[4e] Players need help with leveling/builds

[Swordguy]

So, we're playing through KotSF, and my players are overwhelmed with choice regarding leveling options. They're literally paralyzed because they don't know what to take, and they're afraid of taking the wrong options, even with the retraining rules. Being just as new to the system myself, I don't feel comfortable in giving advice at this time. So, optimization help, anyone? Where should they go from here?

Dwarven Fighter 3 (note: according to player, going weapon/shield is out of the question)

Str 16
Dex 13
Con 16
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 10

HP 43

Trained Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate

AC: 18 (+1 Dwarven Chain)
FORT: 16
REF: 12
WIL: 13

At Wills:
Cleave
Reaping Strike

Encounter:
Spinning Sweep

Dailies:
Brute Strike
Unstoppable (Utility)

Feats:
Dwarven Weapon Training
Potent Challenge

Notable Equipment:
+1 Dwarven Chain, Greataxe, eleventy-billion javelins


Human Cleric 2

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 11
Wis 18
Cha 14

HP 27

Trained Skills: Arcana, Heal, History, Insight, Religion

AC: 14 (Leather)
FORT: 12
REF: 12
WIL: 17

At Wills:
Lance of Faith
Priest's Shield
Sacred Flame

Encounter:
Divine Fortune
Turn Undead
Healing Word
Cause Fear
Raven Queen's Blessing

Dailies:
Beacon of Hope
Cure Light Wounds (Utility)

Feats:
Raven Queen's Blessing
Exotic Weapon Prof (Katar)
Shield Proficiency (Light)

Notable Equipment:
Katar (RQ's favored weapon in my campaign), leather armor


Halfling Rogue 3

Str 12
Dex 13
Con 18
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 16

HP 35

Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception , Stealth, Thievery

AC: 16 (Leather)
FORT: 12
REF: 17
WIL: 14

Selected Artful Dodger Rogue Tactic ability

At Wills:
Deft Strike
Sly Flourish

Encounter:
Dazing Strike (retrained from Positioning Strike)
2nd Chance (racial)
Tumble (utility)

Dailies:
Trick Strike
Setup Strike

Feats: Backstabber, Nimble blade (IIRC)

Notable Equipment: Leather Armor, 2 daggers, sling


Elandrin Wizard 3 (Orb Wizard; has not chosen lvl 3 encounter spell yet)

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 18
Wis 14
Cha 11

HP 31

Trained Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, History, Religion

AC: 15 (Cloth)
FORT: 12
REF: 15
WIL: 16

At Wills:
Magic Missile
Thunderweave

Encounter:
Fey Step (racial)
Force orb
Shield (Utility)

Dailies:
Flaming Sphere
Sleep
Acid Arrow

Feats: Expanded Spellbook, Quick Draw

Notable Equipment: Aecris (+1 Longsword)


I'm aware they're behind on equipment - I'm giving out what they've earned in the adventure thus far and no more for now (want to see if WotC got the treasure distribution about right). So far, they've gone through roughly 1/3rd of the 1st level of the Keep (the entry room, the torture chamber, part of the maze with the runs and the tomb of Sir Keegan), and just finished off the encounter in the graveyard back at Winterhaven. There just hasn't been much loot for them thus far.

[skywalker]

Are these guys leveling up to the levels listed, or are they already at those levels?

[Swordguy]

They're at these levels.

[ghost_warlock]

For the dwarven fighter:

lvl 3 - crushing blow
lvl 4 - pact initiate (infernal pact)
lvl 5 - rain of steel
lvl 6 - novice power (spinning sweep vampiric embrace); defensive training
lvl 7 - come and get it
lvl 8 - toughness
lvl 9 - victorious surge
lvl 10 - adept power (brute strike armor of agathys); into the fray

Ability increases go to Str & Con throughout.

For the human cleric:

lvl 3 - command
lvl 4 - action surge
lvl 5 - consecrated ground
lvl 6 - human perseverance; bastion of health
lvl 7 - searing light
lvl 8 - improved initiative
lvl 9 - blade barrier
lvl 10 - toughness; mass cure light wounds

Ability increases go to Wis & Cha throughout.

That rogue is borked; please tell me the Dex and Con scores are transposed...

For the eladrin wizard:

lvl 3 - icy rays
lvl 4 - armor proficiency (leather)
lvl 5 - bigby's icy grasp, stinking cloud, web
lvl 6 - improved initiative; dimension door, disguise self, dispel magic
lvl 7 - winter's wrath
lvl 8 - defensive mobility
lvl 9 - ice storm, mordenkainen's sword, wall of fire
lvl 10 - toughness; arcane gate, blur, mirror image

Ability increases go to Int & Wis throughout.

