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Isomenes
2008-09-25, 10:27 AM
So I'm creating a character for a new campaign, a human ranger themed around being an exceedingly capable hunter for his farming community. But I keep angsting over how necessary Wisdom will be.

Before I lay out the stats, here are the rules for this point buy: we start with all 10s, and may buy points according to the PHB, starting with 25 points. Additionally, we can take -3 to one or two stats (i.e., -3 to one OR -2 to one and -1 to another) to gain an additional point (totaling 26).

Here are Rennick's stats (1st level):

Str 16
Con 12
Dex 16 (+2 human)
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10

Skills: Nature, Perception, Heal, Athletics, Endurance, Stealth

Feats: Toughness (Rgr bonus), Alertness, Action Surge

Powers: Careful Attack, Twin Strike, Hit and Run, Fox's Cunning (E), Hunter's Bear Trap (D)

He's a dual-wielder using javelin and spear, with a longbow tucked away just in case he needs truly open range. The javelin allows him to open up at close range without needing to drop his weapons and spend a minor action to draw the bow, and it has the additional benefit of being Heavy Thrown. (Of course, this does not reduce the need for Dex.)

Basically, with alertness, a 16 Wis gives him passive perception 20. Is that worth it to take the hit in Str or Dex? To account for the lower Str, I've chosen powers and feats that give bonuses to hit: Careful Attack (Str/Dex+2 vs. AC), Fox's Cunning (Str/Dex+Wis vs. AC after an enemy hits you), and Action Surge (+3 to attacks made when using an action point). But I keep having buyer's remorse.

To be honest, I'm more or less ok with the stats I've come up with; it feels like a nice balance when combined with the powers. But given the near necessity of having a superlative attack stat in 4E, the possibility of a need for high Wisdom rankles me. What do you think?

Charity
2008-09-25, 10:38 AM
Dual strike is better than careful attack, two attacks >> +2 to hit for hitting purposes... making careful attack essentially pointless, I would advise taking the other at will rather than the (frankly poor) careful strike.

Aside from that, action surge is great keep that, and if you are thinking that far ahead Pit fighter PP would be strong for this character.

Isomenes
2008-09-25, 11:01 AM
Dual strike is better than careful attack, two attacks >> +2 to hit for hitting purposes... making careful attack essentially pointless, I would advise taking the other at will rather than the (frankly poor) careful strike.

Aside from that, action surge is great keep that, and if you are thinking that far ahead Pit fighter PP would be strong for this character.

Well, he's got both, so it may be that careful strike ends up getting used less. But I'm still trying to figure out why two attacks is better than one attack at a higher bonus. Aside from critical failure issues, neither does ability mod. damage, so it seems like they reach parity in the middle of the curve (though, obviously, the outside potential for double crit is a nice thing).

Tengu_temp
2008-09-25, 11:16 AM
As a two-weapon ranger, you will need strength more than wisdom - I suggest upgrading it to 18 and lowering wisdom to 14. If you know you will be mostly doing melee, you might want to lower dexterity to 14 instead - -1 to initiative and AC is not that big of a blow.

Isomenes
2008-09-25, 11:25 AM
It occurs to me that going elf would solve some of these problems--I'd be able to have an 18 and two 16s where I want them (Str, Dex, Wis) and not have to worry at all. At which point I'd definitely take Twin Strike over Careful Attack. I'd lose action surge, but fortunately, Alertness would not be entirely required at that point, so I could go with Elven Precision instead to augment the racial power and help make up for the loss of Action Surge.

Yakk
2008-09-25, 12:58 PM
Well, he's got both, so it may be that careful strike ends up getting used less. But I'm still trying to figure out why two attacks is better than one attack at a higher bonus. Aside from critical failure issues, neither does ability mod. damage, so it seems like they reach parity in the middle of the curve (though, obviously, the outside potential for double crit is a nice thing).

Sure -- if careful attack gave a +10 bonus to hit, it would be better than dual strike in some situations.

