My group is too big!

[Lycan 01]

I guess all my complaints about not being able to find players for my group came back to haunt me.

My Call of Cthulhu group is... *stops to do the math* 8 people! 9, if you include me, the Keeper...

And here's the kicker. One of my players invited her brother to play. Without checking with me.

Now this is bad for 2 reasons.

1: I have too many friggin' players as it is.

2: Remember when I first joined this forum, and I was talking about a homicidal DM who was in general just a really immature and not-fun-to-play-with sort of player? Yep, this is the same guy...


So now if I say he can't play, I'll look like a jerk. The guy has no friends, so I do feel kinda bad about possibly saying no. But we're already started on our new campaign, and I KNOW he'll start something with my other players if he plays. (Conflicting personas led to shoving and spilt drinks last time I let him come over for a game of Arkham Horror...) Plus, he's prone to saying things that are... awkward, or weird, and it makes everyone else feel a bit uncomfortable at times.


Now, as it is, we just started our new campaign. But there's no plot-allowable way for a new person to join. So thankfully, I'm saved by that bit of info. Once the campaign ends in a couple of weeks though, boy am I in for it...


Im already stressed dealing with 8 players... I mean, if they all stuck together and went in a set order like I ask them to do, it'd be great. But they always split into at least 2 groups, and they always talk at the same time and complain when I miss something they said they wanted to do.

Urrrrgh... What can I do?

I have thought about splitting the group into 2 groups. But the only time most of them can play is Saturday. Everyone's got ever-changing schedules and/or fickle parents...

I've tried forcing them into talking in order, but that quickly breaks down. They also seem to come down with an epidemic of ADD and ADHD right before plot-centric moments. I've had to warn certain players on multiple occasions to either turn down or turn off their iPods while I'm talking because it just FRIGGIN ANNOYS ME. :smallfurious: Ahem... Anyway...


Like I said... my complaints about not having enough players have come back to chew off my posterior section.

[Rei_Jin]

Too many players huh?

Is that too many to handle, or too many for the story?

If it's the first, then tell them that you can't handle that many players, and that he can't join. Also be honest and tell them that this person causes conflict within the group, and you don't think it's a good idea for them to join.

If it's too many for the story (which will be the case for the next few weeks) then that's an easy one.

And don't be afraid to tell your players how it is. If you just don't get along with someone, tell them that. If they have a problem with it, they can leave.

That way, you'll have a few less players as well :smallwink:

[AstralFire]

6 PCs is my limit as a DM, personally. I am grateful that mine got the hint when I made frowny faces at them if they split up too much.

You have two choices beyond just dealing with 9 players:
1) Start making people pissed off and telling people "no, this is just too much and in general I think I need to pull back."
2) Recruit an assistant DM. I've done it a few times and I've seen others do it. One DM handles say, NPC combat stats (optimizers are great for this. May not be workable in Call of Cthulu) and the other handles managing all of the battle grid logistics and double-checkign PC stats.

[Kurald Galain]

a homicidal DM who was in general just a really immature and not-fun-to-play-with sort of player? Yep, this is the same guy...

So now if I say he can't play, I'll look like a jerk. The guy has no friends

Well, let me put it like this... that the guy has no friends, would that be his fault or your fault?

Unless you're a social worker and getting paid by him, you should not feel morally obliged to invite guys that (1) cause trouble, (2) you don't even like, (3) to an already oversized group.

[Lycan 01]

I'll still feel bad though. Like I said, he has no friends... *shrug*


But as previously stated, I have too many people as it is... I can handle it, but just barely. Is there any way I can keep them more... under control?


I already did "Rock falls, everyone dies" at the beginning of our last session. They all kept talking at the same time, and then they began to babble about emo bands and random other stuff. Needless to say, my patience died. Quickly.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Your only option sounds like 2 groups. Ask everyone when they're free or can be free, see if you can break into 2 groups of 5 or 6. Maybe, depending on how long your games run, you can hold 2 on Saturday.

On the kid...Seek him out, tell him you've had problems with him in the past, tell him what those problems were, and tell him that you're willing to give him another chance. Then give him one. If he shapes up, or at least is making an effort, good. If not, kick him out. Depends on what he's doing whether you do it during or after the session, but unless he's being horrible and ruining the game for others, wait till after as it's more polite and much better for you, politically. Detail which of his actions you have issue with, say that they are part of a pattern, and say that you think it would be best if the 2 of you went separate ways, as you do not see him as a good fit for any games you plan to run in the future.
Then if anyone asks, tell them that he was causing problems for the group and you did all you could to fix that, but eventually you had to separate, and while you honestly wish him the best, and hope he can find a group that fits his needs better, you don't see him fitting well into any games you run. If pressured detail the specific incident, and mention that it's part of a series of similar acts on his part, but avoid bad-mouthing him, say that you wish you could give him another chance, but that it would be just too disruptive.

[AstralFire]

That's why I suggested recruiting an assistant DM.

Other than that, no. I limit players to 4 when it comes to RL because it's much easier to get derailed yourself and end up laughing yourselves silly with much more. At least in my case.

[Rei_Jin]

*Looks around*

I've run groups with up to twelve players before. It's tough, but doable. You just need to keep them focused. I've found that the fear of death does that very nicely.

Oh, and plenty of food. Keep them full, and they sit down quietly and watch what happens.

Mind you, I don't recommend anyone run a group that large unless they have a near encyclopedic knowledge of the rules.

[Lycan 01]

Actually, I just asked most of the other players what they think about him joining.

Their responses have been unanimous: NO.


And I'm going to ask the group about splitting up. The thing is, though, most of their characters are connected via friendship or business. So, in order to keep with the plot... we can't split up. :smallfrown:


I'm hoping they can keep themselves under control for the next campaign. Especially since its going to be quite hard.

The campaign itself is, in a nutshell: Travelling the world, researching the Cthulhu Cult, sneaking onto a cruise ship, wrestling control of it from Cthulhu Cult hijackers, stopping the summoning of Great Cthulhu, and trying not to die during any of this.

The thing is, more people will be needed if they want to win... It'll just be a bit bothersome at times, I fear. :smallfrown:



And I can vouch for encyclopedia-like knowledge of the rules. I read the CoC rulebook whenever I get bored. :smallbiggrin:

[Tsotha-lanti]

You can be nice ( = a doormat) and stressed out, or assertive ("mean") and not stressed out. I'd be pretty damned offended if someone just invited another person over to play (at my house, at that) without asking me.

With 10 people, I'd suggest breaking up into two groups of five (someone else runs the other one), or running games on alternating nights/weeks with smaller groups.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Actually, I just asked most of the other players what they think about him joining.

Their responses have been unanimous: NO.In that case, find the kid, tell him that the group is already massive, and most of the players would prefer not adding anyone else as it's confusing enough keeping track of everyone's IC names.

[tarbrush]

You could try involving them in the problem? Tell them that you're getting stressed out and losing focus cause the group is so big and ask them if they have any ideas to make things more manageable. It's much easier to get people to buy into a solution if they're the ones that suggested it.

[Stupendous_Man]

I'll still feel bad though. Like I said, he has no friends... *shrug*

And that is what he deserves.

Keep the bugger out and have fun.

[AstralFire]

The way to help is probably to help him realize he has a problem and have him overcome it. Wallflowers are the ones who usually need the softer kind of befriending.

[Lycan 01]

Okay, yeah, he's DEFINITELY not playing. I was talking to his sis, and she said he doesn't even know what the game is. Apparently, he thinks "its a game where he can go around doing whatever he wants, and destroying whoever he wants" just like DnD.

I flatly said "No, he's out" in response to that.

Problem solved. :smallamused:

[Return of Lanky]

Split the groups, but still host the occasional get-together with the full party.

For example, one group heads off to Asia to track down a lead for two or three sessions, while the other stays in London and fends off the Cultists. Then when it's time to do the Cruise Ship, everyone's aboard.

It will work out really well, believe me. I've done this a few times before when groups have grown too large and with a bit of forethought it can be handled very easily.

One of the key things to keep in mind is that you want to leave one of the two groups with a vague goal. That way you can slow or fast-track the progress of one group to match the other so that you don't have to cancel a gaming session on one group because the other group needs one more session before all eight can go hit the cruise ship.

You might even want to let them write letters between the groups, which you could type out and print for them. Doing so lets you play the "intercepted and altered mail" ploy a lot more easily. :smallbiggrin:

[Tsotha-lanti]

Split the groups, but still host the occasional get-together with the full party.

What an awesome idea.

[Return of Lanky]

The first time I ever did it, I presented it as a "really cool idea" I had and wanted to try out instead of admitting I was just getting sick of dealing with a grossly overpopulated gaming table.

And I surprised that it did, in fact, work out quite nicely.

[Lycan 01]

I dunno. I'll hand them a hand-drawn journal, detailing the cults plan. They can decide to stick together, split up, whatever...

The majority of the story will be on the cruise ship (I have the deck plans of the Titanic, and I use to play an old PC game where you got to explore it. I'm stoked at that idea, even if it blows up in my face...), so we'll all have to be together for most of the story, anyway. So I think splitting up will be pointless, since I'll still have to figure out the times to meet and everything...


Anyone wanna help with my campaign, btw? :smallsmile:

[AstralFire]

Sorry. I don't help people who wear clogs.

[Inhuman Bot]

Needless to say, my patience died. Quickly.

LIke they did, I would guess.

Also, can you split them into two groups?

Nevermind, I read the whole thread now.

[Calinero]

Urahara's clogs are too cool to be classified as simple clogs. They are their own class of clogs.

Anyways:

I can see what your difficulty might be. Aside from the obvious issues of keeping 8 people from getting distracted/talking about off topic stuff, Cthulhu is a game that, simply put, relies a lot on the roleplaying aspect, character development, and getting scared. The more people you have, the harder it is for each person to roleplay and be noticed. If you can find a reason to divide the party, then do. If not, then make it very clear to the players that they need to stay under control for this game to work. Don't come across as being a fun killer, just let them know that they can't get out of hand.

Is this game going to be in person, or a play by post?

As for anyone willing to help you with the game, I'm afraid that I am not very familiar with the Cthulhu game mechanics. I suppose I could contribute with plot ideas, or NPC's, or something, though. And my friend has a copy of the rules that I could probably borrow. *shrugs* I don't have much DM experience, you'd probably better off with someone who knew more what they were doing.

[Prometheus]

I've DM'd with 6-8 players a very long campaign. It was doable because people paid attention when I needed them too, but not all the time.

I agree with Calinero. In an RP-heavy game, you need to make it clear to the group that the table-talk has to be reduced, and that when it does occur, it has to be to the group as a whole (so they are still paying attention to what everyone else says and the DM says). A different DM group Rp'd fairly well with seven people, it can definitely happen.

I too would help, but like Calinero, know very little about the Mechanics of the game. I am pretty experienced with D&D though, and am generally pretty good at coming up with plot and puzzles. PM me or make a thread if you think there is anything specific that you can help with.

[Thurbane]

Back in 1E AD&D days, our group maxxed out at 10.

We have the opposite problem thesedays, with only 4 (1 DM, 3 players). Happily, it looks like that will be increasing to 6 in a month or so, with 1 guy coming back to live after being o/seas for a year+, and another getting back into D&D after a decade+ break. :smallbiggrin:

[Lycan 01]

I might make another thread in a week or two for the campaign planning.

The main part is the ship. I have a lot of it figured out. Cultists hijack a Titanic-esque liner as it sails across the Pacific, and they steam towards R'Yleh in order to perform the ritual to release Cthulhu, since the stars will be right for the first time in aeons. The Investigators have to then retake the ship.

Cultists will be armed with a few handguns, a long-gun or two, a Browning Automatic Rifle, and the BBEG of the group will be armed with a larger caliber machine gun he wears on a harness. Most of the Cultists will be armed with spells or varying magnitudes. And of course, the BBEG... is a Werewolf.

Why a werewolf? Because I want him to be shocking! I want him to be unkillable in a normal situation! I want him to turn and face in the Investigators half-way through the summoning, and scream "I'VE WAITED TOO MANY CENTURIES FOR YOU TO TAKE THIS FROM ME!!!" at the top of his lungs. And since he's a werewolf, its true! I mean, during his introduction (I want the Investigators to see him leading a service at a cult meeting at some point early in the campaign...), lets say somebody gets off a pot-shot and manages to somehow drop him in one hit. Well, since he's a Werewolf who knows magic, I can say half his head gets turned to fertilizer, and the rest of his face turns to look at the Investigators with a "You're just stupid..." expression upon it. Then he just goes on about his business, because he can't be friggin' killed! Hah hah! Total BBEG material, right?

[Calinero]

Dang. I like the sound of this. I can only imagine the sanity loss that would come with seeing something with half a face start screaming at you. I'm sure the actual transformation couldn't be too pleasant to see either.

The cultists sound pretty heavily armed...might be tough to beat. Guess it's a good thing you have lots of cannon fodder--I mean, players. Right. =)

Also, tsk tsk. Those silly people should have known better than to make a ship anything like the Titanic. That's just asking for trouble.

[Lycan 01]

Its a big ship. Lots of places to hide. It'll be really easy for them to sneak around and jump the Cultists.

But these are the run and gun type of players. Which is why every Cultist at least knows Flesh Ward, a magic spell which essentially translates into "Kevlar in a Can."

I especially love the "Werewolf can't die unless its a silver, blessed, or Baptised weapon" part, since they'll all probably light that sucker up. And then he'll just sneer and grin...


Gosh, I'm tempted to just print out a picture of Alucard from Hellsing flashing a grin and put the words "Thou art fubar" under him, and then show it to the players when they start fighting the BBEG. :smallbiggrin:

[Zeful]

For the group all talking at the same time, get an MP3 player and a set of speakers. When they start talking when their not supposed to be you turn the MP3 player on at full blast. They'll stop talking or go deaf, either way is good.

[Rei_Jin]

My preferred method for getting them to shut up is to start rolling dice, whilst occassionally glancing at a source book, then to ask for their character sheet. It tends to shut them up really quickly :smalltongue:

[Lycan 01]

I like both of those ideas.


Actually, all I have to do is smirk, and they shut up. I'm not a "bad DM." I'm more of an "evil DM," I guess you could say. I don't even know what I did to get this reputation! But all I have to do is smile mischeviously, and they all freak out...


Oh, by the way... Did I tell ya'll about the session 2 weeks ago where Nyarlathotep showed up just to rip one guy's face off? :smallamused:

[Rei_Jin]

Yes, you did. It was amusing, especially considering their reactions.

[Lycan 01]

Thus you can see my excitement in seeing their reaction to the Werewolf shrugging off their attacks.


Hm...

How does this sound for the ending?


No matter how well they do against the Cultists, they cannot stop the beginning of the summoning for Cthulhu. In fact, the Werewolf's dying action is to hurl himself over the railing of the ship, landing in the water and using his blood as the catylist for the ritual.

Now picture this...

The Investigators stand there, kinda stupified. "Did we just win?" the wonder. "Is that... it?"

And then, the rumbling starts.

Soft and distant, at first. And then, slowly it grows louder. Finally, with an almighty roar, the ocean is rent apart as great black tentacles emerge from the deep. They tower over the ship, reaching towards the sky, and blotting out the moon. And then, slowly, they snake through the air towards the liner.

Now imagine, if you will, the Titanic being slowly lifted out of the water by the tentacles of Great Cthulhu, and then snapped in half like a simple twig. Then image one half being crushed like a can and then hurled into the ocean, whilst the other half is simply dragged beneath the waves, with a chorus of horrified shrieks serving as its Requiem.

The Investigators are then given theirs Scores.*

Those with a high score will awaken on a beach some days later, lost and confused. They will have no recollection of what they saw. What they experienced. Their Cthulhu Mythos score is reduced to zero. It is as though they're a fresh character, with no knowledge of the darkness that haunts the world around him. They are then left to either begin anew, or retire the character to a life of simplicity and ignorant bliss.

Characters who have a less than stellar Score will drown and die. End of story.


Btw, since the spell was completed in its entirety, Cthulhu only had the power to sink the ship... then he went back to his Slumber.

Unless they royally screwed up. Then everyone is gonna die...


Score is a mechanic I made up for the Silent Hill campaign. Basically, I grade the player on how well their character does, how well they Roleplay, how annoying they get, how much they participate, et cetra. A series of ^ and V arrows are placed beneath their names, with a small note beside them to explain the action that earned them the arrow. Eventually, I tally the arrows, and see how well they've done in the game. Here, let me give you an example...

*grabs notebook*

Here is how I've scored Player 8. Lets see...


^ - paid for food he grabbed from a gas station
^ - Ran after Player 3 in order to save him
^ - Brutality Kill (awarded for awesome 1-hit kills)
^^ - saved his War Buddy
v - panicked and ran
vv - encountered what he feared most, and panicked
^^ - Used self as a distraction against Pyramid Head so the others could run
^ - ate the food someone had mysteriously prepared for them at the Diner


So lets see... v x 3 | ^ x 8

Player 8 is actually doing the best out of all the players.

Heh... Wanna know what this has to do with anything?


Everyone is gonna die in the end. But after the game, I'm gonna tell Player 8 he wakes up from a nightmare to discover he's at home, safely in bed, with his girlfriend's arms wrapped around him. He then calmly goes back to sleep, and continues on his life, trying to put the dream behind him. But from that night forward, his experiences in Iraq (accidental killing of a child - demon children haunt him in Silent Hill) are never the subject of his nightmares again.

Of course, this is all if he survives the game, and finishes it with a high score like the one he has now...

[Rei_Jin]

Sounds good. But, if you can, why not have the ship crash into the Iceberg, and then when the ritual is completed, Cthullhu cracks out of the Iceberg and consumes them all!

[Kiero]

Split them into two more manageable groups.

[Kantur]

Lycan, my advice for when they split into two groups is this, based on various DMs I've had who've done this:

Give one group information to deal with, make it clear which group it is, let them do a few things until it gets to a moderately quiet point or a good mini break point, say you're moving onto the other group now, and repeat until they join back up. Just be assertive about doing it.

Obviously you may have to explain to them that's how you're going to run it when they split up, and just try to keep it interesting to everyone when you do. And you'll know better than me how well it'll work with your particular group, but it works well with ours knowing that we can relax and just try to take in the details with worrying about logistics of the game for a short while.

And the one last thing I'll say on this depends on how enforcing of in character knowledge you are, but try to keep track of what they haven't learned from the other group yet and with that, you may wish to try and subtly steer them back to a unified group where they'll share all the information after a little while.

[Gorbash]

So now if I say he can't play, I'll look like a jerk.

No, the jerk is the guy who asked him to play without checking with you. He lacks common courtesy and common sense (bringing a 9th guy into a game wth?). And you shouldn't feel bad at all, because first of all, it's not your fault one of your players acted on his own, second of all, you don't even like the guy.

[Calinero]

I like the sound of that ending. Nothing makes a CoC player crap their pants like the big squid god himself. I don't know your players, so I'm not sure how they'll react to the plot mandated near TPK, but it's definitely a good ending to the story.

[Lolzords]

Do what my form tutor did when he had a group of nine, split them into two, then do one group and say "have a think about what you want to do and I'll come back to you" then let the other group have a turn.

Edit: If they still make too much noise make them leave the table while they're discussing. I'm sure they'll be happy as they'll have more time to think up plans.

[Doomsy]

I like the sound of that ending. Nothing makes a CoC player crap their pants like the big squid god himself. I don't know your players, so I'm not sure how they'll react to the plot mandated near TPK, but it's definitely a good ending to the story.

Oddly enough I've been GMing CoC for about two or three years now and have never used Cthulhu himself. And avoided Deep Ones/Innsmouth as much as possible. The last time I used strange lights in the water type deals it was a fakeout with a Colour from Space.

As for the too many players things, I'd go with splitting the party or just flat out winnowing it down if you can and keeping the best and most attentive players if you cannot do that.