[skywalker]

Ok, so then my first big question is, why doesn't the dwarf have a 3rd level encounter power? I recommend crushing blow. Other questions about the dwarf: Is he dead-set on the great-axe, or just two-handers in general? Toughness is never a bad feat to take. Here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1080296) is some good analysis of fighter powers, altho there's no equipment analysis, hopefully yet. Of course he's going to want to put the +1 for level for in STR and CON.

For the cleric, I don't think Cure Light Wounds is a very good power, but he looks like the heal-bot so I suppose it's probably better safe than sorry. I recommend Command for level 3.

For the rogue, I'm curious how often he or she actually hits things? I'm sorry to say I don't think a 13 DEX is going to make it. Stat boosts need to go into DEX for sure. 4th edition is based around you having good scores in your primary attack stats and then pumping the hell out of them(because WOTC spent way too much time paying attention to the 3.5 Optimization boards.). Other than that, Setup Strike is an encounter, not a daily, which should illegal(fitting since it's a rogue power). Feats-wise... I'm thinking toughness isn't that important here with that fighter and that 18 CON... First time I've ever seen that in a rogue... Lost in the Crowd? Or Quickdraw or Improved Initiative?

I have very little to say about the wizard except show them this. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1041166)

[Gralamin]

I'm assuming the cleric should be 3rd level?

For the fighter, I'd recommend Crushing Blow unless he's often surrounded(in which case Sweeping Blow can be better), looking towards grabbing Rain of Steel, Unbreakable, Come and Get It (Remember the update!), Thicket of Blades, and Into the Fray. (Thats up to level 10). Feat wise, they want Toughness, Power Attack, Durable, and or Multiclass (Warlock, Infernal pact).

The Cleric looks like its going Lazer, so Daunting Light is a solid choice, as it helps the Rogue. Command is a bit more of a controller power, and if it hits (good chance) it also gives combat advantage, plus you can knock prone if you want. Command is probably a bit better, but the player can probably take either and be fine. Consecrated Ground helps fill the healer job of the Cleric, though as its in the back anyway Spiritual Weapon is probably a better choice. Cure serious wounds is good. Searing Light is better then Break the Spirit. Blade Barrier gives some nice control, and you cannot go wrong with Mass Cure Light Wounds. Everyone should pick up Toughness really, and the Cleric will Like Action Surge and Human Perseverance (the healer not dying is a good thing). Astral Fire may look tempting, but I'd put it as a last resort as +1 damage per tier isn't all that great.

The Rogue is a charisma rogue, which means its probably going to go with a bit more controller aspects. Bait and Switch helps this, as does Walking Wounded. Chameleon will help with hiding. Cloud of Steel gives you an AoE power which can be nice, Though Rogue's Luck is almost an ensured hit. Knockout is incredibly Strong. Shadow Stride is even more stealthy goodness. Press the Advantage, Toughness, Jack of All Trades, and Improved Initiative are all good for the rogue.

The Wizard is a bit more modular. Color Spray I'd say is the best level 3, and it does actually have an okay range to it. Probably want to pick up Web, Stinking Cloud, and Fireball, preparing Stinking Cloud. Dimension Door gives the Squishy some maneuverability. Winters Wrath is rather good. Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, and Mordenkainen's Sword are all rather good, though Wall of Fire is what will usually be prepped. Blur keeps you safe from most ranged attacks. The Wizard will also like Toughness, Improved Initiative, and some Warlord Multiclassing might be a good idea (to get access to stuff like Own the Battlefield way later).

[Swordguy]

Gah! Damnable typos!

Yes, the rogue is Dex 18, Con 13. The Cleric is, in fact, Level TWO. She joined up in the game as "Irontooth's prisoner" a few sessions in, and she preferred to start as a beginning character, so she's a bit behind, XP-wise. And the Fighter does, in fact, have Crushing Blow.

I look at this as a lesson about the dangers of copying large amounts of text from the hastily-written copies of people's character sheets.

The character archetypes the PLAYERS have been going after are as follows:
Fighter: mixed tanking/striker (absolutely dead-set on the greataxe - these folks are heavy RP-ers, not optimizers whatsoever. Theatre people.)
Rogue: Striker
Cleric: Healbot
Wizard: aoe blaster

[Colmarr]

I'm playing cleric at the moment, so it's the only class I really feel comfortable commenting on.

