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NobleSavage
2008-09-27, 12:14 AM
Really quickly, I've been wondering as of late if there was anything redeemable about this class. Does a dip or two give you anything interesting to work with? Not necessarily combat related, anything will do, really. Would it pair with anything in a gestalt game? How about a cohort? Perhaps he retrieves hard to obtain spells for his wizard friend, would it be worth it?

MisterSaturnine
2008-09-27, 12:18 AM
According to some, there is plenty that's redeemable about the class. Although I have never played one and know little about them, our conquering hero has returned. Before He left, He graced us with this guide: Jack-Of-All-Trades: Fax Celestis' Guide to Spellthieves (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).

The_Snark
2008-09-27, 12:31 AM
The only problem with Fax's guide that I can see is that it ignores how few spells per day the spellthief gets. He says, for example, that you can drop Hide and Move Silently in favor of Invisibility and Silence (which has to come from a wand), but not only does this mean you won't be stealthy until level 8 (or a little earlier if you're burning charges from a wand), it means you can only do it once or twice a day. More if you rely on wands and UMD, but in that case, the spellcasting's not really doing anything for you, is it?

Not to mention that Silence, while a good spell, is very dubious for actually sneaking up on people; the sudden utter quiet when you get within 20 feet of them is a heavy hint that something is wrong.

Aside from that, though, I like most of his strategies, and in some games, spellthieves can get along fine: Steal Spell Effect is incredibly effective if you ever face magic-using enemies. And if you're looking for a way to make a spellthief dip good, look no further than the Master Spellthief feat.

(I also dislike relying on Use Magic Device, but that's just a personal distaste for the monumental amount of record-keeping, cost-calculating, and book-searching that using it well entails, not any sort of denial that it can be effective.)

Kurald Galain
2008-09-27, 04:33 AM
I think the best usage of spellthief is going Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer. Then use the Master Spellthief feat to keep the ST abilites up to par.

Aneantir
2008-09-27, 08:21 AM
As far as Gestalt goes:

Spelthief 20//Wizard+Full Casting Prestige Classes 20

If you take the Master Spelthief feat from complete scoundrel, you get a caster level = to your level x2. Spell resistance no longer exists to you, and you get silly long spell length.

kamikasei
2008-09-27, 08:26 AM
As far as Gestalt goes:
...
If you take the Master Spelthief feat from complete scoundrel, you get a caster level = to your level x2.

As far as Gestalt goes, if you try to take a feat geared towards bringing multiclassed characters back up to scratch and use it to get a benefit like "double caster level", the DM is liable to hunt down and kill everyone and everything you ever loved, using sporks. Don't do it.

That is about as good an argument for Spellthief as a class as "if you take it on one side of a Gestalt, Mystic Theurge gets you full casting in one class and full + X casting in another" is for MT.

Aneantir
2008-09-27, 08:31 AM
As far as Gestalt goes, if you try to take a feat geared towards bringing multiclassed characters back up to scratch and use it to get a benefit like "double caster level", the DM is liable to hunt down and kill everyone and everything you ever loved, using sporks. Don't do it.

That is about as good an argument for Spellthief as a class as "if you take it on one side of a Gestalt, Mystic Theurge gets you full casting in one class and full + X casting in another" is for MT.

I'm aware. But he asked for viable gestalt pairings with him, so I gave him that. I've also been allowed to use it in one of the gestalt games I played in, but the campaign was considered to be very high powered and the DM was linient, so I suppose thats not exactly a fair comparison.

kamikasei
2008-09-27, 08:34 AM
I'm aware. But he asked for viable gestalt pairings with him, so I gave him that.

Oh hey, he did too, I missed that. But yeah, I doubt he'd get away with it in a real game. Yours must have been... amusing.

Aneantir
2008-09-27, 08:39 AM
Oh hey, he did too, I missed that. But yeah, I doubt he'd get away with it in a real game. Yours must have been... amusing.

Yes, yes it was :smalltongue:

It started at level 10, and the initial party makeup ended up looking something like:

Spellthief 10//Wizard 3/Master Specialist 7
Warblade 10//Half-Ogre (2)/Half-Dragon (3)/Mineral Warrior (1)/Fighter 4
Artificer 10//Factotum 5/Chameleon 5
Scout 10//Crusader 5/Dervish 5

It got quite silly.

Epinephrine
2008-09-27, 11:44 AM
I think the best usage of spellthief is going Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer. Then use the Master Spellthief feat to keep the ST abilites up to par.

This doesn't really advance your Spellthief abilities - only the level of spell you can steal. It doesn't allow you to steal spell effects, spell-like abilities, resistances, spell resistance, absorb spells, the ability to discover spells, to use arcane sight...

Really, all it does is give a really limited blind spell steal ability. Real spelltheives do so much more.

Chronos
2008-09-27, 12:09 PM
This doesn't really advance your Spellthief abilities - only the level of spell you can steal.And it doesn't even do that very well: You can steal high level spells, but you can only hold onto one spell level to re-cast them (the limit is one spell level per class level, and Master Spellthief doesn't increase that). So you're more of a spell-vandal than a spellthief: You can deny others their high-level spells, but you can't use them yourself. Really, the only use for Master Spellthief is if you have a whole bunch of different spellcasting classes, and you want a high caster level in all of them (since it makes them all stack).

There are three things the Spellthief has going for it: One, you get a smidgen of your own spellcasting. But it's too little, too late to really make a difference. Two, you have basically the same abilities as a rogue, but none of them quite as good: You have fewer skill points, a shorter skill list, and less Sneak Attack. Three, of course, there's the whole stealing spells thing. If you end up seeing a lot of spellcasters in your game (within your party or as enemies), that can be very useful (you can, for instance, deliver two of your wizard's highest-level spells in the first round of combat, instead of the single one the wizard can do on his own). If you don't see a lot of spellcasters, though, you might as well just play a rogue.

Kurald Galain
2008-09-27, 12:45 PM
And it doesn't even do that very well: You can steal high level spells, but you can only hold onto one spell level to re-cast them (the limit is one spell level per class level, and Master Spellthief doesn't increase that).

The point of a spellthief/wizard/unseen seer build is not so much the spellstealing, but the combination of touch attack spells + sneak attack dice. Assuming you'll be using this trick as your main modus operandi, being able to deny an enemy some kind of spell on a hit is fun. Furthermore, this grants you the ability to cast in armor. It's not uber or anything but it's nice to have.

I've also seen it argued (including by CustServ, not that that's saying much) that stealing and re-casting spells is the same ability by RAI, and that the feat adds to that whole ability. YMMV on that, of course.

Epinephrine
2008-09-27, 01:07 PM
There are three things the Spellthief has going for it: One, you get a smidgen of your own spellcasting. But it's too little, too late to really make a difference. Two, you have basically the same abilities as a rogue, but none of them quite as good: You have fewer skill points, a shorter skill list, and less Sneak Attack. Three, of course, there's the whole stealing spells thing. If you end up seeing a lot of spellcasters in your game (within your party or as enemies), that can be very useful (you can, for instance, deliver two of your wizard's highest-level spells in the first round of combat, instead of the single one the wizard can do on his own). If you don't see a lot of spellcasters, though, you might as well just play a rogue.

I'll agree - I think it's a fine class, with a really interesting set of abilities, but it's underpowered. I think even just boosting the casting a bit would help a lot - maybe use the Mystic Ranger's spell advancement (ignoring cantrips) or something (well, it's hard to tell, but having the same spell advancement as a ranger or hexblade, without full BAB and big hitdice, and lacking a full sneak attack feels a little too tight).

Fax Celestis
2008-09-27, 04:00 PM
I'll agree - I think it's a fine class, with a really interesting set of abilities, but it's underpowered. I think even just boosting the casting a bit would help a lot - maybe use the Mystic Ranger's spell advancement (ignoring cantrips) or something (well, it's hard to tell, but having the same spell advancement as a ranger or hexblade, without full BAB and big hitdice, and lacking a full sneak attack feels a little too tight).

I've found using the Duskblade's spells-per-day in place of the existing halfcasting spells-per-day on the Spellthief to be a decent replacement.