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Atanuero
2008-09-27, 08:53 PM
Ok, so to better explain the alignment system to people in my school wh oare new to tabletop RP, my friend and I are trying to match a well-known character from a movie, book or game to each alignment. So far we have:

Lawful Good: Batman (movies version). It may not be an exact fit, but it has the benefit of making people interested in playing this alignment instead of writing it off as goody-two-shoes.

Lawful Neutral: We tentatively said King Leonidas from 300, whom we see as the LN ruler of a LE society. We're not sure if this is the best option, but it's the only one we've come up with.

Lawful Evil: Emperor Palpatine. No way he fits into anything else.

Neutral Good: My friend suggests (the movies version of) Wolverine. I don't really see how, I think he's True Neutral.

True Neutral: Achilles from the Troy movie (in Homer's work, he actually cares about things), because all he thinks about really is fighting and strangers knowing his name.

Neutral Evil: Here we can't really come up with anything, due to our fundamental inability to understand what sort of person a NE character would have to be, because an a-hole who just wants to see others suffer would fit more into Chaotic Evil, while almost every other sort of villain would fit into Lawful Evil.

Chaotic Good: My friend said it should be V (the For Vendetta variety), but I disagree because to me his core beliefs seem to be Neutral Good, and his methods a bit too dark to be Good, so maybe he's TN leaning towards NG, or TN leaning towards CN or diagonally towards CG. Hard case to judge.

Chaotic Neutral: Jack Sparrow. Seems a pretty perfect match.

Chaotic Evil: Joker, from Dark Knight. Also seemingly a perfect fit.

So, I'm asking for help completing and improving this list for great benefit of glorious game of D&D. Thanks :smallsmile:

Dode
2008-09-27, 09:02 PM
Page 108 – The Nine Alignments [Substitution]
Names like “Lawful Good” and “Chaotic Neutral” are so generic and boring. Strike all alignment names and replace accordingly:
Lawful Good: Superman
Neutral Good: Picard
Chaotic Good: Indiana
Lawful Neutral: Adama
Neutral: Unaligned (you’re still boring)
Chaotic Neutral: Jayne
Lawful Evil: Vader
Neutral Evil: Bender
Chaotic Evil: Mearls
+
New Alignment: Batman
Thus, a character would now say, “I am of the Mearls aligment” or “Batman alignment”.
This might be my favorite update WoTC has ever made

Jim Profit
2008-09-27, 09:02 PM
Actually I'd say Palpatine should be in the neutral evil category. Vader was more lawful evil.

Yes, Palpatine orchastrated the entire empire, but it wasn't "to save the galaxy", nor was it fueled by pride, alienation, and misinformation like Anakin. Just selfishness and doing it for the lulz.

Chaotic evil intent. Lawful evil result. And generally he carried out his plans in a neutral evil way. He didn't give a damn about the rules, but didn't break them blatantly enough to be seen as a criminal. Using people's fear and ignorance to exploit the system and break it's rules with or without their knowledge.


Han Solo was suppose to be chaotic neutral. But they railroaded his character so much and ret-conned half of what he did/said in the "digitally remastered" versions that he became a sissy chaotic to neutral good.

Atanuero
2008-09-27, 09:12 PM
Actually I'd say Palpatine should be in the neutral evil category. Vader was more lawful evil.

Yes, Palpatine orchastrated the entire empire, but it wasn't "to save the galaxy", nor was it fueled by pride, alienation, and misinformation like Anakin. Just selfishness and doing it for the lulz.

Chaotic evil intent. Lawful evil result. And generally he carried out his plans in a neutral evil way. He didn't give a damn about the rules, but didn't break them blatantly enough to be seen as a criminal. Using people's fear and ignorance to exploit the system and break it's rules with or without their knowledge.


Han Solo was suppose to be chaotic neutral. But they railroaded his character so much and ret-conned half of what he did/said in the "digitally remastered" versions that he became a sissy chaotic to neutral good.Why does being LE require 'pride, alienation, and misinformation'? Palpatine's actions weren't chaotic in any way, he just had an obsessive, incurable lust for power. He took the galaxy for his own and reworked it with a legal system to meet his evil ends. His gain of power was an end, not a means, which is a Lawful trait imo.

Ganurath
2008-09-27, 09:18 PM
From pages 8-9 of Complete Scoundrel:

Scoundrels of Any Alignment:
Lawful Good: Batman, ((Richard)) Tracy, Indiana Jones
Lawful Neutral: James Bond, Odysseus, Sanjuro
Lawful Evil: Boba Fett, Magneto
Neutral Good: Zorro, Spider-Man
Neutral: Lara Croft, Han Solo (when he shot first,) Lucy Westerna
Neutral Evil: Mystique, Sawyer
Chaotic Good: Malcolm Reynolds, Starbuck, Robin Hood
Chaotic Neutral: Captain Jack Sparrow, Al Swearengen, Snake Plissken
Chaotic Evil: Carl Denham, Riddick

snoopy13a
2008-09-27, 09:22 PM
LG: Superman
NG: Spiderman
CG: Robin Hood
LN: Jack McCoy from Law and Order
N: Frasier Crane
CN: Kramer from Seinfeld
LE: Michael Corleone from The Godfather
NE: Jabba the Hutt
CE: The Joker

snoopy13a
2008-09-27, 09:25 PM
Han Solo was suppose to be chaotic neutral. But they railroaded his character so much and ret-conned half of what he did/said in the "digitally remastered" versions that he became a sissy chaotic to neutral good.

He was chaotic neutral in the beginning of the first movie. However, he changed to chaotic good as he went from being a selfish smuggler to a member of the Rebel Alliance. Lando also changed alignment from a probable true neutral to neutral good. Luke and Leia are either Lawful Good or Neutral Good. Luke may shift from a more neutral good towards a lawful good with all the jedi training during the trilogy.

For prequel characters, Padme is Lawful Good as is likely Obi-Wan and Yoda. I'd put Qui-Gonn as Chaotic Good and Mace Windu as Lawful Neutral. I'd say Anakin starts off as a sort of Neutral Good and changes to Lawful Evil over time. Jar-Jar seems neutral good as well. Personally, I'd have the Emperor as Lawful Evil.

Zocelot
2008-09-27, 09:49 PM
. Luke may shift from a more neutral good towards a lawful good with all the jedi training during the trilogy.


What?!? At most he did an few days of training, then POOF! he was a jedi.

TheCountAlucard
2008-09-27, 09:52 PM
...Lawful Good as is likely Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Eh, I'd say Yoda is Neutral Good.

chiasaur11
2008-09-27, 10:00 PM
Captain America: Lawful Good
Captain Marvel: Neutral Good
Captain Mal Reynolds: Chaotic Good
Captain Atom (When poorly written): Lawful Neutral

The Captain: Chaotic Neutral
Captain Nazi: Lawful Evil
Captain Hammer: Neutral Evil
Captain Hero: Chaotic Evil

Anyone have suggestions for the missing spot?

Doresain
2008-09-27, 10:48 PM
lawful good: superman
neutral good: the flash
chaotic good: spiderman

lawful neutral: judge dredd
true neutral: fred lou
chaotic neutral: deadpool

lawful evil: lex luthor
neutral evil: starscream
chaotic evil: alex delarge (while the joker fits perfectly, i wanted to mention someone else)

Pronounceable
2008-09-27, 11:14 PM
You know, I really love these "alignment assingment" kind of lists. There was one with animals a while ago...

LG: Superman (Batman is no LG, see any comic they're both in, and we have a LOT of interesting LG characters anyway), Captain America, Daredevil, all the main cast in LotR, Sturm Brightblade, Lisa Simpson, Hartigan (only actually "good" main character from SinCity), Prof X, Cyclops, Jim Gordon, Mr Spock, Jim Raynor, Tassadar, Ned Flanders, Mace Windu, Master Splinter, King Arthur and co.

NG: Spidey (he's a goody two shoes, through and through), Asterix, Lucky Luke, average cartoon hero from 80s, Yoda, Obi Wan

CG: Robin Hood, Indiana Jones, Fred Flintstone, your average action hero, Qui Gon, Han Solo (the one who'd shoot second, if he lived)

LN: Batman (hard to pin, but fits here best), Punisher, Ozymandias (a very interesting case of LG gone wrong)

N: Most of us real people

CN: Jack Sparrow (might as well be the incarnation of CNity, especially in 1st), major characters from SinCity, Homer Simpson, Bart Simpson, V, traditional Hulk, Carmen Sandiego, Han Solo (original starting)

LE: Darth Vader, Palpatine, Sauron, most Bond villains, Magneto, Dr Doom, Mr Burns, Strahd, Lord Soth, Shredder, list goes on and on...

NE: Grubber bros, Dalton bros, Long John Silver, Arcturus Mengsk, Kitiara, Jaws (don't no one tell me it was just an animal), Cartman, Gargamel, Teletubbies, Morgan LeFay, Smaug, average cartoon badguy from 80s

CE: Joker (obviously), Hannibal Lecter, Freddy Krueger, Queen of Hearts (of Wonderland), Sarah Kerrigan, the gremlins, Roark family (all of them), LotR orcs, another list that doesn't end anytime soon...

Starbuck_II
2008-09-27, 11:17 PM
What?!? At most he did an few days of training, then POOF! he was a jedi.

That was a Montage. Even Rocky had one of those.

Moff Chumley
2008-09-27, 11:21 PM
Feh, why bother? All anyone is gonna want to play is Jack Sparrow, anyhow. (Sleep deprivation+desperate need to be liked=stupid posts.)

drengnikrafe
2008-09-28, 12:32 AM
*Gigantic List*

That..... is a very complete (or at least perfectly sufficient) list... I'm impressed. I'd argue that Raynor leans towards NG, with LG tendancies, but it's been a really long time since I played, and my memory is foggy.

Breaw
2008-09-28, 01:11 AM
Ok, so to better explain the alignment system to people in my school wh oare new to tabletop RP, my friend and I are trying to match a well-known character from a movie, book or game to each alignment. So far we have:

Lawful Good: Batman (movies version). It may not be an exact fit, but it has the benefit of making people interested in playing this alignment instead of writing it off as goody-two-shoes.

Lawful Neutral: We tentatively said King Leonidas from 300, whom we see as the LN ruler of a LE society. We're not sure if this is the best option, but it's the only one we've come up with.

Lawful Evil: Emperor Palpatine. No way he fits into anything else.

Neutral Good: My friend suggests (the movies version of) Wolverine. I don't really see how, I think he's True Neutral.

True Neutral: Achilles from the Troy movie (in Homer's work, he actually cares about things), because all he thinks about really is fighting and strangers knowing his name.

Neutral Evil: Here we can't really come up with anything, due to our fundamental inability to understand what sort of person a NE character would have to be, because an a-hole who just wants to see others suffer would fit more into Chaotic Evil, while almost every other sort of villain would fit into Lawful Evil.

Chaotic Good: My friend said it should be V (the For Vendetta variety), but I disagree because to me his core beliefs seem to be Neutral Good, and his methods a bit too dark to be Good, so maybe he's TN leaning towards NG, or TN leaning towards CN or diagonally towards CG. Hard case to judge.

Chaotic Neutral: Jack Sparrow. Seems a pretty perfect match.

Chaotic Evil: Joker, from Dark Knight. Also seemingly a perfect fit.

So, I'm asking for help completing and improving this list for great benefit of glorious game of D&D. Thanks :smallsmile:


If I can make a suggestion, don't pick characters from specific movies. If you are setting up classic archetypes, then pick classic archetype characters. If the various media that the character has appeared in has conflicting alignment in you opinion... best not to pick that character.

Riffington
2008-09-28, 01:47 AM
Captain America: Lawful Good
Captain Marvel: Neutral Good
Captain Mal Reynolds: Chaotic Good
Captain Atom (When poorly written): Lawful Neutral

The Captain: Chaotic Neutral
Captain Nazi: Lawful Evil
Captain Hammer: Neutral Evil
Captain Hero: Chaotic Evil

Anyone have suggestions for the missing spot?

How about Tennille?

sonofzeal
2008-09-28, 02:07 AM
Captain Hammer is clearly Lawful Evil. Dr Horrible's Sing Along Blog was about (among other things) the title character being strongly chaotic, and associating chaos and evil to the extent that he believes that he MUST be evil as well, when he clearly isn't at all. Dr Horrible is a CG who believes he's CE; Captain Hammer, by contrast, is a LE that believes he's LG. Both are stuck in the "chaos=evil" mentality, and the social construct they've mutually created of heroes and villains, that neither can see how it's violating their true natures.

So yeah. Captain Hammer. Lawful Evil. Dig it.

NeoVid
2008-09-28, 04:11 AM
I've always seen Dirty Harry as an example of CG. Right up there with Robin Hood for doing what's necessary to help people with no regard for rules or regulations.

I'm surprised Eastwood hasn't come up at all yet, in fact....

The Man With No Name seems like a major example of Neutral, now that I think of it.

Klaz Eidron
2008-09-28, 08:55 AM
A videogame version...

Lawful Good: Cecil (The paladin)
Neutral Good: Mario
Chaotic Good: Solid Snake (Post-MGS, at least...)
Lawful Neutral: Cecil (The dark knight)
True Neutral: Any minor NPC citizen in any RPG ever
Chaotic Neutral: Guybrush Threepwood
Lawful Evil: The Master (From Fallout)
Neutral Evil: Eggman
Chaotic Evil: Kefka

Fishy
2008-09-28, 10:07 AM
Heroes Season One!

Lawful Good: Hiro Nakamura
Chaotic Good: Peter Petrelli
Lawful Neutral: Nathan Petrelli
Chaotic Neutral: Jessica/Niki Sanders
Lawful Evil: Sylar
Chaotic Evil: Ted Sprague

I don't know how you'd do the Neutral axis, but then I never do.

Asbestos
2008-09-28, 11:38 AM
Lawful Evil: Sylar

Say whaaaaa? Linderman is LE, Sylar is like... NE or something.

bibliophile
2008-09-28, 11:42 AM
Hmmm....

I only have one example to list.

Lawful Evil: Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, An unquestionably evil man who asserts his power through economics and politics. He rarely lies (although that's more because the BG witches than anything else), and lives by playing his foes against each other and backstabbing. He uses the Law to maintain and assert control.

sonofzeal
2008-09-28, 12:11 PM
From Chrono Trigger...

Lawful Good: Frog
Neutral Good: Chrono
Chaotic Good: Marle

Lawful Neutral: King Guardia XXXIII
True Neutral: Fiona (druid-girl who replants forest)
Chaotic Neutral: Kino (Ayla's luvah-boi)

Lawful Evil: Queen Zeal
Neutral Evil: Lavos
Chaotic Evil: Flea

Chronos
2008-09-28, 12:29 PM
Anyone have suggestions for the missing spot?How about Cap'n Crunch?

Siegel
2008-09-28, 12:37 PM
Say whaaaaa? Linderman is LE, Sylar is like... NE or something.

Sylar ? " I am the next step of evolution und must kill all the others to strengh my powers " Sylar ? He is Chaotic Evil i would say. He doesn't care for any authorotys. He kills normal people if he has to or let them suffer at least.

snoopy13a
2008-09-28, 12:51 PM
How about Cap'n Crunch?

Chaotic Tasty

chiasaur11
2008-09-28, 01:33 PM
How about Cap'n Crunch?

I figure he's a heroic type.

He and Spidey are tight.

Glyde
2008-09-28, 02:15 PM
This might be my favorite update WoTC has ever made

JAYNE IS EVIL.

Roderick_BR
2008-09-28, 03:17 PM
That was a Montage. Even Rocky had one of those.
... great, now I got the Eye of The Tiger playing in my head! :smallsigh:

But yeah, I think most of these lists are good. You could actually put lots of characters together to show the differences even between characters with the same alignment to avoid the "straight jacket" argument early.

Aquillion
2008-09-28, 03:53 PM
JAYNE IS EVIL.
I don't know if I agree. He's mercenary, certainly, but working for the highest bidder doesn't make you evil. A soldier of fortune who changes sides whenever they're offered more gold is chaotic neutral, not chaotic evil. What has he done that doesn't fall under "go for the most money?"

(He also felt guilty at Jaynestown. A seriously evil character would not have felt that.)

Riffington
2008-09-28, 03:55 PM
There's a pretty big difference between a mercenary and a traitor.

Also, it is true that many evil people do good deeds - especially when others are applauding them.

Aquillion
2008-09-28, 03:55 PM
There's a pretty big difference between a mercenary and a traitor.
No, there is not. Not in this case.

Yeah, yeah, we're conditioned to say that selling out your friends is evil. But Jayne didn't consider them friends; he's just a mercenary going where the money is (as he's made it completely clear he'd do all along.) It seemed horrible to us because it would have hurt main characters that we cared about, but it was clearly a chaotic neutral act, not an evil one.
Treason itself is a morally neutral act in the D&D good-evil alignment system. It is extremely chaotic, not evil.

Riffington
2008-09-28, 04:01 PM
Treason itself is a morally neutral act in the D&D good-evil alignment system. It is extremely chaotic, but whether it's evil or not depends on who you're betraying and your reasons for doing it.

Agreeing to take on a duty - but then betraying your employer when another offer appears - is evil. In D&D, on Earth, wherever.

Aquillion
2008-09-28, 04:04 PM
Agreeing to take on a duty - but then betraying your employer when another offer appears - is evil. In D&D, on Earth, wherever.Maybe on earth (I assume you're fairly Lawful, in D&D terms, so of course you'd feel that way), but not in D&D:

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.Nothing about keeping your word or fulfilling your duty.

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. Ergo, a chaotic neutral character is perfectly free to take your money and run, or take a better offer from the other side. It's not inherently evil at all, by the D&D definitions.

More:

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.Betraying your employer is (on its own) a chaotic act and not an evil one.

Tamburlaine
2008-09-28, 04:14 PM
I can do all the alignments with one iconic character:
(warning: really big image) link (http://kundor.org/pub/batman-alignment.jpg) if you prefer
http://kundor.org/pub/batman-alignment.jpg

Riffington
2008-09-28, 04:29 PM
Nothing about keeping your word or fulfilling your duty.


Nor about sex with toddlers - but I assure you that is evil as well.

RebelRogue
2008-09-28, 04:51 PM
I can do all the alignments with one iconic character:
(warning: really big image) link (http://kundor.org/pub/batman-alignment.jpg) if you prefer
http://kundor.org/pub/batman-alignment.jpg
Haha! I really like this! :smallbiggrin:

Shadow_Elf
2008-09-28, 05:24 PM
Here is a few Fire Emblem examples:
Lawful Good: Prince Pelleas
Neutral Good: Soren
Chaotic Good: Nearly everyone (but Ike and Sothe are prime examples)
Lawful Neutral: Dheginsea
True Neutral: Black Knight
Chaotic Neutral: Naesala
Lawful Evil: Duke Lekain
Neutral Evil: General Petrine
Chaotic Evil: King Ashnard

snoopy13a
2008-09-28, 05:41 PM
Betraying your employer is (on its own) a chaotic act and not an evil one.

It depends whether or not the betrayl leads to oppression and pain towards the person(s) one betrayed. If so, it is chaotic and evil.

Jayne knew that bringing in the Tams would lead to suffering for the both of them. Thus, there's support for it being an evil, as well as chaotic, act.

Picking someone's pocket is likely a chaotic act. However, robbing someone of their life savings is both chaotic and evil. Quitting a job without giving two weeks notice and joining a competitor is a chaotic act. Stealing the secret recipe of the company to present to your new employer, resulting in your old company to going out of business and causing the loss of thousands of jobs would be both chaotic and evil act.

Beleriphon
2008-09-28, 05:44 PM
DC Comics

LG: Superman
NG: Nightwing
CG: Green Arrow
LN: Penguin
TN: The Guardians of the Galaxy
CN: Guy Gardener
LE: Lex Luthor
NE: Ras al'Ghul
CE: The Joker

Marvel Comics

LG: Captain America
NG: Spider-Man
CG: Nightcrawler
LN: Iron Man
TN: Oatu, The Watcher
CN: Dead Pool
LE: Doctor Doom
NE: Apocalypse
CE: Sabretooth

AslanCross
2008-09-28, 05:53 PM
Anime examples:

LG: Kenshin Himura (Rurouni Kenshin), Suzaku Kururugi (Code Geass)

NG: Guy Shishio (GaoGaiGar), Kallen Stadtfelt (Code Geass)

CG: Kamina (Gurren-Lagann. To the hilt. Actually, pretty much all of Gurren-Lagann's cast is CG.), Son Goku (Dragonball)

LN: Saito Hajime (Rurouni Kenshin), Rossiu (rare exception from Gurren Lagann), Gilbert P. Guilford (Code Geass), Jeremiah Gottwald (Code Geass, especially in R2. He was LE then CE in season 1.)

N: Lelouch Lamperouge (Code Geass. He struck me as NE at the beginning, but considering how the series has ended, I don't have a clue what his alignment is anymore.), Shinji Ikari (Evangelion)

CN: Haruhi Suzumiya.

LE: Charles di Britannia, along with most of Britannia's nobles (Code Geass), Lord Genome (Gurren Lagann), The Anti-Spiral (Gurren Lagann)

NE: Grace O'Connor (Macross Frontier), Keel Lorenz (Evangelion)

CE: Luciano Bradley (Code Geass), Reiji Kageyama (Gatekeepers)

snowbard55
2008-09-28, 06:22 PM
Following the Anime example, I will use characters from the Anime One Piece

LG: Smoker
NG: Nefertari Vivi
CG: Monkey D. Luffy
TN: Nico Robin
LN: Rob Lucci
CN: Nami
LE: Arlong
NE: Spandam (under the delusion that he is LG)
CE: Don Krieg

Chronos
2008-09-28, 06:42 PM
What has he [Jayne] done that doesn't fall under "go for the most money?"Double-crossing the Alliance mole who was trying to nab Mal in the pilot episode. Oh, wait, that shifts him in the other direction.

Meanwhile, to put betrayal into perspective... Suppose a special agent has managed to infiltrate a terrorist organization, and works himself into a position of trust. After getting a long list of contacts in the organization, goes to the authorities in his own country with the list and the organization's plans. The agent has undoubtedly betrayed the terrorists-- Has he done anything evil?

Riffington
2008-09-28, 07:33 PM
Suppose a special agent

Espionage for one's own home is not evil, chaotic, or betrayal. Nor is changing sides after a genuine crisis of conscience.

Traitors, on the other hand... see Dante for a description of what they deserve...

Demented
2008-09-28, 07:44 PM
Nor about sex with toddlers - but I assure you that is evil as well.

" 'Evil' implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. "

It's covered. Sorry.

Riffington
2008-09-28, 08:06 PM
Betrayal hurts.

Beleriphon
2008-09-28, 08:09 PM
Betrayal hurts.

So does a stubbed toe, but thats not what they mean and you know it.

Riffington
2008-09-28, 08:14 PM
Betrayal is a special harm. It is the harm one does to someone one has a special duty to.

Sex with toddlers may or may not harm the toddler. It is wrong either way. In fact, it is wrong precisely because it is a betrayal of the special duty we have to every child.

Chronos
2008-09-28, 08:36 PM
Espionage for one's own home is not evil, chaotic, or betrayal. Nor is changing sides after a genuine crisis of conscience.OK, then, replace the agent with a defector. Say, the sub captain in Hunt for Red October. Was it an evil act for him to turn his sub over to the Americans?

Betrayal is one of those things that nobody wants to happen to themselves, and everyone wants to happen to their enemies. The double standard is so strong that we have completely different words for exactly the same act, depending on whether we get the short end of the stick or the long one.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-09-28, 08:43 PM
I can say with little doubt that the best example of Lawful Good is Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson of various Discworld novels (particularly after his first appearance, when he has some hilarious but still dumb Lawful Stupid moments). But then again, his superior Commander Vimes is also pretty definitely Lawful Good and acts and thinks in an entirely different way (again, moreso after his first appearance). About the only similarity is their capacity for putting their job as cops ahead of their personal lives.

Alignment is silly, and should be ignored.

Calinero
2008-09-28, 09:12 PM
Betrayal by itself cannot said to be evil. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Betraying the CEO of a company because you discovered the company gives thousands of people cancer is not an evil act. Betraying a CEO to steal his business plan and bring his company to ruin for your own benefit is probably an evil thing to do. Betrayal is simply a weapon, it can be used for good and evil. It is definitely chaotic, though.

The_Snark
2008-09-28, 09:28 PM
Betrayal is simply a weapon, it can be used for good and evil. It is definitely chaotic, though.

Really? It's a classic in the Lawful Evil villain's arsenal, as seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). I suppose you could make the case that this is their self-interest (Evil) overcoming their sense of honor, but that implies that it's an evil act instead.


Alignment is silly, and should be ignored.

It makes perfect sense, as long as you don't think about it too much. That's my advice for using it.

Calinero
2008-09-28, 09:34 PM
Actually, Nale is not betraying his employer. He is keeping his contract with Xykon, who hired him to kill the Order of the Stick. Now, in this case, honoring the contract is actually more evil than breaking it would be, as the contract causes people to be harmed.

In something unrelated, what alignment would Rorschach from Watchmen be? Lawful...something? I honestly have no idea.

AstralFire
2008-09-28, 09:48 PM
I can say with little doubt that the best example of Lawful Good is Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson of various Discworld novels (particularly after his first appearance, when he has some hilarious but still dumb Lawful Stupid moments). But then again, his superior Commander Vimes is also pretty definitely Lawful Good and acts and thinks in an entirely different way (again, moreso after his first appearance).

Does he really? It's been well hinted that
When you get right down to it, Carrot is pretty manipulative and sneaky in his own way - he's aware of just how much of a curveball his linearity throws, and he's able to angle it subtly very well at times, like how he is pretty much the only person who can order Vetinari around.

Vimes I'd see as being a very Roy Lawful Good, in that he may act closer to NG at times, but he strongly believes in the importance of LG, even when he gets really pissed off about the restrictions it imposes.

Trizap
2008-09-28, 09:52 PM
let see, lets-a-see........

Alignments: Heroes version

Lawful Good: Nathan Petrelli, Ben Parker
Neutral Good: Hiro, Dr. Suresh
Chaotic Good: Peter Petrelli, Claire, Ando
Lawful Neutral: Mother Petrelli
True Neutral: H.R.G, gold-making guy, Micah
Chaotic Neutral: Nikki, Elle, D.J.
Lawful Evil: Linderman, Adam Monroe
Neutral Evil: Sylar
Chaotic Evil: Nightmare Man

these placements are not perfect; feel free to improve upon them

Trizap
2008-09-28, 09:53 PM
Actually, Nale is not betraying his employer. He is keeping his contract with Xykon, who hired him to kill the Order of the Stick. Now, in this case, honoring the contract is actually more evil than breaking it would be, as the contract causes people to be harmed.

In something unrelated, what alignment would Rorschach from Watchmen be? Lawful...something? I honestly have no idea.

either Chaotic Good (heavy emphasis on Chaotic) or Lawful Evil.

Knaight
2008-09-28, 09:56 PM
My list, from Deathnote:
LG-Detective Yagami
NG-Near
CG-Matsui
LN-L
N-The people from Sakura TV.
CN-Misa Amani(yes she killed people, but I really don't think she actually knew what she was doing. She was kind of stupid to say the least.)
LE-Light Yagami
NE-Most of the Yotsuba Group
CE-Mello

nobodylovesyou4
2008-09-28, 09:58 PM
blah blah Roark family...
assuming were talking about that same Roark family here, are youre sure theyre ALL CE? sure, they may be focused solely on getting themselves ahead, but i think the entire Roark family could be divided into the evils: Senator Roark would be LE, Cardinal Roark and Junior would be NE, and Kevin would be CE.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-28, 10:04 PM
My list, from Deathnote:
LG-Detective Yagami
NG-Near
CG-Matsui
LN-L
N-The people from Sakura TV.
CN-Misa Amani(yes she killed people, but I really don't think she actually knew what she was doing. She was kind of stupid to say the least.)
LE-Light Yagami
NE-Most of the Yotsuba Group
CE-Mello

For the most part I agree, but I think Near has the same alignment as L.

Knaight
2008-09-28, 10:09 PM
L is a little more willing to break the law and confine and interrogate people, not to mention pulling the stunt with Light's Father and the blank. If you're far enough into death note to know about Near, you know what I'm talking about.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-28, 10:39 PM
L is a little more willing to break the law and confine and interrogate people, not to mention pulling the stunt with Light's Father and the blank. If you're far enough into death note to know about Near, you know what I'm talking about.

Wait, if L is more willing to break the law, why is he Lawful, but Near isn't, I guess I could see Near as LG because Near is a bit of a better person than L, but I would think that if L was more willing to break the law than Near he (L) would be TN which I think fits better thematically as Near basicly says that his traits and Mellos traits combined would equal L's traits (LG+CE=TN).

Gavin Sage
2008-09-28, 10:50 PM
Why do people keep listing Superman as Lawful Good? I've never seen any espouse much of anything distinctly lawful. Let's not forget folks that Clark Kent is a reporter in his real life, and when not off saving cats from volcanoes has been known to do some serious investigative reporting. As for respect for authority two words: President Luthor. Further more Superman saves people because just because its the right thing to do. He's always lack more then a simple humble, I'm gonna help people ethic. Supes is not King Arthur, and only seems like a paladin because of the wide-spread tendency to tilt the grid toward LG on top, so exalted level good character get chucked in there.

Also people need to not over-analyse and recognize Batman is just Chaotic Good. Sure he has his principles and discipline, but his iconic modus operandi pretty much defines superhero vigilantism. Yeah there's all kinds of ways to analyse him, but when you the simplest explanation for say Batman directly defying Black Canary (current JLA leader) to her face to chase the Joker down and make her tougher by having her put up with a jerk.... doesn't demand elaborate philosophical justifications just that Batman is Chaotic Good.

Anyways my personal comic book character list:

Lawful Good: Captain America, Captain Atom
Neutral Good: Superman, Spider-man
Chaotic Good: Batman,

Lawful Neutral: Uatu, Amanda Waller
True Neutral: Galactus
Chaotic Neutral: Lobo, Punisher

Lawful Evil: Thanos, Lex Luthor
Neutral Evil: Mystique, Deadshot
Chaotic Evil: Joker, Annihilius

Knaight
2008-09-28, 11:05 PM
Wait, if L is more willing to break the law, why is he Lawful, but Near isn't, I guess I could see Near as LG because Near is a bit of a better person than L, but I would think that if L was more willing to break the law than Near he (L) would be TN which I think fits better thematically as Near basicly says that his traits and Mellos traits combined would equal L's traits (LG+CE=TN).

L is an incredibly organized, logical person. He plans way ahead, doesn't follow whim, but he does skirt laws. Near is a much nicer person than L, but he is somewhat less logical. There is no way L is nonlawful.

chiasaur11
2008-09-28, 11:06 PM
Why do people keep listing Superman as Lawful Good? I've never seen any espouse much of anything distinctly lawful. Let's not forget folks that Clark Kent is a reporter in his real life, and when not off saving cats from volcanoes has been known to do some serious investigative reporting. As for respect for authority two words: President Luthor. Further more Superman saves people because just because its the right thing to do. He's always lack more then a simple humble, I'm gonna help people ethic. Supes is not King Arthur, and only seems like a paladin because of the wide-spread tendency to tilt the grid toward LG on top, so exalted level good character get chucked in there.


I'd argue Pres. Luthor is the world's best example of the lawful. His worst enemy runs for (and becomes) President, and he doesn't stop him, just because it's against the law. If that ain't lawful, what is.

Draco Dracul
2008-09-28, 11:08 PM
L is an incredibly organized, logical person. He plans way ahead, doesn't follow whim, but he does skirt laws. Near is a much nicer person than L, but he is somewhat less logical. There is no way L is nonlawful.

You are make a very good argument.

Knaight
2008-09-28, 11:14 PM
You are make a very good argument.
Thats because all your base are belong to us. :smallwink:

Draco Dracul
2008-09-28, 11:24 PM
Thats because all your base are belong to us. :smallwink:

I really shouldn't be posting this late.

Chronos
2008-09-29, 12:02 AM
Also people need to not over-analyse and recognize Batman is just Chaotic Good.Part of the problem with assigning a single alignment to Batman is that he's been written by many different authors, who have given him many different personalities. Many of the incarnations of Batman are Chaotic Good, plain and simple, but many of them are LN, too, and you occasionally see a writer who depicts him as LG, LE, or CN.

Robin Hood, incidentally, has the same problem: Sometimes he steals from the rich to give to the poor, but sometimes he's supremely loyal to Richard the Lionhearted and only fights against the usurpers, and sometimes he steals purely for his own benefit and the only reason he targets the rich specifically is that they're the ones with the money.

Gavin Sage
2008-09-29, 12:13 AM
I'd argue Pres. Luthor is the world's best example of the lawful. His worst enemy runs for (and becomes) President, and he doesn't stop him, just because it's against the law. If that ain't lawful, what is.

It ain't lawful behavior because if America freely, and of its own will elects Lex Luthor as POTUS then it would be an extremely evil act to stop that through the powers availible to him. Deciding like that is tryanny in pure form. Superman is a good person, he can't do that and be who he is because it wouldn't be right. Therefore has is no evidence of lawful behavior. This doesn't stop the Man of Steel from defying Luthor when he tries to pull presidential authority and engineering a public confession bringing Luthor down. (Given that's with Batman's help...)

A more Lawful character might throw into the political ring themself to counter Luthor. Superman in his normal incarnation is Neutral Good. For constrast see him shifted into LG in the Elseworld Kingdom Come, with very mixed results. Or even further see Superman as LN/E in Red Son.

fusilier
2008-09-29, 12:22 AM
This doesn't really fit with the other examples here, but if any of your friends were forced to read Les Miserables in High School (like I was): Javert is the epitome of a Lawful Neutral character. He can't really comprehend how somebody who breaks the law (any law) can possibly be a good person. When shown mercy by the criminal he has been hunting for a long time, it causes such a moral dilemma that he takes his own life.

Of course any assignment is pretty subjective, but for most of the book Javert appears lawful neutral. By the end, you might be able to make an argument that he was actually lawful good -- he doesn't turn in Jean Valjean, because it wasn't the "right" thing to do, even if it was the lawful thing to do. Likewise, it could be argued that he broke his alignment which caused his suicide?

SeeKay
2008-09-29, 12:57 AM
It ain't lawful behavior because if America freely, and of its own will elects Lex Luthor as POTUS then it would be an extremely evil act to stop that through the powers availible to him. Deciding like that is tryanny in pure form. Superman is a good person, he can't do that and be who he is because it wouldn't be right. Therefore has is no evidence of lawful behavior. This doesn't stop the Man of Steel from defying Luthor when he tries to pull presidential authority and engineering a public confession bringing Luthor down. (Given that's with Batman's help...)

A more Lawful character might throw into the political ring themself to counter Luthor. Superman in his normal incarnation is Neutral Good. For constrast see him shifted into LG in the Elseworld Kingdom Come, with very mixed results. Or even further see Superman as LN/E in Red Son.

But Superman couldn't enter the political ring. He's not a "Natural born USA citizen". Because of his "Alien" status (very literal, in this case) he is denied the ability to legally run. If Supes was not "Lawful", he would ignore his status and try to win against Luthor. But he is SO Lawful that he not only doesn't enter, but lets the people make their choice according to law. Now, as a true LG, he worked within the law to legally remove Luthor from the seat. So Lawful Good still fits and fits well for Superman

Aquillion
2008-09-29, 06:30 AM
But Superman couldn't enter the political ring. He's not a "Natural born USA citizen". Because of his "Alien" status (very literal, in this case) he is denied the ability to legally run.They retconned that with his goddamn stupid "birthing matrix", didn't they?

I always thought that that was one of the most stupid and insulting retcons ever made (it used a particularly insultingly stupid way to eliminate one of the most interesting and deep aspects of Superman's character, the concept of him as an immigrant, by using a blatant cheat to try and make him a 'natural-born' citizen.) And I'd be happy to hear they finally came to their senses and pulled it back out again so he could remember Krypton a bit and actually have a hint of alien nature to him.

But I don't really expect them to do it...

Fishy
2008-09-29, 07:37 AM
Alignments: Heroes version

Lawful Good: Nathan Petrelli, Ben Parker
Neutral Good: Hiro, Dr. Suresh
Chaotic Good: Peter Petrelli, Claire, Ando
Lawful Neutral: Mother Petrelli
True Neutral: H.R.G, gold-making guy, Micah
Chaotic Neutral: Nikki, Elle, D.J.
Lawful Evil: Linderman, Adam Monroe
Neutral Evil: Sylar
Chaotic Evil: Nightmare Man

these placements are not perfect; feel free to improve upon them

I still say Sylar is LE. He thinks the world would be a better place if he were in charge of everything. He's 'arguably the most special person in the world'. He goes as far as to say that every time he kills someone, it's for a reason'. His power is to look into the human mind and see what makes it tick.

Also, Hiro is basically everything a Paladin ought to be.

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 08:59 AM
It ain't lawful behavior because if America freely, and of its own will elects Lex Luthor as POTUS then it would be an extremely evil act to stop that through the powers availible to him.

No, it would have been an illegal act, and a chaotic act to someone whose moral code involves abiding by all laws whenever possible. Throwing Luthor out would have been shortsighted, but not 'extremely evil.'

Pronounceable
2008-09-29, 09:30 AM
Bah, if he had any sense in that thick alien skull of his, Supey would've bashed Luthor's head in around 1945 (how many people have died because of Luthor over the decades?). Of course, same can be said about Batman and Joker but Joker's too awesome for that (not that I'm biased or anything...).

AstralFire
2008-09-29, 09:41 AM
Bah, if he had any sense in that thick alien skull of his, Supey would've bashed Luthor's head in around 1945 (how many people have died because of Luthor over the decades?). Of course, same can be said about Batman and Joker but Joker's too awesome for that (not that I'm biased or anything...).

Most of the big names in Superman's rogues' gallery are at least Just That Good to evade capture and he's killed three before when he had no other option available.

Joker and half of Batsy's gets to not be killed on "I'm CRAAAAAAAAAAZY!" 'Cuz that works for so many serial killers.

Duke of URL
2008-09-29, 09:44 AM
The problem with something like this is that each of the alignments really has two definitions, depending on which axis is more important to the character. For example, a LN more keyed on Law would be very much like Inspector Javert from Les Miserables -- he is the law (in his own eyes), and any practical consequences of that be damned. This would differ greatly from someone who is essentially individualistic (neither altruistic nor abusive), and who simply chooses lawful means to do achieve his goals. (Currently blanking on an example here.)

vegetalss4
2008-09-29, 10:03 AM
not sure about the rest but
CE superman Proof (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45)

oh and about the deathnote stuff miso was actuly not stupid, she just seems that way because everyone around her are geniuses

chiasaur11
2008-09-29, 11:25 AM
not sure about the rest but
CE superman Proof (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45)

oh and about the deathnote stuff miso was actuly not stupid, she just seems that way because everyone around her are geniuses

Pat Boone.

Stopping Pat Boone songs from being successful is also Lawful Good.

BadJuJu
2008-09-29, 11:42 AM
From pages 8-9 of Complete Scoundrel:

Scoundrels of Any Alignment:
Lawful Good: Batman, ((Richard)) Tracy, Indiana Jones
Lawful Neutral: James Bond, Odysseus, Sanjuro
Lawful Evil: Boba Fett, Magneto
Neutral Good: Zorro, Spider-Man
Neutral: Lara Croft, Han Solo (when he shot first,) Lucy Westerna
Neutral Evil: Mystique, Sawyer
Chaotic Good: Malcolm Reynolds, Starbuck, Robin Hood
Chaotic Neutral: Captain Jack Sparrow, Al Swearengen, Snake Plissken
Chaotic Evil: Carl Denham, Riddick

Riddick is more NE. He does everything for himself and doesnt care about anyone or anything.

Holocron Coder
2008-09-29, 11:57 AM
Because I had to:


http://www.icanhasforce.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/star-wars-lawful-evil.jpg


And because everything is more true if it has a demotivational.

Chronos
2008-09-29, 01:06 PM
They retconned that with his goddamn stupid "birthing matrix", didn't they?Yeah, even though I can think of at least three other ways to pull off the same effect without it being nearly as contrived.

First off, under current, real-world US law, a foundling of unknown origin is assumed to be a natural-born citizen of the place where he was found, and if that status isn't challenged within 18 years, it no longer can be challenged. Superman already meets this criterion, with no retconning necessary.

Second, they could have invoked an "ad caelum et ad infernos" theory of national territory, and calculated that at the moment of Kal-El's birth, Krypton was directly above the United States, making it technically US soil. This requires a minor ad-hoc introduction of fact, and relies on an overly-technical interpretation of law, but it doesn't contridict anything already in the comic canon or US law.

Third, they could have retconned the exact length of Superman's voyage, and said that he was born and launched before the adoption of the Constitution (relativistic effects prevented him from aging in those centuries). Then you just have to argue that he became a citizen upon launching (based on his act of emmigration), and he's not subject to the natural-born requirement.



The problem with something like this is that each of the alignments really has two definitions, depending on which axis is more important to the character.A good example of this is Redcloak vs. Kubota. Both are Lawful Evil, but they come at it from opposite directions: Redcloak has lawful goals, and uses evil means to accomplish them, while Kubota has evil goals, and uses lawful means to accomplish them.

Hzurr
2008-09-29, 02:29 PM
Javert is interesting, because he is LN, but believes himself to be LG. He thinks that by upholding the law to the letter, he is making society better, and making the world a better place. Unfortunately, since he refuses to acknowledge things like mercy or redemption, he places himself on the Neutral side, rather than the good. Furthermore, he believes that his way is the only way to have a functional society, and is intollerant of any other alignment/beliefs, further shifting him out of the "good" category. This is why
he commits suicide at the end of the book, because he recognized a clearly good act that didn't fit into his worldview, and couldn't rectify the two. The idea that his entire (in his eyes) LG worldview could not account for all good in the world was unbearable, and so he ended his life

Batman is interesting, and as was mentioned before, slightly shifts in alignment depending on who is writing him. While some variations like Red Son make him an anarchist CG character, others like Hush or Kingdom Come portray him as more LN (at one point in Hush, he actually states that "deep down, Clark is essentially a good person, and deep down, I'm not."; and in Kingdom Come, he's practically turned Gotham into a police state.)

Overall, I'd say he's LN, with an occational CG flair (which is ironic, because I consider myself CG with occational LN flairs)

Aquillion
2008-09-29, 04:52 PM
Yeah, even though I can think of at least three other ways to pull off the same effect without it being nearly as contrived.

First off, under current, real-world US law, a foundling of unknown origin is assumed to be a natural-born citizen of the place where he was found, and if that status isn't challenged within 18 years, it no longer can be challenged. Superman already meets this criterion, with no retconning necessary.

Second, they could have invoked an "ad caelum et ad infernos" theory of national territory, and calculated that at the moment of Kal-El's birth, Krypton was directly above the United States, making it technically US soil. This requires a minor ad-hoc introduction of fact, and relies on an overly-technical interpretation of law, but it doesn't contridict anything already in the comic canon or US law.

Third, they could have retconned the exact length of Superman's voyage, and said that he was born and launched before the adoption of the Constitution (relativistic effects prevented him from aging in those centuries). Then you just have to argue that he became a citizen upon launching (based on his act of emmigration), and he's not subject to the natural-born requirement.Or, fourth, the could have just had a constitutional amendment passed to remove the requirement. (They could even place it in the past if they don't want it to be passed purely for Superman.) I mean, in the real world people were discussing doing it for Arnold (at least before he pissed off the conservatives in his own party and ensured that he would never ever ever get the nomination, making it a moot point), so it's hardly a stretch to think that people would do it for Superman.

It's a kind of archaic requirement anyway; gathering public opinion to change it has never been hard. There just hasn't been a need until now.

Knaight
2008-09-29, 05:25 PM
not sure about the rest but
CE superman Proof (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=28&Itemid=45)

oh and about the deathnote stuff miso was actuly not stupid, she just seems that way because everyone around her are geniuses

Thats Matsuda. Although Misa made Matsuda seem like a genius, and Light isn't really all that bright anyways, he didn't think to use the deathnote nearly as strategically as you or I would.