silliness, when some competitors hire 4 or 5 warlords to sit in at once.

Eventually, it would become institutionalised - it would become codified and accepted practice for professional gladiators to hire one 'coach' each, who would be given special seating and will call advice to their respective gladiators. Gladiators wouldn't be allowed to employ more than one, and those who were found to have employed multiple Warlords would be disqualified.

In the end, the loophole is plugged, and fair play is restored - Since each gladiator can only have one warlord, the gladiators go out and hire the best they can afford, and would come to rely on their one trustworthy advisor - after all, who would they trust? The coach they know personally and trust in their competence, or some guy in the audience? As such, called advice from warlords in the audience would become effectively nullified, since the gladiator knows very well it can be fatal to follow the advice of some untried schmuck.

'Audience Warlords' would probably become a punishable form of cheating, if it can be proven. Heck, it could eventually come up as a quest - a bookie suspects a gladiator had hired extra warlords to sit in on a match, and asks the party to look into it.

Elana
2008-09-26, 09:25 AM
Hm, I thought shouting such thing in an arena fight is normal.

if the DM wouldn't have wanted the gnome to win, he would have mentioned the 50 NPCs who did exactly the same thing.

Only that 45 of them were rooting for the champion.

(Hm, considering that, i hope they hav changed the time for a combat round since 3.5, that many attacks in 6 seconds could look silly :) )

Charity
2008-09-26, 10:02 AM
Hm, I thought shouting such thing in an arena fight is normal.

if the DM wouldn't have wanted the gnome to win, he would have mentioned the 50 NPCs who did exactly the same thing.

Only that 45 of them were rooting for the champion.

(Hm, considering that, i hope they hav changed the time for a combat round since 3.5, that many attacks in 6 seconds could look silly :) )

As would having every warlord in the western hemisphere at one small fight, is this ever likely to really be an issue?
Sorry but it does seem incongruous to complain that what amounts to an incredably unrealistic scenario looks silly.

CockroachTeaParty
2008-09-26, 02:58 PM
That whole 'melee' thing makes me sad. I totally missed, and I suppose that by the RAW, it's true. However, that's not the way we've been using the power in play, and I think I'm going to house rule that it can be used at range.

The story of the gnome vs. the dragonborn is awesome! Too cool to let that go, I say.

Some other uses at range that my group's warlord has used:

Allowing other people to attack while the warlord was immobilized. (works well with Knight's move)

Allowing the fighter with a reach weapon to attack enemies on the ceiling outside the warlord's reach, etc.

Our warlord uses it only on certain specific occasions. After all, all the glory can't go to the fighter or rogue alone! But the extra damage from the INT modifier adds up, and it's a solid at-will, and not really broken if allowed at range.

Arbitrarity
2008-09-26, 03:02 PM
*Mentally houserules to Range 5.*

Oslecamo
2008-09-26, 03:26 PM
That DM-fu was really weak.