Kubota and detect evil

[BaZeD]

Hello all!:smallsmile:

This is my first post here, though I've been reading this forum for quite a long time.

There are a lot of new threads concerning V's latest actions against Kubota and their moral applications.

I've been thinking about the problem myself and a new question has suddenly arised in my head - why do paladins need any kind of trial?!

I mean, lets look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) - I think that if Miko had found that Belkar is actually evil, she would've immediately attacked him and it would have been OK for her paladin codex, since fighting with evil is (in general) a good act.

I know, that Miko isn't the best example, but still - why do paladins need to carry on a trial in order to prove that someone is a bad guy, if they can simply cast "detect evil" on him?

It could have solved the problem with Kubota quite simply actually. Since Hinjo knew that there is a traitor among nobles, he could have just ordered to put them all through "detection" to find out who is evil - then no evidence of bad acts would have been required, since evil = evil and it is enough for a paladin I guess (Miko vs. Belkar again).

I'm sorry if this question has been asked before or if I'm missing smth here. And excuse me in advance for any language mistakes.:smalltongue:

[David Argall]

Properly there is such a thing as harmless evil, and evil that is more trouble to eliminate than it is worth. So a mere reading of Evil is not sufficient to justify attack.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Hello all!:smallsmile:

This is my first post here, though I've been reading this forum for quite a long time.

There are a lot of new threads concerning V's latest actions against Kubota and their moral applications.

I've been thinking about the problem myself and a new question has suddenly arised in my head - why do paladins need any kind of trial?!

I mean, lets look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) - I think that if Miko had found that Belkar is actually evil, she would've immediately attacked him and it would have been OK for her paladin codex, since fighting with evil is (in general) a good act.

I know, that Miko isn't the best example, but still - why do paladins need to carry on a trial in order to prove that someone is a bad guy, if they can simply cast "detect evil" on him?

It could have solved the problem with Kubota quite simply actually. Since Hinjo knew that there is a traitor among nobles, he could have just ordered to put them all through "detection" to find out who is evil - then no evidence of bad acts would have been required, since evil = evil and it is enough for a paladin I guess (Miko vs. Belkar again).

I'm sorry if this question has been asked before or if I'm missing smth here. And excuse me in advance for any language mistakes.:smalltongue:

The thing is...
evil <> guilty

and further...
chaotic <> random
lawful <> legal
good <> dumb

however it can get complicated...
evil + dragon + scales not all shiny like metal = OK to kill
evil + goblin + loot + in a dungeon = OK to kill

etc.

[Red XIV]

Hinjo was probably quite aware of Kubota's alignment being Lawful Evil. As a paladin, he would therefore have justification for killing Kubota, but that doesn't mean that as Lord of Azure City he'd be legally justified in doing so. All Detect Evil shows is that a character is Evil. It doesn't show what specific crimes they've committed, making its usefulness in this particular situation pretty much nonexistent.

[BaZeD]

Oh, ye - I totally understand the concept of harmless evil and "evil <> guilty" thing.

But still, in case of Kubota, the trick with detection would have been a more effective method than "20 or 30 strips of humorless drudgery". And I think that Kubota is an evil which is totally worth eliminating, since... well, he was sending ninjas to kill the leader of azurits (it's more than enough imho).

And it does not essentially deal with attack to be justified or guilt to be proved. As far as I know, paladins can't even be alined with evil creatures. So they could have possibly just dropped Kubota on the nearest island ant the case would've been over.:smallconfused:

[Atelm]

Considering that Kubota had a prestige-class which granted him the ability to fool magical lie-detection, it can be safely assumed that he had some method or another of fooling paladin evil-detection as well.

And let's not forget, Belkar managed to get the law on his side of avoiding Miko's detect evil. :smallwink:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html

[Laurentio II]

And it does not essentially deal with attack to be justified or guilt to be proved. As far as I know, paladins can't even be alined with evil creatures. So they could have possibly just dropped Kubota on the nearest island ant the case would've been over.:smallconfused:
The fact that Paladins don't work with Evil character doesn't means that they are allowed to send away every Evil person. The Azurite government is not held by paladin (not before Hinjo, at least), and has it's own law system. A law system, it's worth noting, that has been supported and managed by a corrupted noble cast, and is no way going to be allowed to discriminate people on the base of Alignment.

Obviously, Hinjo could refuse to deal with evil characters, but again, his hands are tied by the bound of ruleship.

[BaZeD]

And let's not forget, Belkar managed to get the law on his side of avoiding Miko's detect evil.

