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Thurbane
2008-09-25, 09:40 PM
Hey all, I'm looking for some advice for using a DS as the primary tank in a group.

I know they don't have the weapon selection or BAB to be ideal in this role, but they do have decent HP and with one feat (or multiclassing), the ability to wear heavy armor.

In the game in question, the character would be a PHB race, and using feats etc. from the PHB II, core and possibly 1 other splatbook (Complete Series, Race Series etc.).

Any thoughts (other than "don't try to play a Dragon Shaman as a tank)? :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2008-09-25, 09:43 PM
Don't know much about Dragon-anythings, but if they're decent at melee, a reach weapon, high Dex, Combat Reflexes, pumping AC and the Stand Still feat from the XPH/SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) will do for a very impromptu frontline controller (aka tank.)

Grynning
2008-09-25, 09:48 PM
Dragon Shaman + Crusader would make an interesting tank build. Just go the standard Crusader Thicket-of-Blades route along with 5 levels of Dragon Shaman, using the Toughness or Vigor Auras, you'd do quite well. Be a Crusader of either Bahamut or Tiamat and the fluff works fine too.

If you're not a fan of ToB, just multi-class Barbarian as the book suggests, and build to your liking. 3rd doesn't have a great need for "tank" characters as much as it does for melee characters who can do lots of damage and survive to do it again, and DS/Barb is pretty good at that. Go with a decent Dex and a reach weapon as Astral suggested.

Thurbane
2008-09-25, 09:51 PM
Ehh...I always forget to mention. No ToB in this game (also, no psionics or Incarnum). :smallredface:

Grynning
2008-09-25, 09:52 PM
Edited my above when I thought of that possibility :smalltongue:

Rei_Jin
2008-09-25, 10:04 PM
Ask the DM if he'll allow you to do the following. You'll need to be a human to do this though, so you may not agree with it.

Take Dragontouched (Dragon Magic) as your level 1 feat
Take Armor Proficiency: Heavy as your human bonus feat

Then, if your DM will allow you to do so, you can take the Dragonscale Husk alternate class feature (Dragon Magic), thus giving you some nice armor that levels up as you do. You are also then able to take Draconic feats as a Sorceror of your class level. Might be handy for you. You would also have the Dragonblood subtype.

Now you can access such feats as Draconic Heritage, Draconic Skin, and Draconic Claw, as well as adding more Draconic Auras to your list with Draconic Aura and Double Draconic Aura, so you can leave two Auras up at once.

Really, Dragon Magic is your best friend for this character.

SadisticFishing
2008-09-25, 10:31 PM
Play a Paladin/Dragon Shaman. I did it once, it was a blast.

The final build is Paladin 4/Dragon Shaman 16 (not in that order). Take Divine feats (Divine Shield, Divine Might) and Entangling Exhalation. Play a Dragonborn, and use a pointy thing. Make dive attacks with said pointy thing.

Heavy armor from paladin, d10s all around, and you get a decent bit out of your charisma!

Dode
2008-09-25, 10:46 PM
Dragonscale Husk requires Heavy armor as a class feature and Dragon Shamans only get light and medium.

What I'd do is make him a Firekin Dwarf from Dragon Magic, that way you get the Dragontouched feat for free, +2 Con and dwarven waraxe proficiency. Then start spending feats in Races of the Dragon in breath weapon channeling feats.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-25, 10:47 PM
Ah, yes Dode, I know that. That's why I told the OP to check with their DM if they would allow it. If they're spending a feat to gain proficiency and therefore access to the feat, as a DM, I would allow it. It's not unreasonable or game breaking.

Thurbane
2008-09-26, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the advice - but this particular game will be pretty much RAW. Also, PHB races only - but firekin dwarf sounds nice, I'll run it by the DM.

JeminiZero
2008-09-26, 12:56 AM
IMHO, the best Dragon Shamans are heart aspect DragonBorn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1). You get 2 breath weapons, and can alternate between them to put out far more breath damage. You can load up on metabreath feats (Entangling Exhalation, Recover Breath etc) and they'll apply to both breath attacks.

Take the Shaman Invocation Alternate Class Feature (I think its from the same book as Dragonfire adept). You lose one aura, in exchange for 1 least invoc. Grab Endure Exposure, and your friend's won't be hurt by your breath attacks, so you can essentially ignore friendly fire.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-26, 01:02 AM
I'd use Races of the Dragon, make a Gnome Dragonborn of Bahamut, get the breath weapon racial. Go single-classed Dragon Shaman, only worry about Con and Cha in that order. Take Entangling Exhalation and try to use an entangling breath attack as often as possible, considering your Dragon Shaman breath weapon and your Dragonborn breath weapon are on separate timers. You'll usually have no more than one round at a time when you can't use a breath attack. Don't worry about heavy armor, get Breastplate and a heavy shield along with Shield Specialization and Shield Ward (PH2), and later on get Mithril Full Plate.

If you can't go Dragonborn, use the Draconomicon instead of Races of the Dragon. Go with Wild Elf if possible, otherwise just go Human. Get Combat Reflexes and Power Attack along with a Glaive, early on combat reflexes and reach makes every fight go much easier. Get Cleave at level 3, Frightful Presence at 6, Ability Focus: Frightful Presence at 9, Ability Focus: Breath Attack at 12, maybe Quicken Breath or Recover Breath at 15 if the game goes that long.

In either case, foes will likely be Entangled (half speed, -2 attack, -4 dex) or Shaken (-2 to attacks, saves, and every other d20 roll), so you'll basically have another +2 AC from that. Ideally you'd be able to go Gnome Dragonborn with Entangling Exhalation at 1, Recover Breath at 3, and Frightful Presence at 6, but being restricted to only one other book isn't the best situation for building a strong character.

If you want to focus more heavily on AC, maybe use Races of Stone and go Gnome with Dodge and Titan Fighting. Get Shield Specialization and Shield Ward after that, and your AC will be way up there against bigger targets.

AstralFire
2008-09-26, 05:31 AM
Ehh...I always forget to mention. No ToB in this game (also, no psionics or Incarnum). :smallredface:

Stand Still is from the XPH, but it is not psionic. Give it a look.

only1doug
2008-09-26, 05:33 AM
Hey all, I'm looking for some advice for using a DS as the primary tank in a group.

I know they don't have the weapon selection or BAB to be ideal in this role, but they do have decent HP and with one feat (or multiclassing), the ability to wear heavy armor.

In the game in question, the character would be a PHB race, and using feats etc. from the PHB II, core and possibly 1 other splatbook (Complete Series, Race Series etc.).

Any thoughts (other than "don't try to play a Dragon Shaman as a tank)? :smallbiggrin:

Feats:
When i played a dragonshaman the GM gave me dragontouched (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dragontouched_,DMag) feat as a freebee, it has very little advantage but does fit the dragonshaman class and grants dragonblood subtype.

as someone has already mentioned entangling exhilation (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Entangling_Exhalation,RDr) (races of the dragon pg 101) (requires dragonblood subtype) is great; it causes anything damaged by your breath weapon to be entangled and causes ongoing damage to anything so entangled.

Double draconic aura (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Draconic_Aura_,DMag) (dragon magic pg 16) is another good choice, you get to apply two auras simultaneously.

I'd consider Exotic Weapon Proficiency: spiked chain as a reach weapon that can also be used at immediate range, this will work with the entangling exhilation to allow you to hit things that can't reach you.

the expanded list of draconic aura's (dragon magic pg 86) are definitely worth checking, some of them may be better for you than the list in PHBII.
I'd consider the following aura's as priority for a tank:
Vigor (self healing)
Energy aura (they get hurt for hitting you)
Toughness (Damage reduction is good when you are the one getting hit - not so good at higher levels as magic weapons will bypass it)
Power (extra melee damage)


Race: ask the GM if he will allow the draconic subraces of the standard races (dragon magic pg5-10) they have no level adjust and exchange some racial features for alternative features and the dragonblood subtype.



I hope some of these help, good luck and have fun!

Person_Man
2008-09-26, 10:33 AM
Options:

IMO, Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II) is the best tank PrC out there for ECL 6-14. You can heal 10/20/30 points (depending on your level) every round as a Swift action. You also get immunity to Fear, Mettle, and get a few other secondary abilities.

Get a reach weapon. I almost always end up with a few extra attacks every combat. If you can fit it into your build, take Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (or Knock-Down, or Scorpion's Grasp, or whatever), and find a way to increase your reach even further - Enlarge Person, Willing Deformity (Tall), Inhuman Reach, whatever.

Take Spider Climb (Copper Dragon) for your dragon adaptation. Very useful when in dungeons, especially when combined with a reach weapon combo.

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability (PHBII) = +4 Will Save, Fast Healing 4, +8 to resist trips/grapples/disarm/etc. Great for anybody, really.

Metabreath feats for the win. Draconomicon in particular has many useful ones, though its questionable whether a Dragon Shaman can use them.

Penalties from different sources stack. So entangling breath + net + lasso + fear effect can quickly debuff almost anyone, often paralyzing them, and potentially all in one round.