PDA

View Full Version : Selling Maps to PCs. How much should they cost?



Foolster41
2008-09-26, 02:23 AM
I'm working on a campaign, and I printed out a bunch of maps of varying correctness. My idea is to have shops where PCs can buy maps at various values, but I'm not sure what a base price should be for a perfectly accurite map.

I have a general idea of the order of accurcy of each map. I'm not sure it'll help, but here is more info on what each map has in the spoiler below.

The world is divided in to an orc country, two human countries, an elvin country, a dwarvin country, a smaller halfling country and a lizrdfolk country.

The maps are:

1: Accurate info on Orc and lizardfolk lands. Halflingland not marked. Swamp by lighthouse not marked.
2: No info on Orc or Lizardfolk lands. Halflingland smaller than real.
3: Only place in Orc land is stonke, and it's in wrong place. No info on Lizardfolk. Halflingland smaller than usual.
4: Only place in Orc land is stonke, and it's in wrong place. No info on lizardfolk. Halflingland is accurate.
5: Perfectly accurate.
My order is (from best to worst): 5,1,2,4,3

kbk
2008-09-26, 02:35 AM
Depends on the level range.

Maybe a fifth of the expected wealth of the group for the very best, and then have it fall sharply off as they get worse? 1/20th or so for the very poor ones? Of course, going off expected wealth doesn't give you a RP or realistic feel for the maps, especially at first level or high levels.

Personally, I like to have an RP reason they might get different maps, and maybe for the best they'd actually have to find a sage or something? Maybe it doesn't have a gold cost, but you have to help out the sage somehow?

Reinboom
2008-09-26, 02:42 AM
I also believe they should cost a quest.
Finding a map in the equipment of a fallen traveler long past that was accurate for that time, unfinished, and/or partially destroyed would be more interesting than a map salesman to me.
Or, getting a quest to finish a map from a perfectionist map-maker who is now too old to venture in to that one last area.

bosssmiley
2008-09-26, 03:55 AM
Quick answer: "What you got?"
Long answer: "Many lives were lost securing this information. How badly do you want it?"

Make the players decide for themselves how much a map of a dangerous frontier area (even one of dubious reliability) is worth to their characters. Have them make Appraise and Knowledge (Geography) checks to verify the accuracy of areas they know (if the seller allows them access to his precious map), but always bear in mind that they are essentially buying a pig in a poke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke).

You might want to do a little research on just how insanely valuable accurate maps were in a pre-modern society. Prince Henry the Navigator, Captain Cook, and the history of Admiralty Charts and the Ordinance Survey are all good starting points.

xPANCAKEx
2008-09-26, 09:04 AM
accurate maps will always cost more - especially if the fortress being mapped is full of high CR enemies/enemies with high Int

other things which would boost the cost:
guard movements
trap warnings
room descriptions

of course this wouldn't stop the enemy changing guard movements, or deciding after the last break in (when a map was made) that a certain hidden door button needs a good ole' coating of poison

Baidas Kebante
2008-09-26, 09:36 AM
I believe the accurate map should be priceless. As in, it's one of a kind and only a very important person has it. Most maps are usually inaccurate to some degree, and availability will depend on the seller's own expertise in the field. Because of this, price shouldn't really reflect accuracy. A professional map seller won't sell an inaccurate map, instead he or she would sell maps that are accurate to his or her own knowledge.

Maps should therefore be priced based on the method that the map seller attained the map itself. Copies of generally accepted maps would be very common and cheap, while maps that required someone to actually explore and map out the area would cost more. The more dangerous or distant the territory, the more it would cost - but then again, availability would also be greatly reduced (thus the idea that the accurate map would essentially be priceless).

Also, maps of "enemy territory" are usually not available to the common man (and thus not readily found by adventurers). These would only be owned and used by military groups, since no ordinary explorer would have need to go into such dangerous territory. Thus, they'd also probably not for sale in the traditional sense, and only given to adventurers that are somehow doing something that aids their needs.

Supagoof
2008-09-26, 09:39 AM
At what price is cheap enough for them to part with their gold but not so expensive that they'll kill the salesman and take the map anyway? :smallconfused: :smallamused:

xPANCAKEx
2008-09-26, 12:39 PM
map sellers would be wise to have bodyguards (who are inexplicably some of the best hired swords the world has to offer), and not to carry merchandise on them during initial price negotiations

Also - some sort of scrying going on during talks. If the PCs slay the trader, then his buddy whos scrying will alert all the authorities to their dastardly deeds... think of it as CCTV for the high fantasy world ;) The cost of this security will also go towards the high cost of the map. And have it so that the case with the map in has an acid vile/alchemists fire trap that has a rediculously high disable device DC that can only be disabled with a password that will be telepathically transmitted to the party an hour after the trade is made

all these options and many more are open to a DM.

of course only an evil person would murder a man for a map - so if the party is lawful, or have a loose cannon CN rogue, then you should be fine

its less about cost, more about making "the only way you'll get the map is by paying" a VERY obvious message

Mando Knight
2008-09-26, 03:33 PM
Obviously, they should only find maps to dungeons, and those only about a quarter of the way into the dungeon. Then they'll need to find a Compass to figure out where the stuff is, a Treasure to defeat the dungeon's BBEG, and the Big Key to open the door to its lair.:smallamused:

Seriously, though, a good cartographer won't sell a map he knows is flawed, an explorer won't sell information about his scouting mission into enemy territory to unauthorized civilians, and a cartographer who makes maps based on wild guesses is of no use at all.

Prometheus
2008-09-26, 03:42 PM
I say that if your PCs balk at the prices, have a much less reputable map seller or "guide" for prices that are a steal compared to that of the professional. If they take the bait, use it to reprimand their stinginess, but more likely than not that will buy the more expensive map because they believe that they are getting what they pay for (it's a law of RPGs) and they want an accurate map.

Foolster41
2008-09-26, 04:06 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.

I should note so far, the maps are all world maps and contain only major cities at best, no secret treasure holds or anything like that. There wasn't a planning office back then, like how the heroes of "sneakers" get their map. :D

I'm not sure maps this simple should warrant a quest. (Though quests for treasure maps, or maps to Mr. badguy's lair, or his fortress plans would.)

I guess what I was thinking was there were cartographers in the middle ages, and so would be some sort of cartographers to sell maps in my world. Also I kind of liked the idea of this shady guy selling bogus maps for too much money off the street somewhere. :D

I'm going to do some research on middle ages map costs vs. the economy and compare to D&D's Economy.

Pancake: I'm probity going to use the same protection of the cartographers as anyone else in the city- the city guard, though all but the rogue are lawful good, (he's chaotic good) and he's more likely to steal and run away than fight/kill.

Mario: ..And when they solve puzzles I'll go "do DO do do do do Do!" :D

monty
2008-09-26, 04:34 PM
Long answer: "Many lives were lost securing this information. How badly do you want it?"

If you do that, though, you have to say "Bothans."

only1doug
2008-09-26, 05:15 PM
Accurate world maps should be insanely expensive to make. (you need a trained professional to travel to various (dangerous) locations)

unless there is a mass copy/distribution network that would make a single copy very expensive.
the less accurate the map, the less hazard undergone in making it, the less cost.

ericgrau
2008-09-26, 07:13 PM
I'd figure out how much time the map maker's and/or scribes spent on it, then determine how much their time is worth. Then add the cost of ink & paper, if significant. If it's just a copy, then the cost will be mostly the cost of scribing a copy (which takes quite a while), though a % of the cost of making the first copy will add to that.

More accurate maps will most likely be made by people who charge more for their time. But bear in mind that measurements are made with paces, knots on rope, etc., and no map will be 100% accurate.

I'd use the wages for untrained laborers, trained laborers and/or the profession skill description (maybe assuming a modifier of 5 and a roll of 10) to help you determine what someone's time is worth. For the value of a serious adventurer's/explorer's time, I'd use the cost of hiring an equal level wizard to cast most of his spells per day. If the adventurer/explorer underwent significant personal risk, I'd ask "What level would he have to be to not face significiant personal risk?" and bump his level up to that level for the purpose of fees.

Yahzi
2008-09-26, 08:14 PM
I should note so far, the maps are all world maps and contain only major cities at best,
You want your players to look at your maps and admire them, right?

Then sell them for 1,000 gp. If you just give them away for free, the players won't think they're valuable. But if you charge outrageous fees for them, then the players will assume they must be incredibly important, and will pore over them looking for clues.

:smallbiggrin:

SeeKay
2008-09-26, 10:13 PM
Map costs? How long did the person/people gathering the info take to make the map (skilled labor)? How long did the person take to draw the map (skilled labor)? How unique is the map? If it's copied, don't forget to add the cost of the person that did the work. Now add the cost of the material the map is on.

A price around 1000 gp sounds right for a copied map by a skilled copier on something that will travel. It would cover about the distance of England and Ireland. It also assumes that the person gathering the info wasn't in major danger. If there was a big risk to the information gatherer(s) then this cost would shoot up.

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-26, 10:53 PM
Rapidly-thrown-together formula:

Price of map = (Knowledge (geography) modifier)^2 * 100.

Prob'ly way off. Just an idea.

Jim Profit
2008-09-26, 11:02 PM
Accuracy and stuff has little relevence to the price of goods. Afterall, this is just some random merchant selling maps. It's not like he's at the mercy of the FDA or something to make sure his work is honest and informative now, is he?


Sense there's no regulation on goods, there's no regulation on price. The price is whatever the PCs are willing to pay, and whatever the merchant can convince them to pay. I'm surprised haggle isn't a class skill.. Though I suppose some opposing diplomacy checks could do just as well.

Merchant: I have here a map of the orc lands, but I got a family to feed. So I'll give it to you for ten gold.

James: Ten gold?! Perposterous! That's practically robbery! I'll give you three gold. *Diplomacy check, fails*

Merchant: Do you take me for a fool?! A couple of travlers were willing to pay me twenty for this map! Ten gold!

Jim: Nuts to your gold! You'll give us the map or you'll never see your family again! *Uses shadow grasp on the merchant*

Merchant: Ack! Take it! Take the map! *Soils himself*

The Party: :smallannoyed:

Merchant: Hahaha! Suckers... the map was fake anyway!


Moral of the story: There's nothing wrong with robbing people and threatning to leave their kids without a daddy, they're probably taking you for chumps anyway.

Thane of Fife
2008-09-26, 11:20 PM
The way to find out is as follows:

Spread a rumor of a region in the world which no one has explored, but which everyone is interested in. Try to get the PCs to go for this plot hook. Subtly suggest that they might turn a tidy profit mapping the area.

Ideally, they will do so.

Watch to see how much they sell the map for. This is about the right price.

xPANCAKEx
2008-09-27, 12:11 PM
song and silence had the royal explorer class who delt specifically with mapping uncharted areas

might be worth resurecting that old Prc

BendakStarkiler
2008-09-27, 12:43 PM
I think the first thing to think about is the location of the map seller. Would a small town map seller even have maps outside of just the local region? let alone a perfect map of the entire known world? I think that maps of the level of perfection would or could only be in shops in possibliy the largest cities in your world.

I also agree with what most people have been saying about the expence of the knowledge to chart and area control by a hostle race like lizards, would that area even be chartable?

Good luck and let us know what you choose to do because I am thinking of giving maps out in my next game.

only1doug
2008-09-27, 01:18 PM
Plot Hook:

The King has hired a cartographer to map nearby mountain passes, he requires an escort to ensure his safety in the passes as there are rumours of goblins and worse.

Payment: gold or maps.

Foolster41
2008-09-27, 06:03 PM
theCount: Thank you, that is the sort of thing I was looking for. I'm going to try plugging in some numbers based on difficulty DCs for areas and see if it works, and I'll fiddle with it until it's what I want. It's a good place to start.

Suggestions for improvement on a formula or other general suggestions are welcome.

Here is what I came up with. I used (Knowledge (geography) modifier)^2 for each applicable category, and added 500 gp to the total. (So DC 30 + DC 20 = 1,800gp). Info on Orc and Lizardfolk I guessed as DC 30, Halfling lands and the location of the swap DC 15 and the existence of Tornado Island as DC 20. Incorrect information about the halfling lands I reduced by the cost of -10 DC, and orc lands DC -5. (Any map "wrong" about the orc lands has only one city marked, and it's marked as being a few miles north of where it really is.)

1: Accurate info on Orc and lizardfolk lands. Halflingland not marked. Swamp by lighthouse not marked. Worth 2,750gp.
2: No info on Orc or Lizardfolk lands. Halflingland smaller than real. Worth 400gp
3: Only place in Orc land is stonke, and it's in wrong place. No info on Lizardfolk. Halflingland smaller than usual. Worth 1,175gp.
4: Only place in Orc land is stonke, and it's in wrong place. No info on lizardfolk. Halflingland is accurate. Worth 1,250gp.
5: Perfectly accurate, except no info on lizardfolk. worth 2,600gp.
I'm thinking #5 may be for my own use and never available to the PCs, or at the very least very rare and may require a quest (helping out the cartographer perhaps.)


Feedback is welcome and encouraged.