In that vein:

1. She really should be wearing chainmail. The difference between AC 14 and AC 18 is HUGE.

2. All of her non-AC defences are 1 point too low. I assume you/they have forgotten to add in the bonus from Human or half level.

3. I agree with an earlier poster that Cure Light Wounds is not the best of the level 2 cleric utility spells. It's a viable choice, but Shield of Faith has better general utility and can probably account for as many hp per day as CLW can. With Cha 14, I'd even consider taking the saving throw power. Despite being a standard action to use, the +2 bonus that she'd provide on the save could be a lifesaver.

4. It goes without saying that a Katar is not really the best weapon for a cleric to spend a feat on, but it's a RP choice so fair enough.

In terms of advancement, I'd recommend bumping Dex to 13 at level 4 and then at some stage picking up Astral Fire for the bonus damage to flame and radiant damage. Otherwise I agree with the comments made by Gralamin.

Other than that I think she's doing all right.

[kbk]

Some people are going to always discuss different optimized builds and everything else, but that's not going to necessarily let them play and get a feel for what abilities feel right, or let them experiment and learn for themselves.

I think you should encourage the players to just pick different abilities. Be lenient about allowing them to swap an ability if they realize an ability doesn't work the way they wanted, or if they needed a prereq for a feat. Let them switch feats, or abilities around without leveling, or let them retrain more than one thing at a level.

Obviously, if you see them start to abuse this, it means they've started to learn what abilities generally work, and its time to stop being so lenient.

[Kurald Galain]

Halfling Rogue 3
* I'd suggest that Riposte Strike is better than Sly Flourish.
* Also, Blinding Barrage is probably the best level-1 daily available, even if it tends to be jarring in terms of fluff.
* Backstabber is, perhaps surprisingly, not as good as people think, specifically because anything that increases to-hit by +1 is better than anything that increases damage by +2. For the same reason, he should throw daggers rather than use a sling.

Elandrin Wizard 3
* Orb wizard isn't all that useful on low-level, because of the relative lack of low-level spells with save-ends effects. A staff may be more useful for its AC bonus. Also, if the intent is to be an area blaster, orbs don't fit.
* Remember that Eladrin get an extra skill, which need not come from the wizard's list either. His list appears to be lacking this. Stealth and Perception are popular choices.
* Magic missile is a poor choice. I'd suggest the scorching burst instead; mook clearing is part of your job.
* Likewise, Force orb only deals damage, as does acid arrow, and that would be the striker's job rather than the controller's. Something like icy terrain is more fitting for an orb wizard.
* Expanded spellbook is, perhaps again surprisingly, not that good a feat, since you only get to prepare one spell anyway, and have to make this choice way in advance. One of the best feats for wizards is leather armor proficiency (+2 AC, yay). Jack of all Trades is also a good choice.
* Quick Draw doesn't strike me as useful for a wizard; I'd suggest Improved Initiative insteead.

YMMV, and HTH.


(edit)


For the eladrin wizard:
I'm quite sure quick draw doesn't stack with imp init (both are feat bonuses).


Ability increases go to Int & Wis throughout.
Boosting Cha to 12 (and to 13 with the level-11 increase) is recommended so you can pick up Spell Focus.

[Mando Knight]

If the Wizard is going to be a blaster, his 14 DEX is sufficient to suggest wands. Otherwise, I'd have put the extra points in either Int or Cha to boost powers (Cha for the feats). He wants to be an AoE blaster, so I'd say Shock Sphere since it's a ranged burst that deals massive damage. If he ever goes Paragon (i.e. long campaign, etc.), I'd say he should take the Spiral Tower Paragon Path.

[Asbestos]

Some people are going to always discuss different optimized builds and everything else, but that's not going to necessarily let them play and get a feel for what abilities feel right, or let them experiment and learn for themselves.

I think you should encourage the players to just pick different abilities. Be lenient about allowing them to swap an ability if they realize an ability doesn't work the way they wanted, or if they needed a prereq for a feat. Let them switch feats, or abilities around without leveling, or let them retrain more than one thing at a level.

Obviously, if you see them start to abuse this, it means they've started to learn what abilities generally work, and its time to stop being so lenient.

Yeah, agreed, let them figure it out on their own or just pick what they think is cool and fits their character. In 3.5 some level of optimization was required just so you could survive as you increased in level, that isn't so in 4e. Being optimized in 4e will just make things easier, it is no longer a requirement though.

[Yakk]

Yes, the rogue is Dex 18, Con 13. The Cleric is, in fact, Level TWO. She joined up in the game as "Irontooth's prisoner" a few sessions in, and she preferred to start as a beginning character, so she's a bit behind, XP-wise. And the Fighter does, in fact, have Crushing Blow.
Give characters a level or more behind double XP until they catch up.

They'll still fall behind periodically (ie, they'll hit level 3, and everyone else will be level 3 and nearly done, and earn 1x XP for a period -- then the party hits level 4, and they start getting double XP again), but they will catch up over time that way.

If someone falls 2 levels behind, give them 4x XP.

This also lets you start out new characters, or replacement characters, 2 levels behind the highest level member of the party, without them always dragging behind the XP total of the veterans.

(In 7.5 encounters, you catch up if the party itself doesn't level -- which isn't likely, as the high-levels gain a level every 10 encounters or so. So it takes about 10-15 encounters for you to be mostly caught up, and when the high-level members of the party gain levels, you have to wait a geometrically decreasing number of sessions to 'catch up' again. Or, in short, the math works out wonderfully. Note that you should not double the "leftover" past that required to reach 1 or 0 levels behind the party (ie, if you are 500 XP from matching the highest level party member, and your share of an encounter is 350 XP -- it is doubled to 700, 500 is eaten off it (leaving 200), which is then de-doubled (Ie, halved) down to 100. Or, alternatively, you need 500 XP -- that uses up 250 of your reward (after the doubling), leaving 100 into the actual level).


* I'd suggest that Riposte Strike is better than Sly Flourish.
Riposte Strike requires that your target _choose to attack the Rogue_. It really is a "no, you in particular may not attack me". It also depends heavily on str to be effective.

The vs Reflex rogue attack kicks ass -- and against high reflex targets, getting cha-to-damage can be useful.

Deft Strike ... sucks, because it is a ghetto charge that lets you use dex instead of strength. Riposte Strike just ensures (or encourages) that a target doesn't attack you -- which can be useful, I suppose.

[Colmarr]

Deft Strike ... sucks, because it is a ghetto charge that lets you use dex instead of strength.

I always saw Deft Strike as the power that grants a rogue additional ability to circle an opponent looking for combat advantage. In my play sessions, I've noticed that circling an opponent (without provoking OAs) has often required 7 or 8 squares movement.

Deft Strike gives rogues (especially Elven Rogues) the ability to do that. It's not the best of the at-wills, but I wouldn't say it "sucks".

[Oracle_Hunter]

I always saw Deft Strike as the power that grants a rogue additional ability to circle an opponent looking for combat advantage. In my play sessions, I've noticed that circling an opponent (without provoking OAs) has often required 7 or 8 squares movement.

Deft Strike gives rogues (especially Elven Rogues) the ability to do that. It's not the best of the at-wills, but I wouldn't say it "sucks".

Well, note that it is a move not a shift that it allows. So if you use it to round the corner, you're going to be targeted by an OA. It's not bad if you need more move (I use it for my dwarven rogue, for instance) but most Rogues are going to be plenty fast as it is.

EDIT: Also, the "taking the long way" approach requires you to have a lot of empty space to move through; so it doesn't work so well in dungeons or other crowded battlespaces.

[Kurald Galain]

Deft Strike ... sucks, because it is a ghetto charge that lets you use dex instead of strength.

At first glance, it does; however, there are three things worth mentioning. First, it can be used with missile attacks; second, it can be used to step around corners and the like. Third, and most importantly, if you're hidden, you can move-two-and-attack as one action, thus enabling you to sneak attack. I'm reasonably sure charging doesn't let you do that.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Third, and most importantly, if you're hidden, you can move-two-and-attack as one action, thus enabling you to sneak attack. I'm reasonably sure charging doesn't let you do that.

I don't see why it work for one, but not the other. In both cases, movement & attack are part of the same action. Also, you supposedly lose Hiding the moment you lose Cover/Concealment, so neither should grant you a Sneak Attack from hiding.

But you could certainly rule it does, if you'd like.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't see why it work for one, but not the other.
Says so in the errata for the PHB. You resolve your entire action before you check for losing concealment, but if you move more than two squares you must make a new check at a penalty anyway.

[Gralamin]

I'm reasonably sure charging doesn't let you do that.

All charging requires now is moving 2 square and moving directly to the nearest square you can attack the enemy, so it can go around corners. Since according to errata as you say, you don't end being hidden until you attack, it can also do that. Its main advantage is that it can be used at range.

[Colmarr]

Stuff

Yep, noted. I never said it was the best at-will, just disputed that it sucked :smallsmile: