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Frosty
2008-09-25, 11:34 PM
A redeemed fiend still has has the [evil] subtype (and the [lawful] or[chaotic] subtype, depending on devil or demon), but has an actual alignment of Good.

If you have a redeemed Demon or Devil (so it now has a Good alignment), does it still qualify to take a class that requires a non-good alignment (such as Mindbender) or an evil alignment (such as Ur-Priest)?

Would it gain 2 negative levels if it wielded both a +1 holy weapon and a +1 unholy weapon?

Would enemies who have Protection from Evil and Protection from Good gain +4 AC and +4 to all saves against it?

Would, Blasphemy, Holy Word, Dictum, and Word of Chaos all work on a Lawful Good Demon?

Draken
2008-09-25, 11:38 PM
Evil Subtype
A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

So yes, you take the negative levels, you get smited by both spells. You trigger both "detect good" and "detect evil" spells, so you can drive the paladin nuts.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 11:40 PM
Actually, the Succubus *is* the Paladin.

tyckspoon
2008-09-25, 11:40 PM
As mentioned ^, the answer is yes to all. Except for stacking Prot. Good and Prot. Evil, but that's only because the save types are named (resistance to saves and deflection to AC) and don't stack.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-25, 11:40 PM
Whatever the DM says is right.

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule regarding redeemed fiends and fallen angels, etc. It just comes down to what the DM says

The Sanctified template (which I think is what you're looking for) in Book of Exalted deeds says that it can't be applied to a creature with the Evil Subtype, and they gain the Good Subtype. If they had the Baatezu, Tanari, or Yugoloth Subtypes prior to their sanctification, they lose them.

Draken
2008-09-25, 11:45 PM
Actually, the Succubus *is* the Paladin.

That one made by someone in Wizards long, long ago? The one in love with a planetar?

Well, there always are other paladins to confuse.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 11:47 PM
As mentioned ^, the answer is yes to all. Except for stacking Prot. Good and Prot. Evil, but that's only because the save types are named (resistance to saves and deflection to AC) and don't stack.

So this Succubus Paladin can multiclass into Ur-Priest? Funny as hell.

Draken: No, I am not using anyone's NPC. But falling in love with a Planetar is kind of a good idea.

Rei_Jin
2008-09-25, 11:50 PM
Having read a little more, it seems that when you have the Evil Subtype, you can't be redeemed normally. In order to be anything but Evil (according to the RAW) when you have an Evil Subtype, then you must be Sanctified (You gain the Sanctified Template). You then lose the Evil Subtype completely, and you now "ping" as good, and gain the Good Subtype. So, no, you couldn't use an unholy weapon, and protection from evil wouldn't work against you.

Of course, if the DM rules otherwise, go nuts.

Also, when you're Sanctified, your position on the law/chaos axis doesn't change.

Frosty
2008-09-25, 11:58 PM
Having read a little more, it seems that when you have the Evil Subtype, you can't be redeemed normally. In order to be anything but Evil (according to the RAW) when you have an Evil Subtype, then you must be Sanctified (You gain the Sanctified Template). You then lose the Evil Subtype completely, and you now "ping" as good, and gain the Good Subtype. So, no, you couldn't use an unholy weapon, and protection from evil wouldn't work against you.

Of course, if the DM rules otherwise, go nuts.

Also, when you're Sanctified, your position on the law/chaos axis doesn't change.

We are not using the Book of Exalted Deeds I do not believe.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-09-26, 12:02 AM
Having read a little more, it seems that when you have the Evil Subtype, you can't be redeemed normally. In order to be anything but Evil (according to the RAW) when you have an Evil Subtype, then you must be Sanctified (You gain the Sanctified Template). You then lose the Evil Subtype completely, and you now "ping" as good, and gain the Good Subtype. So, no, you couldn't use an unholy weapon, and protection from evil wouldn't work against you.

Of course, if the DM rules otherwise, go nuts.

Also, when you're Sanctified, your position on the law/chaos axis doesn't change.I assume that this thread is related in some way to the LG Succubus Paladin made by WotC, which used a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Draken
2008-09-26, 12:02 AM
Hmm. Well, someone beat you to the idea.

Anyway here is the npc. She still has the Evil and Chaotic Subtypes.

Eludecia, Succubus paladin (http://http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

Fight Club has some pretty funny stuff in there.

Edit: And no, no helm of opposite alignment. It clearly states the npc does not want to resort to magic means.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 01:42 AM
The link did not work. :smallannoyed:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-09-26, 01:48 AM
No on Protection from Evil and Protection from Good being +4, because both are the same type of bonus and don't stack, but either would apply.

vegetalss4
2008-09-26, 01:51 AM
to answer the oginal question by raw
it can take ur-priest, because it counts as evil
it can't take midbender because it counts as good.
it gets negative levels from both holy and unholy
neither Blasphemy, Holy Word, Dictum, or Word of Chaos hurt it as they trigger on non evil,good,lawful or chaotic and it is all of the above
hope that helps

Frosty
2008-09-26, 02:05 AM
The fact that she might be Chaotic, Good, Lawful, and Evil at the same time still boggles my mind.

Word of Balance will probably kill her though.

kamikasei
2008-09-26, 02:37 AM
it can't take midbender because it counts as good.
neither Blasphemy, Holy Word, Dictum, or Word of Chaos hurt it as they trigger on non evil,good,lawful or chaotic and it is all of the above

That raises the interesting question of whether a condition of "non-X" looks at a) whether you lack X or b) whether you possess anything that isn't X (of the same type). So for a good-aligned evil-subtyped creature, will Holy Word affect it because it has the Evil subtype which is non-Good, or not because it has Good alignment which is not non-Good?

Is that addressed anywhere?

Collin152
2008-09-26, 02:43 AM
That raises the interesting question of whether a condition of "non-X" looks at a) whether you lack X or b) whether you possess anything that isn't X (of the same type). So for a good-aligned evil-subtyped creature, will Holy Word affect it because it has the Evil subtype which is non-Good, or not because it has Good alignment which is not non-Good?

Is that addressed anywhere?

Well, if it said Evil, you qualify, but it says non-Good, and you are Good, even though you are also Evil.

kamikasei
2008-09-26, 02:58 AM
Well, if it said Evil, you qualify, but it says non-Good, and you are Good, even though you are also Evil.

What I mean is that there's a difference between "you qualify for this only if you do not have a Good alignment" and "you qualify for this if you have any alignment that isn't Good". In the latter case having the Evil subtype could qualify you even if you also do have a Good alignment, because you're simultaneously Good and non-Good. And I would tend to think that "any non-Good" points to the latter meaning.

Swordguy
2008-09-26, 03:17 AM
Hmm. Well, someone beat you to the idea.

Anyway here is the npc. She still has the Evil and Chaotic Subtypes.

Eludecia, Succubus paladin (http://http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

Fight Club has some pretty funny stuff in there.

Edit: And no, no helm of opposite alignment. It clearly states the npc does not want to resort to magic means.

You've got an extra "http://" in front of your link.

Working link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

Blackfang108
2008-09-26, 10:52 AM
Actually, the Succubus *is* the Paladin.

I think I broke my brain.

Must fight...Mental image.

Must. Fight. Mental. Image.

Ahh, the Abyss with it.

*smiles*

Frosty
2008-09-26, 02:57 PM
What I mean is that there's a difference between "you qualify for this only if you do not have a Good alignment" and "you qualify for this if you have any alignment that isn't Good". In the latter case having the Evil subtype could qualify you even if you also do have a Good alignment, because you're simultaneously Good and non-Good. And I would tend to think that "any non-Good" points to the latter meaning.

Well logically being good and non-good at the same time doesn'tmake sense anyways, so it's pretty much up to the GM?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 03:24 PM
The best part of Succubi Paladins (well, one of them) is that their DR is tough to penetrate for evil creatures, since it requires a good weapon and evil creatures wielding one of those usually get a negative level or take damage.

Honestly, I would rule that in this case the 'effect' doesn't mean qualifying for PrC's or feats, just spells or class features that heal/do damage of have a buff or debuff. It doesn't make any sense that a lawful good succubus would want to take Assassin or Blackguard levels. You should qualify on the basis of your actual alignment alone.

Riffington
2008-09-26, 03:30 PM
It doesn't make any sense that a lawful good succubus would want to take Assassin or Blackguard levels. You should qualify on the basis of your actual alignment alone.

"actual alignment" is a funny phrase. But it certainly is likely that a good demon who takes a level in blackguard or assassin would suddenly cease to be good...

Frosty
2008-09-26, 03:36 PM
Although I coud see a good demon wanting to use assassination technique on other fiends, for example. I don't even agree that Assassins have to be evil.

kbk
2008-09-26, 03:38 PM
I played in a game that was designed around feeling like a RPG video game. Most of the players used savage species for their characters, and one of them played a Chaotic Good Incubus (succubus). He was therefore Lawful, Chaotic, Good, and Evil with the effect of spells, negative levels, and everything else.

We had some initial difficulty when we wanted to enlist the local church for help, as they were on consecrated ground. Paladins detected him as evil, and even though we were good, some of plot involved having to kill very narrow minded paladins, while trying to help out people who actually bothered to listen. Usually this involved a truth detection spell, or someone who could detect both evil and good. Once he showed up as both, they usually believed him.

We never tried to stack the effects in the way you list, but I'd recommend you fall back onto the general 3.5 rule on stacking. Which is: they don't.

Specifically, the bonuses are typed in the Protection spells. The AC bonus is deflection, and the save bonus is resistance. They won't stack.

PrC alignment requirements are requirements on alignment and NOT subtype. A good incubus can not take a prestige class that requires evil.

kamikasei
2008-09-26, 03:43 PM
Honestly, I would rule that in this case the 'effect' doesn't mean qualifying for PrC's or feats, just spells or class features that heal/do damage of have a buff or debuff. It doesn't make any sense that a lawful good succubus would want to take Assassin or Blackguard levels. You should qualify on the basis of your actual alignment alone.

Agreed. Ur-priest and Mindbender are out, being subject to both Holy Word and Blasphemy are in.

kbk
2008-09-26, 03:47 PM
Taken from SRD on the Evil subtype:


A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).


Yes those spells hurt, and yes, they get negative levels for both items. Just as if a good paladin wielded 2 evil swords. But if they say wielded a true neutral sword that bestowed negative levels on people who were evil or good, they'd only get one level.

Make sense?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 03:49 PM
Although I coud see a good demon wanting to use assassination technique on other fiends, for example. I don't even agree that Assassins have to be evil.

No! Assassins are bad evil people. No one good would ever be an Assassin. Nuh huh! What you're thinking of is Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). That's the killer class for nice people, Frosty. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2008-09-26, 03:54 PM
I cannot help but shout BIIIIIIIIIIRDMAN!

Every time I see that class linked to.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 05:08 PM
Agreed. Ur-priest and Mindbender are out, being subject to both Holy Word and Blasphemy are in.

So even though she has the Evil subtype Blasphemy still kicks in eh?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 05:50 PM
So even though she has the Evil subtype Blasphemy still kicks in eh?

I look at it as she's holy enough that Blasphemy damages her spiritual core and paladin powers. It works because she's trying to bring her moral fiber into phase with Lawful Goodness, and Blasphemy specifically targets that kind of energy.

The reason Holy Word works is that all demons are literally made of the stuff of the abyss, which is raw chaos and purest evil twisted into a physical form. So Holy word damages her body no matter how pure her spirit is because she's literally made of evil in the same way humans are made of meat. That's all fluff of course but it makes sense to me!

Frosty
2008-09-26, 05:56 PM
Oh yeah, and she also can't take Avenger. It says: any non-chaotic. She has the [chaotic] subtybe :smallannoyed:

Also, this begs the question: Do Demons have spirits/souls?

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 06:03 PM
Oh yeah, and she also can't take Avenger. It says: any non-chaotic. She has the [chaotic] subtybe :smallannoyed:

Also, this begs the question: Do Demons have spirits/souls?

Right, but she has a lawful good alignment which is non-chaotic. Her subtypes come into play for effects, and shouldn't really be used for feats or PrC requirements.

As far as the official answer, I suspect they do, but Outsiders have souls that are completely unified with their bodies. When you slay an outsider on it's native plane you need a true ressurection spell to bring it back because both body and soul where slain at the same moment. If you slay an outsider off it's native plane it automatically goes back to it's native plane to reform. The official D&D rules on souls are kinda flakey.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 06:15 PM
Obviously not completely unified with their bodies, or else how can this succubus's soul be Good but the body be Evil? also, it brings up the possibility that every time she is slain, the succubus gets sent back to the Abyss, which could mean Bad Things(tm) for her.

AstralFire
2008-09-26, 06:18 PM
Well, she'll just have to make like the rest of us and not die, then.

Seriously though, I think once you've become good enough to become a Paladin, any outsider with an alignment subtype should shift to [Lawful] (or [Chaotic] if they're doing Pally of Freedom or general Exalted stuff) and [Good] due to that whole soul/body link.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 06:23 PM
Well, she'll just have to make like the rest of us and not die, then.

Seriously though, I think once you've become good enough to become a Paladin, any outsider with an alignment subtype should shift to [Lawful] (or [Chaotic] if they're doing Pally of Freedom or general Exalted stuff) and [Good] due to that whole soul/body link.

RAW disagrees with you, but hten RAW might not have forseen an Exalted Demon. Hmm...I wonder if Ravages would still affect her?

AstralFire
2008-09-26, 06:25 PM
RAW disagrees with you, but hten RAW might not have forseen an Exalted Demon. Hmm...I wonder if Ravages would still affect her?

I was speaking from "what I think makes sense storywise" not "RAW." I am about as comfortable with discussions of RAW in 3E as I am with discussions of Rawhide, or WWF RAW IS WAR OR RAR OR WINRAR OR WINDSOR or whatever.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 07:03 PM
RAW disagrees with you, but then RAW might not have forseen an Exalted Demon. Hmm...I wonder if Ravages would still affect her?

Short answer: No, but not for the reason you might think.

Nothing in the Ravages section makes it possible for Ravages to penetrate succubus poison immunity. The closest BoED gets is saying that 'ravages and afflictions are particularly debilitating to evil outsiders, despite the immunity to poison that is common among such creatures' which is kind of insufficient to say that poison and disease immunity is bypassed. Not all outsiders are immune to poison, and Ravages and Afflictions do deal bonus damage to the evil outsiders not completely immune to poison and disease. What sucks is that it makes Ravages and Afflictions totally useless against undead!

And a given succubus can still be Afflicted, but a succubus paladin with Divine Health would be immune.

ericgrau
2008-09-26, 07:20 PM
A redeemed fiend still has has the [evil] subtype (and the [lawful] or[chaotic] subtype, depending on devil or demon), but has an actual alignment of Good.

If you have a redeemed Demon or Devil (so it now has a Good alignment), does it still qualify to take a class that requires a non-good alignment (such as Mindbender) or an evil alignment (such as Ur-Priest)?

Would it gain 2 negative levels if it wielded both a +1 holy weapon and a +1 unholy weapon?

Would enemies who have Protection from Evil and Protection from Good gain +4 AC and +4 to all saves against it?

Would, Blasphemy, Holy Word, Dictum, and Word of Chaos all work on a Lawful Good Demon?
1. Not sure, I'd do this one on a case-by-case basis. Generally I'd go by character alignment not creature alignment. Just my opinion, but it seems to make sense.
2. Yes, by the rule someone quoted. IIRC negative levels stack, but I could be wrong. Check the magic weapon rules.
3. No, it's only +2 total. Each spell grants the same bonus types (deflection and resistance IIRC) and same bonus types don't stack. Instead you use the higher of the 2 bonuses (higher of +2 & +2 is +2). But either spell would work on him per same rule in #2.
4. Yes, per same rule.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 07:50 PM
Short answer: No, but not for the reason you might think.

Nothing in the Ravages section makes it possible for Ravages to penetrate succubus poison immunity. The closest BoED gets is saying that 'ravages and afflictions are particularly debilitating to evil outsiders, despite the immunity to poison that is common among such creatures' which is kind of insufficient to say that poison and disease immunity is bypassed. Not all outsiders are immune to poison, and Ravages and Afflictions do deal bonus damage to the evil outsiders not completely immune to poison and disease. What sucks is that it makes Ravages and Afflictions totally useless against undead!

And a given succubus can still be Afflicted, but a succubus paladin with Divine Health would be immune.

I'm actually using Fax's paladin fix, so I might not be immune to disease afte rall, but with a good Fort progression, decent Con, and high Charisma, I should have a more than high enough Fort save to shrug most poisons off.

Tokiko Mima
2008-09-26, 08:27 PM
I'm actually using Fax's paladin fix, so I might not be immune to disease afte rall, but with a good Fort progression, decent Con, and high Charisma, I should have a more than high enough Fort save to shrug most poisons off.

Well, what I meant was Succubi are universally immune to Poison. They come from a section of the Abyss where everything is poisonous. Since a Ravage is a form of supernatural poison, you're immune to it. Afflictions are diseases so you need a disease immunity to shrug those off, which succubi don't have but the standard paladin does.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 08:53 PM
Does the Succubi have any restrictions on how much she can carry and what armor she can use to Fly? I'm thinking of equipping her with a suit if Full-Plate.

AstralFire
2008-09-26, 08:54 PM
Can't most things only fly in Light Armor/Load? Draconomicon or Races of the Dragon, I forget which (...I feel revulsed for even saying those words!) has feats to increase the load you can fly with.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 09:27 PM
I know that's the case with some creatures yes, but I'm not sure for demons.

Draken
2008-09-26, 09:34 PM
From the SRD:


Fly
A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.


That rules does not apply to the fly spell, which has it's own rule.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 09:39 PM
Thanks! Now, does my armor affect my Fly Speed? For example, if I have 60 fly speed normally and am wearing Plate Mail, is my fly speed reduced to 40 ft?

Draken
2008-09-26, 09:52 PM
There is no ruling on that. So I guess that if you can carry the stuff as light load you can fly at top speed.

Frosty
2008-09-26, 10:57 PM
Hey, I just found something neat. There is an enchantment called Easy Travel from the Magic Item Compendium. I can carry a medium load as if it were a light load. Now I can fly even if I carry more than 100 lbs.

kbk
2008-09-27, 07:41 AM
I look at it as she's holy enough that Blasphemy damages her spiritual core and paladin powers. It works because she's trying to bring her moral fiber into phase with Lawful Goodness, and Blasphemy specifically targets that kind of energy.

The reason Holy Word works is that all demons are literally made of the stuff of the abyss, which is raw chaos and purest evil twisted into a physical form. So Holy word damages her body no matter how pure her spirit is because she's literally made of evil in the same way humans are made of meat. That's all fluff of course but it makes sense to me!

You could argue this, but this is strictly against the rules. The subtype and demon powers are somewhat balanced because you are still vulnerable to good effects. Doing otherwise would be distinctly a house ruling. I would have no problems with such a ruling, but again, that's not how the SRD rules it.

Besides, I like the flavor. You've redeemed yourself and converted, but you fight your body or part of your essence or genetics or however you look at it. Great internal conflict there that fits with being hit by both types of effects. I beleive I described my experience with a redeemed incubus trying to convince paladins and good clerics that he wasn't evil.

kamikasei
2008-09-27, 07:52 AM
You could argue this, but this is strictly against the rules.

Uh, I think what you quoted is agreeing with both the rules and yourself - that a Lawful Good outsider with the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes is vulnerable to both Blasphemy and Holy Word, etc.

What Tokiko and myself are both saying is that this makes sense, but shouldn't apply to alignment prereqs for things like classes, where it's the actual alignment of the character that matters.

kbk
2008-09-27, 12:10 PM
Uh, I think what you quoted is agreeing with both the rules and yourself - that a Lawful Good outsider with the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes is vulnerable to both Blasphemy and Holy Word, etc.

What Tokiko and myself are both saying is that this makes sense, but shouldn't apply to alignment prereqs for things like classes, where it's the actual alignment of the character that matters.

It looked to me like he was arguing that blasphemy shouldn't effect them. I may have misinterpreted.

Well either way, I agree that they are effected by spells and negative levels and such, but you can't use the subtype to get into alignment restricted PrCs.

Frosty
2008-09-27, 01:30 PM
But they would also benefit from things like if there is a sword that says: This sword gets an additional +2/+2 if wielded by a non-evil character.

EvilElitest
2008-09-27, 01:57 PM
depends on the subtype
from
EE

Frosty
2008-09-27, 02:08 PM
The subtype is Evil and Chaotic and the alignment is Lawful and Good.

EvilElitest
2008-09-27, 02:23 PM
The subtype is Evil and Chaotic and the alignment is Lawful and Good.

i think there is an Sanctioned thing in BoED i think covers that, i'm not sure.
Other wise, we have a bit of a paragoze
from
EE

Frosty
2008-09-27, 02:29 PM
i think there is an Sanctioned thing in BoED i think covers that, i'm not sure.
Other wise, we have a bit of a paragoze
from
EE

No idea what Paragoze means.

AstralFire
2008-09-27, 02:32 PM
No idea what Paragoze means.

Paradox? /guess.

monty
2008-09-27, 02:33 PM
I would guess he meant paradox. But then, I'm terrible at guessing, so I could be wrong.