Ahaha! So true! If even Belkar managed to do it, then it would be no problem for clever LE character)

Besides, I think, I get the idea presented here:


Hinjo was probably quite aware of Kubota's alignment being Lawful Evil. As a paladin, he would therefore have justification for killing Kubota, but that doesn't mean that as Lord of Azure City he'd be legally justified in doing so. All Detect Evil shows is that a character is Evil. It doesn't show what specific crimes they've committed, making its usefulness in this particular situation pretty much nonexistent.

So, yes - though Hinjo IS a paladin, the most of azurits are NOT. And for them simply being evil is not bad enough itself, until you really commit some form of crime (wich should be proved of course). And since Hinjo is the Lord of AC, its laws are of higher priority than his own paladin views I guess (even if he knew that Kubota was evil).

Thanks for clearing it up for me!:smallsmile:

[BaZeD]

The fact that Paladins don't work with Evil character doesn't means that they are allowed to send away every Evil person. The Azurite government is not held by paladin (not before Hinjo, at least), and has it's own law system. A law system, it's worth noting, that has been supported and managed by a corrupted noble cast, and is no way going to be allowed to discriminate people on the base of Alignment.

Obviously, Hinjo could refuse to deal with evil characters, but again, his hands are tied by the bound of ruleship.

Yes - that's exactly how I see it now.:smallwink:

[SmartAlec]

Worth bearing in mind that Azure City is likely a lot older than the Sapphire Guard, so there city's laws weren't originally written with a caste of Paladins in mind. From the point of view of Azure City's nobility, the Sapphire Guard must seem like irritating newcomers to the political scene.

[Goofy]

Maybe he has an item that grants him the ability to fool detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm).

[Underground]

ROTFL

Yeah, why do Paladins need anything like a court ? :smallbiggrin: Just let them extinguish all life - then there will be no evil left for sure (*) ! :smallamused:

Thats only one of the logical problems of making a class that is not allowed to be evil in any way.

(*) = As every person except saints are at least a little bit evil, and as you dont have a court => there is no trial, therefore there is only one pentaly, therefore very likely the death penalty.

[Laurentio II]

ROTFL

Yeah, why do Paladins need anything like a court ? :smallbiggrin: Just let them extinguish all life - then there will be no evil left for sure (*) ! :smallamused
"Kill them all, and let God choose His owns"

[hamishspence]

In D&D, very very evil. I like fantasy equivalent in Mercedes Lackey's Storm Breaking:

"Save them all, and let god sort them out, for we have not the right to judge"

[bladesyz]

To the OP:

Would you qualify someone who ruthlessly manipulates others for his/her own gain, who would have no qualms about destroying someone's reputation, career, and/or family for his/her own advancement, all the while breaking no laws doing so, to be evil?

Would you condone executing that person just because you know he/she is a big time jerk?

Remember that Paladins are Lawful Good.

Even Lawful Neutrals would not do such a thing, because the idea of Justice is that the punishment must be in proportion to the act. Killing someone just because they're selfish and anti-social is not Justice.

[BaZeD]

ROTFL

Yeah, why do Paladins need anything like a court ? :smallbiggrin: Just let them extinguish all life - then there will be no evil left for sure (*) ! :smallamused:

Thats only one of the logical problems of making a class that is not allowed to be evil in any way.

(*) = As every person except saints are at least a little bit evil, and as you dont have a court => there is no trial, therefore there is only one pentaly, therefore very likely the death penalty.

Heh, your arguments would be absolutely right if you were speaking about the real world, but actually in D&D-universe it's theoretically possible to eliminate all evil beings, since all persons are considered either good/neutral/evil. And although they all have different characters (and yes, sure, they are almost all a little bit evil), technically there are only these three main positions on good-evil scale.

Of course, it's just an approximation caused by the D&D rules, but since OotS characters seem to know these rules, I was just wandering - why not to use them in a right moment if it's convenient (ye, say "Hello!" to V's logic:smallamused:).

Besides, you are talking about the court as it's restraining factor for uncontrollable paladin wrath.:smalltongue: My point was that paladins are quite reasonable persons (if they are not Miko, again). I just didn't get - why do they need trials to prove, that somebody is bad, if they can know it simply by looking at you, ans good\evil are objective terms.:smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

I think the phrase should be: Would you condone murdering person cos you know they are a jerk.

Execution is not evil in itself (not necessarily good, but not evil: Exalted Deeds)

Killing in self-defense is not evil (Exalted Deeds)

Killing to defend the lives of others is not evil when danger is immediate (Vile Darkness)

Murder is evil (Fiendish codex 2)

Either act was murder, in which case, Evil (unless you reject all "non core" WOTC sources.)