The problem is that the +2 bonus isn't large enough to make up for the 2nd attack.

The average damage from twin strike is (base chance of hitting) * (average weapon damage) * 2.

The average damage from careful attack is (base chance of hitting + 10%) * (average weapon damage).

Now, subtract careful attack from twin strike:
(base chance of hitting) * (average weapon damage) * 2 - (base chance of hitting + 10%) * (average weapon damage)

Break the (base chance of hitting + 10%) term into two parts:
(base chance of hitting) * (average weapon damage) * 2 - (base chance of hitting) * (average weapon damage) - 10% * (average weapon damage)

Note the common term, and eliminate:
(base chance of hitting) * (average weapon damage) - 10% * (average weapon damage)

Group by average weapon damage:
(base chance of hitting - 10%) * (average weapon damage)

So here you have it. Careful Attack is greater than Twin Strike _exactly_ when your (base chance of hitting) is less than 10%.

Which means that Careful Attack is only better, on average, than Twin Strike if you would hit exactly a 19 or 20 using Twin Strike.

That is a pretty narrow window. On top of this, it ignores hunters quarry, and critical hits, both of which make Twin Strike even better than Careful Attack.

TwystidMynd
2008-09-25, 03:00 PM
As an addition to Yak's rationale, Twin Strike also allows you to strike at two targets, another bonus that you can't get from Careful Strike.

Isomenes
2008-09-25, 03:25 PM
Sigh. Well, as an elf it won't matter as much. Thanks for the breakdown, Yakk. I didn't understand a bit of it, but I trust that it's correct.

Still not sure whether Wisom needs to be at +3, though. Even with a bonus to Dex and Wis, I still need to blow most of my points (15) on the 18 in Str, leaving the two 14s that get bumped up to 16s. There are some seriously useful advantages to having high Wis beyond just perception, in particular with Fox's Cunning, Disruptive Strike, and Hawk's Talon.

It's driving me MAD! :smallwink:

Yakk
2008-09-25, 04:03 PM
Ok, the layman's version.

Twin strike: 2 attempts to attack for X damage.
Careful strike: 1 attempt to attack for X damage, but an extra 10% chance to hit on that attack.

So long as your chance to hit is 10% or greater, that 2nd attack is better than a 10% additional chance to hit on the first attack.

Artanis
2008-09-25, 05:17 PM
One-sentence version:

If a roll of 19 will hit, then Twin Strike is better.

JBento
2008-09-25, 05:34 PM
Also, if race is still on the table, may I suggest the bugbear? +2Str, +2Dex, +2 Stealth, Oversized Weapon, and Predatory Eye and goodness for a melee ranger. Throw on a heavy cloak, gloves and a mask, and you can try to pass as a large human, too.

Isomenes
2008-09-25, 05:48 PM
Also, if race is still on the table, may I suggest the bugbear? +2Str, +2Dex, +2 Stealth, Oversized Weapon, and Predatory Eye and goodness for a melee ranger. Throw on a heavy cloak, gloves and a mask, and you can try to pass as a large human, too.

Race is up for grabs, but it's mainly human or elf. Bugbear's definitely not in the picture, alas.

JBento
2008-09-25, 06:25 PM
Why? Why is the bugbear not in the picture? Are you saying the bugbears are ugly? Huh? Are you? They're ugly so tehy can't be in the picture is that it? Huh? Huh?

Heh. sorry, just had to take that shot :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Charity
2008-09-25, 07:00 PM
Elves are pretty much the perfect PHB race for a ranger, also their racial power is very strong.

Isomenes
2008-09-25, 09:29 PM
Elves are pretty much the perfect PHB race for a ranger, also their racial power is very strong.

Actually, I think drow are the perfect rangers.

Let me amend that: one drow is the perfect ranger.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-09-25, 09:32 PM
Elves are pretty much the perfect PHB race for a ranger, also their racial power is very strong.

Heck yes. The ability to shift in difficult terrain is an absolute must for any archer ranger.