Or, act was not murder, in which case, whether it was evil or not depends on context.

[BaZeD]

Would you qualify someone who ruthlessly manipulates others for his/her own gain, who would have no qualms about destroying someone's reputation, career, and/or family for his/her own advancement, all the while breaking no laws doing so, to be evil?

Would you condone executing that person just because you know he/she is a big time jerk?

I would probably not even be bothering about him/her then). The problem here is that Kubota (and I was speaking primarly about kim) isn't just a man with possible intentions to do bad things for his advancement. He actually had ALREADY sent ninjas/sea trolls/whatever else several times to destroy Hinjo and probably many other people. And well, hiring someone to kill somebody - IS breaking the laws I guess.

You see, that's the point - I was not asking "why do not paladins kill everything that is possibly evil on the spot", I was asking "why not to use their abilities against Kubota, knowing he is the main bad guy in the current arc"

[hamishspence]

limited evidence. Now, if they caught K in the act, they would be entitled to kill him if he was threatening them, or anyone else. But once under arrest, self-defence justification expires.

[Mastikator]

Despite that Miko would have disagreed with me, being evil isn't a crime, and dispute that Miko would have disagreed with me, being concerned with the dignity of sentient beings, not just good, but all sentient beings, is a prerequisite of good.

Not to mention that it is blatantly chaotic to kill without a trial and conviction of actual crime. Paladins aren't just good, they're lawful.

Killing on sight/detect evil (and that alone) is chaotic evil, not lawful good.

[Fighteer]

Killing on sight/detect evil (and that alone) is chaotic evil, not lawful good.
Depending on circumstances, I might rule it Chaotic Neutral, but in general, killing without provocation should generally be considered an Evil act. Paladins are required to uphold a moral and ethical code, one tenet of which is giving quarter and another is showing mercy. At least, that's the general idea.

The idea that because alignment absolutes exist, it's possible (or even desirable) to slaughter anyone who detects as Evil regardless of provocation, is a horrible perversion of the ideals of Good and any Paladin subscribing to that philosophy (*cough* Miko) would sooner or later fall or at least suffer a terrible karmic fate.

(Minor War and XPs commentary spoiler)
Rich said in the commentary for War and XPs that Azure City (and specifically the Sapphire Guard) got its comeuppance in part because of the way it indiscriminately sent Paladins out to massacre goblin villages simply because they might be a threat to the Gates. In short, the Sapphire Guard in toto was acting like Miko - in classic Knight Templar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) style, and in doing so created the villain (Redcloak) who ended up being responsible for their destruction.

Good exists not just to kill Evil, but to set an example of the benefits of moral behavior. Good wins by converting Evil, not destroying it. Conversely, Evil wins by corrupting Good. You can't convert someone who's dead.

[Chronos]

OK, think back to your elementary school days. Remember the school bully, who would threaten you on the playground and steal your lunch money? That's evil. If a paladin scanned that bully, she'd see an evil kid. Now ask yourself, do you think that schoolyard bully deserves death?

The paladins surely know that Kubota's evil. But what they don't know is just how evil he is, and what fate he deserves. Certainly, they suspect him of treason, conspiracy, and a bunch of other really bad things, but suspicion isn't enough to kill someone over, either.

[Fighteer]

I was just reminded of a rather famous movie quote. To paraphrase:

"Take your weapon. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." ... "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the Dark Side shall be complete!"

Killing in anger; killing for revenge; those are Evil acts. Good characters kill out of necessity, not vengeance.

[Linkavitch]

It could have solved the problem with Kubota quite simply actually. Since Hinjo knew that there is a traitor among nobles, he could have just ordered to put them all through "detection" to find out who is evil - then no evidence of bad acts would have been required, since evil = evil and it is enough for a paladin I guess (Miko vs. Belkar again).


Yeah, well, Miko was a paladin to the infinity-th degree. Hinjo is. . .not. If Miko had been in control of the paladins, (scary)that's exactly what would of happened.

[Eric]

I was just reminded of a rather famous movie quote. To paraphrase:

"Take your weapon. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant." ... "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey toward the Dark Side shall be complete!"

Killing in anger; killing for revenge; those are Evil acts. Good characters kill out of necessity, not vengeance.

Apparently for some people, it's Evil to kill if you haven't spend forty years trying to find out if that is *really deserved*.

:smallfrown: